Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Snowtoy]

A V-8 in my early Toyota trucks has always been a strong desire for me.  It's not just the power, it's the novelty.  And mostly the incredible sound of lopy cam'd V-8 at idle!!

Yes, not many sounds stir the emotions like a V8, but to me the package the sound is coming from is just as important, and the early gen Toy 4x4's,or 4x4's in general don't fit the sound in my opinion, just like Cadillacs or other sedans don't, be like hearing a Harley and seeing sports bike. 

I disagree with you that the truck with an aluminum block L33 swap would not be reliable.  Why would it not be reliable? 

Arguably, the GM LS engines are one of the very best (most reliable) V-8 engines every designed and manufactured by GM.

The mechanical side may be, but their electronics seem to be an issue, at least as far as my experience with GM products goes, as well as what I hear from my friends that run their own shops or are dealer service writers.

Regarding buying something else to take the place of a $10K swap is possible.  I don't want another 4x4 and I've owned two early Corvettes....  but things may change?

If that is what you would be after, then I use a 2wd 2nd gen Toyota, and building a sports truck/sleeper.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1359538-ls1-powered-98-toyota-tacoma-will-update-pics.html

A Toyota V8 swap is an option.

Can you point me to any links on a Toyota 4.7 engine swap in a 1986 Toyota truck?

Who sources the Toy engine to transmission adapters?

This should start you on that path.
http://northwesttoysllc.com/1uz-2/

Here's the big question..... how can I get a Toyota V8 engine to sound like cam'd GM LS engine?

Gnarls.

Likely not, but it will likely sound as mean as any other modern oem stock V8 w/exhaust upgrade.

 

[toyodaaddict]

Hey Gnarly, sorry to see your rebuild come to this. You sure did your part trying to build the motor right.

If a swap is now being entertained I am with the 3RZ guys. You can buy the parts (wiring included) to make it a bolt in swap. They fit good in the engine compartment. Cleaner looking than a 22re (very few vacuum lines). Better gas milage.  It will probably feel like a v8 with 31's and your trans, tcase and axles (ring/pinion) can handle it.

I have always understood that when swapping to a v8 or even a 6cyl, that you need a transmission and axles that can backup that power. I think it would be asking a lot for a w56 and toy 8" to hold up long term to a v8 even with 31'' tire.

No first hand experience here but I think those are things to consider. Good luck

[300k]

I'm with toyodaaddict. I'd be looking to integrate whichever trans came behind the swap engine or at least something beefy. What makes Toyotas so great is the oversized, over built drivetrain components. When you're shoe horning a 450HP engine into a poor lil toyota, I'd think it would be fragile as glass. maybe an automatic/manual valve body set up on a GM auto would be cool

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey Gnarly, sorry to see your rebuild come to this. You sure did your part trying to build the motor right.

If a swap is now being entertained I am with the 3RZ guys. You can buy the parts (wiring included) to make it a bolt in swap. They fit good in the engine compartment. Cleaner looking than a 22re (very few vacuum lines). Better gas milage.  It will probably feel like a v8 with 31's and your trans, tcase and axles (ring/pinion) can handle it.

I have always understood that when swapping to a v8 or even a 6cyl, that you need a transmission and axles that can backup that power. I think it would be asking a lot for a w56 and toy 8" to hold up long term to a v8 even with 31'' tire.

No first hand experience here but I think those are things to consider. Good luck

Hey t,

Thank you for your input.  Yeah... I need to look into that swap. I know that it's a popular option and it seems to have a happy ending most of time.  I will do some research on that.  And... I assume I can mate one with my W56 tranny, and I would not have to do any upgrades for the extra power over a 22RE.  Seems like an easy swap.  What kind of tuning or maintenance knowledge is required?  The 22s are pretty simple. 

Will my stock A/C hook up without radical modification?

Gotta have A/C here!

Gnarls.

[toyodaaddict]

Hey t,

Thank you for your input.  Yeah... I need to look into that swap. I know that it's a popular option and it seems to have a happy ending most of time.  I will do some research on that.  And... I assume I can mate one with my W56 tranny, and I would not have to do any upgrades for the extra power over a 22RE.  Seems like an easy swap.  What kind of tuning or maintenance knowledge is required?  The 22s are pretty simple. 

Will my stock A/C hook up without radical modification?

Gotta have A/C here!


Gnarls.

To mate the W56 to the 3rz you use a 3rz bell housing, it bolts right onto the w56. Off the top of my head I can not recall which clutch parts you use. Yep, you will still be Toyota reliable with a 3rz and your w56 and axles.
These links will get you started http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19275.0  and  https://www.toyonlyswaps.com/

My understanding is that the 3rz is as simple and reliable as a 22re, if not more so. I do know that the valves use shims for adjustment. That seems more complicated to me. Probably because I'm not familiar with it. The 3rz has balance shafts. I don't believe they require any maintenance, some people eliminate them with a kit from LCE.

For the A/C I know that you use the 3rz a/c pump and connect it to your factory stuff.  I don't think there is anything to crazy involved.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

To mate the W56 to the 3rz you use a 3rz bell housing, it bolts right onto the w56. Off the top of my head I can not recall which clutch parts you use. Yep, you will still be Toyota reliable with a 3rz and your w56 and axles.
These links will get you started http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19275.0  and  https://www.toyonlyswaps.com/

My understanding is that the 3rz is as simple and reliable as a 22re, if not more so. I do know that the valves use shims for adjustment. That seems more complicated to me. Probably because I'm not familiar with it. The 3rz has balance shafts. I don't believe they require any maintenance, some people eliminate them with a kit from LCE.

For the A/C I know that you use the 3rz a/c pump and connect it to your factory stuff.  I don't think there is anything to crazy involved.

Hey thanks!!  Great info.  So.... I assume I have to pull out my 22RE wire harness and install the donor wire harness?

I believe for emissions I have to use the donor stuff.

I'll do more research and see what I come up with.

Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

Given how clean the truck is, along with the rapidly increasing value of stock Toys from the '80's, swapping in any engine is a mistake, I would just figure out what went wrong with the rebuild, and fix it, then decide to keep it or sell it and find something to do restore/mod, likely end up money ahead.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Given how clean the truck is, along with the rapidly increasing value of stock Toys from the '80's, swapping in any engine is a mistake, I would just figure out what went wrong with the rebuild, and fix it, then decide to keep it or sell it and find something to do restore/mod, likely end up money ahead.

I vote sell it to BestGen for one hell of a good price.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Given how clean the truck is, along with the rapidly increasing value of stock Toys from the '80's, swapping in any engine is a mistake, I would just figure out what went wrong with the rebuild, and fix it, then decide to keep it or sell it and find something to do restore/mod, likely end up money ahead.

Hey S,

Yes, agree.  That is precisely why I have been doing my best to keep it original.  And, yes I believe it will have a greater value to someone because it is in original condition, including the engine.  It is in extremely good condition, and appears to be all original.  My intention is to restore it and limit the drive time to keep the mileage down.

At this point, I'm leaning towards having Jim at 22RE Performance build me a 22RE long block.  When I started the rebuild I didn't think it would be that difficult to rebuild one, especially considering the reputation of the sources and services I used, and my automechanic skills.

From my experience, there is a lot of planning, knowledge, skills, machining, and careful parts selection that goes into the entire process of SUCCESSFULLY rebuilding one of engines that will go 200K to 300K miles.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

 and my automechanic skills?  Gnarly  Me

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

and my automechanic skills?  Gnarly  Me

Hey bg,

When I started the project, I thought I had at least "average" DIYer automechanic skills.  At this point, I have re-evaluated my skills.

Yeah... my long time comment describing those who I meet or know, mostly my experience in the 4-wheeling community, continues to be factual... 

There are those who think they know their shait. 
There are those who don't know shait. 
And, there are those who really know their shait. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I vote sell it to BestGen for one hell of a good price.

What is "one hell of a good price"? 

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein]

Physics police here: I've seen many, many, compression numbers thrown around lately, but no altitude mentioned. What elevation are you at Gnarls? As you righthly pointed out once, compression numbers without elevation attached are much less meaningful.

I'm sorry your rebuild has gone west like this. You could tear it down, evaluate what went wrong, and use your lessons from rebuild #1 to make #2 go smoother. Just a thought.

[:)bestgen4runner]

What is "one hell of a good price"? 

Gnarls.

$5000

[emsvitil]

What work did you do on the engine, and what work was done by a machine shop?

(I rebuilt a 20R decades ago,   Machine shop did crank/rod work and basic block work (surface, hone).   I did everything else)

[Snowtoy]

At this point, I'm leaning towards having Jim at 22RE Performance build me a 22RE long block.  When I started the rebuild I didn't think it would be that difficult to rebuild one, especially considering the reputation of the sources and services I used, and my automechanic skills.

From my experience, there is a lot of planning, knowledge, skills, machining, and careful parts selection that goes into the entire process of SUCCESSFULLY rebuilding one of engines that will go 200K to 300K miles.

Gnarls.

Well, until you find out what was is actually wrong it is impossible to say who or what is at fault.  If could be bad set of new seals, bad rigs, poor machine work, etc., If you are lucky and it is seals or rings, no need in having someone rebuild it, as there is no enough wear yet to warrant it, just fix the issue and go.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Well, until you find out what was is actually wrong it is impossible to say who or what is at fault.  If could be bad set of new seals, bad rigs, poor machine work, etc., If you are lucky and it is seals or rings, no need in having someone rebuild it, as there is no enough wear yet to warrant it, just fix the issue and go.

Hey S,

Yep… I am anxious find out what happened and why.  As far as "no need to rebuild it", the engine will most likely need to be pulled and disassembled.  I want a pro to totally inspect the entire engine to get the results.

Just my thoughts…

I could remove the head and check it. I’d be very surprised if the valves are the issue without having any visible smoke. 

At that point I could mic the cylinders (bore gauge) and possibly measure piston to cylinder wall, piston-head clearance.  I don’t know how I could determine if the rings are the issue without pulling the pistons, without pulling the engine, means I believe I’d have to drop the front axle to drop the pan to remove the rod cap.

If I pull and disassemble the engine, and I do it myself, I would completely rebuild it with every part inspected and new parts used if necessary, and I would buy new pistons and rings from a recommended top manufacturer. I would have the block checked for all measurements and determine if it had to be bored or honed, and verify correct crosshatching and RA .

I’d probably buy a new rocker rack and install and brand new camshaft.

In other words, I’d rebuild, or have it rebuilt it correctly so it would go 250k or 300k miles.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Pull the engine out. It doesn't take that long to do and everything is so easy once out and on an engine stand. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Pull the engine out. It doesn't take that long to do and everything is so easy once out and on an engine stand. 

That's a BIG 10-4!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE 1-11-2019

22RE rebuild – 150,748 miles.

I adjusted the valve lash and changed spark plugs.  There were several exhaust valves a little tight.  I adjusted the lash to the 261C cam spec 7 and 9. 

I replaced the copper plugs with about 25,000 miles on them - they looked really good - with a set of NGK BPR5EYs that only had about 50 miles on them.  Truck ran great.  Rocker noise was balanced and sounded normal.  After a quick test drive - tach’d it up to 5K a couple times – I parked the truck for about 5 hours. Went out to move it and it had a misfire!!  WTF-O!!   

I pulled the plugs.  All looked good. I pulled each plug wire to see if I determine which cylinder was not happy.  Number 1 cylinder was not happy.  It was getting good spark.  Is it a fuel/injector issue?  Is it something to do with valves? No check engine light.  I am bummed and getting so discouraged with this engine rebuild. 

I don't think I've done anything lately to pi$$ off the Toyota Gods? 

I will pull the rocker cover and re-check the valve lash.

I have a bad feeling about this head from engnbldr, and I know it is not normal to have the exhaust valves go tight in 3K or 4K miles.    I'm also not sure that Mama ECU likes this 261C cam?

Suggestions or comments will be appreciated. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE 1-14-2019

Did a compression check after re-checking valve lash. Valve lash is OK.

Compression test:  #1 33 lbs.,  #2 65 lbs., #3 155 lbs, #4 150 lbs.  I guess that explains the misfire.. not enough compression.

I will do a leak down test this week end to if I can determine if its valves or pistons.

I'll park it and probably wait to save up some money to buy a long block from 22RE Performance.   

If its the valves, I could have the head rebuilt, but I'd still be having the oil consumption issue that its had since I rebuilt it about 16,000 miles ago. 

Looks like I will be pulling the engine again. 

I'm definitely NOT and engine builder. 

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Did You adjust and check the valves by the book or on the back side of each lobe?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Did You adjust and check the valves by the book or on the back side of each lobe?

Yes I tried it and checked it both ways

[:)bestgen4runner]

Yes I tried it and checked it both ways

I think You did something wrong. back off all the rockers to out of spec loose. Then reperform the comp test. See what You get then.
I find it hard to believe that two cyl. have dropped compression after a test drive. Logic tells Me Gnarly touched something and caused a problem. Again.....

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I think You did something wrong. back off all the rockers to out of spec loose. Then reperform the comp test. See what You get then.
I find it hard to believe that two cyl. have dropped compression after a test drive. Logic tells Me Gnarly touched something and caused a problem. Again.....

Hey bgen.... as always I appreciate your input.

Geezz... I wish you were right on.  But I have a gut feeling that there is definitely some mechanical failure either in the head, valves, or pistons.  If a head gasket failed I should be able to see some indications.

I understand the reason to do a compression test with the rockers loose and no chance for a cam lobe to open a valve.  I'm pretty sure I'm going to see the exact same results.  Number 1 cylinder has been low from the beginning of my rebuild - just not THAT low.

I will see if I have time to do a leak down test this coming week end.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Update:  February 2, 2019

Test results:

Compression – engine warmed to normal running temp, plugs removed, throttle wide open, injector fuse pulled, coil wire pulled.

#1 = 33 lbs.
#2 = 65 lbs.
#3 = 155 lbs.
#4 = 150 lbs.

Leak Down test – piston TDC per cylinder, at firing order.  Gauge PSI @ 75 PSI

#1 = 11 PSI -  leak % = 85% - air leaking out exhaust
#2 = 13 PSI -  leak % = 83% - air leaking out exhaust
#3 = 64 PSI – leak % = 15% - pushed coolant out radiator filler, no bubbles detected, air leaking out rocker cover
#4 = 42 PSI  - leak % = 44% - air leaking out rocker cover

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

sO yOU  hAVE
cYL#1 hUGE lEAK oUT THE eXHAUST vALVE
cYL#2 HuGE lEAk OuT tHE EXHAUST vALVE
Cyl#3 WoRn rINgs AND a bLOWn hEAD GASKET
Cyl#4 bAD RINGS

hARd tO bELiEVE IT
I'm sURPRISEd It eVEn rAN

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

You ever rotate the engine over while feeling the valve lash across the entire circumference of the suspective valve, especially at tdc?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

You ever rotate the engine over while feeling the valve lash across the entire circumference of the suspective valve, especially at tdc?

Hey E.... OK... I apologize....  I'm not sure I understand what you are asking?  Feeling... so while someone is rotating the engine - by hand?  Like that slow.. or do I rotate the engine with the starter?  How do I feel the "valve lash across the entire circumference of the suspected valve" at TDC? 

So I feel the rocker as the cam rotates completely around from the bottom of the base circle around ramp over the cam lobe and back around to the  bottom of the base circle - one complete revolution of the camshaft?

Is that to detect a bent valve stem?

I've never done that.

Gnarls.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

"So I feel the rocker as the cam rotates completely around from the bottom of the base circle around the to base circle - one complete revolution of the camshaft?"  Yes, if you take the valve cover off again it wouldnt hurt.  Yes crank engine over by hand.  Aftermarket cams are weird.  Ive seen alot of weird high and low spots in cam lobes.  I always try to adjust to the highest spot of the lobe where there isnt supposed to be lift.  Just see if its too tight when its not supoosed to be.  Also, u have adjustable timing gear?  Make sure it hasnt moved...