Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 173520 times)

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EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1800 on: Feb 10, 2019, 05:57:14 PM »
Im all about machining block w/timing cover and cylinder surfaces with proper RA finish and using mls gasket

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1801 on: Feb 10, 2019, 06:32:03 PM »
Sorry Gnarls, sounds like you've got the royal flush, 1&2 burnt or bent valves or bad valve seats.  Numbers 3 blown head gasket to coolant and oil & 4 blown head gasket to oil passage.  rings may be involved, but I'm betting not.  Keep us informed.  Sorry for your continued bad luck.  I've used Fel-pro gaskets top to bottom on my last three builds with no probs, "your experience may vary" as I always say.  Do what works for you.  Good luckon the next rendition.   :twocents:   :biggthumpup:

Hey S...

Thanks... Yeah... I'd use Fel-Pro all day long!  Cometic MLS of course.  Toyota factory OEM is very popular.  I trusted Tod's experience and product sources.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1802 on: Feb 10, 2019, 06:38:44 PM »
Im all about machining block w/timing cover and cylinder surfaces with proper RA finish and using mls gasket

Hey E...

This is something I can highly recommend to be carefully considered in a rebuild!!  I will never 100% trust the machine work without witnessing the measurements and have a thorough understanding of the entire processing of the block.  I'm not saying the machine work is bad, I don't know.  But if I had checked everything they did, including the RA I'd feel way better now.

If the block is NOT right, the rest of the rebuild is NOT going to be right.

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 03:32:43 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1803 on: Feb 11, 2019, 03:54:30 AM »
...
I pulled the heads to have hardened valve seats installed. This was a common job back when I was a rookie.
The machine shop set one of the valve guides to tight. After a week It stuck the valve long enough for the piston to come up smack it.

Hi bgen...  I am VERY familiar with the "sounds" of the 3 22s I've owned and worked on.  What you described is something that sounded like what was happening when I fired the engine.  The sound was like #1 or #2 piston was smacking a valve.

Hopefully I will know when I pull the head..

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1804 on: Feb 11, 2019, 03:01:57 PM »
Sorry to hear about your troubles, you didn't deserve that. I think that determining the extent of the damage, then the cause of the failure(s), would be a good 1-2 step before making the rebuild plan. Until then it is all speculation and nothing to be learned. Don't give up!

P.S. I am using engnbldr's oversize 20r stainless steel valves on stock cam. It has been 4 years, about 25 000kms, on its 3rd short block now on stock cam. It sees 5k rpms on every drive, has started in -25 and has run to 240f many times. Valves have never gone tight, and my stock toyota cam doesn't align very well with the rockers either.
« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 03:07:42 PM by Gillesdetrail »

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1805 on: Feb 11, 2019, 04:22:36 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1806 on: Feb 11, 2019, 05:41:58 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly. 

Worth more than 2 cents....

If I had purchased a head and the camshaft from two different sources, I could understand a possible issue with clearances... BUT... Tod at engnbldr knew exactly what I was rebuilding and he, I assume, installed their 261C cam into the DNJ head.

Of course, I would have had conversations with all sources to make sure I was buying exactly what was required or spec'd.

QUESTION:  How many "things" can change that will cause the valve lash to go tight by .001" to .003" in 600 to 800 miles after a very accurate and proper valve lash adjustment was performed?

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 05:49:36 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1807 on: Feb 11, 2019, 05:45:19 PM »
... Until then it is all speculation and nothing to be learned. Don't give up!

Hey G...

Thank you.   Yes... I gotta get the head off and see, then go from there.

I'm happy to read that you have had good luck with engnbldr's product, as has probably many many other Toyota owner's out there.  I may be the unlucky one to got that rare defective set of parts?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1808 on: Feb 11, 2019, 06:06:24 PM »
 
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:

Per my specs, the gross valve lift for a factory stock cam is .385" for Intake, and .398" for Exhaust.  The 261C is spec'd at .410" for both valves, max gross lift.  That is only .012" more lift.  Would that be enough to possibly cause the top of the valve to contact the piston? Assuming the cam profile for each lobe was absolutely accurate to spec?  :dunno:



The block was decked .006".

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1809 on: Feb 12, 2019, 09:33:15 AM »

Per my specs, the gross valve lift for a factory stock cam is .385" for Intake, and .398" for Exhaust.  The 261C is spec'd at .410" for both valves, max gross lift.  That is only .012" more lift.  Would that be enough to possibly cause the top of the valve to contact the piston? Assuming the cam profile for each lobe was absolutely accurate to spec?  :dunno:



The block was decked .006".

Gnarls.

Any chance the block was decked .060 and there was a typo/miscommunication somewhere along the way?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1810 on: Feb 12, 2019, 12:10:31 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:

With 270 cam with .430 lift that my brother has (which is the maximum lift for stock valve springs) and decked .007 the valves still clear, these are interference engines which means that if a valve gets stuck open it will hit the piston even on a stock cam.

If working properly the valves are not all the way open when the piston is up, machining them so that the valves clear while they are all the way open and the piston is at TDC will drop the compression, you have to rotate the cam and the crank in time with each other to get an accurate measurement so you don't end up cutting such a large unnecessary pocket that your engine runs like crap
« Last Edit: Feb 12, 2019, 12:16:02 PM by toyoboy »
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1811 on: Feb 12, 2019, 12:52:39 PM »
It's possible You may have floated a valve with that "tached up to 5K" driving.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1812 on: Feb 12, 2019, 03:35:48 PM »
your springs might be weak :heavy: and with such a short duration cam at 5k weak springs would cause the valves to float like bestgen said.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1813 on: Feb 12, 2019, 04:54:42 PM »
But doesn't the EB head/cam combo come with new HD springs  :dunno:

CB

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1814 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:26:09 PM »
Any chance the block was decked .060 and there was a typo/miscommunication somewhere along the way?

No chance.  I checked the piston/deck height with Tod on the telephone with me, and it was in spec.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1815 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:27:23 PM »
But doesn't the EB head/cam combo come with new HD springs  :dunno:

CB

Yes... supposedly all new.  I don't know what valve spring pressure are, or whether they are referred to as HD or heavy duty?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1816 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:33:01 PM »
your springs might be weak :heavy: and with such a short duration cam at 5k weak springs would cause the valves to float like bestgen said.

I can see it's possible, but I've "floated" valves before in other engines.  I have never detected valve float in any of the 22s I've owned.  I ran the sand dunes in my 85 22R at least 3 times, my 86 longbed 22RE automatic at least 2 times, and I was at 5,000 and 5,500 RPMs all day, and sometimes hit 6,000 RPMs.... never once did the engine misfire or act like a valve floated. My 1985 was a stock rebuilt head with a Toyota stock 22R cam.  I did cross-country Mexico through the giant sand dunes out to the beach, and ran it 5,000+ all the time.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1817 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:44:30 PM »
I can see it's possible, but I've "floated" valves before in other engines.  I have never detected valve float in any of the 22s I've owned.  I ran the sand dunes in my 85 22R at least 3 times, my 86 longbed 22RE automatic at least 2 times, and I was at 5,000 and 5,500 RPMs all day, and sometimes hit 6,000 RPMs.... never once did the engine misfire or act like a valve floated. My 1985 was a stock rebuilt head with a Toyota stock 22R cam.  I did cross-country Mexico through the giant sand dunes out to the beach, and ran it 5,000+ all the time.

Gnarls.
Just an FYI
That's way to high of RPM for this engine. It makes no extra power up there. You are just reving the :pokinit: out of it.
I don't think I have ever taken My currant engine past 4k rpm.
Look at You desk top dyno. power drops off before that hi of RPM.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1818 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:49:11 PM »
Yes... supposedly all new.  I don't know what valve spring pressure are, or whether they are referred to as HD or heavy duty?

Gnarls.

Right and i didn't mean to suggest that they were made for higher revving just that they were at least new and not old and worn out.
Remember I have this setup so I'm watching.

I will say I don't rev my toyotas too much but who knows what I will do/need someday.  I do try to baby my vehicles though.

CB

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1819 on: Feb 12, 2019, 06:49:06 PM »
Just an FYI
That's way to high of RPM for this engine. It makes no extra power up there. You are just reving the :pokinit: out of it.
I don't think I have ever taken My currant engine past 4k rpm.
Look at You desk top dyno. power drops off before that hi of RPM.

I will run 4,000 rpm on mountain grades and only push to 4,500 rpm if it’s necessary to be able to hold the next gear.  I don’t think I have ever been to 5,000 rpm, but have been told there is a rev limiter up there somewhere.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1820 on: Feb 12, 2019, 07:58:16 PM »
If your hitting the rev limiter your doing something wrong or your name is Dingman.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1821 on: Feb 12, 2019, 08:03:30 PM »
Stock peak HP is at 4800

Redline is 5600 or 5800.   Never went high enough to hit a rev limiter.


I've held 5200 up hills towing a trailer...…..
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1822 on: Feb 13, 2019, 04:39:10 AM »
I realize what the numbers say about peak torque and HP, and peak RPMs.

I have always been an RPM-junky… since my early Chevy small block days!  It is funny to me how many times I’ve discussed these engines and RPMs and ridden in someone’s 22R/RE and noticed that the driver didn’t rev the engine to the RPMs that I do.  Sometimes they just lugged it around.  I took a young guy that had a really nice 85 22R in an Xtracab for a ride in my 85, he actually believed and said  “you are going to blow your engine!”, when I tach’d it through the gears to 5,000 RPMs through 3rd gear.

I am also somewhat of a “tweaker tuner” (like H8PVMNT), I always spend extra time to keep my engines well tuned.

I didn’t know that these engines have a “rev limiter”?

Yes, after 4,800 RPMs the torque curve is already dropping and the HP is flattening.

When I say 5,000 or 5,500, I don’t mean sustained.  I mean I’d hit that RPM and quickly shift or back off.  Like emsvitil said, I have driven my 22s at high RPM for 4 to 5 minutes, like climbing a steep grade at 4,000.  I have very rarely driven at over 5,000 for a sustained time.

I also ran my 22R at the Cinders here in Northern AZ… lots of 5,000+ RPMs.

Everyone’s experiences and driving styles can be different…

So, for my experience, if high RPMs on these engines (now 3 22s) was going to cause me to have an engine failure issue, I would have experienced it in 1986 with my first 22RE.

I may be wrong, and if someone out there has more experience please let me know, but if my current engine failure was caused by revving it to 5,000+, something is wrong with the parts, build, or machine work.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1823 on: Feb 13, 2019, 04:41:23 AM »
If your hitting the rev limiter your doing something wrong or your name is Dingman.

Dinger..... I'm your BRO!!  :gap:

Gnarls.  :driving:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1824 on: Feb 13, 2019, 08:00:38 AM »
Your other 22r engine were stock? With stock cam and pistons?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1825 on: Feb 13, 2019, 10:44:12 AM »
I agree that the upgraded cam profile will change the efficiency of the stock springs, and valves will float earlier in the RPM range, this is a very soft aftermakret cam though. Oversized valves are heavier and will affect the rpm at which valves float too. My opinion is that the engine will usually stop revving when the valves float before the valves hit the pistons unless the clearance is very tight to begin with, or revved with no load. The 22re rev limiter is also quite low at around 5800rpms I believe? Engnbldr has built and sold thousands of heads like yours, it must be expected some people will buy these heads and run them for competition or mudding or whatever that will see sustained high revs and abuse. A margin of safety is built into them I am sure, if the machining is done correctly. If the engine ran well before the first high rpm pull, then ran like crap after that, it would be a logical cause, but I don't think that is the case. I believe it is a machining error(s). And while we are speculating, I'll even go on a limb and say that the block is fine and all the trouble is in the head. Get it off and send it out for inspection first.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1826 on: Feb 13, 2019, 06:16:54 PM »
Your other 22r engine were stock? With stock cam and pistons?


Yes.  Both - my first 1986 22RE and my 1985 22R.
« Last Edit: Feb 13, 2019, 06:55:39 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1827 on: Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:21 PM »
I agree that the upgraded cam profile will change the efficiency of the stock springs, and valves will float earlier in the RPM range, this is a very soft aftermakret cam though. Oversized valves are heavier and will affect the rpm at which valves float too. My opinion is that the engine will usually stop revving when the valves float before the valves hit the pistons unless the clearance is very tight to begin with, or revved with no load. The 22re rev limiter is also quite low at around 5800rpms I believe? Engnbldr has built and sold thousands of heads like yours, it must be expected some people will buy these heads and run them for competition or mudding or whatever that will see sustained high revs and abuse. A margin of safety is built into them I am sure, if the machining is done correctly. If the engine ran well before the first high rpm pull, then ran like crap after that, it would be a logical cause, but I don't think that is the case. I believe it is a machining error(s). And while we are speculating, I'll even go on a limb and say that the block is fine and all the trouble is in the head. Get it off and send it out for inspection first.

Hey G...

I agree with everything you said, however, I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

And I too think that I'm going to find something in the head/valves.  My gut keeps telling me its the length of the valve stems and/or the valve seats.

I will pull the head and get it into someone I trust can give me a quality inspection and diagnosis.

QUESTION:  Could the valves/guides, seals, seat have caused the 1 quart of oil burning in 600 miles.  I had not blow-by, no smoke at cold or warm start.  I have tach'd this engine up to 5,500 RPM at least a 12 times in 1st gear.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1828 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:23:32 PM »
Here's my off-the-wall thinking....

According to the FSM, the valve length of the intake is: 4.468"
The exhaust is: 4.480"

That is .012" difference.

Is it possible that the valves were switched without being noticed?

Or... the valve stem length was wrong?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1829 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:28:38 PM »
Here's my off-the-wall thinking....

According to the FSM, the valve length of the intake is: 4.468"
The exhaust is: 4.480"

That is .012" difference.

Is it possible that the valves were switched without being noticed?

Or... the valve stem length was wrong?

Gnarls.
The valves are completely different sizes. Not possible
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

 
 
 
 
 

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