Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188973 times)

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:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1680 on: Aug 14, 2018, 08:15:17 AM »
Back all Your rocker arms way off  (way loose) and do the compression test again.
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1681 on: Aug 14, 2018, 08:37:42 AM »
Back all Your rocker arms way off  (way loose) and do the compression test again.


Hmmm.... OK, that means all the valves will remain closed, right?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1682 on: Aug 14, 2018, 03:23:08 PM »
Strange how spark plug 1 and 4 look the same, and not much different to 2 & 3, from what I can see from my laptop screen. And not that bad for that oil comsuption. Do you have a lot of blowby from the pcv vent on the valve cover? With the fact that the wet compression test showed only a 4 psi difference in cyl num 1, my uneducated guess is that the issue is in the head not the rings. And I think bestgen meant leak down test.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1683 on: Aug 14, 2018, 08:57:34 PM »
Poor Gnarls, I wish u were closer, I'd love to help u out.  When u adjust your valves, do u follow the FSM on engine position?  I strongly recommend you disregard it and adjust each rocker arm with the peak of the cam lobe 180 degrees from the contact pad of the rocker. Aftermarket cams are regrinds with different clocking (duration ect) and typically will throw off your valve adjustments...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1684 on: Aug 15, 2018, 05:34:22 AM »
Poor Gnarls, I wish u were closer, I'd love to help u out.  When u adjust your valves, do u follow the FSM on engine position?  I strongly recommend you disregard it and adjust each rocker arm with the peak of the cam lobe 180 degrees from the contact pad of the rocker. Aftermarket cams are regrinds with different clocking (duration ect) and typically will throw off your valve adjustments...

Are you saying that the valve adjustment could be his issue?
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1685 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:07:19 AM »
Are you saying that the valve adjustment could be his issue?

Hi BD,

The valves seals could cause excessive oil consumption.  However, usually if the seals or guides are bad, I should be seeing some kind of oil smoke, especially with the amount of consumption.  I cannot see any smoke!! It appears that the engine is literally burning the oil/fuel mixture.  But... I would defer to someone with more experience than I have to explain why there is no smoke, and why the spark plugs are looking very clean.  :dunno:

Gnarls.   :inthedark:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1686 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:11:45 AM »
Not quite.  Right now I see 2 different issues, oil consumption and low compression. If they are to be hand in hand it's best if he proves all he can through testing/elimination cause next step sounds like tear down.  I'm just trying to give my best recommendation, assisting diagnosis of a vehicle online is alot like holding your phone to an engine and asking your friend if he can tell u what's wrong, lol.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1687 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:20:13 AM »
Poor Gnarls, I wish u were closer, I'd love to help u out.  When u adjust your valves, do u follow the FSM on engine position?  I strongly recommend you disregard it and adjust each rocker arm with the peak of the cam lobe 180 degrees from the contact pad of the rocker. Aftermarket cams are regrinds with different clocking (duration ect) and typically will throw off your valve adjustments...

Hey E,

Thanks, yeah if I were closer I'd definitely take anyone up on some input on this.

I have adjusted the valve lash both ways a number times.  I cannot see how this will have any affect on the oil consumption?  I do understand that a common way to adjust valve lash is to rotate the cam to the bottom of the  base circle or heel (opposite of the peak of the lobe-nose), so any ramp on the profile will not affect the correct lash reading.

The valve lash *could* affect the compression reading, due to some overlap in the profile.  AND... this 261C Crawler cam does have more overlap than most aftermarket 22 cams that I've seen.  It also has a tight valve lash spec at .007" & .009".

I don't see how the cam or valve events would cause excessive oil consumption?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1688 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:29:09 AM »
Strange how spark plug 1 and 4 look the same, and not much different to 2 & 3, from what I can see from my laptop screen. And not that bad for that oil comsuption. Do you have a lot of blowby from the pcv vent on the valve cover? With the fact that the wet compression test showed only a 4 psi difference in cyl num 1, my uneducated guess is that the issue is in the head not the rings. And I think bestgen meant leak down test.

Hey G,

I can't see any smoke, no blow-by.  After driving, engine hot, when I pull the oil dip stick I can hear pressure releasing, so I know there is air pressure in the crankcase and oil pan.  I think the amount of air pressure is not normal.  I don't see or hear any excessive blow by out the PVC valve, tubing, or rocker cover gasket.

The tail pipe is black, and not a grayish color, so I see there is probably excessive carbon in the exhaust.

Yes, I am puzzled by the clean plugs. I would think I'd see more carbon build up, and even pre-fouling.  They are absolutely clean!  Just a very tiny look into number 1 cylinder through the spark plug hole looks like the top of the piston is carbon'd up... I don't know if it is excessive or normal.  Only an complete engine tear-down and inspection will give me the answers.  :disturbed:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1689 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:36:02 AM »
Not quite.  Right now I see 2 different issues, oil consumption and low compression. If they are to be hand in hand it's best if he proves all he can through testing/elimination cause next step sounds like tear down.  I'm just trying to give my best recommendation, assisting diagnosis of a vehicle online is alot like holding your phone to an engine and asking your friend if he can tell u what's wrong, lol.

Some years ago, someone on Pirate posted a comment while the thread was trying to analyze a problem.... "Diagnosing engine sounds over the internet is like sniffing flowers through your butt".... LOL...

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1690 on: Aug 15, 2018, 07:43:26 AM »
As far as the fuel mixture and the amount oil being burned.....  The oil consumption is about 1/2 of a quart approximately every tank full of gas.. about 600 miles per quart.

So if I were to add 1/2 quart of motor oil to a full tank of gas (15 gallons), on a healthy 22RE would I see smoke in my exhaust???  Would that cause spark plugs to color with carbon?  I don't know.  I DO know I don't *see* any exhaust smoke and the spark plugs are clean.

AND.... my compression numbers on 2 cylinders are way too low.  On a fresh rebuild, the compression number should be up around 170+, at least that is what I have seen in posted numbers for a 22 in the past.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 15, 2018, 07:57:42 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1691 on: Aug 15, 2018, 11:18:16 AM »
Yes, the comp numbers should all be above 170.  If the age of your motor was unknown and I. had those numbers after a valve adjustment, it would be a year down and rebuild.

However, before doing that, I would do as bestgen stated above and redo the leak down test.

As far as not seeing pull in plugs, hard to say, there may not be enough oil change in each stroke to build up, just enough to collect on the exhaust as it cools down.  To 22r's I have had have blown snow like a fog machine, one was a stuck open exhaust valve, the other had a hole in the piston, the only one that had an oil chatted plug, was there one with a hole in the piston.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1692 on: Aug 15, 2018, 12:16:06 PM »
If u are confident your low compression is not because of valves then sound like it's tear down time

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1693 on: Aug 15, 2018, 03:21:54 PM »
Hey G,

I can't see any smoke, no blow-by.  After driving, engine hot, when I pull the oil dip stick I can hear pressure releasing, so I know there is air pressure in the crankcase and oil pan.  I think the amount of air pressure is not normal.  I don't see or hear any excessive blow by out the PVC valve, tubing, or rocker cover gasket.

The tail pipe is black, and not a grayish color, so I see there is probably excessive carbon in the exhaust.

Yes, I am puzzled by the clean plugs. I would think I'd see more carbon build up, and even pre-fouling.  They are absolutely clean!  Just a very tiny look into number 1 cylinder through the spark plug hole looks like the top of the piston is carbon'd up... I don't know if it is excessive or normal.  Only an complete engine tear-down and inspection will give me the answers.  :disturbed:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:

I had a '90 civic once, it would consume about twice as much oil as your 22re, but wouldn't smoke on start-up or acceleration. But if I would downshift and brake with compression, then accelerate, I could not see anything in my rear view mirror because of the smoke, then it would clear out and be ok, so it wasn't burning it all the time, just under certain condition (it was leaking like a mofo too). Maybe that is happening to you as well?

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1694 on: Aug 15, 2018, 06:11:32 PM »
Bolt a 3rz in. Call it done.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1695 on: Aug 16, 2018, 09:22:38 AM »
If u are confident your low compression is not because of valves then sound like it's tear down time

Hey E,

I appreciate your input!

Until I do a complete leak down and another compression test - I'll try BG's suggestion on loosening the rockers - I won't be sure of where there is some leaking (rings for sure - oil consumption) or if the valves are leaking and causing low compression as well.

I hope to do some more diagnosis Saturday morning.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1696 on: Aug 16, 2018, 09:32:45 AM »
Bolt a 3rz in. Call it done.

Hey r,

I should know the answer to this question, but I'm not sure....

So... can I just "bolt" in a 3RZ?

It seems like when I read posts by those who do a 3RZ swap, they are constantly trying to figure out how to get it mounted in the engine bay, get the harness hooked up, mate it with a tranny, etc, etc.

So just how easy is it to sway in 3RZ into a 1986 22RE, 5-speed, SR5 XtraCab??  And.... where would be the best way to start to find one and buy one?  How much time would it take to do a 3RZ swap from start to firing the engine.  THEN.... what advantages are there for this swap?  Seriously.

Gnarls.  :dunno:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1697 on: Aug 16, 2018, 09:41:18 AM »
I had a '90 civic once, it would consume about twice as much oil as your 22re, but wouldn't smoke on start-up or acceleration. But if I would downshift and brake with compression, then accelerate, I could not see anything in my rear view mirror because of the smoke, then it would clear out and be ok, so it wasn't burning it all the time, just under certain condition (it was leaking like a mofo too). Maybe that is happening to you as well?

Hey G,

I appreciate your input.

Well.. there is NO smoke that I can see at anytime driving my truck.  That does puzzle me.

There is absolutely NO motor oil leaks.

So far two engine builders have stated that based on my describing my engine build process and the components I used, they believe the excessive oil consumption is rings or cylinder bore, or a combination.

At this point, the engine will be pulled, disassembled, carefully inspected by a pro, hopefully I will learn something.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1698 on: Aug 16, 2018, 11:22:15 AM »
Hey r,

I should know the answer to this question, but I'm not sure....

So... can I just "bolt" in a 3RZ?

It seems like when I read posts by those who do a 3RZ swap, they are constantly trying to figure out how to get it mounted in the engine bay, get the harness hooked up, mate it with a tranny, etc, etc.

So just how easy is it to sway in 3RZ into a 1986 22RE, 5-speed, SR5 XtraCab??  And.... where would be the best way to start to find one and buy one?  How much time would it take to do a 3RZ swap from start to firing the engine.  THEN.... what advantages are there for this swap?  Seriously.

Gnarls.  :dunno:

Get engine mounts from toyonlyswaps. Get bellhousing from the 5 speed donor vehicle the 3rz came from. It bolts in. You will change the slave cylinder supply line because it moves to the driver side. Extend fuel lines, small things but nothing hard.  Wiring is not that hard on an already efi vehicle. And yes the results are real. Just like driving a Tacoma except it looks much cooler and is an 86.
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Snowtoy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1699 on: Aug 16, 2018, 03:54:07 PM »
So far two engine builders have stated that based on my describing my engine build process and the components I used, they believe the excessive oil consumption is rings or cylinder bore, or a combination.

What were the comp numbers after the rebuild, were they ever above 170?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1700 on: Aug 16, 2018, 04:12:10 PM »
I don't think a 3rz fits with an 86 IFS......
Ed
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1701 on: Aug 17, 2018, 07:19:41 AM »
Correct. Forgot he is ifs. Then order the pan already modified. Still easy.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1702 on: Aug 17, 2018, 08:25:54 AM »
I know this is sacreligius to some Toy owners, but if I were to do a swap, I would swap in an LS 6.2.

I have always wanted a V-8 in my early Toy trucks.  And, I have a friend who is involved in 4-wheel racing and popular off-road competitions, builds engines and does LS swaps all the time in different vehicles.

Unless I find there is too much involved, emissions/licensing issues, or too much cost, I'd look seriously at an LS swap.  My estimated turn-key cost - installed-  is less than $5,000.  BUT... I have a gut feeling that any swap is not as easy at first blush.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1703 on: Aug 17, 2018, 08:44:59 AM »
What were the comp numbers after the rebuild, were they ever above 170?

Hi S,

I'd have to look back into my notes, but I believe the initial test after firing the engine was in the 120's, and the next test was in the 140's.  I think the compression was lower than what it should have been from the start.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1704 on: Aug 17, 2018, 11:52:04 AM »
swap in an LS 6.2.

always wanted a V-8 in my early Toy trucks

I'd look seriously at an LS swap.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1705 on: Aug 17, 2018, 12:54:06 PM »
If you have Kommiefornia like emissions testing forget about doing an LS swap.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1706 on: Aug 17, 2018, 03:04:37 PM »
If your memory is correct, those numbers seem low for a fresh rebuild, IIRC, the ones I have I rebuilt over the years have all been in the 160's/170's cold after a few 100 miles.

With the issues you had with dialing in the valves with the cam, I am wondering if the comp numbers are unrelated to the oil consumption.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1707 on: Aug 17, 2018, 05:46:46 PM »
I thought somewhere in the 140 to 150 was the spec for my 22RE when I had my valves adjusted?  Is it different for different years?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1708 on: Aug 17, 2018, 06:46:33 PM »
The '85,'88, & '93 FSM's state 142psi as the minimum compression pressure for a warm engine, none state a maximum, however use 171psi for Compression Pressure in the steps for performing a compression test.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1709 on: Aug 18, 2018, 07:24:49 AM »
I thought somewhere in the 140 to 150 was the spec for my 22RE when I had my valves adjusted?  Is it different for different years?

The FSM uses the "STD" and "Limit" for specs on compression pressure on a 22R/RE:  STD = 171 psi, Limit = 142.

So, I assume that STD means that's the factory spec at manufacturing, and 142 would mean less than that is outside of the target pressure - most likely losing some performance and fuel mileage.

It's interesting that FSM specs the 22RTE turbo at STD =149 and Limit = 120.  Obviously its got boost.

Most of the compression tests that have posted seem to be up around 170+ for a factory spec'd engine.  Above that, I would imagine you may be required to burn 90+ octane gas.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2018, 04:36:06 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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