Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 190706 times)

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Lewis Hein

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1560 on: Mar 30, 2018, 10:58:10 AM »
90% efficiency is a common figure for electric motors, according to a conversation I had with an electrical engineer some years back. Some motors are as low as 70-80% (source: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html). For the other number, that being the efficiency of the alternator, I already gave my source.

Literally every other number in the post is calculated from these two, using basic principles of engineering.

If you don't like my numbers, come up with your own and re-run the calculations. It will likely be quite enlightening if you can find efficiency ratings that are more accurate than mine.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1561 on: Mar 30, 2018, 12:52:11 PM »
The alternator must be spun either way, and doesn't change turning resistance based on how many amps are being drawn. So I'm gonna go with gnarls on this one and say that an electric fan does NOT absorb more HP than a stock setup with fan clutch.
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1562 on: Mar 30, 2018, 01:04:27 PM »
Oh boy!.... I love getting into the weeds.  :gap:


Gnarls.  :cheese:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1563 on: Mar 30, 2018, 01:16:19 PM »
The alternator must be spun either way, and doesn't change turning resistance based on how many amps are being drawn.

What is your basis for that claim?

I have a counter-argument, but I'm curious to hear your argument first.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1564 on: Mar 30, 2018, 01:57:29 PM »
What is your basis for that claim?

I have a counter-argument, but I'm curious to hear your argument first.

I must rephrase. The alternator will change mechanical resistance based off electrical load, but your average 14 inch Efan (stock toyota size) is only drawing 8-10 amps. I think our alternators are either 40 amp or 55 amp depending on if you have the LEF or FEN alternator. That's pulling 25% of the alternators rating, which isn't much especially if you're running a 22R. Gnarls has a 22RE which really isn't drawing a ton of current for engine management. I don't think 25% of the alternators rating is more than the resistance of a stock plastic fan.

The way I would hook up an E fan is to have a gauge (insurance for if the Efan craps out at a stop light) that has the ability to turn on an E fan. I'd probably set the E fan to kick on right after the thermostat opens up which would keep the Efan off during highway driving and on at stop lights or 4 wheeling.
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

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Lewis Hein

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1565 on: Mar 30, 2018, 02:12:47 PM »
Hey 300k, I'm less confused now about what you were saying.

Without a doubt, an electric fan will do all kinds of cool things that a mechanical fan won't. I kinda want one....

I still maintain that that, given the same blades, electric is less efficient than the direct drive. I do not maintain that the difference is going to matter much relative to what the engine does already.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1566 on: Mar 30, 2018, 06:52:31 PM »
Basic ASE style test question.  Does a vehicles 12 volt system run off the alternator or battery? 

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1567 on: Mar 30, 2018, 06:57:14 PM »
Lol, plus try to break down what's being argued.  We have moved from adding an Efan in conjunction with OEM to mechanical vs efan as stand alone.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1568 on: Mar 30, 2018, 07:30:28 PM »
Basic ASE style test question.  Does a vehicles 12 volt system run off the alternator or battery? 

I'd say battery.

Lol, plus try to break down what's being argued.  We have moved from adding an E fan in conjunction with OEM to mechanical vs E fan as stand alone.

I don't think Gnarls intended to add an E fan in conjunction with the mechanical fan. sounds like he wanted to remove the wasted fan clutch (including fan blade) and just run a E fan. So, it WAS about converting from stock mechanical to E fan, and then somewhere along the lines someone (bestgen) changed to adding an auxiliary fan. I don't think Chris has much of his AC system left, I could be wrong. Might be hard to mount an E fan with a condenser.
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1569 on: Mar 30, 2018, 07:44:54 PM »
The stock 1985 Toyota pickup alternator is rated at 60 amps output.

An electric radiator fan will draw between 15 and 20 amps depending upon whose fan spec you look at.

When I turn on heavier amp draw accessories in my truck like headlights, the engine idle will drop, noticeably.  When I add up all the other accessories and electrical devices drawing amps, when adding an additional 15 o 20 amps from an electric fan, that will be powered most of the time, the alternator will create a parasite dragÖ probably between 1 to 3 HP.

In addition, as the alternator outputs increasing higher amps to power added amp draw, it develops heat and added load on the rotating components, and potentially can fail sooner.

So if I added an electric fan, I would also swap in a higher output alternator.

Without measuring the actual HP drag on the fan clutch (which changes with ambient temperature) and fan (which changes with vehicle speed) compared to the drag on the alternator and electric fan blades, I would be pulling numbers out of my butt.

SoÖ. since a new Aisin factory type fan clutch is about $100 from 22RE Performance and for all practical experiences in my history of living here in sunny AZ for 26 years, owning, daily driving, and 4-wheeling 3 Toyota pickups, I feel fine with the factory style fan clutch.  The cost of a quality e-fan and a high output alternator, AND the potential for complete failure is not a trade-off for any of the advantages (including HP gains) that I might gain over the stock clutch fan.

There is not much that can catastrophically fail with a fan clutch, but there are multiple components in the electric fan conversion that can fail, and then cause the fan motor to stop turning.

Gnarls.  :blah:
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2018, 07:50:28 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1570 on: Mar 31, 2018, 02:54:05 AM »
Without measuring the actual HP drag on the fan clutch (which changes with ambient temperature) and fan (which changes with vehicle speed) compared to the drag on the alternator and electric fan blades, I would be pulling numbers out of my butt.

I seem to remember the Aisin fan clutch has a bi-metal coil that makes it lock up when the engine gets warm. Is my memory correct?

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1571 on: Mar 31, 2018, 08:06:22 AM »
...I don't think Gnarls intended to add an E fan in conjunction with the mechanical fan.


Correct.   If I had an over-heating issue, I would just install a larger capacity radiator.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1572 on: Mar 31, 2018, 08:22:42 AM »
I seem to remember the Aisin fan clutch has a bi-metal coil that makes it lock up when the engine gets warm. Is my memory correct?

Lock up?  Define.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1573 on: Mar 31, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »
Lock up?  Define.

The fan clutch acts as a viscous coupling when the engine is cold. I seem to remember a bi-metal strip that responds to hot air causing the two viscously coupled pieces to become rigidly coupled.

Not sayin' it is so, just that I have a vague memory of it's being so. I'd appreciate independant verification.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1574 on: Mar 31, 2018, 08:32:36 AM »
Boy oh boy this sure got out of hand.
Simple recommendation to add an aux fan to help with A/C performance.  :smack:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1575 on: Mar 31, 2018, 11:05:28 AM »
I mean, it is in this thread chris...  :rofl2:
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1576 on: Mar 31, 2018, 11:19:10 AM »
Boy oh boy this sure got out of hand.
Simple recommendation to add an aux fan to help with A/C performance.  :smack:


    :haha:  OH... bgen.... of course NONE of your threads or posts have EVER gotten "out of hand"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :shake_head:    :moon:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1577 on: Mar 31, 2018, 11:22:20 AM »
Boy oh boy this sure got out of hand.
Simple recommendation to add an aux fan to help with A/C performance.  :smack:


It was a good suggestion.  :smooch:

I always take notes when you post a suggestion. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :biggthumpup:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1578 on: Mar 31, 2018, 11:24:37 AM »
The fan clutch acts as a viscous coupling when the engine is cold. I seem to remember a bi-metal strip that responds to hot air causing the two viscously coupled pieces to become rigidly coupled.

Not sayin' it is so, just that I have a vague memory of it's being so. I'd appreciate independant verification.


I always thought that the viscous feature on the fans developed more "drag" between the clutch and the fan blades to hook up better, but NOT a direct lock up, like a Detroit Locker. But.. I could be wrong.  :disturbed:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1579 on: Mar 31, 2018, 12:15:26 PM »
Boy oh boy this sure got out of hand.
Simple recommendation to add an aux fan to help with A/C performance.  :smack:


no :pokinit:!!

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1580 on: Mar 31, 2018, 07:24:48 PM »
..... also if your a/c idle up vsv isn't getting the ground or power signal (forgot which one is control)...

There are two ohm checks on this Vacuum Switching Valve (VSV).  1 - for short between terminals and the body (ground), and 2- the ohms between the two terminals - should be between 38 to 43 ohms at 68d F.  Mine was bad at 1.1 ohms between terminals, and no short.  The new one I just received today reads 41.9 ohms.


Quote
  there is an a/c amplifier behind the glove box that has an adjustable rpm activation nob/screw so you can change when the idle up vsv kicks on...

That valve - right below the glove box - determines at what temperature the A/C compressor will continue to stay on.  It was set, according to my AC guy, at about 40d F.  After he recharged my system with 134a, he changed it to 34d F, so the air inside the cab coming out of the vents will be 6 degrees cooler before the compressor turns off.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 31, 2018, 07:43:38 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1581 on: Apr 01, 2018, 04:16:56 PM »
I think that the real gain in efficiency is that when the vehicle is moving forward a fan isnít needed to pull air through the radiator and power to the fan is disconnected through the thermostat and fan relay.
-1987 SR5 4runner, 1KZ-te turbo diesel with custom 3" S.S. dump pipe, R-151f transmission, marlin dual ultimate transfer cases w/ triple shifter, SAS, 35's https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98969.0
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1582 on: Apr 02, 2018, 02:49:34 AM »
I think that the real gain in efficiency is that when the vehicle is moving forward a fan isnít needed to pull air through the radiator and power to the fan is disconnected through the thermostat and fan relay.

Hey helipilot77,

Thereís no doubt in my mind that there may be efficiencies.  However, until I see some certified test data and comparisons, I just make assumptions based upon speculation, and some physics.  :blah:

Iíd like to see the MTTF (Mean Time To Failure) on an e-fan vs a viscous fan clutch.  :greengrin:

The reduced parasitic drag on the water pump is a factor.  The temperature control of the e-fan is another.  The amp draw and drag on the alternator to power the e-fan is another factor.

As I mentioned, if any one of the electric system components fails, the e-fan doesnít workÖ. No fan Ė no cool.  :willynilly:

The cost and installation time for the e-fan conversion is another factor Ė not worth it to me.  :shakehead:

So for me itís cost vs benefits vs reliability.  :headscratch:

The few times I have had an over-heating issue with one of my 22s was caused by a blow head gasket, a failed thermostat, and in 2013 a coolant leak.  NONE of those failures would have been prevented with an electric fan.

For example Ė just the cost Ė if I were interested in tweaking some HP out my 22, Iíd rather spend the money ($170 for the LCE e-fan kit) conversion, and an LCE high output 140 amp alternator $285), on a ceramic coated Doug Thorley header.  :thumbs:

Thatís just my opinion Ė it may be worthless.  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:

« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2018, 02:39:46 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1583 on: Apr 02, 2018, 03:13:20 AM »
UPDATE APRIL 2 2018

Had a misfire and idle problem at start up and at normal op temperature.

I suspected valve lash.  Adjusted the valve lash.  The intake rockers was loose, the exhaust rockers were tight.
This will be the 4th time I've adjusted the valve lash since firing the engine.  It now has 3,000 miles on this break-in.

I have a strong feeling this 261C cam, with its overlap and tight lash specs (I-.007, E-.009), needs to have the lash right on to optimize the cam profile and performance in a 22RE.  I noticed the difference in throttle response immediately.

That rough idle problem solved, but I still have an idle problem.  Restarting the engine after 15 or 20 minutes, it wants to die.  I have to figure out what MammaECU wants!!

I installed the new Toyota VSV.  That fixed the idle up issue when switching on the A/C compressor.  Getting the two hoses connected to the right ports on the idle RPM vacuum valve is a must.  The nylon hex nut on the vacuum valve works perfectly to adjust how much of an RPM increase you want when you turn on the A/C compressor.  Iíve got it adjusted at 800 RPM increase.

I also replaced the fan clutch with an Aisin.  Iím not convinced it is any better than the one I replaced?  How do YOU test a fan clutch?  The Aisin is smaller in diameter, a little fatter. It did not come with the 4 nuts needed to mount it to the fan. I had to go buy 4 nuts.  The other fan clutch, I don't remember who the manufacturer is, but I bought it from O'Reilly's.  It used 4 bolts to bolt the fan.

https://imgur.com/a/MJXiU

On another subjectÖ. Has anyone successfully installed MECHANICAL gauges on 22RE?  The stock gauges are worthless. Iím going to install AutoMeter mechanical gauges Ė water temp, oil pressure, and ammeter.  The last time I did an install on my first 22RE was back in the late 80ís and I forgot how I did it.  The last time I installed those gauges on my 22R was around 1999, and I didnít have to worry about upsetting a MammaECU.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2018, 02:35:20 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1584 on: Apr 04, 2018, 08:32:04 AM »
I agree. I was just playing devils advocate for the OEMís. I personally run a fan clutch modified with heavier weight oil for improved cooling. I too like the simplicity.
-1987 SR5 4runner, 1KZ-te turbo diesel with custom 3" S.S. dump pipe, R-151f transmission, marlin dual ultimate transfer cases w/ triple shifter, SAS, 35's https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98969.0
-1984 SR5 Tercel 4wd wagon bone stock - given to my nephew https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100547.0
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1585 on: Apr 06, 2018, 07:34:28 PM »
UPDATE APRIL 6 2018

The A/C system has been recharged and working nicely.  I am amazed at how much HP it draws when the compressor in turned on.  The truck runs very sluggish with the A/C on.  It is estimated that an early A/C pump, like the 1986 version on my truck, will draw about 4 to 5 HP.  At off-idle the engine is only producing about 15 HP, at 5 HP it drawing about 30% of the HP!

At around 2,500 RPM the draw is about 10 to 12%, and at 3,000 RPMs at freeway cruise speeds, it drops to about 3 to 4%.  No wonder it feels like Iím dragging around a big anchor.

Iím glad I only have to cool the area in my XtraCab.  Here in AZ in the summer time, I have to run the A/C constantly, with blower fan on full blast while driving in outside ambient air temps of 95 and above.

My average gas mileage will probably drop several MPGs with the A/C on.  Iíll know more tomorrow when I fuel up.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1586 on: Apr 06, 2018, 07:37:43 PM »
I agree. I was just playing devils advocate for the OEMís. I personally run a fan clutch modified with heavier weight oil for improved cooling. I too like the simplicity.

This mod you speak of... got any details?
82 Pickup - 22R : OME NitroChargers/Springs : Timing Chain @ 180K

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1587 on: Apr 06, 2018, 09:24:36 PM »
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1588 on: Apr 07, 2018, 03:00:30 AM »
This mod you speak of... got any details?

Quote from: helipilot77 on Jun 09, 2015, 05:52:33 PM
... These things are notorious for running dry.


Thank you helipilot!  :beerchug:

This type of information and sharing are the gold nuggets of DIY-Tech!!  :biggthumpup:

If the failure of a typical fan clutch, after xx,000 miles is that the viscous fluid dries up, then I want to disassemble  the fan clutch I just replaced with a new Aisin and inspect it.  To try the repair, I need to source and price the bottle of viscous fluid.  I'm also curious about how the two halves of the clutch actually seal once its disassembled and bolted back together.

Gnarls.  :spin:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1589 on: Apr 24, 2018, 06:47:48 AM »

That valve - right below the glove box - determines at what temperature the A/C compressor will continue to stay on.  It was set, according to my AC guy, at about 40d F.  After he recharged my system with 134a, he changed it to 34d F, so the air inside the cab coming out of the vents will be 6 degrees cooler before the compressor turns off.

Gnarls.

Hmm, maybe we are talking about different models? On FI vehicles there is a little knob on the A/C amplifier that controls the output to the clutch. Theres also an input (rpm) from coil. I think the knob is actually labeled RPM. Maybe there is a different set up for carburetors...

 
 
 
 
 

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