Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Gillesdetrail]

I don't need to shift that high, I just love to. Nothing wrong with that

[300k]

I don't need to shift that high, I just love to. Nothing wrong with that

could be the reason you toasted 3 engines in relatively short time? The REs revlimit at like 6200. Even with a 3RZ I seldom push it over 4000-4500. If you want to, "your rig, your call" but man that's a high shift point IMO

[YooperYota]

Especially with my gears, I've definitely had my 20r over 7k several times... It doesn't seem to mind 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

OK you asked for it... 

Hey H,

I always enjoy your pomp 'n stink...

This may surprise you... but I agree with all of your points and experiences.  My truck is a 1986, not an 85, but I'd give my left testicle to have my 85 22R back!

I loved my 22R.  It was way easier to tune, way easier to diagnose, way easier to find and buy parts, way easier to work on, way more fun to mess with, and way more responsive to changes and modifications, and had way more options for performance modifications.

I'll go out on a limb....I believe a 22R can be built and installed in my truck with equal to or better throttle response (torque and HP), with equal to or lower out of pocket cost, equal to or better reliability, and equal to lower cost of maintenance than 3RZ.  And... equal to or more fun to drive than a 3RZ!!  I don't believe it would get better gas mileage than a 3RZ.

My 1st 1986 22RE would cold start at any outside temperature and any elevation by just turning the key, every time.  It would average 25 to 26 MPG.

A cold start for my 1985 22R, even at its best tune, usually needed a little foreplay.  BUT... I loved the challenge of getting it to fire when cold. I was like a ritual that added to my enjoyment of driving my truck. It was a daily driver and week-end wheeler.  Setting the choke did not always make it fire right up.  I had to massage the gas pedal and crank the starter for the right number of seconds and number of times before it would fire. It would blubber a couple seconds while it sipped on the overly rich mixture.  When it reached normal operating temperature, it was very happy to rev to whatever RPM I tach'd it to and was always ready to tear up any pavement and climb any rock.  It would average 19 to 20 MPG.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

I have no idea how you manged to blow those R motors up. Mine ran off road with no coolant for a good 10 miles. and not a gravel road bombing at 40mph,  it was rocky crap where I was going around 5-10 miles an hour. also why always shift at 5500? I didn't go above 3500 unless I was trying to merge or something.

Isn't it surprising how easy it is to toast an engine! How much did you pay to have it towed???

I tach my 22s to 4000 between shifts very often every day.  I tach it to 5000 to 5500 when getting on the freeway in 1st gear at least once a day whether it needs to or not.  I don't NEED to, I just LIKE to.

Is there some evidence somewhere that driving a 22R or 22RE at 3500 RPMs will increase it's longevity or reduce any maintenance or repair compared to driving like I do? 

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Peak HP of stock 22RE is at 4800.

When wringing it out I would go to 5500-5600

Sustained max about 5000


Normally I'd go up to 4000 in 1st, 3500 2nd, 3000 3rd,  then whatever (skipping 4th sometimes)

[Gnarly4X]

The 22re is reliable okay, but not tough in my opinion. If you overheat a little, your chances of blowing a headgasket are high. Some model 22re are known for timing chain guides wearing out quickly and causing other problems like eating through t-chain covers. I blew up two 22r/20r hybrid on the same main bearings in 5000km after I had em. Good oil and level, good timing, good mixture and temperature. Both low mileage engines that I know for myself. So far I've been lucky on my 3rd short block because I've had it for 8000km and I've pushed the envelope on timing and a/f plenty of times but I expect it to go soon. Granted I am very hard on my engines but I never beat them when they are cold, and always shift right when the power goes down around 5200-5500rpms.

I have seen a 3rz take the rev limiter for what amounts to hours, cold or hot, trail after trail, season after season without skipping a beat, but just one can't be judged for the whole. They do seem tough though. And the 2tr-fe seems too.

Hey G,

My experiences are different.

Overheating an engine with an alloy head can cause potential head gasket failure on any engine, and the 3RZ is no exception.

I overheated my 1st 22RE several times and never had a head gasket blow.  My 22R did have a head and head gasket failure after 178,000 miles.  The 22R factory head has a design flaw that causes a crack in the number 3 chamber at the water port, coolant gets into the chamber and blows the gasket.  Electrolysis is a big factor in causing a head/head gasket failure in a 22.  Of course head warp will do it.

When I got hit head-on on top of Big Bear Mountain in my 1st  86 22RE, the winch caved in the radiator to the fan and stopped the fan from spinning. The water pump turned, and the both radiator hoses were kinked. There was no coolant leaking.  I thought for sure it would not run more than a few minutes without over heating.  I drove the truck off the mountain to the highway... it did not over heat, much to my amazement!  I drove that truck off the mountain to San Diego, about 150 miles and 3 hours, and the temp gauge never went past normal!  The fan did NOT turn!  Will that qualify for "tough engine"?

Regarding timing chain guides.... the plastic guides have a stupid design flaw that will allow the driver's side guide to break at the top bolt hole and allow the chain to slap.  If that happens it will cause a very loud noise at start up.  If the driver is ignorant enough NOT to check out the noise, then eventually, the chain will wear a hole in the t-chain cover and coolant leaks into the crankcase oil.

The stock plastic guides can last somewhere between 90,000 miles and 120,000 average... just my experience.

I don't know yet how many miles the metal guides will last.

From someone who admits to blowing up low mileage engines and taching them up constantly, pushes the limit on timing and AF, I'm skeptical about your definition of "not tough".

I have driven both my 1st 1986 22RE and my 1985 22R in the Glamis sand dunes (at least a half dozen times) at mostly WOT and constantly hitting NO rev limiter at RPMs over 5,000 and 5,500 ALL DAY LONG for 3 and 4 days in a row!!... Does that qualify for "tough"?

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

I've broken a 22re (rod through the block) and a 22r (snapped crankshaft). Anything can be broken.

Hit post a little to early. Both of these failures were under normal driving conditions. The rod was me cruising at 65 in 4th as that is where the engine was happiest. That engine was mated to an auto driven by an older guy most of its life and still had the cross hatching when I did the HG for PM. The 22r was taking off from a stop and I was not dropping he clutch. That one had a rough life I'm sure of it based on the condition of the truck when I first bought it

[Gnarly4X]

Peak HP of stock 22RE is at 4800.

When wringing it out I would go to 5500-5600

Sustained max about 5000


Normally I'd go up to 4000 in 1st, 3500 2nd, 3000 3rd,  then whatever (skipping 4th sometimes)

I don't know about 5,000 "sustained"? 

I also normally do 4 in 1st, 3500 in 2nd, and 3 in 3rd.... then into 4th until I'm going for a few miles into 5th.  My rebuilt will easily do 1800 and 2000 RPMs in 5th gear on the flat without feeling like it's lugging.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

I shifted mine between 4 and 4500. Past that it didn't seem to gain anything besides more noise and sounding like a river. This was a fresh rebuild with an engnbldr head and his t.v. cam. Motor sounded great everywhere else though, but like oil everyone has a different opinion of whennto shift. My personal opinion is that if the red line is higher than your shift point you're fine. I have no evidence to back that up besides logic.

[Gnarly4X]

I've broken a 22re (rod through the block) and a 22r (snapped crankshaft). Anything can be broken.

M,

Was any diagnostics or failure analysis done to determine cause of failure?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I shifted mine between 4 and 4500. Past that it didn't seem to gain anything besides more noise... and sounding like a river. This was a fresh rebuild with an engnbldr head and his t.v. cam. Motor sounded great everywhere else though, but like oil everyone has a different opinion of whennto shift. My personal opinion is that if the red line is higher than your shift point you're fine. I have no evidence to back that up besides logic.

Hey M,

I agree.  Although this rebuild will pull hard to 4500 in 1st, even though after that the torque drops noticeably it still revs easily to 5000 and 5500.  There is still a little pull after 4500 in 2nd.  The engine will go to 5,000 and even easily go to 5,500 in 1st and 2nd, but I don't see the point as far as using what little usable torque is there.

Gnarls.

[fasterspider]

Wow, it must be nice to have a factory tach in your rig.
My DLX 5 speed Xtra-Cab has no tach so I'm way up there in rpm getting on a freeway but, off road the revs stay under 2500 pretty much all the time.
It is the 2nd 22R engine in the truck and I bought the long block from eBay for $1100.00 delivered. I've since rebuilt the head with Viton rubber valve guide seals.
I'm not easy on any vehicle so the engine has to work hard on the road getting to a trail and she gets really bad gas mileage while on the highway and great mileage on the trail. I am good to my engines though and they get a lot of oil changes and valve adjustments happen twice a year.
The bad is because the 22R has no balls and cannot get out of her own way even going downhill with gale force wind at her back but, on the trail my little 22R putts along using almost no fuel under 2000 rpm.
I had my original 22R short block bored 30 over and was going to build it but, my buddy needed an engine for his 2wd street truck so I sold it to him for cost of work done and it is running really well with the new http://enginebuilder.com head & rv cam set up. Wish I would have spent the money for the head & cam but, I am going to buy the cam next month and then maybe she will get up the hill without me dropping her down into 3rd gear.

[Gnarly4X]

Wow, it must be nice to have a factory tach in your rig.
My DLX 5 speed Xtra-Cab has no tach so I'm way up there in rpm getting on a freeway but, off road the revs stay under 2500 pretty much all the time.
It is the 2nd 22R engine in the truck and I bought the long block from eBay for $1100.00 delivered. I've since rebuilt the head with Viton rubber valve guide seals.
I'm not easy on any vehicle so the engine has to work hard on the road getting to a trail and she gets really bad gas mileage while on the highway and great mileage on the trail. I am good to my engines though and they get a lot of oil changes and valve adjustments happen twice a year.
The bad is because the 22R has no balls and cannot get out of her own way even going downhill with gale force wind at her back but, on the trail my little 22R putts along using almost no fuel under 2000 rpm.
I had my original 22R short block bored 30 over and was going to build it but, my buddy needed an engine for his 2wd street truck so I sold it to him for cost of work done and it is running really well with the new http://enginebuilder.com head & rv cam set up. Wish I would have spent the money for the head & cam but, I am going to buy the cam next month and then maybe she will get up the hill without me dropping her down into 3rd gear.

Hey f,

The SR5 package is OK, but the instruments, other than the tach, are practically worthless because they don't have a readable swing of range for accurately determining the value.  Aftermarket Tachometers are relatively inexpensive.

I looked at the short block and long block option, and felt there was too much risk and the expense of a highly reputable source was, at the time, outside my budget. 

I'm sorry to read that your 22R has no gonads, and since you refer to it as "her", gonads would be a gender aberration, depending upon your PC position.

How many miles on this engine?  What is your elevation? What cam are you considering?  Are you just installing a new cam, or adding a header and open exhaust?  How many miles on your last tune up. 

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

M,

Was any diagnostics or failure analysis done to determine cause of failure?

Gnarls.

I didn't do any MT or RT on either part and there was no knocking before anything happened. I didn't even both checking clearances because I had other motors already to drop it and didn't see the need. Both engine were stock builds with stock compression as well.

[fasterspider]

Hey f,

The SR5 package is OK, but the instruments, other than the tach, are practically worthless because they don't have a readable swing of range for accurately determining the value.  Aftermarket Tachometers are relatively inexpensive.

I looked at the short block and long block option, and felt there was too much risk and the expense of a highly reputable source was, at the time, outside my budget. 

I'm sorry to read that your 22R has no gonads, and since you refer to it as "her", gonads would be a gender aberration, depending upon your PC position.

How many miles on this engine?  What is your elevation? What cam are you considering?  Are you just installing a new cam, or adding a header and open exhaust?  How many miles on your last tune up. 

Gnarls.

I always was a bit fascinated with hermaphrodites. 😁
My rig is still running the original camshaft that is probably worn beyond tolerances so she struggles going up hill big time but, going down hill she will go 85mph. I do not feel comfortable driving my rig faster than 80 with all her elevation but, I have to build up momentum going down a hill to get her going up the next hill without slowing down to an obstruction on the road and she runs hot in the summertime also because she has to work so hard going up hill.
I'm buying an enginebuilder.com RV camshaft as soon as he returns to work from being sick, the site is down due to illness.

[Gnarly4X]

I always was a bit fascinated with hermaphrodites. 😁
My rig is still running the original camshaft that is probably worn beyond tolerances so she struggles going up hill big time but, going down hill she will go 85mph. I do not feel comfortable driving my rig faster than 80 with all her elevation but, I have to build up momentum going down a hill to get her going up the next hill without slowing down to an obstruction on the road and she runs hot in the summertime also because she has to work so hard going up hill.
I'm buying an enginebuilder.com RV camshaft as soon as he returns to work from being sick, the site is down due to illness.

Which "RV camshaft" are you considering?  The 268 or the 261C?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I always was a bit fascinated with hermaphrodites. 😁 

Night Crawlers of hemaphroditic... but they still have to mate with another worm.   

Gnarls.   

[fasterspider]

Which "RV camshaft" are you considering?  The 268 or the 261C?

Gnarls.

Now here's a new detail I wasn't privy to, what's the difference and which is better for a smog legal application?

[300k]

I think it depends on where you drive. if I was doing a propane run (about 6 miles round trip), I'd hit 5k RPM 22 times in that one trip My engine was also in a sketchy craigslist truck so I really wanted to nurse it along until it died of natural causes. With the very fresh 3RZ in the 4runner, I find myself revving it up all the time. 4500 RPM shifts are pretty normal.

IMO, revs are fun but not exactly practical for me

[Gnarly4X]

I think it depends on where you drive.

When it comes to my experience over the years with the 4-wheeling clubs and the people, there is obviously a wide range of owners and how they drive their vehicles – on and off the trails.  I've always been a hot-rodder and a lead foot, so I always spent time doing diligent maintenance and lots of frequent tuning, and looking for, and experimenting with, performance options.

There are the less mechanically inclined or just not interest in being a DIYer. They only do just what is basic maintenance maintenance, and sometimes don't enough maintenance.  They often pay someone else to work on their vehicle.  Some of those guys are frequently breaking down.

Then there are the conservative drivers who don't hot rod and who apparently don't believe the engine will take the high revs and their Toyota will handle a more aggressive driving style.  I told the story about a young member of our 4-wheeling club who had a really nice 85 XtraCab.  He was a very conservative driver and only went on trail runs for basically stock vehicles. I happened to be visiting him and he wanted to go for a ride in my 1985.  I took him for a street ride and he just about pooped himself.  My 22R was running exceptionally well, so went through the gears like I usually did.  He said "Man!!  Aren't you gunna blow up your engine?"  I said:  "Nahh.... It likes it when I tach it 6 grand once in awhile."  He said he rarely tachs his engine to 4,000 RPM.

Logically a hot-rodded vehicle is more likely to have more failures.  I think my 22R and 22REs are happier at around 3,000 RPMs.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

When it comes to my experience over the years with the 4-wheeling clubs and the people, there is obviously a wide range of owners and how they drive their vehicles – on and off the trails.  I've always been a hot-rodder and a lead foot, so I always spent time doing diligent maintenance and lots of frequent tuning, and looking for, and experimenting with, performance options.

There are the less mechanically inclined or just not interest in being a DIYer. They only do just what is basic maintenance maintenance, and sometimes don't enough maintenance.  They often pay someone else to work on their vehicle.  Some of those guys are frequently breaking down.

Then there are the conservative drivers who don't hot rod and who apparently don't believe the engine will take the high revs and their Toyota will handle a more aggressive driving style.  I told the story about a young member of our 4-wheeling club who had a really nice 85 XtraCab.  He was a very conservative driver and only went on trail runs for basically stock vehicles. I happened to be visiting him and he wanted to go for a ride in my 1985.  I took him for a street ride and he just about pooped himself.  My 22R was running exceptionally well, so went through the gears like I usually did.  He said "Man!!  Aren't you gunna blow up your engine?"  I said:  "Nahh.... It likes it when I tach it 6 grand once in awhile."  He said he rarely tachs his engine to 4,000 RPM.

Logically a hot-rodded vehicle is more likely to have more failures.  I think my 22R and 22REs are happier at around 3,000 RPMs.

Gnarls.

As a general rule I pay people to work on my rig and have had extremely good fortune so far. Unfortunately, I am probably due. I do drive in a way off road to not unnecessarily stress the vehicle while going where I want to go.  At times I take calculated risks that have so far paid off. On the street I am happy to use more rpm than a lot of people that I taken a ride with. It seems that many like to shift as soon as the engine stops lugging.  I have never felt that there was any real power to be had above 4,500 in either my old 85 22R or current 89 22RE. When pulling grades I generally hold it around 4k but when I start the get impatient on the trip to Moab it'll climb higher...

[Gnarly4X]

As a general rule I pay people to work on my rig and have had extremely good fortune so far. Unfortunately, I am probably due. I do drive in a way off road to not unnecessarily stress the vehicle while going where I want to go.  At times I take calculated risks that have so far paid off. On the street I am happy to use more rpm than a lot of people that I taken a ride with. It seems that many like to shift as soon as the engine stops lugging.  I have never felt that there was any real power to be had above 4,500 in either my old 85 22R or current 89 22RE. When pulling grades I generally hold it around 4k but when I start the get impatient on the trip to Moab it'll climb higher...

There's nothing wrong with paying someone to do work on your vehicle.  In my experience, finding a completely trustworthy auto mechanic that has a good reputation and really knows their poop, and won't bend me over is not easy.  I've had bad experiences even with the reputable Toyota dealer.

As much as I cringe when I do.....I will pay someone to do something I know I'd be way over my head or I just don't have the time.

I agree that after 4500 RPMs, at least on my 3 22s, the power does noticeably drop off.  I have shifted down to 4th or 3rd, and tach'd to 4,000 RPMs for a few minutes will climbing a steep grade because I'm loaded down for a long camping trip or trail run.  I'm OK with 4,000 RPM for a few minutes at whatever speed that does, but that is about as high as I feel comfortable for a sustained period.  In the sand dunes, I would hit 5,000 and 5500 at times, but shift up quickly.  I'd be frequently running up to 4,000 and 4500 for 15 to 20 minutes at a time.  The leader would usually stop after that and take short 10 minute break, before getting back into the duning.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Paying someone else to work on your vehicle is like paying someone to sire your children.

[fasterspider]

The few times I have to hand my rig off to someone else to do the work, I get depressed, angry and extremely frustrated but, when I get my rig back she is a gazillion times better than she was before and all those woman emotions disappear.

[blackdiamond]

Paying someone else to work on your vehicle is like paying someone to sire your children.

That is funny considering my son is the result of IVF.

[H8PVMNT]

That is funny considering my son is the result of IVF.

I was just putting that up to stink on Gnarls thread and create fuel .  Whatever works as long as you wheel it that's the main thing.

[Gnarly4X]

Paying someone else to work on your vehicle is like paying someone to sire your children.

Dang.... yeah..... I resist it as long as I can, and then when I have to pay someone to "sire" my vehicle... I HATE IT!! 

Is that why I DON'T have any kids? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE MARCH 7 20018

My last tank of 87 octane driving the same route, but going 65 to 70 MPH, I got 19.87.

So.... I should not expect this engine to get what my 1st 1986 22RE, automatic, long bed got.

This engine is definitely putting out more torque and HP.  I speculate that with the .020" overbore, block decked .006", oversize valves in RV head, and 261C cam, DT header ... it is probably running about 30 HP more than a stock 22RE, stock exhaust.  My 1st California 22RE was rated at 116 HP as I remember, so this engine should be around 146 HP... just a wild a$$ guess. 

Gnarls.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

UPDATE MARCH 7 20018

My last tank of 87 octane driving the same route, but going 65 to 70 MPH, I got 19.87.

So…. I should not expect this engine to get what my 1st 1986 22RE, automatic, long bed got.

This engine is definitely putting out more torque and HP.  I speculate that with the .020” overbore, block decked .006”, oversize valves in RV head, and 261C cam, DT header … it is probably running about 30 HP more than a stock 22RE, stock exhaust.  My 1st California 22RE was rated at 116 HP as I remember, so this engine should be around 146 HP… just a wild a$$ guess. 

Gnarls.

Solid calculations!