Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[:)bestgen4runner]

I don’t know any guys that buy a 22R header for a 22RE and weld a bung on it.  That would require some quality TIG welding, but I see it could work to relocate the 02 sensor bung on the misplaced one on the header I just installed.  It would also allow for the bung to be lower on the tube and getting the O2 sensor further into the exhaust flow for a better reading.  It probably would require some machining to fab a bung.

I have never used a REMFLEX exhaust manifold gasket so I don’t have any experience with it. It seems to get great reviews.  There are some good quality factory style after market gaskets available – I like the looks of the Fel-Pro, Inshino, 22RE Performance, and Beck Arnley.  I am curious what gasket Summit will send me.  I may have to do what I had to do with the other 2 DT headers… have the flange plate machined absolutely flat.  Preventing exhaust leaks with my 3 trucks has always been a challenge with the stock manifold and the DT headers.

The LCE header was a consideration and gets good reviews.  It’s downstream O2 sensor requires an extended wire for the 02 sensor.  I would love to see a dyno comparison between the DT Tri-Y and LCE 4-in-to-1.

Gnarls.

I have had both. Easy answer. LCE 4 to 1 was all top end power. The Tri-y power in all the right places. 

[300k]

I don’t know any guys that buy a 22R header for a 22RE and weld a bung on it.  That would require some quality TIG welding, but I see it could work to relocate the 02 sensor bung on the misplaced one on the header I just installed.  It would also allow for the bung to be lower on the tube and getting the O2 sensor further into the exhaust flow for a better reading.  It probably would require some machining to fab a bung.

I have never used a REMFLEX exhaust manifold gasket so I don’t have any experience with it. It seems to get great reviews.  There are some good quality factory style after market gaskets available – I like the looks of the Fel-Pro, Inshino, 22RE Performance, and Beck Arnley.  I am curious what gasket Summit will send me.  I may have to do what I had to do with the other 2 DT headers… have the flange plate machined absolutely flat.  Preventing exhaust leaks with my 3 trucks has always been a challenge with the stock manifold and the DT headers.

The LCE header was a consideration and gets good reviews.  It’s downstream O2 sensor requires an extended wire for the 02 sensor.  I would love to see a dyno comparison between the DT Tri-Y and LCE 4-in-to-1.

Gnarls.

Seems like the LCE headed is the answer to all your problems. Half inch thick perfectly flat flange and the o2 sensor bung where it should be. I guess DT lost some quality over the years?

[:)bestgen4runner]

Seems like the LCE headed is the answer to all your problems. Half inch thick perfectly flat flange and the o2 sensor bung where it should be. I guess DT lost some quality over the years?

It all depends on what You are trying to accomplish.
If You want to build a engine with all top end HP (LCE all the way) Like drag racing.   
If You want more power in all the places that You use the power on a normal drive (tri-y). 
22re is and never will be a power house engine. 
I want to mention that the Tri-Y I have on My Son's 22re and that I had back in the day were the Northwest Offroad version. 1/2 flange that required no gasket, only exhaust silicone. never leaked once.
Both I had to add an o2 bung down just past the collecter. Both I had to add a heated o2 sensor to get consistent operation due to loss of heat that far down the exhaust. 
You could always go back to the manifold. Your really only looking at a 5hp gain at most. 

[:)bestgen4runner]

https://northwestoffroad.com/parts/headers.php
This is the best header made in My opinion. also note the o2 location in the pipe down stream.
Maybe get Your money back and buy one. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

https://northwestoffroad.com/parts/headers.php
This is the best header made in My opinion. also note the o2 location in the pipe down stream.
Maybe get Your money back and buy one. 

It's missing one cylinder!!!!

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

If you want to make more than 115hp get a 3rz...

[:)bestgen4runner]

If you want to make more than 115hp get a 3rz...

Or if You feel You need even more, Go 2 or 3rz supercharged like My plan.
take a look at the power numbers that LCE shows.
Note that You have to scroll down Gnarly. 
https://www.lceperformance.com/2RZ-2-4L-3RZ-2-7L-High-Boost-Supercharger-Kit-1995-p/7015190.htm

[300k]

I don't get the hype with having low end torque. My plan was to build a motor that had good street manners (mid to high range peak power) and then get my torque from gearing.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I don't get the hype with having low end torque. My plan was to build a motor that had good street manners (mid to high range peak power) and then get my torque from gearing.

I'll explain it to you later.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

I don't get the hype with having low end torque. My plan was to build a motor that had good street manners (mid to high range peak power) and then get my torque from gearing.

Low end torque is what allows you to not upshift every time you want to accelerate when cruising around at low rpm.  Having low end torque doesn't take away from street manners.

My 4Runner has an RV cam in it (I have no other information on it and I said that to make Gnarly lay awake at night wondering what it might be), but when the engine was rebuilt by my friend I opted for a mid range cam over the stock cam.  I honestly think I preferred the stock cam in my 85 over the mid range cam in my 89.  It's really hard to really compare two trucks that never overlapped in life, ran different size tires with the same gearing, and the 4Runner is heavier, but it feels like the 85 had a little more top end which comes in handy on the long highway trips climbing hills since there's really no such thing as true torque with a 22RE.  You just downshift to the higher RPM for a mechanical advantage in the transmission so having the power curve at a higher RPM seems like an advantage. 

[blackdiamond]

http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/torqueHP.htm

Are you familiar with this?

[redneckcustoms13]

I can make it easy for you 300k. Torque is what gets you to speed. Hp just keeps you there. That's as simple as I can possibly explain it.

[:)bestgen4runner]

When I was in Tech school My teacher said. Hp is the Wide reciever He is fast but ask him to bench 300lb and no way.
Torque is the offensive lineman, He is not fast but can move small mountains when asked.
One is speed the other is power. In a perfect world You would have an engine with lots of low end torque and great high rpm horse power. Vehicle manufacturers have been working at this for as long as I have been working on cars.
VVTI? Vtech? multiple size and length intake runners, tuned ports, The list goes on. in a 1980's 22r or re it's best to have low end torque. 
I will take power over speed every time. 
A super charger would increase both 

[H8PVMNT]

Hey H8PVMNT,

Well...perhaps this should be in the Too or Too thread, BUT... I did not have dual cases in my 85 (one of Marlin's first Crawler t-cases) and it went EVERYWHERE all other vehicles that had dual cases.
Gnarls.

So your '85 had a 4.7 single case or just stock 2.28 single?

[300k]

I know what torque is, dinks. I just dont get the idea of trying to build a tractor motor that can't get out of it's own way past 3k RPM

[H8PVMNT]

I was reading this thing one time about torque and bicycle dudes.  The typical in shape road biker has more torque than a 22r

[blackdiamond]

I know what torque is, dinks. I just dont get the idea of trying to build a tractor motor that can't get out of it's own way past 3k RPM

We gotta have low end torque to get off the line with our tires aired down.

[300k]

We gotta have low end torque to get off the line with our tires aired down.

I wouldn't know, my tires have low rolling resistance at 30psi

[blackdiamond]

I wouldn't know, my tires have low rolling resistance at 30psi

You can do better. Some tires are designed for 80 psi. Dilly dilly.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

So your '85 had a 4.7 single case or just stock 2.28 single?

It was the lower gear ratio.  And... there were just a few times I felt a lower gear would be smoother to make a very low crawl climb.  I had a switch in my 85 that I installed that when flipped increased the idle RPM by about 500 RPM. It did the same thing that the AC did when turned on and the AC pump clutch engaged to compensate for the pump drag, but without actually engaging the compressor... it worked great!   I would just press the brake pedal and let the engine lug down to slow down my crawl.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I know what torque is, dinks. I just dont get the idea of trying to build a tractor motor that can't get out of it's own way past 3k RPM

"'dinks'  Dual Income No Kids?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I know what torque is, dinks. I just dont get the idea of trying to build a tractor motor that can't get out of it's own way past 3k RPM

299k.... there are a LOT of ideas you just don't get. 

Gnarls.

[300k]

"'dinks'  Dual Income No Kids?

Gnarls.

New England slang.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The Torque, HP, Power, Gear Ratios has been discussed ad nausea. 

You can debate the facts, but cannot change the facts. 

It’s a no brainer.  Without torque, you cannot calculate HP (power). 

If I was building a Baja 1000 Trophy Truck, I’d be interested in HORSE POWER (about 1000 HP at 8,000 RPM). 

For my little 22RE, daily driver and part time rock crawler, I am only interested in TORQUE between 2500 to 3500 RPM.

Lower gears will multiple torque numbers and reduce speed, higher gears will lower torque and increase speed… you decide what you want. 

However, if I add a DT header and free flow exhaust I can get an increase in torque by about 25 lbs, - right where I want it – between 2500 to 3500 - and an increase HP by about 10 HP… for say $800.  Or I can increase my torque by installing lower gears… ring & pinion…. for about $800.

I prefer the increase power. 

Gnarls.

[300k]

-snip-

What I'm saying is if you build a "street engine", with extensive head work, a high RPM header, and a street cam that moves the power up higher, would that engine actually have trouble offroad once you put it in 1st gear double low thru 4.88 axle gears on a 33 inch tire? when I was going to buy thru EB, he made a really big deal about what cam and head choice I picked for exactly what I was doing. What R&P I was gonna run, what size tire, etc as if my truck would never run down the highway again. 22REP pretty much told me "you don't want a lopey cam offroad" but whatever on anything else.

also, hi OOPS! I'm gonna increase the torque of my motor when I change to a 4.88 R&P 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE February 6 2018

A Toyota dealer exhaust manifold gasket is about $55.00.

I had a really nice discussion with Mike at Doug Thorley this afternoon.

I hate to admit I’m a dummy, a dufus, an idiot, a ree-tard!!

I let my excitement and DIYer arrogance miss a very important Instruction Procedure.  I glanced over it and thought it was for the air injection system.  So I said to myself… “OK, Gnarls you’ve installed many exhaust manifold and header gaskets… it’s a simple thing, you put the gasket between the head and the header and torque some nuts”… WRONG.

I left out a very important piece to the install of DT Header.  The last page, installation note #7….

“Inspect your cylinder head.  Depending on your vehicle you may have to place the supplied 12mm Copper Crush Washer between the cylinder head and the threaded hole in the center of the new header flange.  If you must do this, once your header is installed also plug the center hole in the flange using the supplied M10-1.25mm Hex Flange Head Bolt.”

Well… I thought the one bolt - and the one missing - was for the EGR block off plates… WRONG.

So… after feeling like a complete moron, I will order a new gasket from Summit Racing and start over and re-install the new header... CORRECTLY.

I asked Mike about the bung location and O2 sensor, he said that header has passed THE most stringent EPA testing and specifications for all 50 states.  It will NOT cause any issues with the O2 sensor reading.  He had not heard of any issues with the O2 sensor being too close to the heat shield.  Based on my 22RE rebuild, he said the 2-1/4” tubing all the way is fine.

By the way, Mike read to me their dyno test results of this header on my engine…. WOW!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

....  "you don't want a lopey cam offroad" .... 

Uhhhmmm.... I will take a lopey cam anytime I can get one... on road, off road, in the air, under water, on a rock, in the mud, in the sand, in the snow.... any where it will LOPE@!!!!   

I LOVE LOPEY CAMS!! 

Gnarls.   

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I wouldn't know, my tires have low rolling resistance at 30psi

NOT WHEN YOU ARE ROCK CRAWLING!!

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

What I'm saying is if you build a "street engine", with extensive head work, a high RPM header, and a street cam that moves the power up higher, would that engine actually have trouble offroad once you put it in 1st gear double low thru 4.88 axle gears on a 33 inch tire?

The toque multiplication in double low even with stock gearing in both that you'll never have an issue related to not enough torque.  My 4Runner with a pretty boring 22RE will pull through the brakes in 4wd low low at idle.  It takes effort to stall it.

[300k]

The toque multiplication in double low even with stock gearing in both that you'll never have an issue related to not enough torque.  My 4Runner with a pretty boring 22RE will pull through the brakes in 4wd low low at idle.  It takes effort to stall it.

so then why shy away from the LCE header which moves power up high? It seems like it's a better idea than getting a header for low to mid torque and a matching cam?