Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[OVRAROK]

Hey O,

The pipe that is in there now is mandrel bent, I assume its stock. The tubing going in will be compression bent, unless I change my mind.

Gnarls.

Wow, every toyota I've seen is press bent. Do you have any pics?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Wow, every toyota I've seen is press bent. Do you have any pics?

Well.. I could be wrong... I'm old.

I'll look and post a photo tonight.  I thought most factory exhaust is all mandrel bent?

Gnarls.

[300k]

I was actually hoping to start a 20 page discussion on cat vs no cat, but everyone seems to be on the same page. One guy at LCE did give me the back pressure argument, but I told him there's not a cat on the truck, and I'm not gonna put one on.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I was actually hoping to start a 20 page discussion on cat vs no cat, but everyone seems to be on the same page. One guy at LCE did give me the back pressure argument, but I told him there's not a cat on the truck, and I'm not gonna put one on.

I was actually hoping to not to start a 20 page discussion on air down vs not airing down, but everyone seems to be on the same page. One guy on the forum did give me the no slip argument, but I told him there's no slip when I air down, and I'm gonna air down every time.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey Ed,

I have not forgotten about your request. I have to buy a cloth tape measure today.

Gnarls.

Doug Thorley TRI-Y Header - 1981-95 Toyota 20/22R-RE, O2 Sensor in manifold/Fuel Injection Only - THY-550Y-C

1.  Primary Tube Diameter and Length -- 1.50"  and 17.5"
2.  Primary Collector Tube diameter and Length -- 1.75" and 4.5"
3.  Secondary Tube Diameter and Length  -- 1.75" and 9"
4.  Secondary Collector Diameter and Length -- 7" and 2.25"
5.  Merge angles - Primary and Secondary-- 30 degrees

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I was actually hoping to start a 20 page discussion on cat vs no cat...."

Why?

Yesterday in the sandbox.....

300k [10:53 PM]:   well, yes but why would I talk about that
300k [10:52 PM]:   No
:)bestgen4runner [10:50 PM]:   Do you have plans to do any real wheeling?

On a primarily Toyota 4-wheeling forum, why would you NOT "talk about that"? 

Oh!... that's right.... you started an engine rebuild thread, then deleted posts to remove clutter and dilly dilly humor, then locked it.   

I don't get it? 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Why?

Yesterday in the sandbox.....

300k [10:53 PM]:   well, yes but why would I talk about that
300k [10:52 PM]:   No
:)bestgen4runner [10:50 PM]:   Do you have plans to do any real wheeling?

On a primarily Toyota 4-wheeling forum, why would you NOT "talk about that"? 

Oh!... that's right.... you started an engine rebuild thread, then deleted posts to remove clutter and dilly dilly humor, then locked it.   

I don't get it? 

Gnarls.

Me thinks you missed his intended humor in the sandbox, but I have no explanation for the rest of his behaviors.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Me thinks you missed his intended humor in the sandbox, but I have no explanation for the rest of his behaviors.

Hey bd,

No… I get his cutting and quick sense of humor, and I enjoy it. 

As he posts his zingers and pseudo-protagonist commentary, I’m just injecting my own crotchety snarky sense of humor behind MY keyboard. 

299k... you are my favorite goofy-dude. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

...
I’ve been sent some very interesting flow bench data on the 22RE head from a well-known and very generous engine technoid, so I’m going to plug in some new data and do some more virtual mock pulls on my EA software. 

This new flow bench data will change the comparison results I just did for my exhaust upgrade.

Gnarls 

So..... the flow data, which is for a 22RE stock and a 22RE with porting and a head with over-sized valves.  What I don't know is exactly what porting was done.  I assume intake and exhaust ports, and probably some cc'ing in the head chamber.  The flow numbers definitely change the torque and HP numbers from my original data.

I'm going to bounce those flow numbers against some reputable 22RE engine builders and see if I can get more feedback and data.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Wow, every toyota I've seen is press bent. Do you have any pics?

OVRAROK,

You are correct.  I was wrong.  The pipe IS compression bent.  I don't know if it's original or not, but it appears to be stock. 

If you want to see a photo, I can post one.

I'm surprised that back in 1986 that Toyota was compression bending exhaust.  I believe most auto manufacturers are mandrel bending their exhaust systems. 

I guess those little Japanese auto engineers knew that their little low RPM 96 HP engines would not know the difference. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE FEB 1 2018

I made some progress yesterday.  Got the driveshafts installed and cross member bolted.  I removed the stock exhaust manifold and slipped the DT header into its new home to check out the space, nuts & bolts, and gaskets.  The O2 sensor bung location just barely gives enough room to bolt in the O2 sensor and the wire is just long enough to reach. 

Since I’m going to drive it to the muffler shop, I took me 2 trips to AutoZone but figured out how to temporarily hook up some piping from the collector to the old muffler.  Flex pipe is amazing stuff!

I should have it back on it tires and drivable on Sunday! 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

You should put duals in this thing just because.

[redneckcustoms13]

4 pipes straight through the hood. Dilly dilly

[300k]

Is there a good spot on the header to swedge a can of beans or ravioli? It's nice to have some hot food after a good days wheeling and the stock manifold is lacking.

[H8PVMNT]

You should put duals in this thing just because.

No I mean dual t-cases, not dual exhaust.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

No I mean dual t-cases, not dual exhaust.

Dual exhaust would be cats-a$$!!... little tricky for routing. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Is there a good spot on the header to swedge a can of beans or ravioli? It's nice to have some hot food after a good days wheeling and the stock manifold is lacking.

Haahha... that's funny.  I remember the guy who put a can of beans on his V-8 manifold..... guess what happened!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

4 pipes straight through the hood. Dilly dilly

THAT would qualify as a "redneck custom exhaust"!!!!!   

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Haahha... that's funny.  I remember the guy who put a can of beans on his V-8 manifold..... guess what happened!

Gnarls.

V8 and tin foil wrapped breakfast burritos.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

V8 and tin foil wrapped breakfast burritos.

Yes.. that was the most popular "food" for heating up on an engine.  I tried to eat one from an engine.  I couldn't do it... it smelled like gas and oil!!  No bueno!!

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

This is how it’s done today.
Love this thing.
Thanks again Mark!
https://imgur.com/a/gjAq9

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

This is how it’s done today.
Love this thing.
Thanks again Mark!
https://imgur.com/a/gjAq9

Yeah... that would have been really nice on one of the most memorable ThanksGiving cross-country Mexico trips.  We crossed the border and spent the night to wake up to about 25d F temperataure! We didn't want to burn our fire wood for the beach, we still had 2 days to go to cross the ancient volcanoes and huge sand dunes before finally arriving at the beach on the Sonoran side.  That first morning we suffered until the engines got warmed and the heaters were on full blast.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

No I mean dual t-cases, not dual exhaust.

Hey H8PVMNT,

Well...perhaps this should be in the Too or Too thread, BUT... I did not have dual cases in my 85 (one of Marlin's first Crawler t-cases) and it went EVERYWHERE all other vehicles that had dual cases.  Marlin was right behind me one of the first Martinez Canyon trips. I can still remember the look on his face when we had to drop off a 10 foot vertical ledge into the Sluice!!

Stock 22R, DT header-open exhaust, 35's, locked up, lifted about 4", custom springs and shackles was all it had... the rest trail busting fun was just my driving and some really good spotters.  I consider my 1985 Standard Cab a "low-buck build" and the 2nd best vehicle I ever owned (my '67 Fastback Vette was the best).

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE February 5 2018

I had a bad day yesterday.  I installed the DT header and hooked up the temporary exhaust tubing.  I noticed after I had the header lightly torqued down, that the gasket supplied by Summit/Doug Thorley was not a correct design.

The two center lower head studs lack any gasket material, consequently there is a gap between the face of the header flange and where it clamps to the head.  This is just stupid!!

I followed the installation instructions.  I fired the engine and at idle felt an exhaust leak through a hole in the header flange between the two studs in the bottom middle of the flange. I turned off the engine and went into the house in total disgust!

My disappointment in this Doug Thorley header is at a point that I am going to attempt to have a conversation with Doug Thorley, who apparently is actually owned by Summit Racing.

Here are the issues:

1 – HEADER FLANGE GASKET - the header to head gasket is flat stupid and is an obvious design flaw.

2 – O2 SENSOR BUNG - the location of the O2 sensor bung is wrong.  Not only is it extremely difficult to get the O2 sensor into the bung, but extremely difficult to insert the bolts and tighten the nuts.  The bung flange is too high off the header tube and that does not allow the tip of the O2 sensor to be positioned in the tube.  I assume this could cause a lack of proper reading by the O2 sensor, despite the fact that it is only reading the exhaust flow of two cylinders.  Obviously the person who designed the bung NEVER attempted to install the O2 sensor!  The bung should be a machined block with tapped threads for two short bolts or studs.

3 – WRONG/MISSING BOLTS EGR BLOCK OFF PLATES– The bolts (one missing) for the EGR block off plates is the wrong length. I had to buy two bolts, and actually cut the one for the rear plate because it cannot extend passed the header flange, otherwise the tip would be pressed into the head.

4- ONLY ONE EXHAUST CLAMP - The hardware kit should contain TWO 2-1/4” exhaust clamps.

I am tempted to box this header up and send it back to Summit for a complete refund.  I will call Summit and hopefully have a conversation with them about this header.

I am very disturbed by the poor design of this header and insufficient hardware kit considering that Doug Thorley has been designing and manufacturing for “over 50 years”.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR THIS POOR QUALITY PRODUCT!!

LINK TO PHOTOS:  https://imgur.com/a/QMiM0


Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

  You will be offered a complete refund not much more. 
This is the aftermarket.  It sucks so bad. Lot's of money out there for a company that offers the things We all want. Like quality and excellent customer service. So far I have only found a very few that do.

4Xinnovations. A+++++ in My book. Nothing but the very best quality and customer service. also when You call You will be talking to the owner. not a phone person. I have yet to hear a bad word about them.

Warn, Everything I have experienced with their products has been great quality. Even the used Warn winch I purchased. So far My findings with even their budget line of winches has been perfect. I have had no customer service experience but have been told by several people it is top notch.

I know I am going to hear it from all of You and I understand that people hate them but I personally have a perfect record with Trailgear. Zero failures on any of the parts I have purchased from them, great prices, super fast shipping, and My limited customer service experience has been perfect.

That is where Nice the list ends for Me.

As far as issues, well the naughty list is very very long.   

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

  You will be offered a complete refund not much more. 
This is the aftermarket.  It sucks so bad. Lot's of money out there for a company that offers the things We all want. Like quality and excellent customer service. So far I have only found a very few that do.

Yeah... I realize I am just a number on a shipping report.  But I am going to exercise my 1st Amendment right.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  FEB 5 2018

I test drove the truck this afternoon.  NO more transmission leaks!!.. Yippee.

I drove the truck about 15 miles.  It has more pull from 3,000 RPM up.  I think it has a little more pull from off-idle as well.  It definitely feels like it has more pull in 4th and 5th gears at 3,000 RPMs.  Based on my butt dyno, I believe there is less throttle needed now at 75 and 80 MPH in 5th gear.  I assume this may give me a tad more MPG at freeway speeds.

At WOT the torque seems to fall off after about 4500 RPM in 3rd, 4th , and 5th gears.

I still have exhaust leaks at the header flange  I also will need to remove the heat shield where it rubs on the O2 sensor and trim off several inches.

I spoke to the Customer Service department at Summit Racing.  The gal was very nice and offered to send me a new and different exhaust header gasket.  If THAT gasket still leaks, I will try a RemFlex.  She also offered to reimburse me for the cost of having to buy two bolts for the EGR block off plates, but I told her “Thank you, but it’s not worth my time.”

She confirmed that Summit Racing is only the distributor for Doug Thorley, so I will be contacting DT and attempt to have  a discussion about the disappointing lousy design of this header and why.  I was under the impression that Summit owned Doug Thorley Headers.

Gnarls.

[300k]

You could have bought the carbureted version and had an exhaust shop weld a bung in at the collector w/ heated o2 sensor. that's how a lot of guys run it. Also why not just do the Remflex instead of messing with whatever other garbage gasket they're gonna send you?

Looks like I'll be going LCE when I upgrade to a header

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

You could have bought the carbureted version and had an exhaust shop weld a bung in at the collector w/ heated o2 sensor. that's how a lot of guys run it. Also why not just do the Remflex instead of messing with whatever other garbage gasket they're gonna send you?

Looks like I'll be going LCE when I upgrade to a header

I don’t know any guys that buy a 22R header for a 22RE and weld a bung on it.  That would require some quality TIG welding, but I see it could work to relocate the 02 sensor bung on the misplaced one on the header I just installed.  It would also allow for the bung to be lower on the tube and getting the O2 sensor further into the exhaust flow for a better reading.  It probably would require some machining to fab a bung.

I have never used a REMFLEX exhaust manifold gasket so I don’t have any experience with it. It seems to get great reviews.  There are some good quality factory style after market gaskets available – I like the looks of the Fel-Pro, Inshino, 22RE Performance, and Beck Arnley.  I am curious what gasket Summit will send me.  I may have to do what I had to do with the other 2 DT headers… have the flange plate machined absolutely flat.  Preventing exhaust leaks with my 3 trucks has always been a challenge with the stock manifold and the DT headers.

The LCE header was a consideration and gets good reviews.  It’s downstream O2 sensor requires an extended wire for the 02 sensor.  I would love to see a dyno comparison between the DT Tri-Y and LCE 4-in-to-1.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

If you want to do it right.
You will need to have an o2 sensor bung installed after the collector. This way your Ecu will have an accurate sample from all 4 cylinders.
I have run that header both ways. Provided location and downstream.
Down stream required the addition of a heated 02 sensor but once completed ot works much better and more accurate.

Looks like this was recommended before. Interesting!