Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[300k]

Everyone always talks about half moons leaking. I'm with you in that I've never had a leaky half moon. Maybe you could pick up those aluminum half moons from 22RE Performance?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Everyone always talks about half moons leaking. I'm with you in that I've never had a leaky half moon. Maybe you could pick up those aluminum half moons from 22RE Performance?

Well... I'm open to whatever works.. the cost is NOTHING when I get an oil leak... I HATE LEAKS!!

I would like to ask Jim at 22RE Performance why they are selling an alloy replacement to the rubber ones... I have to guess that they know something I do not.

Gnarls.

[300k]

Well... I'm open to whatever works.. the cost is NOTHING when I get an oil leak... I HATE LEAKS!!

I would like to ask Jim at 22RE Performance why they are selling an alloy replacement to the rubber ones... I have to guess that they know something I do not.

Gnarls.

Because they apparently don't leak and are reusable

[Lewis Hein]

Glad to hear it was nothing worse than that... It would be bad to rebuild an engine only to find a leaky rear main.

Here's to another several hundred thousand miles on your new engine...

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Glad to hear it was nothing worse than that... It would be bad to rebuild an engine only to find a leaky rear main.

Here's to another several hundred thousand miles on your new engine...

Thank you Lewis! 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Because they apparently don't leak and are reusable

Well... I'd like to know whose head they used to measure and manufacturer his half moons.

Gnarls.

[liveoak]

man, that's great you didn't have to pull the tranny again. Have you listened to the injectors themselves on your stethoscope? My 92 seems to have way louder injectors than my 85 had. I thought I had drivetrain noise and tried chasing it down for quite a while until I decided to listen to the injectors themselves and they tick  loud

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

man, that's great you didn't have to pull the tranny again. Have you listened to the injectors themselves on your stethoscope? My 92 seems to have way louder injectors than my 85 had. I thought I had drivetrain noise and tried chasing it down for quite a while until I decided to listen to the injectors themselves and they tick  loud

Hey liveoak,

Yes, as a matter of fact I have listened to the injectors.  They batch fire and as I remember fire twice, so their "tick" frequency is way faster sounding than rocker tick.  BUT, they do contribute to the whole "tick" sound on these engines.

And, I also have chased many ticks.. the 22R mechanical fuel pump, exhaust leaks, timing chain slapping against the t-c cover, injectors, and the rockers.

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

3rz comes factory with aluminum half moons. Aftermarket company probably saw that and went with it.

[:)bestgen4runner]

3rz comes factory with aluminum half moons. Aftermarket company probably saw that and went with it.

Bingo! Improvement in technology that the 22re did not receive.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE 12-13-17

I removed the rocker cover and took a few measurements.  Based on the measurements, I cannot see how the cover could make contact with anything under it.  The rockers sit about ¼” below the top of the head bolts, so the rockers cannot make contact with the inside of the cover.  The head bolts are the only parts closet to the top of the inside of the rocker and baffles. The width of the baffles is way narrower than where the head bolts are located.  So if anything could or would make contact with the inside of the cover, it would have to be the head bolts.  IF the cover contacted the top of a head bolt, it probably would make loud noise and would make some kind of mark at the contact point.  I examined the inside of my cover, there is NO evidence of any contact.

If you over-tightened the acorn nuts and was able to compress the molded cover gasket enough that the cover was contacting the head, as H8PVMNT pointed out, it would probably create an echo chamber for the rocker tick and timing chain, increasing the noise level.

Both rubber ½ moons were leaking.    Both had been installed about 200+ miles ago with Form-A-Gasket No2.  The Form-A-Gasket was brittle and hard, which surprised me, considering it’s specified application.  It seems the ½ moons could be better made and thicker and made to fit more snugly into their cradle in the head… but perhaps they are designed that way for a reason. 

I cleaned the cover gasket, head where the ½ moons sit on the front and rear of the head with lacquer thinner.

This time I used Permatex Ultra Grey – by the way the application instructions suggest letting it dry for 24 hours.  I coated them well and installed them in the head. I noticed the thickness of the head is thinner than the width of the ½ moon groove, so I could move the ½ moon back and forth about 1/16 of an inch. The thin outside part that hugs both sides of the head wall wanted to flare out, so I squeezed it up against the head.  It also stuck up above the head about 1/8 of an inch as it sat in the cradle. Of course it compressed down when I lightly torqued acorn nuts down, and probably squeezes against the cradle.

The new Beck Arnley ½ moons were a tad bigger than the ones that came in the engnbldr's kit… BUT it may not be a fair comparison since they had months and mileage on them.

The blue DNJ molded cover gasket seemed thinner and slippery compared to the BA. The BA gasket is thicker and when I compressed it into its groove it was way tighter fitting. 

I would like to see a Toyota gasket kit, and those billet aluminum ½ moons. 

I feel about 98% confident the oil leak was the rear ½ moon, allowing hot motor oil to drip down to bottom of the bell housing – and not the rear crankshaft seal.  The oil level was down about 1/3 of a quart. 

I will know more tomorrow afternoon after I test drive it again. 

I apologize for the novel and no photos.

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Ok… I can’t stop overly analyzing.  I woke up this morning thinking too much.

I have listened to 3 22s (2 22RE’s and a 1985 22R) since 1986. I did a head job on the 22R.  I have had the rocker covers off and adjusted the valve lash more times than I care to remember.  My experience is limited to a Toy stock cam and head. 

I have a theory about the increase sound coming from the top of the head and rocker cover….  This rebuild has a head with over-sized valves and an aftermarket high torque cam profile, and the first time I have actually listened carefully to the sound it makes at idle.

I believe it seems logical there are several things working to create more sound and perhaps a slightly different sound.

1 – the extra mass of the larger valves hitting the valve seats.

2 – the cam profile that appears to produce more noise when the specified valve lash setting is not accurate.

3 – the overlap of this 261C cam profile may contribute to increase sound level during the exhaust event.

4 – the 261C’s increase in lift and duration over the stock cam may produce more sound generated from the rock rack.

5 -  the increase in compression from stock, causing an increase in combustion sound as the mixture is ignited.

Of course, there may be several other factors causing the increase sound level…

1 - I could be overly analyzing and the sound and what I’m hearing is perfectly normal for this specific rebuild and components.

2 – The rockers and shafts could be out of spec and excessively worn.  The Toyota factory rocker and shaft specs have a VERY tight tolerance spec – shaft diameter - .6287 to .6295.  That is only .0008” tolerance  8 10-thousandths of an inch!  And the shaft to arm oil clearance of .0006”.  So if the rockers and or shafts are out of spec, they would likely produce some clatter and added infamous rocker tick.

3 – the engine may quiet down after several thousand miles on break-in.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless. 

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

The rockers and shafts could be out of spec and excessively worn.  The Toyota factory rocker and shaft specs have a VERY tight tolerance spec – shaft diameter - .6287 to .6295.  That is only .0008” tolerance  8 10-thousandths of an inch!  And the shaft to arm oil clearance of .0006”.  So if the rockers and or shafts are out of spec, they would likely produce some clatter and added infamous rocker tick.
This is a real possibility. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  12-15-2017

I drove the truck yesterday.  With not touching the gas pedal, it still takes 3 times on the starter to get it to start and it blubbers for a second until it comes up to a low idle.  I will work on that later.

Since re-adjusting the valve lash, the engine sounds more normal now with balanced rocker noise.

The engine has a very noticeable increase in throttle response.  Better torque and pull.  I drove it about 25 miles down the freeway at between 65 and 80 MPH.  It pulls very hard from 2000 to 4500 and revs quickly… right where I want the torque and power band.  I tach’d it to 5500 3 or 4 times in 1st gear.  It revs easily to 5000 RPM in 1st and 2nd gears.  In 3rd gear it is much slower at revving to 4,500 and it doesn’t pull hard after 4500 RPMs in 4th.  In 5th gear at 80 its at about 3150 RPMs and feels like it has plenty of torque to maintain speed even on a slight upgrade.  I’ll test that more later on a hilly highway.

Preliminary Conclusion:  Like andykrow experienced with his 261C, the valve lash adjustment on this cam profile must be critical in the 22RE.  A tighter valve lash will increase overlap and this 261C already has 5.5 degrees.  5.5 degrees is higher than most of the other cam profiles for 22RE by several other name brand suppliers.  The Toyota stock cam has 2.2 degrees of overlap.

As experienced by a guy who was testing camshafts in his 22RE reported back when I was first doing cam research for my 22R, he said that the 261C produced a lean fire condition, and felt this cam would be better in carb’d engine.  At that time, Ted at engnbldr said they had not seen that problem with the 261C cam in a 22RE. 

I am hearing a slight blubber in 1st gear at just off idle and up to about 2,000 RPM at minimal throttle. It’s not an ignition type miss, but more like AFR. It doesn’t bother me, since it goes away as soon as I hit the throttle. It may be something other than the cam, however, I suspect (just my speculation) that MammaECU may be having a problem with the overlap?  Like a big cam does in a V-8, it causes that bubbler at idle and makes that awesome potato–potato-potato lope, then at WOT it gets where it wants to go.

After the drive, I checked for oil leaks and I saw fresh drops of oil on the bottom of the bell housing!!  It may have been left over oil on the back side of the block caused by the previously leaking rear ½ moon… PLEASE BE THAT, and not the rear main seal!!

I’ll drive it to work today and check for leaks when I get home.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  12-15-17 PM

I crawled under the truck this afternoon after I got home. Drove it about 75 miles.

I’m SO bummed!!  There is oil coming out of the rubber boot around the clutch release arm.  I can’t think of how motor oil can get into the bell housing and then blow out that boot unless it is coming from the crank seal and running back down the input shaft, maybe onto the new clutch disc and pressure plate.

I can’t imagine how it could be the input shaft seal and housing gasket I just replaced.

So….  I think I will have to drop the tranny, remove the pressure plate and clutch disc, unbolt the flywheel and see how much the seal is leaking and replace it.  I suppose the seal housing could be leaking.  I was ultra careful with the gasket, sealant, and installing the crank seal and bolting the housing.  Of course there is the possibility I fubar’d the crank seal install and over-tightened the rocker cover…  but I don’t think so.  I believe you would have to work really hard to screw up a simple rubber crank seal install…. But perhaps my automotive mechanical skills have completely disappeared.

I don’t recall having a rocker cover gasket leak, grommets rupture, or the ½ moons leaking, or a rear crank seal leaking in any of the other two trucks I’ve worked on.  I don’t want to believe it’s a bad quality issue with the parts kit, but the more I go through these leaks and issues, the more I’m convinced what bestgen has repeatedly warned about.

IF the seal or gasket is leaking and I replace them with a Toyota or recommended name brand, and the leaks stop, I will want to have a serious conversation with engnbldr about the gasket kit I bought.

Based upon the condition of this truck, inside and out, I believe it is possible the odometer reading is accurate, and this truck and original engine had less than 150,000 miles on it when I ran it out of coolant in January 2013.

I won’t be able to drop the tranny until Sunday.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

It could be left over oil from the half moon plug that made it into the bellhousing.

[blackdiamond]

See if you lose anything on the dipstick before pulling anything.

[300k]

See if you lose anything on the dipstick before pulling anything.

He hates leaks, don't think he cares much about how much is actually leaking

[blackdiamond]

He hates leaks, don't think he cares much about how much is actually leaking

Was thinking it would identify if it’s residual or an active leak.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

It could be left over oil from the half moon plug that made it into the bellhousing.

Yes, it is possible. 

The amount of oil leaking at the bottom of the bell housing before I discovered the rear 1/2 moon leak, was a constant drip as it sat idling after a drive, so it was leaking pretty good.  There could be residual oil still making its way out the inside of the bell housing.  AND.. if the rear main is and has been leaking then there should be fresh oil draining out the little rectangle hole at the center bottom of the bell housing.

The amount of oil I see now is less than a teaspoon, just a few drips.  I cleaned up all the oil up around the bottom of the bell housing after I test drove the truck on Wednesday.  I will clean up all the oil, and test drive it again.

I'm hoping for the best, and dreading the worst.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

He hates leaks, don't think he cares much about how much is actually leaking

I'm anal about leaks!  My engine will NOT leak anything it's not supposed to!! 

If it leaks..... I WILL fix it! 

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Did you use anything on the bolts that hold the flywheel on?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Did you use anything on the bolts that hold the flywheel on?

I don't think I used any thing on the bolts.

Gnarls.

[OVRAROK]

I don't think I used any thing on the bolts.

Gnarls.

Rut  row

[OVRAROK]

Did you purchase new bolts, the ones from toyota have a loctite already on them 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Did you purchase new bolts, the ones from toyota have a loctite already on them 

I used the original ones.

What is wrong with using the old flywheel bolts? 

I've never bought new flywheel bolts and never had a flywheel come loose, shrink, shred, shrivel, rip, run, tear, snag, catch fire.... or dibble out the end!! 

I installed new pressure plate bolts. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE  12-17-17 PM

I cleaned all the oil from bottom of bell housing and rubber boot around clutch fork.  Drove the truck about 50 miles down the freeway, and to the gas station.  It took about 11 gallons of fuel.  Calculated 200.2 miles – 18.106 MPG.  Really surprised it was that good because I’ve been WOT many times from 1st through 3rd gears on that tank.

The engine runs good on 87, 89, or 91 octane.  I filled it with 87 this time and it revs nice with no detectible pining.

I looked under the truck and saw oil drops and smears on the bottom of the bell housing. If I had to guess on how much, it was less than a teaspoon of oil.  But it appears to be coming from inside the bell housing…. Unfortunately I have a bad feeling it is leaking from the crank seal and/or possibly the gasket.

I’m concerned that the leak will contaminate the new clutch disc and I’ll have to replace.

I now have 492 miles on the break in oil, so I will be changing it and the oil filter.

I am NOT a happy 1986 Toyota XtrCab truck owner right now.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

If you find that the oil leak continues one possible cause could be the flywheel bolts. I believe they are open to the crank case on the inside. Been a while since I have looked at one on a 22re. I have seen more than once on a Toyota where no locktight was used and oil leaks out past the threads.
Hope I’m wrong.

[300k]

If you find that the oil leak continues one possible cause could be the flywheel bolts. I believe they are open to the crank case on the inside. Been a while since I have looked at one on a 22re. I have seen more than once on a Toyota where no locktight was used and oil leaks out past the threads.
Hope I’m wrong.

I just checked the cranks I have outside in the bed of my truck. They are not thru holes, so they should not leak oil.

[emsvitil]

I can see tranny fluid possibly getting on pressure plate with a tranny oil seal problem.

But with the engine, the flywheel should act like a large oil slinger and keep oil off the pressure plate.