Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188265 times)

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Snowtoy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #810 on: Apr 22, 2017, 01:50:43 PM »
How to link from another Toyota site.
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/afm/

BigMike also has quite a bit of input/info here,
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=5446.0
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #811 on: Apr 22, 2017, 07:03:56 PM »
How to link from another Toyota site.
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/afm/

BigMike also has quite a bit of input/info here,
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=5446.0

Hi Snowtoy,

On the AFM adjustments, I have seen the Youtube videos and I remember reading the 4x4 link some time back.

I rebuilt this engine with the idea of starting with a baseline of the factory stock engine specs, then adding selected modifications by installing simple mods to the head (larger valves), to the camshaft profile (gain torque in the 2500 to 3500 RPM range), and install a header with larger exhaust piping, free-flow CAT and muffler.  All of which do have some touted performance gains – but, in my opinion, numbers or amounts that are mostly anecdotal, opinion, and butt dyno.

I wanted to find out for myself.  I wanted to test my rebuild with my own butt dyno, and then on a certified chassis dyno by a very reputable speed shop with a highly experienced chassis dyno operator.

Theoretically the larger valves in the head and torquey cam profile, supposedly, will work fine in a stock 22RE with MamaECU and her little input sensors, including the AFM, injectors, etc.  Nowhere have I read or been told by any aftermarket seller of performance enhancing modification parts that I have to make any adjustments to anything.

If I need to make some “adjustments” to tune the add-ons to my target goal in performance gains, I’m willing to do that providing they do not get overly expensive or create other problems… unreasonably poor fuel economy.

The Toyota engineers designed this engine with decades of experience.  I believe when you start making “changes” to their design, there are potential side-effects, or trade-offs.  Toyota introduced its first EFI system on the 1979 Supra 4M-E.  In 1986 did they anticipate that in 2016 Gnarls, a backyard DIYer, would rebuild their incredibly well-engineered - and now legendary - engine with larger valves, an aftermarket camshaft with an overlap of 6 degrees, while burning today’s gasoline fuel formula composition that did not even exist in 1986?

I may find out what I’ve been told by a very reputable Toyota engine builder, and my own back-of-my-brain thoughts, that I should just keep my 22RE factory stock and enjoy what it did perfectly well in 1986.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 22, 2017, 07:44:34 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #812 on: Apr 22, 2017, 07:59:01 PM »
Look into the Lce air fuel controller. This is the tool I have used to tune a modified 22re using the factory ecu
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
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emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #813 on: Apr 22, 2017, 08:28:26 PM »
When you're in closed-loop mode (most driving conditions), tweaking the AFM really won't do anything other than make it take longer for the ECM to 'fix' your 'tweak'.......

I wouldn't touch the AFM yet.......

I'd check fuel pressure and for your starting problem see how long the timer for the cold start injector actually is on.

The LCE air fuel controller is a 'resistor' added in series to the temp sensor so the ECU thinks conditions are colder than they actually are........
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #814 on: Apr 22, 2017, 10:20:33 PM »
That's correct on the Lce controller. When you pair it with an air fuel ratio gauge you can trick the computer into the correct fuel mixture. Works great with a modified engine.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #815 on: Apr 23, 2017, 05:16:13 AM »
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2017, 06:31:20 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #816 on: Apr 23, 2017, 06:46:34 PM »
UPDATE Sunday, April 23...

Today I did a comparison on my Engine Analyzer DD for the Toyota factory cam, CompCam 252S, and engbldr 261C.  Back several years ago when I was doing research on cam profiles for my 22R, the CC252S is the one that I felt was the best for my driving style and increased torque in the RPM range I use the most.  And it should still keep MamaECU happy for good gas mileage – based on the reports by the guys that have installed it in a 22RE and gave me some good report feedback.

I am thinking seriously about ordering one from Summit, and pulling the 261C out of my engine.  I want to see what changes it makes, if any.  The 261C specs from engbldr say 6 degrees of overlap, my DD says 5.5 degrees.

The CompCam 252S data on my DD shows 3.2 degrees of overlap.  The factory stock cam shows 2.6 degrees of overlap. Based upon the feedback from those who have installed the 261C, now with my own experience, it’s my gut feeling, and speculation at this point, that the 6 degrees of overlap in the 261C profile is causing a lean fire condition (lean AFR) and upsetting MamaECU.

Any and all comments will be appreciated.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #817 on: Apr 23, 2017, 07:51:47 PM »
 :shake_head:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #818 on: Apr 23, 2017, 08:15:48 PM »
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Mudder

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #819 on: Apr 23, 2017, 10:00:36 PM »
Gnarly, I don't think your cam is causing a lean condition. My trucks not running lean and I've got the same cam. I'd get a fuel pressure gauge on there and see what psi you've got.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #820 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:32:05 AM »
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.


Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #821 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:56:06 AM »
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..

Yes... I am planning to re-adjust the valve lash a couple thousandths.  I think that will make the rockers a little noisy, but that's OK for this short period testing.

Edited for "Ed"....Opening the valve lash will change the duration *slightly*.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?

And, yes... I will replace the the fuel pressure regulator... and it would nice the know my issue is really a lean mixture caused by less the sufficient fuel pressure to the injectors... but I really don't know for sure I'm seeing a lean mixture?  The gas formulas today do make the spark plugs read differently than in the earlier leaded fuel days.

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
 

 
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 07:41:46 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #822 on: Apr 24, 2017, 05:04:35 AM »
Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).

If my engine was a 22R, I would have had this thing running and really enjoying my new found "torque"!!

If I could do it over, I would have bought a truck with a 22R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #823 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #824 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:02:00 AM »
i mentioned this before but did you try disabling the egr and then driving around to test? an egr that opens too soon can cause a lean condition up to WOT.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #825 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:34:15 AM »
When you say "disable", you mean pull the vacuum line off the bottom, then plugging the hose?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #826 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:35:14 AM »
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.

I know you are messing with me.  I've been "messed" with before!  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #827 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:50:19 AM »
When you say "disable", you mean pull the vacuum line off the bottom, then plugging the hose?

Gnarls.

yes or  the 12mm bolts at back of plenum (egr connection)and blocking off(slide in a gasket or something to block port then tighten back up)

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #828 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:09:46 PM »
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #829 on: Apr 24, 2017, 06:40:25 PM »
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap

In a given cam profile - correct.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #830 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:25:17 PM »

Opening the valve lash will not change the duration.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?




Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #831 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:39:17 PM »


Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


OK... I'll give you *slightly*...... but .002" opening or closing the valve lash will most likely make a very small difference in duration, and may make the rockers slightly louder if opened, and make the seat time on the exhaust valve shorter if tightened.  BUT... I plan to try opening them up a couple thousandths.

Changing the valve lash from cam spec sheet 7/9 to 9/11 changes the overlap from 5.5 to 5.4 degrees...... don't know if the MamaECU will get any feedback from the O2 sensor?

Gnarls.

No, I did not degree the camshaft.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 07:51:53 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #832 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:44:03 PM »
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #833 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:45:09 PM »
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #834 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............

Yes.... I'm open right now to doing some "testing" before throwing more money at this engine... those little Toyota engineers are VERY proud of their "sensors"!!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #835 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:49:39 PM »
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.

Thanks mudder, that would be cool to see what your plugs look like!  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #836 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:55:35 PM »
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #837 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #838 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:07:14 PM »
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.

OK... ratchet straps.... good idea.  I am trying to imagine where the straps would go...?? first removing the cam sprocket bolt, removing the cam sprocket and keep it tightened up against the crank sprocket.... loosening the head bolts, then hoping or preventing any oil dripping down into the block bolts holes?  :yikes:  Then there's the rocker rack locating shims??  Then lifting the rocker rack, then then loosening the cam bearing bolts, lifting the camshaft....  :smack:

The head is held in place by the exhaust manifold and the intake manifold, and the timing cover, the EGR stuff... right?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 08:20:49 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #839 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:10:19 PM »
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.

I have replaced a broken valve spring on a 20R which entails removing the rocker arm assembly without redoing the headgasket...........
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

 
 
 
 
 

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