Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 195359 times)

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emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #810 on: Apr 22, 2017, 08:28:26 PM »
When you're in closed-loop mode (most driving conditions), tweaking the AFM really won't do anything other than make it take longer for the ECM to 'fix' your 'tweak'.......

I wouldn't touch the AFM yet.......

I'd check fuel pressure and for your starting problem see how long the timer for the cold start injector actually is on.

The LCE air fuel controller is a 'resistor' added in series to the temp sensor so the ECU thinks conditions are colder than they actually are........
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #811 on: Apr 22, 2017, 10:20:33 PM »
That's correct on the Lce controller. When you pair it with an air fuel ratio gauge you can trick the computer into the correct fuel mixture. Works great with a modified engine.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #812 on: Apr 23, 2017, 05:16:13 AM »
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2017, 06:31:20 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #813 on: Apr 23, 2017, 06:46:34 PM »
UPDATE Sunday, April 23...

Today I did a comparison on my Engine Analyzer DD for the Toyota factory cam, CompCam 252S, and engbldr 261C.  Back several years ago when I was doing research on cam profiles for my 22R, the CC252S is the one that I felt was the best for my driving style and increased torque in the RPM range I use the most.  And it should still keep MamaECU happy for good gas mileage – based on the reports by the guys that have installed it in a 22RE and gave me some good report feedback.

I am thinking seriously about ordering one from Summit, and pulling the 261C out of my engine.  I want to see what changes it makes, if any.  The 261C specs from engbldr say 6 degrees of overlap, my DD says 5.5 degrees.

The CompCam 252S data on my DD shows 3.2 degrees of overlap.  The factory stock cam shows 2.6 degrees of overlap. Based upon the feedback from those who have installed the 261C, now with my own experience, it’s my gut feeling, and speculation at this point, that the 6 degrees of overlap in the 261C profile is causing a lean fire condition (lean AFR) and upsetting MamaECU.

Any and all comments will be appreciated.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #814 on: Apr 23, 2017, 07:51:47 PM »
 :shake_head:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #815 on: Apr 23, 2017, 08:15:48 PM »
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Mudder

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #816 on: Apr 23, 2017, 10:00:36 PM »
Gnarly, I don't think your cam is causing a lean condition. My trucks not running lean and I've got the same cam. I'd get a fuel pressure gauge on there and see what psi you've got.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #817 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:32:05 AM »
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.


Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
– Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #818 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:56:06 AM »
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..

Yes... I am planning to re-adjust the valve lash a couple thousandths.  I think that will make the rockers a little noisy, but that's OK for this short period testing.

Edited for "Ed"....Opening the valve lash will change the duration *slightly*.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?

And, yes... I will replace the the fuel pressure regulator... and it would nice the know my issue is really a lean mixture caused by less the sufficient fuel pressure to the injectors... but I really don't know for sure I'm seeing a lean mixture?  The gas formulas today do make the spark plugs read differently than in the earlier leaded fuel days.

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
 

 
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 07:41:46 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #819 on: Apr 24, 2017, 05:04:35 AM »
Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).

If my engine was a 22R, I would have had this thing running and really enjoying my new found "torque"!!

If I could do it over, I would have bought a truck with a 22R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #820 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #821 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:34:15 AM »
When you say "disable", you mean pull the vacuum line off the bottom, then plugging the hose?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #822 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:35:14 AM »
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.

I know you are messing with me.  I've been "messed" with before!  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #823 on: Apr 24, 2017, 04:09:46 PM »
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #824 on: Apr 24, 2017, 06:40:25 PM »
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap

In a given cam profile - correct.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #825 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:25:17 PM »

Opening the valve lash will not change the duration.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?




Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #826 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:39:17 PM »


Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


OK... I'll give you *slightly*...... but .002" opening or closing the valve lash will most likely make a very small difference in duration, and may make the rockers slightly louder if opened, and make the seat time on the exhaust valve shorter if tightened.  BUT... I plan to try opening them up a couple thousandths.

Changing the valve lash from cam spec sheet 7/9 to 9/11 changes the overlap from 5.5 to 5.4 degrees...... don't know if the MamaECU will get any feedback from the O2 sensor?

Gnarls.

No, I did not degree the camshaft.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 07:51:53 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #827 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:44:03 PM »
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #828 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:45:09 PM »
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #829 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............

Yes.... I'm open right now to doing some "testing" before throwing more money at this engine... those little Toyota engineers are VERY proud of their "sensors"!!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #830 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:49:39 PM »
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.

Thanks mudder, that would be cool to see what your plugs look like!  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #831 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:55:35 PM »
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #832 on: Apr 24, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #833 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:07:14 PM »
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.

OK... ratchet straps.... good idea.  I am trying to imagine where the straps would go...?? first removing the cam sprocket bolt, removing the cam sprocket and keep it tightened up against the crank sprocket.... loosening the head bolts, then hoping or preventing any oil dripping down into the block bolts holes?  :yikes:  Then there's the rocker rack locating shims??  Then lifting the rocker rack, then then loosening the cam bearing bolts, lifting the camshaft....  :smack:

The head is held in place by the exhaust manifold and the intake manifold, and the timing cover, the EGR stuff... right?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017, 08:20:49 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #834 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:10:19 PM »
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.

I have replaced a broken valve spring on a 20R which entails removing the rocker arm assembly without redoing the headgasket...........
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #835 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:24:40 PM »
It's held in place by those but the reason of the ratchet straps is you need enough pressure to keep the seal from popping. I was thinking I'd probably use two and just run one near the front of the head and the back of the head and just run the other side under the engine to the other side of the head. As for keeping tension on the chain, I've done it without and didn't have a problem. But I've also done it by using a piece of string tied to the cam gear and tied to the hood support of my truck, the ones running under the hood.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #836 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:37:13 PM »
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.

I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #837 on: Apr 25, 2017, 04:32:27 AM »
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.



Of course its "not advisable"!  :shake:

How many things have been done by everyone here that was "not advisable"? :laugh:

It's easy to say "Just pull the head off and do it the right way." .... THAT is a huge job to me.  :thumbdown:

Doing things the "right way" or by the book is a good concept, but I've done many things that were NOT by the "book"... like NOT torquing a bolt to factory-by-the-book specs.  :blah:

We know swapping camshafts on an installed engine has been done many times without having to remove the head and re-install it.  :moon:

I have no confirmed evidence that the camshaft is causing a problem, although I have my "gut" feelings based on anecdotal experiences - mine, yours, and one other guy.  How many engbldr camshafts have you installed that proved to be defective, caused a lean fire, or simply would not work properly? :headshake:

At this point I have too many questions and not enough answers.  :disturbed:

Gnarls. :gap:
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2017, 04:58:28 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #838 on: Apr 25, 2017, 07:23:07 AM »
I would order a head gasket to have one around just in case...

I am super paranoid about head gaskets but if you aren't depending in the truck to DD at this point I would go ahead and try the head on engine cam swap, carefully and see what happens.  Afterward check it all the time to make sure you don't get the sweet, white exhaust or any milky oil in your crank case.  It will either work or it won't, just so long as you catch it before it can mess anything up it's OK. 

Then if your head gasket fails right away do it right.
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
– Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #839 on: Apr 25, 2017, 09:07:58 AM »
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

 
 
 
 
 

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