Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 180954 times)

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Mudder

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #840 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:24:40 PM »
It's held in place by those but the reason of the ratchet straps is you need enough pressure to keep the seal from popping. I was thinking I'd probably use two and just run one near the front of the head and the back of the head and just run the other side under the engine to the other side of the head. As for keeping tension on the chain, I've done it without and didn't have a problem. But I've also done it by using a piece of string tied to the cam gear and tied to the hood support of my truck, the ones running under the hood.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #841 on: Apr 24, 2017, 08:37:13 PM »
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.

I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #842 on: Apr 25, 2017, 04:32:27 AM »
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.



Of course its "not advisable"!  :shake:

How many things have been done by everyone here that was "not advisable"? :laugh:

It's easy to say "Just pull the head off and do it the right way." .... THAT is a huge job to me.  :thumbdown:

Doing things the "right way" or by the book is a good concept, but I've done many things that were NOT by the "book"... like NOT torquing a bolt to factory-by-the-book specs.  :blah:

We know swapping camshafts on an installed engine has been done many times without having to remove the head and re-install it.  :moon:

I have no confirmed evidence that the camshaft is causing a problem, although I have my "gut" feelings based on anecdotal experiences - mine, yours, and one other guy.  How many engbldr camshafts have you installed that proved to be defective, caused a lean fire, or simply would not work properly? :headshake:

At this point I have too many questions and not enough answers.  :disturbed:

Gnarls. :gap:
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2017, 04:58:28 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

H8PVMNT

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #843 on: Apr 25, 2017, 07:23:07 AM »
I would order a head gasket to have one around just in case...

I am super paranoid about head gaskets but if you aren't depending in the truck to DD at this point I would go ahead and try the head on engine cam swap, carefully and see what happens.  Afterward check it all the time to make sure you don't get the sweet, white exhaust or any milky oil in your crank case.  It will either work or it won't, just so long as you catch it before it can mess anything up it's OK. 

Then if your head gasket fails right away do it right.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #844 on: Apr 25, 2017, 09:07:58 AM »
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #845 on: Apr 25, 2017, 09:29:47 AM »
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.
  :rofl:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #846 on: Apr 25, 2017, 09:44:37 AM »
someone else ask did you degree in the camshaft. anytime the deck has been cut or the head shaved
the cam will be out of time slightly. an adjustable camshaft sprocket can be used to get it back into spec.
on stock cams this is not as important as aftermarket cams. if this was not done during assembly  :smack:
it could be the root of your problem. read up on youtube about how to degree a cam. the card that came with the
cam will tell you when things are supposed to happen (opening and closing of the valves). a few degrees
off can make a huge difference and aftermarket cams are more dependent on this being correct.
even if the head is new and the deck is uncut (never built one that had an undecked block) i still degree in my cams.
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #847 on: Apr 25, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »
someone else ask did you degree in the camshaft. anytime the deck has been cut or the head shaved
the cam will be out of time slightly. an adjustable camshaft sprocket can be used to get it back into spec.
on stock cams this is not as important as aftermarket cams. if this was not done during assembly  :smack:
it could be the root of your problem. read up on youtube about how to degree a cam. the card that came with the
cam will tell you when things are supposed to happen (opening and closing of the valves). a few degrees
off can make a huge difference and aftermarket cams are more dependent on this being correct.
even if the head is new and the deck is uncut (never built one that had an undecked block) i still degree in my cams.

I understand cam timing.  I don't believe cam timing is the issue.  It may be retarded 1/2 degree due to the .006" the block was cleaned. 

Degreeing the cam is a good idea.

Thanks for your input.

Gnarls
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017, 03:14:59 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #848 on: Apr 25, 2017, 10:40:33 AM »
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.

The length of time for this project has zero to do with the issues, or how to replace a camshaft without removing the head. 

Whether I over-analyze the crap out this rebuild, or do it as blind-folded retard, has nothing to do with the issues.

How I do it, or doing it "right" is subjective.

Thank you for your input.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #849 on: Apr 25, 2017, 02:53:27 PM »
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #850 on: Apr 25, 2017, 02:58:36 PM »
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.
All You have to do is remove the valve cover and cam bolt. Nothing crazy or that requires weeks of research.  :slap:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gillesdetrail

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #851 on: Apr 25, 2017, 03:21:18 PM »
Why do you think you are running lean?

If you think your cam is defective you can check the specs with a dial indicator and the specs on the cam card to see if they match. I remember one of my 22r or 20r heads also had the original cam lobes misaligned with the rockers as well, and at least one rocker wearing only on one side.


Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #852 on: Apr 26, 2017, 03:06:58 AM »
All You have to do is remove the valve cover and cam bolt. Nothing crazy or that requires weeks of research.  :slap:

Research is my hobby.  :inthedark:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #853 on: Apr 26, 2017, 03:09:56 AM »
Why do you think you are running lean?


Spark plugs color looks like a lean mixture and engine bay seems really hot on the exhaust manifold side.  It's got a little blubber at 1500 RPM, 1st gear at slack idle.   :dunno:

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017, 03:44:27 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #854 on: Apr 26, 2017, 03:29:02 AM »
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.

Hey H8PVMNT,

You can "unleash" on me anytime.... I have big shoulders... I can take it.  :smooch:

You already know, I have mentioned it, and it's well documented, the modifications you do to a carb'd engine respond VERY differently than the modifications to the EFI 22.  :thumbs:

I don't think changing (advancing or retarding) the cam timing (depending on who's profile), will be as noticeable in an effort to get power gain or better throttle response, or fuel mileage, as it will on a carb'd engine.  I think the 22RE ECU and sensors will try to keep the mixture, ignition timing, etc, within a programmed range... most likely designed to meet the emissions regulations of the 80's.  I could be wrong, but so far that's my experience and seems to be consistent with the 1000's of post I've read on the subject over the past 15 years or so, coupled with the conversations I have had with some the most respected Toyota engine builders, camshaft manufacturers, and automotive racing experts on the planet.  :smokin:

Once I get the engine running right, I do plan to do more "tweaking and testing".... an adjustable cam gear would be a nice play thing.  :D

Before I start experiment tweaking, I would like to get this engine broken in and running like I think it should.  :driving:

Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017, 03:44:13 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #855 on: May 01, 2017, 04:54:47 AM »
UPDATE May 1st 2017 AM:

I drove the truck yesterday and the noise coming from the front of the rock cover is louder.  I need to figure out what that noise is.

It sounds like a loose rocker or valve lash? It seems to be just one or maybe 2 valves, louder near number one cylinder.  I hope its not a valve, valve seat, or spring.  I will try one more time on an adjustment on the valve lash, and open the lash up a couple thousandths. 

I'm going to carefully inspect the rocker rack, lash studs on valve stem location, and remove the camshaft.  I haven't decided yet, but I am leaning towards a new camshaft from CompCams - the 252S.  At this point, I'm concerned about the overlap in the 261C, but it's just my gut feeling, past reports on this cam in a 22RE, not based on any real hard facts.

Regarding the fuel pressure regulator... it's looks impossible to R&R without removing the chamber from the intake manifold.  But, I will replace it.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #856 on: May 01, 2017, 07:14:23 AM »
UPDATE May 1st 2017 AM:

I drove the truck yesterday and the noise coming from the front of the rock cover is louder.  I need to figure out what that noise is.

It sounds like a loose rocker or valve lash? It seems to be just one or maybe 2 valves, louder near number one cylinder.  I hope its not a valve, valve seat, or spring.  I will try one more time on an adjustment on the valve lash, and open the lash up a couple thousandths. 

I'm going to carefully inspect the rocker rack, lash studs on valve stem location, and remove the camshaft.  I haven't decided yet, but I am leaning towards a new camshaft from CompCams - the 252S.  At this point, I'm concerned about the overlap in the 261C, but it's just my gut feeling, past reports on this cam in a 22RE, not based on any real hard facts.

Regarding the fuel pressure regulator... it's looks impossible to R&R without removing the chamber from the intake manifold.  But, I will replace it.

Gnarls.
If I missed it forgive me. But, did You replaced the rocker arms with the new cam shaft? Cam going flat?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Mudder

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #857 on: May 01, 2017, 08:27:11 AM »
Gnarls, I won't be able to get a look at my plugs for at little bit. Had at little accident and need to get the winch off of my truck in order to open the hood. I still strongly believe it's not the cam that's causing you problems as mine never did. After talking to H8 I figured out why I dislike this cam, the power band is narrow and it's a problem for me. 

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #858 on: May 01, 2017, 08:34:00 AM »
I replaced mine due to the :pokinit: power band.  :_oops:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #859 on: May 01, 2017, 08:55:44 AM »
If I missed it forgive me. But, did You replaced the rocker arms with the new cam shaft? Cam going flat?


There are several things you have missed.  I did not replace the rockers.  They looked good.  I will check for a flat lobe, but I don't think the rockers would cause that in less than 100 miles?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #860 on: May 01, 2017, 09:06:38 AM »
There are several things you have missed.  I did not replace the rockers.  They looked good.  I will check for a flat lobe, but I don't think the rockers would cause that in less than 100 miles?

Gnarls.
How old are the rockers You are running?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Mudder

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #861 on: May 01, 2017, 09:38:25 AM »
When you put the valve cover on what did you torque those top 4 bolts to?

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #862 on: May 01, 2017, 09:41:28 AM »
Polish them there rocker pads on a wet stone, like you use for your skinning knife. Just drag them down the wet stone covered in good honing oil until you have an um-blemished surface with all the wear marks gone.  Probably not as good as new, but you end up with a nice fresh flat surface for the cam to break into.  I tried it as an experiment and it worked just fine.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #863 on: May 01, 2017, 10:14:20 AM »
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #864 on: May 01, 2017, 01:23:47 PM »
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:

Yeah... Yeahh... I know.... at my age there's lots of "no-nos"!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #865 on: May 01, 2017, 02:41:54 PM »
Figure I should post up here since I have a similar new rebuild. Engnbldr Street RV head, 261c and the DT header. Machinist has built plenty of 22REs and said all he needed to do to my rockers was polish them a bit. Did not need to deck the block. Valve lash set to 007/009.

Anyway, I could not be happier with how this motor runs. No issues with idle and starts with a blip of the key cold or hot. It has the quietest idle out of any 22RE I have owned (10 or so at this point) and definitely pulls harder than any of them. I have about 100 miles on it so far. And it does not seem to getting noisier. Like most of us I am super familiar with the valve chatter and this just does not do it for some reason.

I have never had a fresh rebuild though to compare it to. My last truck came to me with a rebuild with 30k on it, stock head, DT and the Comp Cams 252S. My butt dyno says it did not pull as hard as this new motor, although that was 33s/4.88 and my current ride is 35s/5.29. I could not get that previous motor to have a quiet valvetrain.

I'm in CO, so I will be doing emissions on a dyno. I will report back here with how that goes. They can't really test for lean but if I have high NOx that would be a sign.

I haven't read through this whole thread but are you sure your timing mark on the damper is correct? I had that slip on an old motor once and ended up timed 10 degrees ATDC when I thought I was spot on. Caused all sorts of misses and SUPER hot exhaust.

Long story short, unless that 261 is defective I doubt changing cams is going to fix your issues.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:48:20 PM by andykrow »
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #866 on: May 01, 2017, 04:43:24 PM »
Polish them there rocker pads on a wet stone, like you use for your skinning knife. Just drag them down the wet stone covered in good honing oil until you have an um-blemished surface with all the wear marks gone.  Probably not as good as new, but you end up with a nice fresh flat surface for the cam to break into.  I tried it as an experiment and it worked just fine.

I used a fine grinding wheel on a 20R engine.....................

I've heard (not personally) of the rocker arms tapping against the valve cover....................
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #867 on: May 01, 2017, 06:03:56 PM »
Gnarls, I won't be able to get a look at my plugs for at little bit. Had at little accident and need to get the winch off of my truck in order to open the hood. I still strongly believe it's not the cam that's causing you problems as mine never did. After talking to H8 I figured out why I dislike this cam, the power band is narrow and it's a problem for me. 


I'm sorry to read about your little accident and hope everybody is OK, and your truck is not damaged badly.

Yeah.. I won't be totally surprised if its the cam, but really hoping for a simple fix.

When you do get an extra 10 minutes to pull the spark plugs, and post a good close-up, I will really appreciate it... no rush.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #868 on: May 01, 2017, 06:06:43 PM »
When you put the valve cover on what did you torque those top 4 bolts to?

Yes, this apparently can cause a problem.  I have always torqued them by "feel", and just enough to seal the gasket.  I don't see a torque spec for those 4 acorn nuts in my FSM?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #869 on: May 01, 2017, 06:09:16 PM »
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:

No, it's not like reusing lifters.

But, it's a common recommendation for the camshaft suppliers.  Is there a spec on the rocker pads?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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