Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Gnarly4X]

The sound could be alternator or water pump or power steering or AC or any of the idler pulleys........

Pull the belts off and see what happens.


How's the cat?   It could be the restriction.

Yeah....I eliminated those.  I think the sound is deeper...  A thump like one of the rods on the crankshaft?

Yeah... the cat could be plugged.  I'd have to fab a "test pipe".

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  04-09-17 PM

The catalytic converter may have been restricting the exhaust flow.  The vibration from my flat spotted tires shook the ceramic honeycomb crap inside loose. I “fixed” it.  The engine seems to rev a little easier and I think the engine bay is a little less hot.  A ceramic coated header is near the top of my list for next purchase.

There is gear oil dripping out of the little rectangle weep hole at the bottom of the bellhousing. I assume the oil is coming out the input shaft seal.  So, I’ll be dropping the tranny and t-case.

The plugs look like they are running slightly hot and lean.  So I’ll be working on diagnosing a probable lean mixture problem.  Vacuum leak, Air Flow sensor, or O2 sensor, or ?... is it normal for an engine to run lean during break-in of  freshly rebuilt 22RE?

The resurrection of my truck after 4 years of storage has more unexpected surprises than I anticipated.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

It was probably the unburnt fuel from the #1 cylinder that burned up in the cat causing your problem......

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

It was probably the unburnt fuel from the #1 cylinder that burned up in the cat causing your problem......

Sure, that's possible.  The vibrations from the tires caused the honeycomb crap inside break loose and it was rattling around inside, blocking the exhaust flow.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

After melting from excess fuel.....

 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

After melting from excess fuel.....

 

Yeah... it's possible that an overly rich mixture was getting to the cat, but the number 1 injector was not getting it's normal amount of fuel. Also, the ECU was getting input from the O2 sensor, so it should have been leaning the fuel and mixture to the other three cylinders.

And, a cat typically will get an overly rich mixture at every cold start.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel. 
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold. 

[Gillesdetrail]

When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel. 
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold. 

Yes, I hope that does not cause a ring seating issue! From the pictures of the plugs, why they look lean and hot to you? I see a rich mixture , possibly too much timing , and perfect heat range.

The base ring looks sooty, unless that is oil deposits from the rings not being fully seated, the discoloration triangle on the ground strap looks too close to the threads, it should be in the middle of the curve on the ground strap, and there is no brown ring on the tip of the porcelain. The burn marks seem to go up 2-3 threads which shows optimal heat range. Not sure if I'm seeing correctly or if it's the picture.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Yes, I hope that does not cause a ring seating issue! From the pictures of the plugs, why they look lean and hot to you? I see a rich mixture , possibly too much timing , and perfect heat range.

The base ring looks sooty, unless that is oil deposits from the rings not being fully seated, the discoloration triangle on the ground strap looks too close to the threads, it should be in the middle of the curve on the ground strap, and there is no brown ring on the tip of the porcelain. The burn marks seem to go up 2-3 threads which shows optimal heat range. Not sure if I'm seeing correctly or if it's the picture.

This is a fuel injected engine. Reading spark plugs is from the carb Days. Open that FI book I recommended to You.
You can monitor the air fuel ration while its happening. https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=RDxF4tX4ZY8
There is no need to read the plugs. 
Also, You need much more time on those plugs to accurately get a readling. 

[Gillesdetrail]

This is a fuel injected engine. Reading spark plugs is from the carb Days.

  Completely forgot about that when replying. You can still get a good reading after 150 miles, but there is so much more to reading a spark plug than taking them out and looking at them closely, it is a deep skill that I don't have and unfortunetly one that is lost through time. Nothing better than a wideband o2 reading.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel. 
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold. 

Perhaps.. but I have a different thought…

First, my engine is most likely not operating at peak tune.  I don’t know for sure if the O2 sensor is working properly.  I don’t know for sure if the ECU is receiving the correct range of data input from ALL of the sensors.  I don’t know for sure what ECU “sees” and calculates if the 6 degrees of overlap (as indicated by engblr’s cam spec sheet for the 261C), very tight valve lash, and its profile.

Since shortly after I first fired the engine and immediately determined number cylinder was not firing the mixture, the number 1 plug appeared to “wet” with gas. So, is it possible that the O2 sensor WAS seeing a rich mixture and leaning out the mixture by shortening the two injector pulse time?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold. 

So, are you saying that a rich mixture.. high unburned gasoline content.. does not "effect" the cat's designed purpose?  OR.. that a rich mixture does NOT effect the cat and break down the honeycomb??

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.    It will see all the O2 from the unburnt cylinder and interpret that as lean.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Completely forgot about that when replying. You can still get a good reading after 150 miles, but there is so much more to reading a spark plug than taking them out and looking at them closely, it is a deep skill that I don't have and unfortunetly one that is lost through time. Nothing better than a wideband o2 reading.

Good discussion... I enjoy getting into the weeds a little.

I am long ways from any expert spark plug reader... but...

I don't believe that the spark plugs have ANY clue when they fire the mixture inside a combustion chamber whether it comes from an injector or from the venturi and jets from a carb.  The spark plugs also have no clue how many miles on there is on the engine.  So reading a spark plug from and FI engine or a carb'd engine will most likely show the same "reading" analysis.  For the past 40+ years I've owned, maintained, and tuned both carb'd engines and FI engines, and the spark plugs can be reasonably accurately read based on basic visual color and plug electrodes and ceramic analysis.

Yes, a wide-band A/F gauge would be a great diagnostic and analysis tool.  I believe reading spark plugs today is probably more of lost art than it was 40 or 50 years ago.  I don't read many posts where a guy actually pulls his plugs to "see" what's going on with the mixture.  However, I don't think reading a spark plug to determine the results of basic combustion conditions going on inside of the chamber is that difficult.

In my "non-expert" opinion, the plugs looked like they were seeing a lean mixture and perhaps running a little on the hot side.

But with that said, I will happily defer to any expert opinion out there.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.    It will see all the O2 from the unburnt cylinder and interpret that as lean.

Perhaps I'm confused on how the O2 sensor works??

If number 1 injector was pumping or dribbling raw gas into the chamber and not firing (my wet #1 spark plug), would that unburned gas reach the O2 sensor? 

A rich mixture has less O2 (oxygen), so the O2 sensor sees a rich mixture, and sends the appropriate current to the ECU to shorten the injector pulse time to the chamber.... making a lean mixture.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

The mixture didn't burn in #1 cylinder.    All that unburned O2 mixes with the other cylinders making the overall mixture look lean.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The mixture didn't burn in #1 cylinder.    All that unburned O2 mixes with the other cylinders making the overall mixture look lean.

The raw unburned gasoline has no O2, the vapor has some O2.  Whatever amount of air (mostly nitrogen) that was being pumped into exhaust manifold from number 1 cylinder was NOT enough to make the mixture look lean to the O2 sensor.

The spark plugs were not getting a rich mixture.  Please explain what the O2 sensor was seeing?

BUT.. that is history... I need to know why the chambers, based upon my thinking that the spark plugs look like they are seeing a lean mixture, are getting a lean mixture?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

HOT TIP:  When the tranny and t-case is dropped and it's not a freshly rebuilt transmission....

REPLACE THE INPUT SHAFT SEAL!! 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.

A misfire (chamber not firing the mixture) can be caused by several things, right?...

No spark = no fire
No fuel = no fire
Too much fuel = no fire
No air = no fire
Too much air = no fire
Too low compression = no fire
Ignition timing too far off = no fire

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

A misfire (chamber not firing the mixture) can be caused by several things, right?...

No spark = no fire
No fuel = no fire
Too much fuel = no fire
No air = no fire
Too much air = no fire
Too low compression = no fire
Ignition timing too far off = no fire

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?

Gnarls.

I won't attempt to break all that down.
In the simplest terms the 02 sensor does one thing and one thing only. It measures the amount of Oxygen in the exhaust. Nothing more nothing less. It will not and never has measured fuel. I am sure you could find an incredible amount of information on line if your interested. also there is another sensor called an A/F sensor it looks the same in almost every way but works off of amperage and not voltage. Don't get them confused.
When a cylinder misfires it is still pumping oxygen into the exhaust. Oxygen in the exhaust is interpreted by the ecu as a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel. Its very simple if you remember that the 02 sensor only measures oxygen.

[emsvitil]

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?

NONE

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

NONE

OK.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  4-16 PM

I removed and inspected the cold start injector.  I did not do the spray test, but it passed the resistance test.  I disconnected the battery for about 1 hour just to see if resetting the ECU and clearing any codes might help.

This time I shorted the Injector Test plug to turn on the fuel pump before starting the engine.

I *might* install a momentary push button switch under the dash to manually turn the fuel pump on before starting the engine.

It started much easier and quicker, but still does not do a fast idle.  I rechecked the ignition timing and it’s right on.

I will recheck/test the other sensors, and readjust the Throttle Position Sensor.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

I added a LARGE capacitor across the injector test plug so that it primes the system before starting the truck..........

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I added a LARGE capacitor across the injector test plug so that it primes the system before starting the truck..........

Hey emsvitil,

Can you please elaborate a little more on that?

Am I correct in understanding that if you short the test connector, it will power the fuel pump?

Thanks you.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Hey emsvitil,

Can you please elaborate a little more on that?

Am I correct in understanding that if you short the test connector, it will power the fuel pump?

Thanks you.

Gnarls.

Correct.

With large capacitor, the fuel pump will run until the capacitor gets charged up.    Cheap timer.

I got capacitor from surplus store for $2.    Large is something like 20,000 MFD

[Snowtoy]

UPDATE:  4-16 PM

I removed and inspected the cold start injector.  I did not do the spray test, but it passed the resistance test.  I disconnected the battery for about 1 hour just to see if resetting the ECU and clearing any codes might help.

If you rig up a momentary toggle switch, you can test the cold start injector off the engine, still attached to the fuel line, to determine if it is operating correctly.

You can also use the toggle switch to fire the cold start injector, prior to a cold start, this will help to determine if your hard cold start issue is due to a sensor or the new cam.  If it fires right up, the timer switch sensor or water temp sensor is likely failing, even though they tested fine.  I just went through this with my '90 3.0.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Remember the valve you removed and decided not to mess with. The one we both searched for a write up on.
That is the cause of your not having a fast idle at start up.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE THURSDAY, APRIL 20:

I'm still frustrated with the engine.  It won't start like it should, and idle. The after it warms up it idles about 1100 RPM.  I still have to do some tests, but I'm REALLY beginning to NOT like this RE!!

I get to go though the "Oh-boy-let's-see-if-Gnarls-can-figure-out-what-MamaECU-and-her-ugly-sisters-are-PMSing-about!" crap.

Well.... my flat spotted tires are gone…. and so is a big chunk out of checking account!! 

Discount Tire just put a set of these on…

[H8PVMNT]

You should do a BFG KO2 (not running a spool) review.