Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[OVRAROK]

http://gasgacinch.com/
This is the original and best stuff You can get. It's a Mechanic's secret. 
You won't find it in a store. 
I have looked. 
Every shop I have worked at uses it. 
They have technical instructions For You to look at Gnarly 

I've been using this stuff since the 80s. Napa auto parts always has it in stock

[:)bestgen4runner]

No.

What's the shelf life once it's been opened?

Years as long as the cap is screwed back on tight.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Yeah.. I've used gaskacinch in the past.  I haven't used it for awhile... don't get very many chances.

I think it has limited use on a 22 rebuild.  If were R&R'ing frequently, it does have a faster clean and prep. 

As we know, everyone has their favorite goop and methods.... if it ain't broke.. don't fix it.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  12-31-17

I will NOT get my Toyota parts until Tuesday afternoon, so I will install the new rear crank seal on Wednesday and hopefully get the tranny back in and everything hooked up again.  If the new clutch disc is oiled, I will have to order another one and that means I won’t get it back together until next Sunday, possibly the following Wednesday.

I spent 2 hours of foreplay with my truck today.

I got the truck up on jack stands and unbolted the anti-sway bar.  I removed the shifter bezel, shifters, starter, disconnected electricals and speedo cable, unbolted the slave cylinder, removed the grease shield, drive shafts, and cross member, strapped tranny to tranny jack and supported the end of the tranny.

Tomorrow I will unbolt the bell housing and drop the transmission & t-case, pull the pressure plate and flywheel and check out the leak.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  1-1-2018

https://imgur.com/a/mZWoi


I had the tranny dropped in 40 minutes and the PP, clutch, flywheel, and flexplate off in another 10 minutes.

Now I’m REALLY exasperated.     

The oil appears to be transmission gear oil – NOT MOTOR OIL.  I had my wife with her super nose sniff motor oil from the dip stick and the oil sitting in the bottom of the bell housing. She said there is a difference.   

There is no evidence that motor oil is leaking around the crank seal or seal housing. 

The engine side of the flywheel is completely dry as is the engine side of the clutch disc and pressure plate.   

There appears to be a very light film of oil on the tranny side of the pressure plate and clutch disc.

If it is transmission gear oil (Mobil 1 synthetic), I have not figured out yet HOW and WHERE it is leaking from, but it is most likely coming from the input shaft seal or seal housing gasket, or bolts.  Where else could transmission gear oil come from? 

I’ll take the bell housing off and see if the input shaft seal is defective or damaged.

I cannot image myself taking any better precaution or doing anything differently to insure the very best installation of the new Toyota factory seal and gasket? 

The Toyota God’s may be punishing me for some reason!!?? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  JAN 1, 2018 PM

https://imgur.com/8qwjeYd

https://imgur.com/sed4TZe

I removed the bell housing and the seal housing.  There was gear oil inside the shaft tube where the TO bearing rides.  The new seal is definitely leaking gear oil.  None of the bolts were leaking any gear oil and the gasket and Ultra Grey seemed completely sealed.

The input shaft boss where the seal rides has no perceptible groove from wear that could cause the seal to allow gear oil passed it.

I mic’d the ID of the housing tube, the boss on the input shaft, and made a close guess on the inside diameter of the contact area of the seal.  I determined that the seal ID, where it rides on the boss of the input shaft, is only about .009” to .010” smaller diameter than the boss.  My guess is that the seal is allowing gear oil to pass, get onto the input shaft and sprayed inside the bell housing, onto the clutch fork and out the hole.

Since the parts guy ordered it based on my VIN #., it is unlikely it is the wrong seal.

I ordered a National and an SKF seal from Rock Auto. I will compare the three seals.  I will order the gasket from my Toyota dealer tomorrow, and I will cancel the crank seal order.

I will polish the input shaft boss.

I'm not sure yet about the clutch disc.

Gnarls.

[300k]

The oil appears to be transmission gear oil – NOT MOTOR OIL.  I had my wife with her super nose sniff motor oil from the dip stick and the oil sitting in the bottom of the bell housing. She said there is a difference.

really? it doesn't take a super nose to smell gear oil lol. gear oil is really just unpleasant to say the least.

[redneckcustoms13]

Is that seal in backward gnarls? Sure looks like it to me.

[redneckcustoms13]

Ok, i was curious enough that I just pulled a front off a w56. Your seal is in backward.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

really? it doesn't take a super nose to smell gear oil lol. gear oil is really just unpleasant to say the least.

Hey 299k,

You need more experience with gear oil.

I have Mobil 1 Synthetic in it.  It smells way different than dino based gear oil.

My noise is not nearly as good as my wife's sense of smell.

I once lost a bet to her.  In a blindfolded test, she can smell the difference between her favorite gin and two other different brands.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Yep, it's backwards.   

Didn't notice that the first time I looked.


Spray the pressure plate, flywheel and clutch disk with brake cleaner.

Then I'd boil the clutch disk in boiling water.

[emsvitil]

Gear oil doesn't smell as much as it used to.

[redneckcustoms13]

Should look like this. Found it on Google mine was way dirty

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

When I went to install the new one, I looked at both sides and decided it would be very difficult to insert it into the housing without damaging it.  I also recalled that the old one was installed the same way?? 

There's no excuse for my incompetence, but it's not the most bone-headed thing I've done while working on my trucks.  It's interesting that most of these type of seals are almost always installed the same way... BUT I can see how this seal needs to be inserted into the housing with the cups facing the source of the gear oil.   

I am happy to get this leak fixed. 

redneckcustoms13... I owe you big time for catching that and your help will come back to you!! 

I can add that to my list of "How to FUBAR a seal without even trying"!!

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Yep, it's backwards.   

Didn't notice that the first time I looked.


Spray the pressure plate, flywheel and clutch disk with brake cleaner.

Then I'd boil the clutch disk in boiling water.

OK, thanks. 

I'm surprised you didn't catch that.. you are always on forum alert!! 

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

I'm glad it was something simple.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I'm glad it was something simple.

Yeah... me too.  I'm going to bed tonight wondering why in all my years of installing seals.. this one has to be installed BACKWARDS!!  It never even occurred to me.  And, I am feeling like a ree-tard, but relieved that I know why it was leaking... it was bugging the crap out me.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

What does the FSM mean - EXACTLY - with the Oil seal depth:

.449” – 0.472” from retainer end?

https://imgur.com/EUAlUD4

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

I normally look at the sea depth before removing. I also look for witness marks to indicate seal depth.
fsm as a last resort. I think it refers to the bearing retainer.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I normally look at the sea depth before removing. I also look for witness marks to indicate seal depth.
fsm as a last resort. I think it refers to the bearing retainer.

What does Toyota mean by “retainer end”?

The bore area where the seal sits has a depth of .490” from the edge of the bore face to the inside of bottom face before the chamfer face.

If I insert the seal into the seal bore so that the bottom of the seal is sitting .462”, which is about half way between the spec, I would have to insert it so that I can measure .152” from the seal lip to the edge of the bore face (.310 + .152 = .472”).  the bottom face of the seal will be sitting about .018” from being full seated to the bottom of the bore.

However, logically, the “measurement” for the spec of .449 to .472” would be attainable by measuring the top of the lip of the seal from the edge of the top of the seal bore.

But...if the “from retainer end” is the gasket surface, .462” would still be within possible spec range.  Because… from the gasket surface on the housing to the top of the bore is .350”. Inserting the seal, which is .310” thick, into the bore so the top edge of the seal will be .112” for the top edge of the bore, it will add up to .462”.

The .310” thick seal only rides on the input shaft boss area of .350”.  The seal appears to have 2 angled rubber contact surfaces.

I have ordered another seal and gasket from my Toyota dealer, and should have by Friday, and will have the two others (SKF and National) that I ordered from RockAuto, by Tuesday.  I’m just curious how they look, material, and measurements. 

https://imgur.com/cd29gi5

https://imgur.com/yWFKcBq

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

I think I just pushed it in until it bottomed, that way I knew it was straight.

What's the thickness of the machined bore (no chamfer) ?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I think I just pushed it in until it bottomed, that way I knew it was straight.

What's the thickness of the machined bore (no chamfer) ?

Hey Ed,

Yep… I agree.  That seems logical.

I realize I over analyzed this seal deal, and I do it more or less for fun, as I enjoy getting into the weeds.  I am not an engine builder, and just a backyard DIYer.  My 14 Toyotas have not given me much chance to practice my auto mechanic skills, so I find myself scratching my head from time to time.  It would be interesting to know what other typical rubber shaft seals are out there that are installed *inverted* from the other 99%?

But… over the years, pouring over service manuals, I have found misinformation, typos, and specs that don’t make sense, and torques specs I disagree with.  When I come across one, in the past I have posted my experience.

The other thing we have learned is that you need to be careful about the information posted on the web… much of it is simply misinformation, anecdotal with no proof, or completely bogus.

The bore depth, seat face to top edge of bore is .490”.  The bore diameter is 1.762”.  The seal diameter is 1.781.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  01-14-18

EDITED: 1-14-18 Added Timken
EDITED:  1-9-18- Added Source and SKF comments

DISCLAIMER: The following is my unscientific opinion based upon only my measurements and visual construction, plus about 50+ years as an automotive DIYer.  It may or may not be an accurate evaluation of the performance and function of these 4 seals, manufactured by 4 different brand names and/or sources. I have never compared these 4 seals in actual transmission use or evaluation.

For 1986 Toyota SR5, XtraCab, 22RE, W56B Transmission INPUT SHAFT SEAL.

Timken 1981 – Rock Auto - $5.13 - total with shipping - $8.12
National 1981 – Rock Auto - $4.49 (not including shipping)
SKF 11615 – Rock Auto -  $4.42 (not including shipping).. with shipping for both seals total - $14.89
Toyota 90311-30115 – Toyota Dealer – (List - $14.75 – my price $9.05 (net)

National – O.Diameter - 1.781”, Thickness - .3140”, Spring Dia -.0690”, seal weight - .3 oz
SKF –       O.Diameter – 1.780”, Thickness - .3130”, Spring Dia - .0525”, seal weight - .4 oz
Timken –  O.Diameter – 1.778”, Thickness - .3115”, Spring Dia - .0805”, seal weight - .4 oz
Toyota -    O.Diameter – 1.780”, Thickness - .3150”, Spring Dia- .0790”, seal weight - .5 oz

SOURCES: SKF is designated made in USA, National is designated made in Mexico, Timken – not designated, Toyota – not desgnated.

The *Toyota seal appears identical to the photo in the China Manufacturing site: https://syqp.en.alibaba.com/product/60337857446-802175123/30_45_8_FACTORY_OIL_SEAL_NOK_AE1679H_Nissan_Part_No_32114_Y400.html
*It also shows (Nissan part) the exact same part number on the seal as the Toyota seal.

The measurement of the inside Diameter was difficult to get accurately because of the rubber seal would flex.  I set the caliper for 1.125” for the very lightest feel for the SKF.  I then pushed the calipers inside the other three.  The Toyota was slightly tighter feel.  So the SKF appears to have a larger inside diameter than the National and Toyota. The Timken was very similar to the SFK.

The springs that are providing clamping around the inner most seal contact on the shaft boss are significantly different. The spring for the SKF was very weak and easily popped off and on. The spring for the Toyota seal was noticeably stronger, obviously had more clamping pressure, and took more force to remove and re-install into the seal than the National or Timken.  The Timken spring was slightly less easy to pull off than the SFK. The way they are connected is different.  My ounce scale only has a resolution to 1/10, so the seal weight is only accurate to 1/10 of an ounce.

The SKF seal has no rubber around its metal case, explaining its weight.  I am curious about the green coating on the outside surface where it would contact the diameter of the bore hole.  I suspect it is a thermal sealant to bond it to the housing.  Paint would not seem necessary since there would virtually no moisture in the housing  to cause metal oxidation.  However, it could be coated to prevent rust from the point of manufacturing to installation.

The Toyota seal is better designed and constructed and is superior to the other three.  The SKF, National, and Timken seals do not have nearly as much rubber material in their design. The Toyota and Timken seals have 2 rubber surfaces that will make contact with the input shaft, providing more sealing function.  The Timken seal is very similar in design to the Toyota seal with 3 angles of contact areas, and I assume has been designed to prevent the gear oil from slipping through the seal onto the spline area of the shaft under different conditions – low temperature thru high temperature gear oil. The Toyota and Timken seals have chamfered outside edges, I assume for allowing easier installation into the bore. On the Toyota seal, rubber main seal area where the spring sits is much thicker and stiffer than the other 3 seal designs.   

The photos are difficult to see a good visual comparison. The Toyota seal has 3 surfaces that look they will contact the shaft.  The 3 contact areas are what looks like a 30*, a 45*, and an 8* in that order from the inside of the seal to the face that would be bottomed to the housing bore.  This is what I believe this description refers to:

https://syqp.en.alibaba.com/product/60337857446-802175123/30_45_8_FACTORY_OIL_SEAL_NOK_AE1679H_Nissan_Part_No_32114_Y400.html
The damaged one is the one I removed and appears to be a Toyota factory seal, although its design looks slightly different than the new one. It was very brittle.

MY CONCLUSION:
The Toyota seal appears to be the best design and construction.  The SFK seal appears to be a weak and poor quality design and construction. If a Toyota seal was not available, I would buy and install the Timken seal.

PHOTOS:  https://imgur.com/a/mHnQQ

Gnarls - that's just my opinion - it may be worthless.    

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  1-15-2018 PM

I am ready to put the exhaust pipe back on the exhaust manifold and I have to deal with a crack in the collector.

I was not planning to buy a header just yet.  I wanted to get my engine really tuned and then take it to the speed shop and have it dyno’d.

I can see that the exhaust pipe looks like its leaking.

https://imgur.com/iJOnjp8

I can get my hands on anther stock exhaust manifold, or just go straight to the header and 2.25” exhaust… geezz… that’s a good $700 or $800!! 

Does anyone have a good stock 22RE exhaust manifold sitting around they want to donate? 

This restoration is taking longer and costing more than I had imagined, but I’m going to get it done the way I want it. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

https://imgur.com/ttLV5wf

[H8PVMNT]

I have a couple but none of them have the O2 sensor bung.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Thank you OVRAROK, redneckcustoms13, H8PVMNT, and anyone else who was looking to help me with a replacement for my cracked stock exhaust manifold.

I have bit-the-bullet and ordered a Doug Thorley header. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I spoke to the owner of the muffler shop that is going to do my exhaust system after I get the DT header.  He recommended a MagnaFlow muffler and 2.25” tubing.  I’m getting excited!! 

So.. I’m curious how much more torque I am going to get out of my newly rebuilt after heating up my Visa card with an $800 ding!!?? 

When I finally get this engine tuned the way I think it should run, I’m going to have my truck chassis dyno’d. 

Gnarls 

[redneckcustoms13]

I dont want to rain on a parade... but here goes it. The header on a 22re is like puting chrome wheels on your Toyota. It looks good. Ive ran pace setter, Hedman, Doug, Downey, and hooker; all that I have noticed is a more raspy exhaust tone, a fuzz more low end and 2 fuzzies more top end while mid range didn't seem to change. The dougie is by far the nicest of the options. I mainly ran them due to having them available and knowing they had to be an upgrade over the stock manifold.

My 81 is what I would call 90% factory being that the only things not oem from 1981 are the oil filter, air filter, belts, and front bumper. It has just as much grunt and just as much interstate as the 83 did before the 3rz swap. The 83 had a hooker, then Hedman, then Doug, then finally pace setter before pulling in leu of 3rz. Each had their own manners. None of the manners being something to brag about other than the lack of exhaust leak that came from a factory cracked manifold.

Maybe you will notice a seat of the pants improvement. Maybe the lack of cubic dollars in the checking account will make you feel cubic power. I would bet on seeing at the wheel hp maybe a 2~3hp gain if even that. A 22re is what it is. That is reliable, mechanically simple, and tough. No where in that description was powerful mentioned. Sure LCE can sell you a 200 hp 22re. How long will it last? At what rpm does it make that power? Not trying to go off on a tangent and start a fuss over it. I'm simply saying in my few years of experience with the 20/22 engines I would not expect a massive gain from changing exhaust.

My $.02 it may be worthless

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

...
My $.02 it may be worthless

This may surprise you, but I agree.  And, I always enjoy reading about others' experiences.

My first 22RE had a custom made DT header (they didn’t have one for a 22RE automatic).  The power increase was very noticeable, especially at highway cruise RPMS... but it wasn't HUGE.

On my 1985 stock 22R the DT header and exhaust was VERY noticeable. 

I have said before, I think the ECU and sensors in the 22RE will modulate the AFR, ignition timing, and injector functions.  Because it does that, the affect of certain modifications will not be as noticeable as with the carb’d engine.  That’s MY experience.

Now… regarding incremental power increases… in my experience even a 1 or 2 lbs of torque and 1 to 2 HP when raising from a stock 96 or 116 HP engine to say 100 or 120 HP has been noticeable to me.  For me, if I can get 2, 4, or 5 more lbs. of torque at 2500 to 3500 RPMs, I will be happy with my $800 and 3 hour investment.  That difference and increase means that I don’t have to shift down to 4th gear when climbing an upgrade at freeway speeds…. And I expect a slight increase in fuel mileage.

Because I don’t recall ever seeing a certified dyno test to actually see how much, if any, increase in torque and HP and at what RPMs a header and exhaust does over the factory stock manifold and exhaust, I just go on my butt dyno.

Of course, my experience is very limited compared to some of you guys out there.

Gnarls.