Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[redneckcustoms13]

I'm glad you read it the way I intended it to be read. Not bashing the idea, not saying it's a piss in the wind. It's not a supercharger or nitrous. It will make a slight difference. No doubt about it. Like you said 2hp increase on 116hp is much better than a 2hp increase on a 300hp engine. 800 worth idk. I know that 158hp (3rz) is night and day over the 116hp 22re. Maybe s few hp will do just the trick for your application. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

.... 800 worth idk....

Back in 2000, when a DT header was about $230, and an exhaust system was about $300, and a torquey cam was about $100, I believed that for less that $700 I could gain about 10 or 12 HP out of my stock 22R... just an educated guess.

As a basically bolt-in and a bolt-on modification, I believed that it was definitely worth the dollars and time invested!

Gnarls.

[andykrow]

I remember having basically the same conversation about exhaust with Ted @ engnbldr. His opinion was that the stock 22r exhaust manifold was actually very well designed and already basically a Tri-Y, especially if you can find one of the earlier designs where the downtube is two pipes for a foot or so. (or collector? not sure what you call it when there's no turbo... the pipe after the manifold.) His advice was to stick with that, then go to a 2" pipe, then a 2.25" cat and 2.25 pipe the rest of the way with a straight flow muffler like a Magnaflow. He was saying the headers mostly help at super high rpm racing applications. But they won't hurt performance either, so if the stocker is cracked and you have the money, might as well make the engine bay pretty.

I have done that exhaust setup once, and I have recommended this to a handful of friends with these trucks and there is a seat of the pants improvement. Of course they are generally getting rid of an ancient cat and the stock muffler, so it's hard to say where the gain came from. One benefit of the stock manifold is quiet under the hood. The DT makes a ting-ting-ting sound that is sort of annoying.

Gnarly - the 11225 Magnaflow is the one you want. Longer body, center in and offset out. Not very ricey once it settles in a bit, although I have to have a cat so that makes my setup a little quieter. You should be able to find the 11225 for $80 or so. Good luck!

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I remember having basically the same conversation about exhaust with Ted @ engnbldr. His opinion was that the stock 22r exhaust manifold was actually very well designed and already basically a Tri-Y, especially if you can find one of the earlier designs where the downtube is two pipes for a foot or so. (or collector? not sure what you call it when there's no turbo... the pipe after the manifold.) His advice was to stick with that, then go to a 2" pipe, then a 2.25" cat and 2.25 pipe the rest of the way with a straight flow muffler like a Magnaflow. He was saying the headers mostly help at super high rpm racing applications. But they won't hurt performance either, so if the stocker is cracked and you have the money, might as well make the engine bay pretty.

I have done that exhaust setup once, and I have recommended this to a handful of friends with these trucks and there is a seat of the pants improvement. Of course they are generally getting rid of an ancient cat and the stock muffler, so it's hard to say where the gain came from. One benefit of the stock manifold is quiet under the hood. The DT makes a ting-ting-ting sound that is sort of annoying.

Gnarly - the 11225 Magnaflow is the one you want. Longer body, center in and offset out. Not very ricey once it settles in a bit, although I have to have a cat so that makes my setup a little quieter. You should be able to find the 11225 for $80 or so. Good luck!

I am anxious to get this engine tuned, exhaust and header installed and get a couple 1000 miles one it, then get it dyno'd.

I will check with the muffler shop and see what MagnaFlow they recommend.

With the head, OS valves and cam, the DT header should help and be noticeable.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

My understanding of headers is that the longer they are the lower the rpm that they are effective at. In my Camaro the long tube header was like 42 inches and ran pretty much to the cat under the floorboards on each side.

[emsvitil]

The rule for mufflers is the biggest that will fit.

If you get a muffler for a large luxury vehicle, it will be quiet and have plenty of flow.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

On the topic of header and exhaust modifications on a 22RE, I don’t recall ever seeing a certified dyno test report (engine or chassis) specifically comparing the factory stock exhaust to any other aftermarket exhaust system, including a header and exhaust tubing, cat, and muffler.  Those tests may be out there? 

If I go strictly by what some aftermarket suppliers tout about their performance upgrades for the 22R and 22RE, like a cam, over-sized valves, head, header, larger exhaust tubing, muffler, cat, etc, I can make some assumptions about what I might expect. 

I suspect the 22RE’s ECU and reporting sensors, along the limiting stock fuel injectors, will keep the actual increases in torque and HP number to about 5 to 7 lbs of torque and 7 to 10 HP for a mild total modification and conservative monetary investment - targeted for drivability and reliability.  Can you get more torque and HP for a specific RPM range – of course.

I believe a head with over-sized valves, torquey cam, header and exhaust upgrade in a 22R will produce an increase of about 10 HP more than the same upgrades to 22RE -- about 125 HP for 22RE, and about 135 HP for a 22R.   

So… for my truck, on a chassis dyno (just my speculation), I might see 100 to 106 HP at the rear wheels.  And I hope to find out sometime in the near future. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

The rule for mufflers is the biggest that will fit.

If you get a muffler for a large luxury vehicle, it will be quiet and have plenty of flow.

Hey emsvitil,

Yes, I've heard that.  The space under the bed, between the underside of the bed and the bottom edge of the frame rail is the limiting factor.  The Toyota stock exhaust pipe, cat, and muffler is lower than I want it for wheeling.  On both my first 86 and on my 85, I had the exhaust tucked up as could be reasonably done.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

...
Gnarly - the 11225 Magnaflow is the one you want. Longer body, center in and offset out. Not very ricey once it settles in a bit, although I have to have a cat so that makes my setup a little quieter. You should be able to find the 11225 for $80 or so. Good luck!

The muffler that my shop mentioned, I think, is this one:

https://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=14355&searchTerm=14355

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

I like dynomax super turbo mufflers.

If you want to go the large, quiet route look at these:  (dynomax quiet-flow)

https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/walker-quiet-flow-mufflers

It's a bit of a pain, as you have to search for the size you need.


And look up 'quarter wave resonator exhaust'

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I like dynomax super turbo mufflers.

If you want to go the large, quiet route look at these:  (dynomax quiet-flow)

https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/walker-quiet-flow-mufflers

It's a bit of a pain, as you have to search for the size you need.


And look up 'quarter wave resonator exhaust'

Dynamax is a good muffler.  I have usually run the cheaper turbo mufflers.  The cats and mufflers I've tried usually go bad, start rattling after a couple years of wheeling every other week end.

The MagnaFlow has a life time warranty... it will be interesting to see how many miles it will go.

Fortunately I've never experienced an exhaust drone problem in any of my vehicles - even with Thrush side pipes on my '67 Vette.

Gnarls.

[andykrow]

The muffler that my shop mentioned, I think, is this one:

https://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=14355&searchTerm=14355

Gnarls.

Nice, I've only played around with the 11 and 14 inch versions. My 11225 is plenty deep in tone, seems like the 14355 should be even better

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Nice, I've only played around with the 11 and 14 inch versions. My 11225 is plenty deep in tone, seems like the 14355 should be even better

Hey andykrow,

If you look under your Runner where the muffler would be positioned, you will probably see a plate about 18” long and about 6” wide.  That is a heat shield.  I believe the factory stock muffler was an 18” core.  The muffler I have on my truck now is a 13” Cherry Bomb Turbo.

https://cherrybomb.com/project/16808cb/

It sounds OK. 

When I spoke to my muffler shop, I told the owner what I wanted – no ricey rap, low throaty tone, and relatively quiet - he said “2.25 pipe and 18” MagnaFlow".  The 22RE, in a mostly stock form, is sensitive to going too large on the exhaust. I have experienced it, and several other guys I know also had the same experience – the drop is low end torque (off idle to about 2500 RPMs) is very noticeable.  Again, my interest in increased performance is TORQUE in the 2500 to 3500 RPM range.

And by the way, I like the sound of the DT header.  The “ting” sound is not loud enough to bother me. 

Yes…a ceramic coated Doug Thorley header attached to my head “looks” really NICE under my hood! 
 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:   1-20-18PM

https://imgur.com/hitnVED

Wow… I ordered this on 1-18 and it’s on my door step on 1-20..shipped Fed-X!!  Summit indicated during my online order that they were out of stock on this part number and DT was going to fabricate one for a February delivery directly from the factory in Corona, CA.

It looks really nice.  I like the silver ceramic coating.

It does have an interesting design.  The bung for the O2 sensor is located on the “Y” for cylinders number 2 and 3.  Since the firing order is 1-3-4-2, the O2 sensor will be sensing every other combustion cycle.  It’s also interesting that cylinders number 2 and 3 are the two inside cylinders.  I have to assume that some automotive exhaust genius figured out that those two cylinders and their exhaust flow will provide the best balanced “feedback” to MamaECU and subsequent injector pulse data. 

I’m very anxious to get this installed and my truck over to the muffler shop.

Gnarls. 

[blackdiamond]

UPDATE:   1-20-17PM

https://imgur.com/hitnVED

It’s also interesting that cylinders number 2 and 3 are the two inside cylinders.

What's interesting about this?  It's only logical that you would number them from one end to the other resulting in 2 and 3 being the inside cylinders.  I'm sure I'm completely missing what you're saying...

[emsvitil]

Before you put it in,  measure

1.   Primary tube diameter and length
2.   Secondary tube diameter and length
3.   Collector tube diameter and length.
4.   Merge angles


Might help for some understanding on header design....

 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

...  I'm sure I'm completely missing what you're saying...

C’mon blackdiamond…  of course!!  Yes, you may have completely missed what I was questioning.

The bung could have been located on the “Y” tube for cylinders number 1 and 4… the two outside cylinders. 

It would be interesting to know why - if anything technically relevant to the O2 sensor, the cylinder exhaust/combustion, or firing order - the bung is located on 2 and 3. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Before you put it in,  measure

1.   Primary tube diameter and length
2.   Secondary tube diameter and length
3.   Collector tube diameter and length.
4.   Merge angles


Might help for some understanding on header design....

 

I can do that. 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

C’mon blackdiamond…  of course!!  Yes, you may have completely missed what I was questioning.

The bung could have been located on the “Y” tube for cylinders number 1 and 4… the two outside cylinders. 

It would be interesting to know why - if anything technically relevant to the O2 sensor, the cylinder exhaust/combustion, or firing order - the bung is located on 2 and 3. 

Gnarls. 

In theory all four cylinders should function identically.  The tubes are set up such that the two cylinders being collected are not in order allowing time for the exhaust to pass before the next round.  I would assume that they chose the bung location because it was on the outside pipe and by having it in a tube with only two cylinders allows it to measure the exhaust during a fire and also in the "pause" giving reading over the entire spectrum.

[emsvitil]

Probably just for O2 sensor accessibility when the header is in the truck.........

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Probably just for O2 sensor accessibility when the header is in the truck.........

Yes, I thought the same thing.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

With the O2 sensor that far down the tubes, I'd consider retrofitting a heated sensor (3 wire is fine) if you haven't already for low speed/idle driveability.

I put a 3wire in my stock manifold and it helped (for replacement of a no-name brand sensor)

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

In theory all four cylinders should function identically.  The tubes are set up such that the two cylinders being collected are not in order allowing time for the exhaust to pass before the next round.  I would assume that they chose the bung location because it was on the outside pipe and by having it in a tube with only two cylinders allows it to measure the exhaust during a fire and also in the "pause" giving reading over the entire spectrum.

Interesting...

I see a potential failure with only sensing and reporting 2 cylinder exhaust gases.  If cylinder 1 or 4 has a combustion issue… ignition, fuel mixture, compression, valve leak, head gasket leak, will the ECU “see” it? 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

With the O2 sensor that far down the tubes, I'd consider retrofitting a heated sensor (3 wire is fine) if you haven't already for low speed/idle driveability.

I put a 3wire in my stock manifold and it helped (for replacement of a no-name brand sensor)

Yes, I think this has been done on a 22RE.

I need to do more research... I believe Roger Brown, 4Crawler, has posted some incredible info on this stuff.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Interesting...

I see a potential failure with only sensing and reporting 2 cylinder exhaust gases.  If cylinder 1 or 4 has a combustion issue… ignition, fuel mixture, compression, valve leak, head gasket leak, will the ECU “see” it? 

Gnarls.

No

[emsvitil]

Another modification.

I'd add a ground wire to the O2 sensor flange bolt to make sure you have a good ground.

[:)bestgen4runner]

If you want to do it right.
You will need to have an o2 sensor bung installed after the collector. This way your Ecu will have an accurate sample from all 4 cylinders.
I have run that header both ways. Provided location and downstream.
Down stream required the addition of a heated 02 sensor but once completed ot works much better and more accurate.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If you want to do it right.
You will need to have an o2 sensor bung installed after the collector. This way your Ecu will have an accurate sample from all 4 cylinders.
I have run that header both ways. Provided location and downstream.
Down stream required the addition of a heated 02 sensor but once completed ot works much better and more accurate.

Hey bgen,

Yeah, that makes sense. 

I assume that this header design has been installed in 1000s of engine since the 22RE was introduced in Toy trucks.  If there was some kind of issue regarding O2 sensor mis-readings due to only reporting 2 cylinders, I think it would be known.

So... for now I'm going with what it is and monitor any codes or other strange things.

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

Happy late birthday gnarls

[:)bestgen4runner]

Hey bgen,

Yeah, that makes sense. 

I assume that this header design has been installed in 1000s of engine since the 22RE was introduced in Toy trucks.  If there was some kind of issue regarding O2 sensor mis-readings due to only reporting 2 cylinders, I think it would be known.

So... for now I'm going with what it is and monitor any codes or other strange things.

Gnarls.

I will reserve the right to say “I told You so”
For the ? Third time? Maybe fourth time?