Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Lewis Hein]

My bed light switch rocks vertical and has a different style than those.

So does mine.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE MARCH 28 2018

Got the A/C refilled after sitting and not used for almost 5 ½ years.  NO leaks so far.  My A/C guy converted it to R134a and filled it for $156 out the door.  R12 refill would have been $400+.

The Idle up won’t work when the A/C is switched on.  I suspect the VSV switch on the rocker cover. 

I'm about to order a new on from 22RE Performance.

https://22reperformance.com/intake-exhaust-vacuum/ac-idle-up-vacuum-switching-valve

The fan clutch is shot.  It’s only got maybe 3000 miles on it.  It’s O’Reilly Chink junk!!  I haven’t decided to switch to LCE’s electric fan kit, or just buy a Beck Arnley or Aisin replacement.  The Toyota dealership wants $180 and it’s a special order.

Question:  Has anyone installed LCE’s electric fan kit for 22RE and what are your thoughts on the electric fan conversion?
The kit looks very complete and easy to install.

https://www.lceperformance.com/Electric-Fan-Kit-20R-22R-RE-Pickup-1975-1983-Cel-p/1093003.htm

I did some quick research and one issue with the Ford Taurus fan (suggested by my A/C guy) is the amps it draws, and I don’t want to have to fiddle with mounting, wiring, switching, and thermo-control issues.

So if I install an electric fan, the alternator gets a good work out constantly with the added amp draw.  I don’t know what the amp draw is for the LCE fan kit.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Gnarls

[300k]

The fan clutch is shot.  It’s only got maybe 3000 miles on it.  It’s O’Reilly Chink junk!!  I haven’t decided to switch to LCE’s electric fan kit, or just buy a Beck Arnley or Aisin replacement.  The Toyota dealership wants $180 and it’s a special order.

Question:  Has anyone installed LCE’s electric fan kit for 22RE and what are your thoughts on the electric fan conversion?
The kit looks very complete and easy to install.

I have this. My fan was all chunked out from getting into the shroud and radiator, plus my fan clutch was useless. I looked around and liked the idea of eliminating the fan clutch all together. LCE claims more horsepower (less HP absorbed), but it's safe to call BS for any noticeable gains.

Maybe you can also look into this

[blackdiamond]

Make sure that any new fans will be campatible with the rest of your engine.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Well.... I jumped and made a decision for right now, I ordered an Aisin Fan Clutch from 22RE and the VSV.   

It is predicted up to 90 by Friday... time to turn on my newly charged AC!!!   

I'm not going to electric fan. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I have this. My fan was all chunked out from getting into the shroud and radiator, plus my fan clutch was useless. I looked around and liked the idea of eliminating the fan clutch all together. LCE claims more horsepower (less HP absorbed), but it's safe to call BS for any noticeable gains.

Maybe you can also look into this

Well.. I don't really care about the gain.  My AC guy suggested electric fan because they apparently cool better and he said that cooling really effects the pressure in the AC system which can make it not work or blow hoses.  In all my trucks I never had an electric fan and never had a problem with the AC systems unless the compressor failed or developed a leak. 

Jim at 22RE made a great point... if the electric fan fails for whatever reason... your engine could be toast quickly, or you just don't start it again until the fan is working.  The fan clutches do fail, but do not typically stop turning completely.

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

What is r143a?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

What is r143a?

It's R134a with an alpha-character transposition effect caused by IPUADAT!!   

IPUADATs are way too common in textual communications. 


Gnarls. 

[redneckcustoms13]

Didnt know if it was some new version of r12 or something.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Didnt know if it was some new version of r12 or something.

My AC guy was telling me about the new R1234yf.  Holy crap!  It costs $900 to $1500 to refill a new vehicle's AC with that stuff!!

Some environmental PhD radical academia "expert" scientist is probably behind that stuff!!

I remember when I could by a can of R12 at Pep Boys - on sale - for 49 cents a can!!!!

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I ran an electric fan for a while and I wasn't impressed.  It worked fine but I did have the wires get messed up once.  No big deal to fix but I agree with Jim as far as reliability and limp it home theory.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Consider adding an auxiliary fan. I added one to My 4runner and am extremely happy with it. I recommend the yoshimitsu brand. There is info on My build page. Make sure You reverse the fan direction so it doesn’t fight against your clutch fan. I highly recommend this. Let Me know if you need any info.

[:)bestgen4runner]

you can buy r12 on ebay which is what I would have done in your shoes. I myself still have a case of 12.
 r134a uses higher pressure and a completely different oil. to do it right you have to flush the entire system, change all the o-rings and as far as i'm concerned use a different compressor made for 134a. wouldn't be a bad idea to put a larger 2 piece 4runner condenser in as well. a 134a converted system made for r12 will never blow as cold as an r12 system unless it's done right which involves a lot of parts and labor. On average, a condenser would need to be 30% larger on a converted system to achieve similar cooling performance.

I have done the conversion many times. As long as you replace the dryer with a 134 one and do the calculation for the correct amount of 134 vs R12 it works great. In the rare occasion that it is unable to keep up with cooling demands the addition of an auxiliary fan commanded on with the compressor cycle make it perfect.
R12 is still the best but is now to expensive for most customers. I always recommend retrofit over to 134.

[:)bestgen4runner]

have you done the conversion in Arizona? That weather will test the limits

Nope
I’m sure it would
Like living in Hell.

[300k]

Well.. I don't really care about the gain.  My AC guy suggested electric fan because they apparently cool better and he said that cooling really effects the pressure in the AC system which can make it not work or blow hoses.  In all my trucks I never had an electric fan and never had a problem with the AC systems unless the compressor failed or developed a leak. 

Jim at 22RE made a great point... if the electric fan fails for whatever reason... your engine could be toast quickly, or you just don't start it again until the fan is working.  The fan clutches do fail, but do not typically stop turning completely.

Gnarls.

I am pretty much against running an E fan on my own truck. I don't want some chinese relay, switch, or fan motor deciding if my engine is cool or not. I don't know about your AC guy IMO. If you're having cooling issues, grab a V6 radiator from NAPA and LCE sells a 190° 2 stage thermostat. Should keep the 22RE plenty cool. With the 22R, you have options for 180° (what I have) and 160° thermostats. I hope to have a V6 radiator and maybe waterless coolant when I get it running again.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

I did the conversion to r134 and it works great, no regerts. The electric fan is a good idea, do a quality job wiring it and put a shut off switch on it like Besgen did in case you get in deep water

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I am pretty much against running an E fan on my own truck. I don't want some chinese relay, switch, or fan motor deciding if my engine is cool or not. I don't know about your AC guy IMO. If you're having cooling issues, grab a V6 radiator from NAPA and LCE sells a 190° 2 stage thermostat. Should keep the 22RE plenty cool. With the 22R, you have options for 180° (what I have) and 160° thermostats. I hope to have a V6 radiator and maybe waterless coolant when I get it running again.

The degree designation on a thermostat is what coolant temperature the thermostat begins to open.  It does not designate flow or what coolant temperature the engine will run at when up to normal temperature.  An incorrect thermostat temperature can mess with sensors. 

Gnarls.

[300k]

The degree designation on a thermostat is what coolant temperature the thermostat begins to open.  It does not designate flow or what coolant temperature the engine will run at when up to normal temperature.  An incorrect thermostat temperature can mess with sensors. 

Gnarls.

well if you have a dumb little Efan on the radiator that doesn't change anything either unless you're stopped and the thermostat is open. I suppose it would be nice to set up a E fan like a modern day fan. The coolant temp gauge in Old Red has a wire coming off it that will kick on an E fan at any temperature you want, so it's not on while you're moving down the highway. You don't have to worry about switching it off and then forgetting to switch it back on either.

the 190° 2 stage from LCE opens fully 5 degrees Fahrenheit before the stock thermostat, and is compatible with the 22RE. I think it's a good idea for Arizona and takes a few minutes to change out.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

well if you have a dumb little Efan on the radiator that doesn't change anything either unless you're stopped and the thermostat is open. I suppose it would be nice to set up a E fan like a modern day fan. The coolant temp gauge in Old Red has a wire coming off it that will kick on an E fan at any temperature you want, so it's not on while you're moving down the highway. You don't have to worry about switching it off and then forgetting to switch it back on either.

the 190° 2 stage from LCE opens fully 5 degrees Fahrenheit before the stock thermostat, and is compatible with the 22RE. I think it's a good idea for Arizona and takes a few minutes to change out.

How in the heck did MILLIONS of Toy trucks manage to survive before LCE's t-stat??

Gnarls.

[300k]

How is the heck did MILLIONS of Toy trucks manage to survive before LCE's t-stat??

Gnarls.

L.C. Engineering has been around since 1985 and officially as a business since 1995...so Toyota 4x4 trucks as we know them were around 10-15 years old. Now they're up in the 30-40 year old range, and could probably use a newer, improved thermostat. Plus with all that global warming, it's much hotter than it was 30 years ago

[:)bestgen4runner]

The LCE thermostat they offer is a Toyota updated part. Its called out for in a very old TSB.
I have a copy of it at work. I can post a picture of it if You guys are interested. Also the part is still available from Toyota. That’s where I got mine.
It’s a good idea to use it and the cost is low.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

I forgot where you live gnarly but and electric fan is not a bad choice. especially if you like to hit the trails. not much air travels through the radiator and condenser at low speeds. If you want nice a/c performance and added insurance on keeping your engine cool, do it! so yes, the dumb little efan that most every production vehicle runs now a days is worth it. its not to keep the engine cooler than intended its to help shed heat when its hotter than intended or if wired up properly could also be trigger to come on when a/c clutch is engaged. also if your a/c idle up vsv isn't getting the ground or power signal (forgot which one is control) there is an a/c amplifier behind the glove box that has an adjustable rpm activation nob/screw so you can change when the idle up vsv kicks on, assuming you have a 22re again I don't remember what u have...

[79coyotefrg]

Wow, it must be nice to have a factory tach in your rig.
My DLX 5 speed Xtra-Cab has no tach so I'm way up there in rpm getting on a freeway but, off road the revs stay under 2500 pretty much all the time.
It is the 2nd 22R engine in the truck and I bought the long block from eBay for $1100.00 delivered. I've since rebuilt the head with Viton rubber valve guide seals.
I'm not easy on any vehicle so the engine has to work hard on the road getting to a trail and she gets really bad gas mileage while on the highway and great mileage on the trail. I am good to my engines though and they get a lot of oil changes and valve adjustments happen twice a year.
The bad is because the 22R has no balls and cannot get out of her own way even going downhill with gale force wind at her back but, on the trail my little 22R putts along using almost no fuel under 2000 rpm.
I had my original 22R short block bored 30 over and was going to build it but, my buddy needed an engine for his 2wd street truck so I sold it to him for cost of work done and it is running really well with the new http://enginebuilder.com head & rv cam set up. Wish I would have spent the money for the head & cam but, I am going to buy the cam next month and then maybe she will get up the hill without me dropping her down into 3rd gear.

I would say your engine is either damn close to being wore out or the cam timing is off a tooth

[79coyotefrg]

For a poorly designed bad flowing head on top of a 4 cylinder engine as stout as a 22R, 112 or 113 at the wheel isn't enough for daily driver use as far as I am concerned but, off road this is more than enough and I'd be happy with those numbers.
I just got home from a 100 miles round trip up the Grapevine to get another bed load of used Toyota parts and if my rig had that 113 rwhp, I'd be able to do 80mph up the hill in 5th gear but, no. I have to shift down in to 3rd and ring her neck to barely cruise at 55 mph and then she'll do 83 mph coming down the hill with the wind at her back which is kind of scary in such a lightweight and high profile vehicle.
Another 25 hp @ the wheels would give my rig enough to go up the hill in high gear.

best keep her in 4th to keep a little engine braking going on.  if you blew a tire they'd be mopping you up with a bucket.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I forgot where you live gnarly but and electric fan is not a bad choice. especially if you like to hit the trails. not much air travels through the radiator and condenser at low speeds. If you want nice a/c performance and added insurance on keeping your engine cool, do it! so yes, the dumb little efan that most every production vehicle runs now a days is worth it. its not to keep the engine cooler than intended its to help shed heat when its hotter than intended or if wired up properly could also be trigger to come on when a/c clutch is engaged. also if your a/c idle up vsv isn't getting the ground or power signal (forgot which one is control) there is an a/c amplifier behind the glove box that has an adjustable rpm activation nob/screw so you can change when the idle up vsv kicks on, assuming you have a 22re again I don't remember what u have...

I've always liked keeping things simple.  One of the really nice advantages of the early Toy trucks is their simplicity.  I have NEVER had an over-heating issue with my vehicles unless the t-stat stuck, radiator rotted out, or a head  gasket/head failed.  Here is AZ even in mid July when we had a 120d F temperatures my trucks always ran only slightly above 185 with the A/C full blast.  Here in AZ even in the summer months, 4-wheeling at crawl speeds, I never had an over-heating problem.  I ran a 3 core in my 85 and could not tell any significant difference from the stock 2-core. 

I understand the advantage of the electric fan, it should reduce the wear on the water pump, reduce parasitic drag from the stock fan, and allow better control of cooling at all speeds, but if the fan motor fails to spin, then what?  Also, with the electric fan there is the added current draw that the alternator sees constantly, which does cause some drag on the engine.

Seems like over the years I read WAY more discussions about electric fan issues than stock non-electric fans and fan clutches.

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein]

I understand the advantage of the electric fan, it should reduce the wear on the water pump, reduce parasitic drag from the stock fan....Also, with the electric fan there is the added current draw that the alternator sees constantly, which does cause some drag on the engine.
Gnarls.

A touch of applied physics comes in handy here. Let's assume that the two fans are equally efficient at moving air for the same amount of input power. (if the E-fan blades are better, just put them on the engine).

OK a certain amount of air has to be moved through the radiator to keep the engine cool. This means that a certain amount of power must go into turning a set of fan blades to make the air move. Maybe that power comes through a belt, or maybe it comes through a belt, alternator, wire, and motor.

No system is 100% efficient, including the alternator and fan motor. So for the same amount of air movement, that LCE E-fan will actually increase parasitic drag and make you lose horsepower.

The only exception to this is when you wouldn't need the stock fan turning anyway and the e-fan can be turned off. But how often does that happen?

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

Ok then, sounded like u were interested, I guess your not interested anymore, hahaha.  As a side note, if you want to know how much max load should be on a particular automotive circuit I was taught it's 1/2 the fuse rating and then subtract 10%.  Example 20amp fused circuit should draw about 9amps max.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

A touch of applied physics comes in handy here. .... So for the same amount of air movement, that LCE E-fan will actually increase parasitic drag and make you lose horsepower. 

Hmmmm... I don't see any "physics"?  The amount of drag (added energy consumption in amps) on alternator would most likely be less than the drag caused by the stock fan on the water pump.  Also, the e-fan will be more efficient at moving air at ALL speeds of a moving vehicle.

>>>> advantage e-fan!!

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein]

Hmmmm... I don't see any "physics"?  The amount of drag (added energy consumption in amps) on alternator would most likely be less than the drag caused by the stock fan on the water pump.

I respectfully disagree.

The engine is the only source of power in the car. To spin a fan that pulls air through the radiator, the power turning that fan MUST be generated by the engine.

We are discussing two possible ways for the power to go from the engine to the fan blades.

1) Crankshaft->belt->countershaft->fan clutch->fan. This is the factory setup. I am not counting efficiency losses in the countershaft, because it drives the water pump which must be driven anyway. I'll get to the fan clutch in a minute.

2) Crankshaft->belt->alternator->wire->motor->fan. This is the LCE setup. This is similar to the factory setup, except the power is transmitted through an alternator, wire, and motor. Assuming (generously) that the alternator and motor have 90% efficiency and that losses in the wire are negligible, this setup has 81% of the efficiency of the factory setup for a given amount of airflow. Some sources [1] suggest 60% efficiency tops for the alternator, in which case the e-fan is only 54% as efficient.

In other words, for a given CFM going through the radiator, the LCE setup probably uses at least 23% more power, but probably more like 85% more.

Yes, I know, you're probably wondering where the fan clutch went. I ignored it because it is supposed to lock up when the engine is warm, thereby removing itself from the equation.

Also, the e-fan will be more efficient at moving air at ALL speeds of a moving vehicle.

The efficiency of a set of spinning fan blades does not depend on what is making them spin. If the blades on the E-fan are better designed, put them on instead of the factory ones.

One detail has been omitted. An E-fan will have an advantage if you can get by with substantially less airflow. Assuming the more realistic figure for the efficiency of the LCE setup, that means you have to be able to reduce airflow by 85% to break even.

[1] https://www.intechopen.com/source/html/38166/media/image3_w.png

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Lewis,


    I have no idea where you are pulling your numbers from?    ..... I have suspicion though 

With all due respect, think your numbers are sucking air somewhere.   

Gnarls.