Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188565 times)

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emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1620 on: Apr 26, 2018, 08:53:14 PM »
The red knob is what's interesting to me, doesn't seem like something that should need adjusting, also looks like something that can only be accessed by removing cover?

There's variances in the thermisters and the circuits in the AC amplifier.    And mounting the thermister on the evaporator will also get some variances in temp readings.

You can either play it safe and have no adjustments with a high default setting (say 40) or be able to get down to the 34 in which case you'll need some means to fine tune for production variances.
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1621 on: Apr 27, 2018, 04:55:27 AM »
WellÖ Iím glad you all figured this out.  Iím very glad that my A/C shop really does know what they are doing (I would have been shocked to learn that the shop owner pulled a funny on me!)

Over the years on these forums, Iím always blown away what I have learned from the forum members willing to share their knowledge or experience.

Strangely, in all the years Iíve had auto A/C work done on my vehicles, no one ever mentioned anything about these ďknobsĒ, or any of the adjustments they will do, until my A/C guy showed me as he made the adjustment, and told me about the RPM adjustment under the dash.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1622 on: Apr 27, 2018, 04:57:20 AM »
I have this info from mud

Wow!... that's great tech!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1623 on: Apr 27, 2018, 04:57:50 AM »
MY 86 FSM only says:


AIR CONDITIONER AMPLIFIER

INSPECTION OF AIR CONDITIONER AMPLIFIER

Check Engine Speed Detecting Circuit

(a)  Run the engine, and operate the air conditioner
(b)  Check that the magnetic clutch disengages at the specific revolution.

Cut-off rpm: 600 - 700 rpm

If the cut-off rpm is too high, turn the adjusting knob clockwise to adjust.
If the cut-off rpm is too low, turn the adjusting knob counterclockwise to adjust.


And there's a B&W diagram pointing to the blue knob


Great tech!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1624 on: Apr 27, 2018, 06:07:08 AM »
I'm also glad to learn about this 2nd adjustment for the future.  I don't need to mess with it as my A/C r134 works great.  In fact I had to turn it off yesterday cause I got chili.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1625 on: Aug 01, 2018, 09:12:47 AM »
UPDATE AUGUST 1, 2018

My 22RE rebuild now has 10,600 miles on it, mostly freeway at an average of 75 MPH.

Itís burning 1 quart of oil about every 600 miles.  Iíve tried 20w-50 to see if it will reduce the consumption, it did not.

There is no blow-by and no exhaust smoke that I can see.  The oil does get dirty quickly, so Iíve change the oil and filter about every 2,000 miles.

I have consulted with several engine builders and a very reputable Toyota engine builder.  The information I have now seems to point to bad piston rings, and specifically the ones from the DNJ rebuild kit supplied by engnbldr.  The rings apparently have some history, at least with one Toyota engine builder, of being poorly manufactured and not having enough tension to properly seal with the cylinder walls.

My local machine shop that machined the block also micíd all the bearings, rods, pistons, and crank, and I paid them to set up and check all specs and tolerances.  I did not mic or check those measurements myself.  I did not verify the RA for the cylinders, I did not plasti-gauge the crank bearings after getting the block back from the shop.  That was a mistake.  Trust but verify!!!!!

I took my time and assembled the engine carefully, so I cannot imagine where I might have made a mistake in the assembly that would cause the amount of oil consumption I am experiencing.  I believe the break-in procedure was carefully followed based upon the machine shop, who builds race engines, and the break-in procedure as described by Tod at engnbldr, and Jim at 22RE Performance.
 
The engine is performing very well with lots of torque and power.  The current gas mileage averages about 18 MPG with 95% freeway at 75 to 80 MPG, burning 87 Octane fuel.  Since the gear ratio puts the RPM at about 3200 for 80 MPH in 5th gear, I cruise most of the time on the freeway 5 days a week for my 75 mile trek back and forth to work between 3000 and 3200 RPM.

It still has the cold start issue, which I have not fixed.  It does not want to start like my other 22RE did.  I have to crank it about 4 or 5 times for 5 seconds each time before it will start and then it does not want to idle at 750 or 850 RPMs until a minute or two.

I have readjusted the valve lash now about 4 times.  The exhaust valves with the engnbldr 261C Crawler cam, go tight about .002Ē inch, which causes a rough idle similar to a lopy cam.  I assume the added overlap is creating a problem for the ECU.

The spark plugs are very clean and donít appear to have any unusual carbon build up.  The last two compression checks were within spec.

Since I donít know for sure why itís burning so much oil, I will have to pull the engine and do a complete inspection and analysis to see if the cause can be determined.

Of course I am extremely disappointed.  At this point, my tentative plan is to store the truck again in my garage until I can have an engine built by Jim at 22RE Performance. Since the lead time for a long block is about 32 weeks out, I will have some time to save up some money and slowly continue to work on my list of restoration items for this project.

I have not been able to reach Tod or Ted at engnbldr for comment.  I do not want to make any assumptions, accusations, or point any fingers at the machine shop, any manufacturer, or any source for parts until have some facts or professional assessment and determination on the cause of failure.

With that said, all the main engine rebuild parts were supplied by engnbldr.  I ordered the parts from Tod because of engnbldrís history of reputation and Todís very generous sharing of his knowledge and support before, during, and after I assembled and fired the engine.  Their very attractive pricing was also a consideration.  I found the rocker cover gasket and grommets to be poor quality (ordered Beck Arnley replacement from RockAuto), I have two freeze plugs leaking some coolant, and Iím concerned and puzzled why the exhaust valve lash is going tight after about 3,000 miles on several exhaust valves.

Based upon my experience and my discussions with professional engine builders, going forward, I will only buy and use absolutely top quality parts from sources that have top notch reputations for quality and service.

Since I am obviously NOT a competent DIY engine builder, from now on I will do more intensive research before choosing parts, manufacturers, and sources.  Or.. just pay to have a competent professional build my stuff.

Gnarls. :gap:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1626 on: Aug 01, 2018, 02:13:54 PM »
Have you done a compression and leakdown test?

You may be able to isolate problem cylinder(s) before you take it apart.
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1627 on: Aug 01, 2018, 05:30:52 PM »
you check your pcv and vent hoses? check for vacuum or pressure with gauge at dipstick tube...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1628 on: Aug 01, 2018, 06:03:05 PM »
More intensive research?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1629 on: Aug 01, 2018, 06:38:40 PM »
Didn't you have a rich or lean fuel problem in the first moments of running the engine that could have affected ring seal? How can it be burning this much oil and not have sooty spark plugs?

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1630 on: Aug 02, 2018, 06:05:17 AM »
Didn't you have a rich or lean fuel problem in the first moments of running the engine that could have affected ring seal?

Hi G,

Yes.  The number 1 injector was not firing during initial firing of the engine.  At that point, I could not run the engine long enough to properly break in the cam shaft.  I replaced the injector connector at the wire harness.  BUTÖ I donít think that issue would cause the oil consumption Iím having.

Quote
How can it be burning this much oil and not have sooty spark plugs?

Thatís a great question.  I cannot figure out why I donít see some excessive carbon (oil burn) on the spark plugs?  Or... some blow-by or exhaust smoke under heavy throttle.   I will be happy to pull the plugs and post a photo again.

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1631 on: Aug 02, 2018, 06:22:52 AM »
More intensive research?

Hi bd,

20/20 hindsight Ö yes I should have spent more time preplanning and doing more research with the ďexpertsĒ, then have more facts and valid information to decide the ďcost vs quality vs timeĒ outcome.  I made a snap decision to start the rebuild.  I could have just ordered a long block from 22RE Performance (that was one consideration).  I wanted to do the rebuild myself, since I had not completely rebuilt a 22 before.  My other failure was not completely measuring, checking and verifying ALL machine work (bore, RA) and ALL bearing tolerance specs before assembly.

With that said, I donít believe that would have prevented me from unknowingly installing defective or poor quality pistons or rings.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1632 on: Aug 02, 2018, 06:28:43 AM »
 
you check your pcv and vent hoses? check for vacuum or pressure with gauge at dipstick tube...

Hi E,

I installed a new pcv valve and vent hoses.  I did not check for vacuum or pressure at the dipstick.  I could do that, and I would suspect there will some crankcase pressure.  If I measured a vacuum or a pressure, what would it tell me?

Gnarls. :dunno:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1633 on: Aug 02, 2018, 06:38:08 AM »
Have you done a compression and leakdown test?

You may be able to isolate problem cylinder(s) before you take it apart.

Hi e,

I have done several compression tests.  I have not done a leak down test, and that is probably a good idea before tearing the engine down.  At least it could pinpoint the condition of valves/seats, rings, cylinders, head gasket, and any unusual issues with the new head.

ButÖ. I still have to rebuild the engine to fix it.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1634 on: Aug 02, 2018, 07:38:06 AM »
I don't have actual specs, but at idle you should see zero to a sliver of vacuum. Basically it's a quick check to see if you have engine vacuum or positive pressure.  You could take off the oil cap too and see if alot of vapor/smoke is coming out...  It's just hard to believe that an engine after 10k is worn out, I like to believe it's something else.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1635 on: Aug 02, 2018, 11:36:56 AM »
Hi bd,

20/20 hindsight Ö yes I should have spent more time preplanning and doing more research with the ďexpertsĒ,.......................

The last thing you needed to do was more research prior to the rebuild, :greengrin: I think he was referring to what is causing your oil loss now before you decide it is the rings.  As mentioned do a comp/leak down test, that should give you an idea of the conditions of the rings.

Quote
I have done several compression tests.

What do the numbers look like?

If you are burning a quart of oil in 600 miles, the exhaust tube should be sooty as well, didn't you run a new exhaust, might pull the cat and see what the leading tube looks like as well as the cat. My '86 beater that likely runs more hours than miles a year around my property doesn't loose that much oil, and it looks like every oil gasket on it has a leak.

...........  It's just hard to believe that an engine after 10k is worn out.............

Same here, even Chicom pop metal rings should last longer than that.


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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1636 on: Aug 03, 2018, 06:12:40 AM »
...  It's just hard to believe that an engine after 10k is worn out, I like to believe it's something else.

Hi E,

The oil consumption has been about the same since I rebuilt it.  I also am very curious to find out what is causing it.  I believe there are only 2 ways cranckcase oil can get into the combustion chambers.

Gnarls. :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1637 on: Aug 03, 2018, 06:25:41 AM »
The last thing you needed to do was more research prior to the rebuild, :greengrin: I think he was referring to what is causing your oil loss now before you decide it is the rings.  As mentioned do a comp/leak down test, that should give you an idea of the conditions of the rings.

What do the numbers look like?

If you are burning a quart of oil in 600 miles, the exhaust tube should be sooty as well, didn't you run a new exhaust, might pull the cat and see what the leading tube looks like as well as the cat. My '86 beater that likely runs more hours than miles a year around my property doesn't loose that much oil, and it looks like every oil gasket on it has a leak.

Same here, even Chicom pop metal rings should last longer than that.


Hi S,

I just ordered a Leak Down Tester.  I will do a leak down test and another compression test and report the results.

I did not have the larger exhaust tubing installed.  The cat has been removed, so I'm running the stock exhaust tubing behind the DT header.  The exhaust pipe does look sooty.  The are zero oil leaks, so the oil is being burned.

The amount of oil that is being burned is most likely coming from the crankcase, not from the top end.  Since at least one Toyota engine builder has seen this kind of oil consumption on a fresh rebuild in Toyota engines caused from bad rings made in China.  I was told that rings simply do not have enough tension to adequately seal them against the cylinder walls.... and may not be a proper metallurgical composition. 

I have spoken to a reputable Toyota engine builder who said that excessive burning can be problem when CHROME rings are installed  (instead of MOLY rings) with the improper RA/hone being machined in the block cylinder walls.  But I don't know how much oil consumption there would be in that case?

If the valve guides/seals were leaking there should be some smoke at startup...  again, I don't see any smoke or blow-by???

If I ever rebuild another engine, I will be anal+ about measuring and mic'ing every piece before and after machine work, and measuring the cylinder bores and RA, before assembly!!  I will not 100% trust the machine shop.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 03, 2018, 06:56:58 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1638 on: Aug 03, 2018, 07:03:16 AM »
Just to add.  I built a motor about 15 y.a.  my first.  It burnt oil about like yours, if not worse.  I just ran castrol gtx.  Anyway, long story short, eventually had ringlands fail and completely destroyed the motor.  At the same time i got 100+k out of it.
I had used total seal rings. I did spec them when installed.  I believe they had a bit too much expansion which eventually caused the ring or ringlands to fail.
hold this. . .

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1639 on: Aug 03, 2018, 07:07:35 AM »
the 3 most common I know of are rings, valve seals, and too much positive crankcase pressure.  Mark your drain plug, maybe there is an oil thief!

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1640 on: Aug 03, 2018, 02:12:19 PM »
If I ever rebuild another engine, I will be anal+ about measuring and mic'ing every piece before and after machine work, and measuring the cylinder bores and RA, before assembly!!  I will not 100% trust the machine shop.

Gnarls.


You believe the rings are bad.....poor quality....how would measuring catch this?
Not being a jerk just trying to understand/learn   :driving:
CB

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1641 on: Aug 03, 2018, 02:35:06 PM »
Have you tried the compression test with ATF in the cylinders?
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1642 on: Aug 03, 2018, 04:52:32 PM »
If it's the rings, you  might be able to rehone cylinders and just get good rings.
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1643 on: Aug 03, 2018, 05:16:57 PM »
http://engineproblem.com.au/engine_problem/details/5.html
I would also bore scope the engine and look for ring wash. I suspect this will be very evident on one piston. My guess is cyl #3 or #4.
Also one good scratch in the bore can also lead to oil consumption. Did You experience any issues installing one piston?
Read the part about the hone marks gone.  :twocents:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1644 on: Aug 03, 2018, 05:50:54 PM »
Or you lined up all the ring end gaps, lol.  Gnarly installing his pistons like- https://youtu.be/D0n8N98mpes

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1645 on: Aug 04, 2018, 07:47:04 AM »
Or you lined up all the ring end gaps, lol.  Gnarly installing his pistons like- https://youtu.be/D0n8N98mpes

Yep... that's me!!.... BUT... I'm wack'n those ignorant Democratic Socialist millennials!!!  :gap:

Gnarls.  :D
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1646 on: Aug 04, 2018, 07:52:18 AM »
http://engineproblem.com.au/engine_problem/details/5.html
I would also bore scope the engine and look for ring wash. I suspect this will be very evident on one piston. My guess is cyl #3 or #4.
Also one good scratch in the bore can also lead to oil consumption. Did You experience any issues installing one piston?
Read the part about the hone marks gone.  :twocents:

Hey BG,


Yes, I want to that block and all parts inspected, diagnosed, analyzed, and  checked out by a pro, measured, recorded, and try to find out the truth and facts on this engine rebuild failure.  Whether it's my incompetence, machine shop's bad machining, defective parts, Chinese junk, or just plain bad luck.

No, I didn't have any issues with the assembly.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1647 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:02:27 AM »
If it's the rings, you  might be able to rehone cylinders and just get good rings.

Hi e,

Yep... I could get by with just a rehone, new rings or new rings and new pistons.  BUT... since that will require me pulling the engine and completely disassembling it, I might as well just rebuild it from scratch.  One "backyard mechanic" guy where I work suggested I "drop the pan, unbolt the rods, pull the pistons and re-ring them.  That would be huge risk.  What if that does NOT solve the problem? What if its a piston problem?  What if the cylinders were over-bored by a .001".  What if the RA was wrong?  What if the cylinders are glazed?...   I'm trying to mitigate any further waste of time and money!!

This engine is coming apart and then I'll decide if I will rebuild it, or just donate the block for a core charge.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1648 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:05:20 AM »
Just to add.  I built a motor about 15 y.a.  my first.  It burnt oil about like yours, if not worse.  I just ran castrol gtx.  Anyway, long story short, eventually had ringlands fail and completely destroyed the motor.  At the same time i got 100+k out of it.
I had used total seal rings. I did spec them when installed.  I believe they had a bit too much expansion which eventually caused the ring or ringlands to fail.

Hmmm... interesting.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1649 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:07:30 AM »
Or you lined up all the ring end gaps, lol.  Gnarly installing his pistons like- https://youtu.be/D0n8N98mpes

I was anal about the ring alignment.  BUT....I have a question???  Do the rings rotate or move at all around the piston or do they stay in the position that I put them in according to the piston manufacturer?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 04, 2018, 07:18:03 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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