Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188977 times)

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EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1860 on: Feb 25, 2019, 07:17:52 PM »
Dont use factory head, aluminum is very porous

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1861 on: Feb 27, 2019, 02:57:34 AM »
Dont use factory head, aluminum is very porous

OK... I'll ask John tomorrow what he knows about the 10,000 Toyota factory heads he has seen.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1862 on: Feb 28, 2019, 07:09:32 AM »
Buddy, years ago, did a head gasket on his 4runner 22re to solve a coolant leak issue, had oem head sent out.  He installed it and after very little time he was using coolant again.  Now, im not sure if he had known cracks before in it, but he chopped it in half with band saw and it revealed alot of erossion from electrolysis and showed how porous the head was inside the cast...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1863 on: Feb 28, 2019, 08:21:14 AM »
Buddy, years ago, did a head gasket on his 4runner 22re to solve a coolant leak issue, had oem head sent out.  He installed it and after very little time he was using coolant again.  Now, im not sure if he had known cracks before in it, but he chopped it in half with band saw and it revealed alot of erossion from electrolysis and showed how porous the head was inside the cast...

Hey E..

Yes... the factory head, at least in my 1985 22R head, did have erosion caused from electrolysis.  The head shop showed me where on the head the corrosion appears to cause a problem... it's the water port next to the #3 chamber that was cracked and corroded.  The head deck also had pockets of corrosion and eroded surface.  If I remember correctly it just over 200K miles on the engine when I did the head job with rebuilt head and new stock camshaft.  I did not replace the rocker rack at the head job.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1864 on: Feb 28, 2019, 01:56:03 PM »
UPDATE FEB 28 2019


I spent about 1 hour with the owners of Phoenix Cylinder Head Service, Import Specialists, John and Greg.  John has been building cylinder heads for over 35 years…. I trust his opinion and expertise.

John confirmed my gut feeling and suspicion that something was NOT right with the valves.

Here’s his inspection, measurements, testing, and results:

The engnbldr head included in the DNJ Rebuild Kit:

The head had no markings that would identify it as a DNJ head. 

The engnbldr 261C camshaft is a factory cam that has been reground, interestingly stamped “DNJ”

The exhaust valve springs were not symmetrical, warped or bent.

None of the 4 exhaust valves were sealing.

The exhaust valve faces were sitting into the seat so far that only the very outer edge of the valve face was contacting the seat… That explains why the exhaust valve lash was going tight!

Whoever assembled the head did not check the valve angles and the seats/valves were not ground properly to provide the critical valve to valve seat seal. 

The faces of the exhaust valves were pitted badly with carbon from being over heated.

Although there is no confirmed evidence of valve float, the #1 exhaust valve stem could have over heated and seized in the guide.  There is no visual evidence of valve to piston contact.

He looked and inspected my original factory head, but it was slightly warped (I overheated the engine in 2013), and would have to be decked requiring a shim or thicker head gasket and heat straightened.  So for the cost of rebuilding the factory head or rebuilding the engnbldr head would be more than if he buys a new bare head and installs his choice of springs, seals, guides, and valves.  He recommended a new head.

He only buys import heads from 2 sources, both Chinese.  He said DNJ heads he has purchased have been a quality product. – no issues.
 
Regarding the quality of a Toyota factory head (high quality aluminum alloy), he said he prefers to rebuild a Toyota factory head one over a Chinese head.

He also prefers and recommended a Fel-Pro head gasket for this head rebuild install.

All 4 intake valves were sealing.

My factory stock cam looks fine and the rockers and rack look fine, so John is going buy a new head, install new stock valves and springs, use my stock factory cam and rocker rack.

This new head may or may not solve the oil consumption problem.  I will see how the new head and stock Toyota cam performs, check gas mileage, and see how much torque I will feel at 3,000 RPMs.  I can always swap a camshaft later.

At this point, I'm disappointed that engnbldr is out of business and cannot address my findings.  I am very disappointed in the head they supplied.  Now that I've gone through this experience, I know what I would do differently and what I'd recommend to anyone rebuilding a 22RE. 

A time consuming and expensive learning experience.  :thumbs:

Gnarls.


« Last Edit: Feb 28, 2019, 06:12:02 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1865 on: Feb 28, 2019, 02:48:10 PM »
My engnbldr head that I bought years ago was made in South America according to what he told me. I had a problem with casting voids in the head causing a liquid leak into the exhaust chamber. The only thing the 261 cam did for me was allow more torque at a lower rpm.  I am going back to a stock cam with my new engine I will install this spring.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1866 on: Feb 28, 2019, 03:13:40 PM »
My engnbldr head that I bought years ago was made in South America according to what he told me. I had a problem with casting voids in the head causing a liquid leak into the exhaust chamber. The only thing the 261 cam did for me was allow more torque at a lower rpm.  I am going back to a stock cam with my new engine I will install this spring.

Hey P...

Yeah... John said that the factory head also had issues once in awhile with leaks inside the exhaust port.

My 85 22R with a factory rebuilt head, built by John back in 2001, and new 22R stock cam ran really strong. It averaged between 19 and 21 MPG on 89 octane fuel.  I had the DT header and opened exhaust, turbo muffler.

I am very curious what another cam profile will do.  I believe that a higher lift/duration cam profile will work really well in 22R.  I don't think that a higher lift/duration cam profile will work as well in a 22RE because the ECU and O2 sensor will work hard to balance the AFR changes the cam will do.... but I'd really like to find out.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1867 on: Mar 01, 2019, 07:36:43 AM »
You should consider starting a thread just about cam shafts for 22r and 22re?  :smack:
Just an idea... It might be worthless....
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1868 on: Mar 01, 2019, 06:23:12 PM »
You should consider starting a thread just about cam shafts for 22r and 22re?  :smack:
Just an idea... It might be worthless....

Hey bgen!  Well... IF my engine rebuild had come together like I was expecting it to, I would have had my truck on an engine dyno at least 3 times by now!! ... And I'm NOT kidding!

I wanted to "test" by swapping camshafts in my freshly rebuilt 22RE.

So... I don't know that I will get to do that?  I have some more work to do on getting my truck in the restored condition I hoped to.

On the cam thread... there's lots of information I posted already with lots of input from some guys like H8PVMNT. 

I'd have to find the thread.  [EDIT]  HERE'S A CAM THREAD:  https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100575.0


Of course.... it could all be worthless opinion.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 02, 2019, 02:16:30 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1869 on: Mar 02, 2019, 11:46:53 AM »
Hey bgen!  Well... IF my engine rebuild had come together like I was expecting it to, I would have had my truck on an engine dyno at least 3 times by now!! ... And I'm NOT kidding!

I wanted to "test" by swapping camshafts in my freshly rebuilt 22RE.

So... I don't know that I will get to do that?  I have some more work to do on getting my truck in the restored condition I hoped to.

On the cam thread... there's lots of information I posted already with lots of input from some guys like H8PVMNT. 

I'd have to find the thread.  [EDIT]  HERE'S A CAM THREAD:  https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100575.0


Of course.... it could all be worthless opinion.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.

Maybe the cam thread would be best described as moot pointless...
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1870 on: Mar 02, 2019, 08:11:49 PM »
Maybe the cam thread would be best described as moot pointless...

blackdiamond....

You should stick to learning about the Fletcher Munson Curve.....  :thumbs:

More  :haha: Lift and   :haha: Duration is something you probably could use.  :lipsrsealed:   :rofl:

Gnarls.  :gap:



« Last Edit: Mar 02, 2019, 08:30:00 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1871 on: Mar 03, 2019, 08:34:05 AM »
blackdiamond....

You should stick to learning about the Fletcher Munson Curve.....  :thumbs:

More  :haha: Lift and   :haha: Duration is something you probably could use.  :lipsrsealed:   :rofl:

Gnarls.  :gap:





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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1872 on: Mar 03, 2019, 01:04:57 PM »
Turn down the volume, i cant read

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1873 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:32:20 PM »
Dont use factory head, aluminum is very porous

This is a matter of opinion, according my local head shop, he prefers to rebuild a factory head if its rebuildable... says they are very high quality and disagrees with "Don't use factory head, aluminum is very porous."

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1874 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:37:04 PM »
I picked up my new built head this afternoon.  :greengrin:

It's a DNJ head, new valves, springs, seals, etc. - all after market.

$399.67

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1875 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:40:56 PM »
Since I don't want to put the new head on and discover it's still burning oil, at this point I am thinking of pulling the engine, tear it down and starting over with the rebuild.

I'm not sure when I will do it.  :dunno:

I may have Jim at 22RE Performance build me a long block?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1876 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:50:04 PM »
Do it

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1877 on: Mar 12, 2019, 07:28:24 PM »
Who, other than H8PVMNT, has honed cylinders in prepping a 20/22 block, and rebuilt it yourself?  :gap:

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1878 on: Mar 12, 2019, 09:29:32 PM »
Who, other than H8PVMNT, has honed cylinders in prepping a 20/22 block, and rebuilt it yourself?  :gap:

I do if the cyls haven't been machined.  I have done three 22's and a 7mgte, no issues with the engines I still own.  Honing isn't rocket science.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1879 on: Mar 13, 2019, 04:32:37 AM »
I do if the cyls haven't been machined.  I have done three 22's and a 7mgte, no issues with the engines I still own.  Honing isn't rocket science.

Hey S…

Thank you for your reply.

I have been thinking about pulling my engine and rebuilding it from scratch.

I’ve been doing research on engine cylinder honing, honing tools, Ra, cross-hatching, ring & piston prepping, etc.  Some of the published information and specs is confusing.

For example, I’m reading different information, depending upon which piston/ring manufacturer.

I agree that honing is not rocket science, but apparently the honing and Ra is extremely important to the ring manufacturer.  The Ra number range also appears to be controversial.

I’m just trying to figure out what, exactly, I should know and what you have done to successfully get the compression and the low oil consumption where it should be after break-in on a rebuild 22.

What honing tool did you use?
What Ra did you end up with?
How did you measure the Ra?
What manufacturer of pistons and rings did you install?
What piston to cylinder clearance did you measure?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 13, 2019, 04:53:17 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1880 on: Mar 13, 2019, 10:36:48 AM »
As you know I have done this a few times.  I have an old hone I have used every time I did it and I never had excessive oil consumption when I did.  I think it has provided a better job than when I have used what the machine shop has sent home with me, to the point that I might start running it over newly prepped blocks before assembly.  I will see if I can find out what Ra it is.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1881 on: Mar 13, 2019, 01:17:37 PM »
As you know I have done this a few times.  I have an old hone I have used every time I did it and I never had excessive oil consumption when I did.  I think it has provided a better job than when I have used what the machine shop has sent home with me, to the point that I might start running it over newly prepped blocks before assembly.  I will see if I can find out what Ra it is.

H...

Thanks!! I was hoping you'd post some "pomp n' stink" LOL!

Yes, I know you've done this a few times.  I'm just trying to get as much info as I can from those who have done it... successfully.

Rebuilding this engine should not be THAT difficult.... but I'm NOT an engine builder.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1882 on: Mar 13, 2019, 08:14:47 PM »
As you know I have done this a few times.  I have an old hone I have used every time I did it and I never had excessive oil consumption when I did.  I think it has provided a better job than when I have used what the machine shop has sent home with me, to the point that I might start running it over newly prepped blocks before assembly.  I will see if I can find out what Ra it is.

H...

Whose pistons and rings have you had the best luck or prefer?

What piston to cylinder wall clearance spec did you use and how did you measure it?

Did you follow the ring supplier/manufacturer's spec for Ra or did you do you own Ra?

How did you measure the Ra?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1883 on: Mar 17, 2019, 06:01:42 AM »
UPDATE:  March 17, 2019

Since 2 cylinders (3 & 4) had good numbers on the last compression test (155 & 150), and considering that none of the exhaust valves were sealing, I’m now leaning towards installing the new head and see what happens.  If the severe oil consumption goes away, I may not pull the engine down to re-rebuild it at this time.

I’m thinking to install an ARP head stud kit with a Fel-Pro head gasket.  It’s interesting that with the ARP studs, ARP recommends 90 psi on the torque.

I am very interested in reading some posts from the guys, anyone, out there who has rebuilt from block up, what pistons and rings you installed, and why, AND… what the hone Ra and cross-hatching was.  How did you know what the Ra was… did you do it yourself or rely on the machine shop? What type of hone did you use, or the machine shop used?  :dunno:

Any experiences, comments or suggestions will be appreciated.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1884 on: Mar 17, 2019, 06:42:35 AM »
Here is what cylinder #3 looks like.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1885 on: Mar 17, 2019, 09:11:21 AM »
I know you do your research, Why are you considering using a felpro head gasket?
I have witnessed on several occasions, felpro head gaskets lasting 6 months to a year. If you look at a felpro gasket next to a toyota gasket the quality difference is obvious.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1886 on: Mar 17, 2019, 12:15:43 PM »
Quote
I’m just trying to figure out what, exactly, I should know and what you have done to successfully get the compression and the low oil consumption where it should be after break-in on a rebuild 22.
What honing tool did you use?
The three stone floating kind and a hand drill.

Quote
What manufacturer of pistons and rings did you install?
oem, NPR, whatever Engiinbuilder sent with the pistons back in the '00's, and whatever came with the rebuild kit from one of the Supra suppliers for my 7mgte.

Quote
What Ra did you end up with?

Unknown, the hone I use is older than I am, it dates back to at least the mid '50's-early '60's when my Dad was building hotrods and drag cars, possibly as old the mid '30's when my Grandfather worked as a mechanic for Cadillac.  Best guess would be it is about 220grit, which appears to be an RA somewhere between 28-35.

Quote
How did you measure the Ra?
What piston to cylinder clearance did you measure?

Never have, just with the blocks that didn't need to be bored, I just bought the rings needed for the cylinder, and hand honed them to seat the new rings, looking at some vids on Youtube, at most this is about as aggressive as I have gone.


Having done some reading now, and compared to what I have experienced, either I am the "blind squirrel" with each hand hone I have done, or measuring the RA and piston clearance isn't as important with a re-ring on older engines as it is when the cylinders have been bored, or with modern engines and the tighter tolerances due to fuel economy and emissions requirements.

.

'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Snowtoy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1887 on: Mar 17, 2019, 12:32:55 PM »
UPDATE:  March 17, 2019

Since 2 cylinders (3 & 4) had good numbers on the last compression test (155 & 150), and considering that none of the exhaust valves were sealing, I’m now leaning towards installing the new head and see what happens.  If the severe oil consumption goes away, I may not pull the engine down to re-rebuild it at this time.

Based on the exhaust valve issues with the head, that is all I would do, your only out the cost of the head gasket, head inspection/machining, and your time, if there was more issues than just the head.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1888 on: Mar 17, 2019, 02:01:54 PM »
I know you do your research, Why are you considering using a felpro head gasket?
I have witnessed on several occasions, felpro head gaskets lasting 6 months to a year. If you look at a felpro gasket next to a toyota gasket the quality difference is obvious.

Hey T…

Yeah… good question.

So, yes I do a lot of research, and have been for many years.

I realize that there are many posts in many auto forums that have threads with the discussion of head gaskets and head gasket failures.

Over the years I have spoken to a good number of engine builders, including those rebuilding Toyota engines. 

So… what do I believe?  I believe there are good, better, and best gaskets.  There are also some very poor quality gaskets and seals being supplied.  I know because I bought 5 different brands of the input shaft seal on my tranny and did my own comparison… it’s in my thread.   I also know that the rocker cover gasket and grommets contained in the engnbldr master rebuild kit was very poor quality and failed after the first time I removed the rocker cover.  I bought a Beck Arnley from Rock Auto and there is no comparison!

Back to head gaskets…. Although I’m leaning to a Fel Pro, I’m going to do a little more research and get a few more opinions before I make my final purchase.

22RE Performance sells an “OE” gasket, but I don’t know what manufacturer.  OE can mean different things to different people.  OE can mean:  Original Equivalent… NOT OEM.. Original Equipment Manufacturer.  Most auto dealers refer to their parts as “OE”...Original Equipment.

Now that I’m going to install ARP studs, I want to know more about the torque spec that ARP recommends (90 lbs) and the gasket I choose.

Several engine builders I’ve had conversations with about head gasket failure on our 22s say it is most often NOT caused by the head gasket.

My head shop here has been rebuilding heads, mostly import (aluminum/alloy) for 35 years.  He recommended Fel Pro for the new head he built and engine.  I respect his opinion.

I may buy several head gaskets and inspect and compare them for my self.  Of course, I’m not sure that a visual “look” will be the most decisive determination of the quality?

I am open to read anyone’s opinion, experiences, or favorite head gasket and why.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2019, 02:09:00 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1889 on: Mar 17, 2019, 02:18:02 PM »
Based on the exhaust valve issues with the head, that is all I would do, your only out the cost of the head gasket, head inspection/machining, and your time, if there was more issues than just the head.

Hi S....

I appreciate your feedback!   :beerchug:

Yeah... I'm very curious now if the head and bad valves, and I suspect *maybe* a bad head gasket, were causing the issue with the excessive oil consumption.  My head shop guy said he thinks its possible the exhaust valves not sealing would cause excessive pressure to blow oil back into the top of the head and into the throttle body.

Once I get the new head installed, I will know something in about 600 miles!  :gap:

Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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