Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188987 times)

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Slabzilla

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1830 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:41:02 PM »
The ignitions on these 22RE's sometimes don't show enough smoke, but might leave a residue on your tailgate/shell window.  One of my friends trucks was burning oil but the plugs looked clean. The valve seals were shot and the rings over 145k.  Found residue on his shell's window and did a teardown/rebuild. :burnout:
'85 Xtra-cab, 4.5" Downey Off-Road lift, 12-15 KM2's on American Racing Baja's, 4.10's, 4.7's, Downey Off-Road CAI, Marlin rear bumper & sliders

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1831 on: Feb 14, 2019, 03:42:42 AM »
Hey G...

I agree with everything you said, however, I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

And I too think that I'm going to find something in the head/valves.  My gut keeps telling me its the length of the valve stems and/or the valve seats.

I will pull the head and get it into someone I trust can give me a quality inspection and diagnosis.

QUESTION:  Could the valves/guides, seals, seat have caused the 1 quart of oil burning in 600 miles.  I had not blow-by, no smoke at cold or warm start.  I have tach'd this engine up to 5,500 RPM at least a 12 times in 1st gear.

Gnarls.

I also don't think the oversized valves and 261c cam will float the valves at 5500rpms, but oversized valves and more agressive ramp angles will afect the rpms at which the valves float. I also don't think it has to do with the length of the valves, as people have put 22r valves in 20r heads for decades, and apparently they are longer and will mess the rocker geometry but will not affect oil consumption or cause immediate damage.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1832 on: Feb 14, 2019, 04:08:45 AM »
Are the valve seals on there?  Some times complicated problems are the stupidest thing you can think of.

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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1833 on: Feb 14, 2019, 04:46:11 AM »
Are the valve seals on there?  Some times complicated problems are the stupidest thing you can think of.



Hey H...

Great question! 

I checked the seals when I first opened up the box from engnbldr.  When I pulled the rocker cover off after this last misfire I looked for the seals.... I see some light blue thingies on all 8 valve stems! :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:




« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2019, 06:26:22 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1834 on: Feb 14, 2019, 07:02:58 PM »
I thought valve stem seals were black thingies...….
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1835 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:13:18 AM »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1836 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:21:38 AM »
Pulling the head on 22RE is a pain in the arse!!  :smack:

By the time I get the head off, I’m only a couple hours away from pulling the engine.  :disturbed:

I have to get my mind into this… I am not looking forward to it.  But as bgen and H8PVMNT say…. “Less talk and more action”…. Gitter done!!  :blah:

Gnarls   :willynilly:
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2019, 03:30:27 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1837 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:26:06 AM »
There's a part of me that wants to convert this engine to a 22R when I rebuild it, or have a long block rebuilt :yesnod:

I'm interested in reading about any comments, experiences with a 22RE to 22R conversion, and any other thoughts.  :D

Thank you.

Gnarls. :gap:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1838 on: Feb 15, 2019, 05:20:29 AM »
...I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

I think you're making an assumption there. In my experience, assumptions are defined as things that prove to be false after costing you large amounts of time, money, and tears. Until you measure, calculate, or verify every one and find the one that was wrong.

Sorry to hear your engine rebuild went west like this. With all this experience, the next one will probably take you a couple weeks and run like a top  :thumbs:

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1839 on: Feb 15, 2019, 05:51:47 AM »
Well you know I have grown to love carb.  If I was going to do that I would probably try to get ahold of a carb wiring harness from another truck of similar era, then you are plug and play.  Not that you can't rig it up off your efi harness but it would be a lot cleaner with the correct harness.  No big deal other than that except changing your in tank fuel pump to a siphon or using a regulator on it for carb appropriate psi.
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1840 on: Feb 16, 2019, 06:06:22 AM »
I think you're making an assumption there. In my experience, assumptions are defined as things that prove to be false after costing you large amounts of time, money, and tears. Until you measure, calculate, or verify every one and find the one that was wrong.

Sorry to hear your engine rebuild went west like this. With all this experience, the next one will probably take you a couple weeks and run like a top  :thumbs:

Hi L...

Yeah, my comment is technically an "assumption"..... based upon about 32 years of being around these engines and trucks.  If there was a "valve float" issue, we would have read about it by now.  Since this engnbldr head comes with a single valve spring and stainless steel valves, I assume that the extra weight of the stainless steel over steel valves does not require the higher pressure dual spring valve spring.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1841 on: Feb 16, 2019, 08:58:38 AM »
Pull that head! Pull that head!   Seriously, we all just speculating until you do some foot work.  Im really curious! Hurry, its the weekend.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1842 on: Feb 16, 2019, 09:47:39 AM »
Pull that head! Pull that head!   Seriously, we all just speculating until you do some foot work.  Im really curious! Hurry, its the weekend.
I second this! Get off Your ass and pull the head! 3 hrs max and We can all know answer to what happened. I am still thinking valves hit pistons with Your drag race rpms.
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SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1843 on: Feb 16, 2019, 09:50:35 AM »
Yeah do it!  Do it!  Do it! Do it!
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1844 on: Feb 18, 2019, 02:45:55 AM »
Yeah do it!  Do it!  Do it! Do it!

I have the truck on jack stands.   :thumbs:

I was going to start wrenching on the engine this past week end, but had a family emergency and could not get to it.  :smack:

I am planning on pulling the head by this Saturday afternoon.  :biggthumpup:

I am as curious and want to know what happened as much as anyone else!  :inthedark:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1845 on: Feb 18, 2019, 02:55:47 AM »
..... I am still thinking valves hit pistons with Your drag race rpms.

So.... are saying that IF the engine had some valve "float" at my "drag race" 5,500 RPMs, the floating valve(s) would contact the top of the piston?  :smack:

This interesting because I believe the 261C cam profile has one of the higher overlap (6.2 degrees) of the cams I have recorded or tested.

QUESTION:  Could excessive camshaft overlap  (significantly greater than a stock cam profile) be more likely to cause valve float, and potentially cause valve to piston interference?

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2019, 03:10:46 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1846 on: Feb 22, 2019, 06:28:26 AM »
I believe the answer is in your head... Sitting there in your garage or driveway.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1847 on: Feb 22, 2019, 07:19:03 AM »
So.... are saying that IF the engine had some valve "float" at my "drag race" 5,500 RPMs, the floating valve(s) would contact the top of the piston?  :smack:

Yes exactly.

This interesting because I believe the 261C cam profile has one of the higher overlap (6.2 degrees) of the cams I have recorded or tested.

QUESTION:  Could excessive camshaft overlap  (significantly greater than a stock cam profile) be more likely to cause valve float, and potentially cause valve to piston interference?

Yes absolutely. Changing the lift, overlap, and duration will 100% increase the potential for valve to piston contact. This is controlled by stiffer valve springs, multiple valve springs, larger valve relief and a designed rpm range for a specific cam profile.

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1848 on: Feb 23, 2019, 05:48:24 PM »
UPDATE:  Feb 23, Saturday PM

Started at 1:30pm – stopped at 4:00pm

Got engine at TDC #1 cylinder firing.

Removed distributor & wires.
Drained radiator, pulled wires and hoses, removed chamber, removed fuel rail & injectors, removed intake manifold.

I would NOT do that again on a 22RE. :thumbdown:

I would drop the tranny and pull the engine. :thumbs:

Doing a head R&R on a 22R is WAY easier. :yesnod:

Tomorrow I need to remove the power steering bracket, two heater hoses, and drop the DT header,
remove the cam sprocket, remove the hidden bolt, unbolt the head bolts, remove the rocker rack,
then I should be able to get the head off.  :gap:

Gnarls. :D
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1849 on: Feb 24, 2019, 05:25:21 PM »
UPDATE:  FEB 24 Sunday PM

I got the head off.

I see some things.  I took some photos. - I REMOVED THE PHOTOS.

The photos did NOT come out as well as I wanted.  The vavle/chamber contact areas are shiny alloy looking, the photos don't show that reflection. 
EDIT:  THE SHINY AREAS ARE JUST WHERE THE CARBON WAS NOT STICKING TO THE SURFACES OF THE TOP OF THE PISTON, AND THE AREA AROUND THE VALVE POCKET.

#1 & #2 chamber - There is appears to be contact on the chamber where the exhaust valve opens and closes.
EDIT:  THIS TURNS OUT NOT TO BE THE CASE

Chambers #3 & #4 color looks different, as they had normal compression.

I cannot yet determine where the coolant leak is on chamber/cylinder #3

The hone marks on the cylinder walls do not appear to be at 45 degrees?

I need to do some editing and labeling then I'll post the photos. 
EDIT:  I REMOVED THE PHOTOS - NOT WHAT HAPPENED

Since I am not a head expert, I will take this head into someone I trust can examine it, and hopefully tell me why it failed.

I have a lot of questions.

Gnarls. :dunno:
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2019, 03:29:28 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1850 on: Feb 24, 2019, 05:37:56 PM »
UPDATE:  FEB 24 Sunday PM

I got the head off.

I see some things.  I took some photos.

The photos did NOT come out as well as I wanted.  The vavle/chamber contact areas are shiny alloy looking, the photos don't show that reflection.

#1 & #2 chamber - There is appears to be contact on the chamber where the exhaust valve opens and closes.

There is appears to be contact on the piston by the exhaust valve on chamber #2.

Chambers #3 & #4 color looks different, as they had normal compression.

I cannot yet determine where the coolant leak is on chamber/cylinder #3

The hone marks on the cylinder walls do not appear to be at 45 degrees?

I need to do some editing and labeling then I'll post the photos.

Since I am not a head expert, I will take this head into someone I trust can examine it, and hopefully tell me why it failed.

I have a lot of questions.

Gnarls. :dunno:

So do the rest of us, ( Questions ).  Some interference was involved after all.   :hammerhead:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1851 on: Feb 24, 2019, 06:12:54 PM »
Do a basic leak check on those valves using very light compressed air and brake clean/water (besgen trickle down).  Remember, ur looking for compression loss...

And what about head gasket?  Main sealing rings?   Is there a cylinder cleaner than the rest?

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1852 on: Feb 24, 2019, 06:33:08 PM »
Do a basic leak check on those valves using very light compressed air and brake clean/water (besgen trickle down).  Remember, ur looking for compression loss...

And what about head gasket?  Main sealing rings?   Is there a cylinder cleaner than the rest?
If your going to give Me partial credit for your automotive education at least get my name correct.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1853 on: Feb 24, 2019, 06:42:46 PM »
Im sorry besgen 86 4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1854 on: Feb 24, 2019, 06:55:39 PM »
Im sorry besgen 86 4runner
Now that I'm thinking about it could you post the trail boss guide to off-roading with bestgen to my build page.
Thanks in advance
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1855 on: Feb 24, 2019, 07:00:01 PM »
Two things
Valve float
And what fuel are you running (tons of carbon)
Wait wait I got it... Arco fuel? Saving money again Gnarly?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1856 on: Feb 24, 2019, 07:12:53 PM »
Two things
Valve float
And what fuel are you running (tons of carbon)
Wait wait I got it... Arco fuel? Saving money again Gnarly?

Two things.... LOL.... 1st - contact.... what caused it?  :dunno:

2nd thing...yes... there is carbon!!!  It was burning 1 quart of oil every 600 miles.  And.... NO... I don't burn Arco.  I burn whatever Fry's Market  pumps or Costco.... 87 octane.  Saving money, being frugal, is NOT a bad thing. If you are rebuilding a 22RE, buying less than quality parts to save money is not very savvy.... that's just my  experience.  :gap:


Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: Feb 24, 2019, 07:18:36 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1857 on: Feb 24, 2019, 07:33:05 PM »
I hope to have someone look at the head and tell me what caused the failure.

As I stated from the first time I fired the engine at break-in, I suspected something wrong with the valves and the head.

I doubt that 5,500 RPMs in a 22RE would float a healthy valve train, even with the heavier 1mm larger stainless steel valves... but I'm no expert.

I'm very curious about the abnormal oil consumption.

Gnarls. :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1858 on: Feb 24, 2019, 07:33:19 PM »
Two things.... LOL.... 1st - contact.... what caused it?  :dunno:

2nd thing...yes... there is carbon!!!  It was burning 1 quart of oil every 600 miles.  And.... NO... I don't burn Arco.  I burn whatever Fry's Market  pumps or Costco.... 87 octane.  Saving money, being frugal, is NOT a bad thing. If you are rebuilding a 22RE, buying less than quality parts to save money is not very savvy.... that's just my  experience.  :gap:


Gnarls. :spin:
Lol
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1859 on: Feb 25, 2019, 06:17:04 PM »
UPDATE:  FEB 25 PM

I spoke to my local head shop today.  I am going to take a day off work to go there and have the owner, who has been rebuilding engine cylinder heads for over 20 years, inspect my head and show me and tell me what he determines has caused the failure.  He was also the one who rebuilt my head on my 1985 22R in 2002.

I am going to see him on Thursday morning.  I'm also taking in my original factory head to have him look at and possibly rebuild it as well.

I hope to have some answers to my list of questions about this head.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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