Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 194985 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1770 on: Feb 10, 2019, 07:58:44 AM »
UPDATE FEBRUARY 10, 2019

22RE Rebuild testing to determine engine failure:

Per bgen’s instructions (Thanks bgen!), I backed off all the rockers and did another compression test.

Engine warmed to normal operating temp, fuel injector fuse pulled, coil wire pulled, throttle linkage wide open, intake tube to throttle body off.

Results:

# 1 – 70 lbs.
# 2 – 80 lbs.
# 3 – 190 lbs.
# 4 – 184 lbs.

I think bgen would call the results.... "curtains"  :sad2:

First compression test - lash adjusted:

#1 = 33 lbs.
#2 = 65 lbs.
#3 = 155 lbs.
#4 = 150 lbs.

Leak Down test – piston TDC per cylinder, at firing order.  Gauge PSI @ 75 PSI

#1 = 11 PSI -  leak % = 85% - air leaking out exhaust
#2 = 13 PSI -  leak % = 83% - air leaking out exhaust
#3 = 64 PSI – leak % = 15% - pushed coolant out radiator filler, no bubbles detected, air leaking out rocker cover
#4 = 42 PSI  - leak % = 44% - air leaking out rocker cover

Gnarls. :down:




« Last Edit: Feb 10, 2019, 09:35:14 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

OOPS

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1771 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:13:13 AM »
Not good, time tear it apart!!
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1772 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:26:44 AM »
Not good, time tear it apart!!


Hi OOPS... yes it is.  I can pull the head and get that over to my local head shop here and find out the issues there.  I won't really be able to get a good diagnosis on the pistons or rings without pulling the engine.  I could of course inspect the cylinder walls.  I'd need a profilometer to check the RA.


Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1773 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:40:58 AM »
You put in any aftermarket valves?  Like the lce 1mm oversized?

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1774 on: Feb 10, 2019, 10:04:00 AM »
You put in any aftermarket valves?  Like the lce 1mm oversized?

Hey E.... the head is from engbldr.  Oversized valves.  I believe its the one from DNJ.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1775 on: Feb 10, 2019, 11:29:42 AM »
I have 1mm oversized in mine from lce.  Installed and checked by machinist.  Funny thing is, i get about 3000 miles and it starts to run a little bumpy then progressively gets worse until dead misfire at low rpm.  Twice ive had to adjust the valves and only got about 10k on engine rebuild.  Both times i found valves too tight primarily on exhaust...  they are supposed to work with stock seats... I wonder if the material is too hard/soft or the cut on the valve is a little off causing it to dig in.  Anyways, if i continue to have to adjust these valves down i assume its a matter of time before a bigger problem arises.  Until then im gunna drive it until there is a problem.  Reason is, the lce turbo pistons from their pro kit are about .020 taller than stock! They dont tell you this! Long story short my pistons were smacking my cylinder head.  I was in a pinch and had to get my truck driving so i ended up getting a super thick mls head gasket.  So, basically i know that my engine has some form of premature wear out of the gate, tear down is in its future.  Right now it runs great and i dont have to DD it   i can then keep wheeling it.  I gave you a long response for you pleasure gnarly, mostly babbling, but i suspect those aftermarket valves might lead to something, if not you maybe me...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1776 on: Feb 10, 2019, 01:35:36 PM »
Very sorry to hear the results Gnarly.
What a horrible bummer.
I’ve had engine repairs/ rebuilds go horribly wrong before.
I once had a Jeep V8 engine that went to a level of insanity.
I pulled the heads to have hardened valve seats installed. This was a common job back when I was a rookie.
The machine shop set one of the valve guides to tight. After a week It stuck the valve long enough for the piston to come up smack it. I pulled the head and sent it back to the machine shop. They said they couldn’t see anything wrong, repaired the head and valve then sent it back. I reinstalled and gave it back to the customer. Two weeks later it’s back on the tow truck. Diag revealed the same valve bent again. Pulled the head sent back to machine shop.
They honed the guide replaced the valve and sent it back. I reinstalled the head. While talking to the customer on the phone I literally heard the engine bend the same valve again. I sent the head to a different machine shop to find out what was going wrong. They found that the valve guide was way way to tight causing the valve to stick. They repaired And I reinstalled. Fixed
It can be much much worse.
If your ready to sell it Just let me know.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1777 on: Feb 10, 2019, 01:37:04 PM »
I have 1mm oversized ..

He E.... Well... I think what just said is exactly what happened to my engine.  From when I first fired it, my gut said "there's something wrong with the valves".  Then the exhaust went tight very quickly, rough idle, then slight misfire!

I suspect something in the machining, installation, valves or valve seats.  Also, I'm concerned that this cam profile is not compatible with Mama ECU.... perhaps too much overlap.  It ran strong though?... even when burning a quart of oil every 600 miles??  The parts from the engnbldr kit is probably chunk.......

From the start...

timing chain guides did not fit, I had to slot the bolt holes.

Rocker cover and grommets were junk, split apart after one R&R.  I've bought and installed the Beck Arnley kit from Rock Auto and its really hiqh quality.

Leaking freeze plugs.

Bad piston rings... weak spring pressure or wrong/poor moly coating - suspected by Jim at 22REP.

Now head gasket leaking or cracked head?... possibly the block, but not likely.

Probably find bad valves, valve seats, seals?  Maybe some burnt exhaust valves.

The 261C Cam didn't look well cast... several lobes were out of alignment with the rockers.

I didn't really like the looks of the new oil pump, the original Toyota factory was way better made.

I suppose there are more things I could list here, or may discover, but overall... I'm VERY disappointed in the DNJ kit so far.

Gnarls.




head gasket leaking/blown,
« Last Edit: Feb 12, 2019, 05:23:21 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1778 on: Feb 10, 2019, 01:41:38 PM »
Very sorry to hear the results Gnarly.
What a horrible bummer.


Thanks for all your help bgen! :beerchug:

Yes.... I have learned a $5,000+ lesson.  I hope anyone that reads my thread here can get a few take-aways from my experience.   :smack:

Once I get the engine pulled and really see what happened, I will finish my thread here with some Do's & Don't's from a DYIer. :thumbs:

I'll post some more thoughts later. :blah:

At this point I plan to finish my restoration of this truck, if I don't get too discouraged, and run of patience, money, and time.  :gap:

Gnarls. :sad2:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1779 on: Feb 10, 2019, 02:12:10 PM »
If the cylinder walls look fine, you could just drop the pan and remove the pistons and re-ring them, then again if the freeze plugs are leaking, and you want to change the water pump, you might as well just pull it before you remove the head.  Did the machine shop you used supply/install the freeze plugs?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1780 on: Feb 10, 2019, 03:15:43 PM »
I truly believe the best approach to this catastrophe is to pull the engine and send it to a professional for complete inspection and work from there. No attempt should be made to save time or money at this stage. Honestly that’s part of what lead to this point in the first place.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1781 on: Feb 10, 2019, 03:20:13 PM »
If the cylinder walls look fine, you could just drop the pan and remove the pistons and re-ring them, then again if the freeze plugs are leaking, and you want to change the water pump, you might as well just pull it before you remove the head.  Did the machine shop you used supply/install the freeze plugs?

Hey S....

Yeah... that option has been suggested, but if I am going to rebuild it, I will start from scratch and do it right... or send it to 22REP and have them rebuild it.  Dropping the oil pan requires dropping the front axle - big pain. Since I have two leaking freeze plugs, I would want to pull the engine and replace all of them.  I installed the freeze plugs from the engnbldr kit.

If I rebuilt myself, it will be easier for me if it is on the engine stand.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1782 on: Feb 10, 2019, 03:22:06 PM »
I truly believe the best approach to this catastrophe is to pull the engine and send it to a professional for complete inspection and work from there. No attempt should be made to save time or money at this stage. Honestly that’s part of what lead to this point in the first place.

That's what I plan to do.  I would like a professional to examine and diagnose the failure(s).  I REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE FACTS!  :yikes: :blah: ???

There's a part of me that wants to have Jim build me a long block, let him supply the block, and I would make another attempt at rebuilding this engine.  :gap:

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Feb 10, 2019, 03:29:43 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1783 on: Feb 10, 2019, 04:39:30 PM »
Sorry Gnarls, sounds like you've got the royal flush, 1&2 burnt or bent valves or bad valve seats.  Numbers 3 blown head gasket to coolant and oil & 4 blown head gasket to oil passage.  rings may be involved, but I'm betting not.  Keep us informed.  Sorry for your continued bad luck.  I've used Fel-pro gaskets top to bottom on my last three builds with no probs, "your experience may vary" as I always say.  Do what works for you.  Good luckon the next rendition.   :twocents:   :biggthumpup:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1784 on: Feb 10, 2019, 05:57:14 PM »
Im all about machining block w/timing cover and cylinder surfaces with proper RA finish and using mls gasket

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1785 on: Feb 10, 2019, 06:32:03 PM »
Sorry Gnarls, sounds like you've got the royal flush, 1&2 burnt or bent valves or bad valve seats.  Numbers 3 blown head gasket to coolant and oil & 4 blown head gasket to oil passage.  rings may be involved, but I'm betting not.  Keep us informed.  Sorry for your continued bad luck.  I've used Fel-pro gaskets top to bottom on my last three builds with no probs, "your experience may vary" as I always say.  Do what works for you.  Good luckon the next rendition.   :twocents:   :biggthumpup:

Hey S...

Thanks... Yeah... I'd use Fel-Pro all day long!  Cometic MLS of course.  Toyota factory OEM is very popular.  I trusted Tod's experience and product sources.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1786 on: Feb 10, 2019, 06:38:44 PM »
Im all about machining block w/timing cover and cylinder surfaces with proper RA finish and using mls gasket

Hey E...

This is something I can highly recommend to be carefully considered in a rebuild!!  I will never 100% trust the machine work without witnessing the measurements and have a thorough understanding of the entire processing of the block.  I'm not saying the machine work is bad, I don't know.  But if I had checked everything they did, including the RA I'd feel way better now.

If the block is NOT right, the rest of the rebuild is NOT going to be right.

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 03:32:43 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1787 on: Feb 11, 2019, 03:54:30 AM »
...
I pulled the heads to have hardened valve seats installed. This was a common job back when I was a rookie.
The machine shop set one of the valve guides to tight. After a week It stuck the valve long enough for the piston to come up smack it.

Hi bgen...  I am VERY familiar with the "sounds" of the 3 22s I've owned and worked on.  What you described is something that sounded like what was happening when I fired the engine.  The sound was like #1 or #2 piston was smacking a valve.

Hopefully I will know when I pull the head..

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1788 on: Feb 11, 2019, 03:01:57 PM »
Sorry to hear about your troubles, you didn't deserve that. I think that determining the extent of the damage, then the cause of the failure(s), would be a good 1-2 step before making the rebuild plan. Until then it is all speculation and nothing to be learned. Don't give up!

P.S. I am using engnbldr's oversize 20r stainless steel valves on stock cam. It has been 4 years, about 25 000kms, on its 3rd short block now on stock cam. It sees 5k rpms on every drive, has started in -25 and has run to 240f many times. Valves have never gone tight, and my stock toyota cam doesn't align very well with the rockers either.
« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 03:07:42 PM by Gillesdetrail »

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1789 on: Feb 11, 2019, 04:22:36 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1790 on: Feb 11, 2019, 05:41:58 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly. 

Worth more than 2 cents....

If I had purchased a head and the camshaft from two different sources, I could understand a possible issue with clearances... BUT... Tod at engnbldr knew exactly what I was rebuilding and he, I assume, installed their 261C cam into the DNJ head.

Of course, I would have had conversations with all sources to make sure I was buying exactly what was required or spec'd.

QUESTION:  How many "things" can change that will cause the valve lash to go tight by .001" to .003" in 600 to 800 miles after a very accurate and proper valve lash adjustment was performed?

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2019, 05:49:36 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1791 on: Feb 11, 2019, 05:45:19 PM »
... Until then it is all speculation and nothing to be learned. Don't give up!

Hey G...

Thank you.   Yes... I gotta get the head off and see, then go from there.

I'm happy to read that you have had good luck with engnbldr's product, as has probably many many other Toyota owner's out there.  I may be the unlucky one to got that rare defective set of parts?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1792 on: Feb 11, 2019, 06:06:24 PM »
 
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:

Per my specs, the gross valve lift for a factory stock cam is .385" for Intake, and .398" for Exhaust.  The 261C is spec'd at .410" for both valves, max gross lift.  That is only .012" more lift.  Would that be enough to possibly cause the top of the valve to contact the piston? Assuming the cam profile for each lobe was absolutely accurate to spec?  :dunno:



The block was decked .006".

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1793 on: Feb 12, 2019, 09:33:15 AM »

Per my specs, the gross valve lift for a factory stock cam is .385" for Intake, and .398" for Exhaust.  The 261C is spec'd at .410" for both valves, max gross lift.  That is only .012" more lift.  Would that be enough to possibly cause the top of the valve to contact the piston? Assuming the cam profile for each lobe was absolutely accurate to spec?  :dunno:



The block was decked .006".

Gnarls.

Any chance the block was decked .060 and there was a typo/miscommunication somewhere along the way?
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toyoboy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1794 on: Feb 12, 2019, 12:10:31 PM »
The unfortunate possibilities of bent valves because of piston contact are there because of the lift of your cam and not checking if you required relief cuts in the pistons prior to assembly.  When I install a larger than stock cam I put some clay on each piston set the head on the gasket I'm using with 2 bolts just snug, rotate the cam for that  piston, then put each piston on top dead center and rotate the cam. Do this for all 4 and remove the head.  measure the depth of the impression of the valve and see if relief cuts are required.  The valve should be adjusted for this.  I've also had valve seats sink into my head from excessive spring pressure, Just a thought.   :twocents:

With 270 cam with .430 lift that my brother has (which is the maximum lift for stock valve springs) and decked .007 the valves still clear, these are interference engines which means that if a valve gets stuck open it will hit the piston even on a stock cam.

If working properly the valves are not all the way open when the piston is up, machining them so that the valves clear while they are all the way open and the piston is at TDC will drop the compression, you have to rotate the cam and the crank in time with each other to get an accurate measurement so you don't end up cutting such a large unnecessary pocket that your engine runs like crap
« Last Edit: Feb 12, 2019, 12:16:02 PM by toyoboy »
82' w/dual t-cases, desmoged, with minor mods. 88' ex-cab 4x4 chassis with front diff and other 4x4 components removed, 4.3 v6 swab and other major mods in progress

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1795 on: Feb 12, 2019, 12:52:39 PM »
It's possible You may have floated a valve with that "tached up to 5K" driving.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

toyoboy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1796 on: Feb 12, 2019, 03:35:48 PM »
your springs might be weak :heavy: and with such a short duration cam at 5k weak springs would cause the valves to float like bestgen said.
82' w/dual t-cases, desmoged, with minor mods. 88' ex-cab 4x4 chassis with front diff and other 4x4 components removed, 4.3 v6 swab and other major mods in progress

cbeers

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1797 on: Feb 12, 2019, 04:54:42 PM »
But doesn't the EB head/cam combo come with new HD springs  :dunno:

CB

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1798 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:26:09 PM »
Any chance the block was decked .060 and there was a typo/miscommunication somewhere along the way?

No chance.  I checked the piston/deck height with Tod on the telephone with me, and it was in spec.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1799 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:27:23 PM »
But doesn't the EB head/cam combo come with new HD springs  :dunno:

CB

Yes... supposedly all new.  I don't know what valve spring pressure are, or whether they are referred to as HD or heavy duty?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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