Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[redneckcustoms13]

More disappointed actually sir.

Now a super charged 1uz would strike my interest. Or maybe a 1gr super charged... so many options that are purely toyota.

[:)bestgen4runner]

3rz SUPERCHARGED FOR THE WIN! 

[300k]

8.1 vortec or go home. 500 cubes would do your truck justice.

There is a guy down in Tucson that does a lot of swaps. 2uzs into minitrucks and such.

[redneckcustoms13]

8100 should get swapped into a Chevy Colorado not a 2nd gen Toyota. Keep them brand specific. Wiring is much easier that way.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Swapping to a Chevy power plant throws the reliability out the window.
I wheel a Toyota because they are reliable.
I used to want a 5.0L Ford swap but as I got older I realized they are just to heavy for a wheeler.

[Snowtoy]

Hi bd,

Yes, my complete rebuild included way more than I first expected.  I have North of $5,000 in out of pocket costs to get this restore in drivable condition - I still have some tuning to do and get it to cold start.

So... you DO NOT believe a $1700 upgrade - to gain the power as predicted in Engine Analyzer software for a 22RE - is worth it?

Gnarls.

From a hobby standpoint, yes, the amount of performance gained was worth, as it doesn't matter what you spend on a hobby, it is all about the enjoyment and not the return on your investment.  However, from a purely economic standpoint, no, the money spent per est. gains in HP/TQ wasn't worth it, as an engine swap would have yielded more gains in stock form for about the same price, as well as the a diff gear swap that while not producing any desktop gains, would have given you a 10% seat of your pants performance gain for about 1/3 the cost.

[Gnarly4X]

From a hobby standpoint, yes, the amount of performance gained was worth, as it doesn't matter what you spend on a hobby, it is all about the enjoyment and not the return on your investment.  However, from a purely economic standpoint, no, the money spent per est. gains in HP/TQ wasn't worth it, as an engine swap would have yielded more gains in stock form for about the same price, as well as the a diff gear swap that while not producing any desktop gains, would have given you a 10% seat of your pants performance gain for about 1/3 the cost.

Hey Snowtoy,

Well... I have to disagree with you somewhat.

After 40 years of off-roading, it is NOT all about the enjoyment.  The "hobby" is typically way MORE about the investment, which directly affects your "enjoyment".... Which is a whole other topic.

The power gains, swaps, all other aspects of engine modifications is probably THE most discussed topic on an early Toyota or 4-wheeling forum, so it is naturally a very wide and deep topic and so are the options and range of opinions.

Regarding your gear change suggestion.... You and I had this discussion awhile back, for MY need, you were wrong then and you are wrong now.  I repeat... I DO NOT WANT TO DRIVE MY TRUCK DOWN THE FREEWAY IN 5TH GEAR AT 4000 RPMS AT 80 MPH.  I want to drive it down the freeway EXACTLY where it runs NOW – 3,200 RPMs.  For me, the gearing right now is as perfect as I can get.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Swapping to a Chevy power plant throws the reliability out the window.
I wheel a Toyota because they are reliable.
I used to want a 5.0L Ford swap but as I got older I realized they are just to heavy for a wheeler.

Reliability... that is a very subjective concept.

To me, reliability has several facets.  One, the actual physical design and construction – I think of Detroit Locker.  Then there are the physical forces that can be applied to the design and construction – I think of a Dual Case Marlin Crawler in a vehicle doing the Hammers.  And thirdly there is the maintenance factor.

A large percentage of the failures I have witnessed in 8 year of sandrailing (about 18 trips a season), and the other 22+ years of 4-wheeling (about every other weekend), was caused by the owner's lack of proper maintenance.  Another large percentage of failures are simply caused by ignorance on the part of the owner to understand what the limitation is of the design and construction – wrong part choice for the application.  And, there is percentage of normal wear and tear and bad luck.

Most of the rock crawlers with a craw t-case's torque conversion and power allows the driver to break anything in the drive train at will.  Does that make the engine unreliable?

So you say "3rz SUPERCHARGED FOR THE WIN!   " So, how reliable is a blown 3RZ? and what would you have to do to it – time and money – if you could make it "RELIABLE"?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE FEB 22 2018

I just filled up my 2nd test tank with 89 octane.  I got 19.43 MPG.  So.. a little better gas mileage since driving it around 68 to 70 MPH instead of 78 and 80 MPH.

I filled up with 87 octane for my 3rd test tank.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

So... you DO NOT believe a $1700 upgrade - to gain the power as predicted in Engine Analyzer software for a 22RE - is worth it?

Gnarls.

I'll admit I'm one of the few, I got my 3rz first cheap (thank you to h8). When it's all said and done I may be pushing 2k to swap it in. To some it would be worth it but for me personally a 22re won't cut it on my fat truck (pushing over 4k when loaded). The 22re is a great motor for reliability not so much for HP.

[redneckcustoms13]

Considering they came from the factory with a super charger and warranty and i have personally seen many with over 200k I would say a long time.

[Cheesemaker]

If I had anything more than the lonely ol 22RE, I would be walking to work.  Cause I like to go fast.  But I cannot afford the speeding tickets, and added insurance.  So, there is absolutely wrong with the dinosaur. 

[:)bestgen4runner]

Considering they came from the factory with a super charger and warranty and i have personally seen many with over 200k I would say a long time.

100% accurate
200K no problem only Mods required to run the TRD supercharger are included in the kit other than a Ecu reflash at the Toyota Dealer (free for Me)

[redneckcustoms13]

If there were more of them out there in price range(stupid cheap) I could give you personal owned experiences. But I have driven 2 and driven quite a few turbo 2/3rz. Boost is amazing on these engines.

[Mudder]

100% accurate
200K no problem only Mods required to run the TRD supercharger are included in the kit other than a Ecu reflash at the Toyota Dealer (free for Me)

Or something like this
https://www.urdusa.com/urd-afr-sensor-calibrator/

[Gnarly4X]

If there were more of them out there in price range(stupid cheap) I could give you personal owned experiences. But I have driven 2 and driven quite a few turbo 2/3rz. Boost is amazing on these engines.

Blowers, turbos, and nitrous always produce amazing boost.... but the reliability, historically, is not so amazing.

In 20 years of 4-wheeling I cannot remember ANY vehicle I wheeled with that was supercharged or turbo'd.  I remember 1 that had a nitrous bottle.

What's my point?  Most of the 4-wheeling I've done has been at very slow crawling and lower RPMs - occasionally WOT (Glamis sand dunes, Mexico cross-country, the Cinders in Northern AZ, some snow runs, and mud runs).

For most of the guys I wheeled with, there was enough time and money spent to keep the typical 4-wheeling vehicle "reliable" without adding an expensive option that essentially does almost nothing to provide effective use of that power while crawling on rock.  Yes... there are times when wheeling that an extra 100 HP would really be nice.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Considering they came from the factory with a super charger and warranty and i have personally seen many with over 200k I would say a long time.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/06/toyota-discontinues-trd-supercharger.html

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I am not a swap type of guy so would go with a 22RE again, but would not do anything special with performance gains in mind.

I agree, and hesitate to jump on a swap project.  I've done it.  And, for me it was ALWAYS way more complicated, time consuming and money than first predicted or estimated.  However, if I'm going to rebuild a 22, I'm going to spend a little extra money and time to get some needed added performance out of it.

I'm not an auto mechanic or an engine builder, so as a limited experienced DIYer, I prefer keeping my truck as simple as possible so I can diagnose it, maintain it, and repair it.  For me, the 22RE, with the ECU and sensors, is difficult and expensive enough, and has inherent limited options for performance gains (compared to a 22R), so I don't want to deal with a 3RZ.

Adding an engnbldr, 22RE Performance, or an LCE custom built and ported head to a 22 is purported to provide an estimated 18 to 20 HP (depending on whose numbers you want to believe).  Adding a header and free-flow exhaust will provide another 10 to 15 HP.  Doing an R&R and adding a head, header, and exhaust system to a healthy running 22 may take a really good mechanic a long day, but it would take me a couple week ends at the very least... assuming I had ALL the parts and ready for assembly.

From my perspective and experience, the gain in torque and HP and keeping it reliable is worth every penny of an estimated $1700 to $2000 investment and a couple week ends of hard labor.

Pulling a 22RE or 22R from a 20 or 30 year old Toyota and rebuilding it from block up is a whole other project, time and money.

That's just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[fasterspider]

I bought my carburetted 22R rig because it was a slow dog on the road, I was going to lose my license again if I didn't get off the motorcycles and until I regeared  to 4.88, speeding was never an option.
I need 25 more up in my rig so she can get to the trail in good time but, I'm happy not getting nailed for speeding anymore but, a few more ft lbs of torque and a few more ponies would be perfect.
My buddy put a 3.4 four cam into his 95 4Runner and I'm jealous as hell but, he has to dirty smog his vehicle to get it registered, I ain't dealing with that.

[Gnarly4X]

If I had anything more than the lonely ol 22RE, I would be walking to work.  Cause I like to go fast.  But I cannot afford the speeding tickets, and added insurance.  So, there is absolutely wrong with the dinosaur. 

*nothing* wrong?

[H8PVMNT]

I love my early carb 20r/22r stuff and I have loved the 22re many times over.  I yanked out a 3RZ in favor of an '81 22r, however, for all around drivability and $ per snort without trying, even I admit the 3RZ spanks the manifitarcus out of a 22r/22re.

That said I love to see people mess around with the 20r/22r/22re so tune away .

[Gnarly4X]

I love my early carb 20r/22r stuff and I have loved the 22re many times over.  I yanked out a 3RZ in favor of an '81 22r, however, for all around drivability and $ per snort without trying, even I admit the 3RZ spanks the manifitarcus out of a 22r/22re.

That said I love to see people mess around with the 20r/22r/22re so tune away .

Hey H,

I always appreciate your input.

I'm a little confused.

Why did you yank the 3RZ and swapped in an '81 22R?

Does a stock 3RZ put out about 150 HP at 4800 and 177 lbs of torque at 4,000?

Assuming that my engine will make 136 HP at 5400 RPMs and 160 lbs of torque at 3200 - I am ONLY interested in what the torque number is for the RPM range where I drive the most – between 2500 and 3500 RPM, with my target peak torque at 3200, and 79 to 80 MPH in 5th gear.  I don't care what the HP is 5400 – I don't "drive" it there.

What RPMs did you drive your truck with the 3RZ installed at your freeway speeds?

I'm curious what the torque number is in a 3RZ at 3200 RPMs?

How much time and money does it take to tune or maintain a 3RZ?

How much money does it cost to repair or rebuild a 3RZ?

For the record, if wanted a more reliable, easy to maintain, easy to tune, and very low cost for parts, many options for performance modifications, for power beyond what I've done with this 22RE rebuild, I would have built and installed a Chevy 4.3L Vortec.  If I wanted more power beyond that – I'd install Chevy LS5.3L or LS6.0L aluminum block.

I also wanted to keep a reasonably good gas mileage, burning 87 octane.  What was your gas mileage with your 3RZ?

I wanted to keep my truck as original and as stock as reasonably possible.  Once I get it tuned and all sensors happy, the reliability should be incredible and the maintenance should be very simple – valve lash adjust, spark plugs, cap & rotor, oil & filter, right?

Admittedly, I know very little about the 3RZ engines, and I'm not suggesting that a 3RZ is not a good swap or a smart swap.  But....for my truck and driving style, it just didn't seem worth the expense to find a no-risk-ready-to-drop-in engine, or rebuilt one, to swap it in, tune it, maintain it, and repair it if necessary.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

The 3rz is on the same level as the 22re reliability wise imo. H8 took his out due to a problem with it not running right which, iirc was a problem woth the wrong injector ohm

[redneckcustoms13]

Just finished installing a 2rz with over 400k on it in a friends 94 sas pickup. It ran like a sewing machine so we opted not to mess with it. Oh yeah, it's his dd to...

[Gnarly4X]

Just finished installing a 2rz with over 400k on it in a friends 94 sas pickup. It ran like a sewing machine so we opted not to mess with it. Oh yeah, it's his dd to...

Was it a 2RZ-FE out of a 1995–2004 Toyota Tacoma?

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

OK you asked for it...

1)  Why did you yank the 3RZ and swapped in an '81 22R?

I yanked it out because I became frustrated with an EFI glitch where the thing would fall on it's face at or near WOT.  I replaced several things and tested things according to what OBDII was telling me. I think the actual problem was with an open element air filter I was using that the ECU just couldn't figure out   .  After spending a few hundred bucks on that stuff, while my 1980 20r was running well on hand-me-downs and being successfully tuned with a hammer, I decided to post the 3RZ up and build a 1981 22r  had laying in the garage.  I had become fascinated with carb and wanted to learn more, see what I could do there, so I did.

So I guess I just did it because I wanted to, and was having more fun with my old carb pickup at the time.  I'm sure I could have figured out the glitch, but I just got a wild hair and went low tech.  I sold the 3RZ for plenty in about a day on the forum here and I have no regrets.  The 3RZ was a fun swap and I enjoyed tuning the 22r extremely a lot too.

2)  Does a stock 3RZ put out about 150 HP at 4800 and 177 lbs of torque at 4,000?

The thing about the 3RZ is it has more torque where we drive and the torque seems to start sooner and last longer in the upper range too.  It has more all over.  You really notice this in terms of overall drivability.

3)What RPMs did you drive your truck with the 3RZ installed at your freeway speeds?

Same gearing and tire so the same, I think I end to be about 3,200 RPMs on the freeway.  I will say you see 5th gear more with the 3RZ.  The 22r is perfectly adequate with the proper gear ratio, the 3RZ just does a little better job bucking head winds and pulling hills without having to stir the tranny.

4 & 5)  How much time and money does it take to tune or maintain a 3RZ?

How much money does it cost to repair or rebuild a 3RZ?

Well, you don't really tune it, you just plug it in and run it.  Mine didn't even have a distributor to mess with.  It all ready makes that little bit of extra power you are looking for so you aren't really pining for more power. Maintenance is pretty on par with a 22re, but for me working out the glitches was more expensive than a 22re, certainly more than messing with a carb 22r.  I was able to rebuild the 3RZ for around $600, but all I had to do was turn the crank and hone and re-ring it.  The engine had a spun out balance shaft bearing, so I deleted the balance shafts.

6)  I also wanted to keep a reasonably good gas mileage, burning 87 octane.  What was your gas mileage with your 3RZ?

This is where they really shine.  Typically I got 18-22 mpg.  On a long trip I could get 26 mpg turning 35" tires with 5.29 gears doing 75 mph.


I agree with you on the drop in, bolt up thing and I am enjoying carb so much now I probably won't go back for a while.  It seems like when you do a swap there are always compromises compared to when you run whatever was intended to be in the particular vehicle, wiring, exhaust routing, the way things fit, etc.  I am glad I did the 3RZ swap. I would do it again in the appropriate vehicle build. 
.

My personal experiences, which may vary from others, have yielded these results:

22re = most reliable, no drama trail truck engine.  Best cold starts.  Just drive it, don't expect anything spectacular.

3RZ = best fuel economy and best drivability.  If it's going to be a swap expect a bit of drama, because it's a swap.  As far as power it's everything you think your built 22r/re should be but isn't.

20r/22r old carb = most fun to mess with and tune, worst fuel economy, not as reliable as the 22re but easier to field fix and get home.  Cheapest to live with day to day.


The 3RZ is not a difficult swap and it can be a very economical way to get an honest 150 HP 4 banger, which is just about right for these trucks.  Admittedly for the same effort you can have WAY more power, but I wouldn't want much more in a trail truck anyway.

I was pulling on Red's 3RZ up a hill with my hybrid, but I think I was driving a bit harder.  I'd love to see you pull against a similar geared 3RZ in a similar driving condition and see how it compares.

I don't think you made a mistake for you using the 22re because it is what you wanted to do and it's fun to see a borderline resto on an '85 pickup.  After driving both I still think the 3RZ just has more all around at any RPM so it is a better waste of cash for anyone just wanting a bit more power in a Toyota pickup than dumping gobs on a 22re.  For me I still have more fun with a carbed 22r so my opinion is truly worthless .

[redneckcustoms13]

Was it a 2RZ-FE out of a 1995–2004 Toyota Tacoma?

Gnarls.

Yes 1996 2wd 5 speed Tacoma. Picked it up wrecked in the front for $400. Sold bed for $150, sold passenger door for $75. Used that money to get toyswaponly mounts.

[:)bestgen4runner]

3RZ for the win.
First test drive I took in Old Red had Me 100% sold. On 37's it would pull hard away from the stop lights.
3RZ for the win.
Andrew should chime in and give His feedback. He went from 22re to 3rz. 

[Gillesdetrail]

The 22re is reliable okay, but not tough in my opinion. If you overheat a little, your chances of blowing a headgasket are high. Some model 22re are known for timing chain guides wearing out quickly and causing other problems like eating through t-chain covers. I blew up two 22r/20r hybrid on the same main bearings in 5000km after I had em. Good oil and level, good timing, good mixture and temperature. Both low mileage engines that I know for myself. So far I've been lucky on my 3rd short block because I've had it for 8000km and I've pushed the envelope on timing and a/f plenty of times but I expect it to go soon. Granted I am very hard on my engines but I never beat them when they are cold, and always shift right when the power goes down around 5200-5500rpms.

I have seen a 3rz take the rev limiter for what amounts to hours, cold or hot, trail after trail, season after season without skipping a beat, but just one can't be judged for the whole. They do seem tough though. And the 2tr-fe seems too.

[300k]

I have no idea how you manged to blow those R motors up. Mine ran off road with no coolant for a good 10 miles. and not a gravel road bombing at 40mph,  it was rocky crap where I was going around 5-10 miles an hour. also why always shift at 5500? I didn't go above 3500 unless I was trying to merge or something.