Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[79coyotefrg]

Taker her down to 87 octane and you'll likely get the same mileage for less money.  Disclaimer: I run premium in the 4Runner because I think it runs smoother though I know there's no reason that it should.

My 4Runner pretty much runs in the 15-17 mpg range no matter if I'm cruising around town or going fast on the highway.

most places now have no ethanol in their premium gas so your rig will run much better with it because of the lack of ethanol.     Around here you can get 87 octane with no ethanol its about 4 cents a gallon more expensive but our 1995 chevy 4x4 suburban gets around 12 mpg on pure gas and runs smooth.  if i am out someplace and have to buy 10% ethanol then my gas mileage will drop to around 8,  the engine runs rough, the engine light comes on.   
My 79 Toyota gets about 17 to 18mpg on regular pure gas but on 10% ethanol the mileage drops to around 10-12 and runs like crap.    AND the engine runs a good 20* hotter on ethanol mix.

[79coyotefrg]

Well... I have to disagree a little bit.  The forum may have an issue with posting photos, and if 300k is correct, it may be an easy fix? But, for me posting on Imgur is easy and it creates a link to copy, and the images are high res.

Regarding the forum overall, I personally think it is one of the best informative forums I've frequented in a few years.  You get out of what you want.  Everyone is different, and so are the posts.

I appreciate the fact that the "moderators" don't try to make it some kind of highly controlled and restricted overly PC'd narrow-minded waste of time.

The Shout Box, I have nick named it the Sandbox, is just a place to meet and shoot-the-poop about whatever.  You can jump into the sandbox and start a conversation and ask questions, like I did earlier today, or just do a drive-by like Shortie Girl does. Or.. you can poop in it for hours like you-know-who.

We have some really great people here (just personalities at this point to me) and many make incredible contributions and are very knowledgeable.  The range of personalities, knowledge, and experiences is deep and wide and that is what makes an interesting, as well as, an entertaining experience.

That's just my opinion.... it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

lol  but really we try. 

[79coyotefrg]

Here's the list for AZ ,  I know several of these are way north but you might find one close to you.  https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=AZ

[Cheesemaker]

Been a while since I was on the Forum.  And now I have spent the last 2 hours catching up on Gnarls build.   


About 4 pages back you mention half moon gaskets, when I did my hg, I got Putney's aluminum half moon gaskets, and I wasted money on those damn things.  I had to grind and file them them to even fit at all.  Then now, they leak like a pregnant dog. 

[Gnarly4X]

Been a while since I was on the Forum.  And now I have spent the last 2 hours catching up on Gnarls build.   


About 4 pages back you mention half moon gaskets, when I did my hg, I got Putney's aluminum half moon gaskets, and I wasted money on those damn things.  I had to grind and file them them to even fit at all.  Then now, they leak like a pregnant dog. 

Hey Cheesemaker,

I hope your 2 hours spent were not a complete waste of time.  I have tried to add as much "pomp and stink" as I can. 

I very much appreciate your feedback on your experience with the metal half moons.

I'm an old DIYer and been fixing and maintaining old cars and trucks since I was kid.  My formal education is physical science, and my professional career has been technical sales and product marketing.  So... I understand how and why companies "sell" their stuff, and I understand a little bit about how things are made and how they work.

In the last 20+ years I, like others, have experienced buying aftermarket parts and finding they don't work, wrong part, or missing something  – for any number of reasons - and you go back to the auto parts store or have to deal with the source.

After reading thousands of posts on automotive forums, I know that much of information is bogus, not backed up any facts, and often just someone's individual experience which may or may not be the norm.

As you know, much of the discussion around our old Toys is about some backyard DIYer genius who comes up with another way of out-doing or thinking they know more than the 50+ years of the Toyota Japanese engineers who arguably make the best automobiles on the planet and get to design, fabricate, and play in their billion dollar "auto shop".

So when it comes to Toyota, there's probably a good reason for the half moons to be made out of rubber.  And as I mentioned back when I posted on the topic, I don't recall ever having a serious problem with them leaking in all 3 of my 22s, since my first one in 1986, although the rear one is a tricky little booger to install correctly.

I'm not saying that the makers and sources for the metal half moons are not a good alternative to the rubber ones.  I'm just saying in MY experience I have a hard time understanding why the metal ones are better than the rubber metal ones.  Is it good sales and marketing?  Or, do the metal ones work better?  Just looking at the simple well known physical properties of metal, there is difference in the coefficient of expansion. So does the metal used for the half moon expand and contract at the same exact rate as the alloy Toyota head?  Then there is the actual physical dimensions of the half moons. The maker of the metal half moons assumes that their machined dimensions will always fit exactly into every head.  Really?  How did they do that?

Great marketing does not always mean that what is being sold is a great product.

That's just my opinion – it may be worthless. 

Gnarls. 

[Cheesemaker]

I thought I would "try" them since I got tired of replacing them.   

[300k]

About 4 pages back you mention half moon gaskets, when I did my hg, I got Putney's aluminum half moon gaskets, and I wasted money on those damn things.  I had to grind and file them them to even fit at all.  Then now, they leak like a pregnant dog. 

hah, sucks to suck. when I ordered my head I also ordered the billet half moons. He made sure they fit the best, and sent me a #8 for the front and a #7 for the back. Where were you having fitment issues? with the curve or in between the lips? I guess if they really didn't fit, you could have spent some time with dykem and a file to make sure you're only removing what you need to.

[Gnarly4X]

hah, sucks to suck. ... He made sure they fit the best....

That should be a red flag!!

I check and adjust my valve lash at least every 6 months, so I install a new gasket set, with molded cover gasket, the grommets, and the rubber half moons.  I always take extra care to clean the head where the half moons sit.  I use lacquer thinner or carb cleaner.  I  use a generous amount Permatex High Temp RED.  I do not have any issues with oil leaks around the molded cover gasket or the half moons.

The Beck Arnley gasket kit I just bought was about $15.00, so for the price of the aluminum half moons $30, that may or may not leak, I'll just continue installing a new gasket kit every 6 months or so.  If the rubber ones are good enough for those little Japanese Toyota engineers, they're good enough for me.

Gnarls.

[300k]

That should be a red flag!!

I check and adjust my valve lash at least every 6 months, so I install a new gasket set, with molded cover gasket, the grommets, and the rubber half moons.  I always take extra care to clean the head where the half moons sit.  I use lacquer thinner or carb cleaner.  I  use a generous amount Permatex High Temp RED.  I do not have any issues with oil leaks around the molded cover gasket or the half moons.

The Beck Arnley gasket kit I just bought was about $15.00, so for the price of the aluminum half moons $30, that may or may not leak, I'll just continue installing a new gasket kit every 6 months or so.  If the rubber ones are good enough for those little Japanese Toyota engineers, they're good enough for me.

Gnarls.

Those little Japanese Toyota engineers DID eventually switch over to the superior, reusable metal half moons.

I'm curious how Cheese installed them? here's the install video from 22REP

[Gnarly4X]

Those little Japanese Toyota engineers DID eventually switch over to the superior, reusable metal half moons.

Even the legendary Toyota has stepped on their erection more than once!! 

Gnarls. 

[300k]

has stepped on their erection more than once!! 

must be an old guy thing?

[Gnarly4X]

I'm curious how Cheese installed them? here's the install video from 22REP

He had to re-manufacturer them!!! BEFORE he could install them!!

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker]

The head casting was larger than the groove in the half moons.  Out of the bag, they wouldn't even fit.  Had a 1/4" of the half moon sticking up above the lip of the head! 


I have some Fel Pro half moons I will swap out, when I tear into my axle seal issue.   

[Gnarly4X]

The head casting was larger than the groove in the half moons.  Out of the bag, they wouldn't even fit.  Had a 1/4" of the half moon sticking up above the lip of the head! 


I have some Fel Pro half moons I will swap out, when I tear into my axle seal issue.   

Wow... that sounds like the half moons you received had not yet been machined?

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

BFH ?

[Gnarly4X]

BFH ?

BFH? 

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

On the aluminum half-moons.......

BIG  F...ING  HAMMER

[Gnarly4X]

On the aluminum half-moons.......

BIG  F...ING  HAMMER

Oh yes I haven't seen that acronym used for quite a while yeah that's a good one!

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE FEB 21 2018

I was looking at some numbers today.  Based on my rebuild, Engine Analyzer shows an increase in Peak Torque of 15 foot lbs., and an increase in Peak HP of 22 horsepower.

For main upgrade engine parts only and complete machine shop work, in round dollars, I spent approximately $2,500 for a complete 22RE rebuild kit (which included RV head, oversize valves, 261C Crawler cam, bearing, pistons, rings, oil pump, t-chain kit, and gaskets),  injectors rebuilt, Doug Thorley header, 2.25" free flow exhaust.

If I took a fresh and healthy low-mileage stock 22RE and simply upgraded it with a head, OS valves, cam, header and exhaust, I would spend about $1,700, for a very similar gain in Torque and HP.  A rebuild with a .020" over bore will yield another pound or two of torque and HP.

Not counting labor or other costs, is $1,700 worth the gain in Torque and HP? 

Attached is the Excel spread sheet.

Gnarls. 

[blackdiamond]

 It sure I understand the question. You spent more for a total rebuild vs. only a partial rebuild.  At the levels of hp and torque that you can reasonably get from a 22RE I don't think it's worth spending any real money for a little more. No matter what I don't d to my 4Runner's engine my gutless Civic would still destroy it I suspect.

[redneckcustoms13]

I have one number and 2 letters that can be done for much less.
















































3RZ

[300k]

I have one number and 3 letters that can be done for much less.


3RZ

I only see two letters?

[Gnarly4X]

I have one number and 3 letters that can be done for much less.   3RZ 

Hey r,

What is the power spec for 3RZ?

So... for the power gain, you DON'T think a $1700 upgrade (on a healthy 22RE (it would be essentially a bolt-in and bolt-on gain) to a 22RE is worth it?

There's no doubt upgrades and swaps can be done for a wide range of actual out of pocket costs.  For 4 years I looked at my truck every morning sitting useless in my garage.

Since didn't *need* to drive it, I had lots of options for its resurrection.  My first want was to swap in a GM LS.  My curiosity was too much and I wanted to know what restoring 32 year old truck and legendary engine would cost in time and money.  And... I wanted to know what kind of power increase I could get with just the basic upgrades.  The truck is in really excellent condition, so I decided to restore it, keeping it as original as possible, and just upgrade the 22RE.

Knowing what I know NOW, and if I could go back in time, I would just swap in an LS 6.0 aluminum block, depending upon any issues getting licensed in my State.

If I were to do another rebuild of 22RE, I would convert it to a 22R.  I  DO NOT like having to deal with and spend time and money on the ECU and sensors and the necessary tuning required.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I only see two letters?

300k... you made me laugh out loud again.... At 3am in the morning. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

It sure I understand the question. You spent more for a total rebuild vs. only a partial rebuild.  At the levels of hp and torque that you can reasonably get from a 22RE I don't think it's worth spending any real money for a little more. No matter what I don't d to my 4Runner's engine my gutless Civic would still destroy it I suspect.

Hi bd,

Yes, my complete rebuild included way more than I first expected.  I have North of $5,000 in out of pocket costs to get this restore in drivable condition - I still have some tuning to do and get it to cold start.

So... you DO NOT believe a $1700 upgrade - to gain the power as predicted in Engine Analyzer software for a 22RE - is worth it?

Gnarls.

[redneckcustoms13]

3rz makes 158hp. Boost it and it can go upwards of 300. So
No not in any way shape or form do I see how $1700 is worth a few hp on an outdated 22re with its lack of tunability when you could buy an entire donor truck with a 3rz for less than that.

[blackdiamond]

Hi bd,

Yes, my complete rebuild included way more than I first expected.  I have North of $5,000 in out of pocket costs to get this restore in drivable condition - I still have some tuning to do and get it to cold start.

So... you DO NOT believe a $1700 upgrade - to gain the power as predicted in Engine Analyzer software for a 22RE - is worth it?

Gnarls.

I am not a swap type of guy so would go with a 22RE again, but would not do anything special with performance gains in mind.

[redneckcustoms13]

We all have our opinions on things and this is where most of us differ. Bd, you seem to enjoy using your rig more than building it. Nothing wrong with that. Some people however enjoy the build just as much if not more than using the rig. Having said that we all know how much gnarls is enjoying re working his old truck. I'm a little disappointed to see all this money spent and all the attention to detail with a 22re being the focus. Especially when there are such better options that literally bolt in place and require a little wiring.

[fasterspider]

That should be a red flag!!

I check and adjust my valve lash at least every 6 months, so I install a new gasket set, with molded cover gasket, the grommets, and the rubber half moons.  I always take extra care to clean the head where the half moons sit.  I use lacquer thinner or carb cleaner.  I  use a generous amount Permatex High Temp RED.  I do not have any issues with oil leaks around the molded cover gasket or the half moons.

The Beck Arnley gasket kit I just bought was about $15.00, so for the price of the aluminum half moons $30, that may or may not leak, I'll just continue installing a new gasket kit every 6 months or so.  If the rubber ones are good enough for those little Japanese Toyota engineers, they're good enough for me.

Gnarls.

I also adjust valves twice a year because I enjoy the task and my next door neighbor who works in an auto parts store brings me home FelPro gasket sets for cost and being changed every six months or so leaves me no chance of an oil leak out of the cam cover.

[Gnarly4X]

We all have our opinions on things and this is where most of us differ. Bd, you seem to enjoy using your rig more than building it. Nothing wrong with that. Some people however enjoy the build just as much if not more than using the rig. Having said that we all know how much gnarls is enjoying re working his old truck. I'm a little disappointed to see all this money spent and all the attention to detail with a 22re being the focus. Especially when there are such better options that literally bolt in place and require a little wiring.

Hey r,

Sorry that my thread is disappointing. 

If I start a thread on a LS 6.0 swap, would that make you less disappointed?

Gnarls.