Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[blackdiamond]

so then why shy away from the LCE header which moves power up high? It seems like it's a better idea than getting a header for low to mid torque and a matching cam?

Cams can certainly change the power band on an engine and I think a header might be able to compliment a cam, but I really don't see how they can really work very well on their own based on what little I know about them.  When I had my 2000 SS Camaro I did a little research on headers and what I learned was that the longer a header is the lower the rpm that it is effective at.  The long tube headers on the LS1 were like 42 inches long and ran clear back under the floorboard.  It took that much header to bring the useful range down to something reasonable.  People didn't really see much improvement with the shorter headers.  They can improve on the stock manifold in many cases, but isn't the Toyota one supposed to be pretty decent already?

[300k]

isn't the Toyota one supposed to be pretty decent already?

I think they made a tri y header for the early trucks. I have the one that gnarls had where all 4 ports meet up in a chamber and then all get bottle necked down two ports. Safe to say, it's probably not much for power

[Gnarly4X]

I think they made a tri y header for the early trucks. I have the one that gnarls had where all 4 ports meet up in a chamber and then all get bottle necked down two ports. Safe to say, it's probably not much for power

The Tri-Y design is based on the scavenging, pulse wave, and velocity aspects of the exhaust flow.  It has been described for 5 decades.  The increase in torque and HP numbers when adding a bolt-on tube header and opened exhaust is very well documented, although some "documents" may be difficult to get see.

Mid range RPM is where 99% of us actually use the power most of the drive time.  Even with a crawler case and rock crawling, the RPM is up around 2500 quite often – right when the increase in torque begins.

In a stock 22RE, the changes can be considered slight, however, in my experience the change in torque by a few pounds is noticeable.  In stock 22R, the changes, for me, were more noticeable.

When I took my stock 96 HP 22R and increased the torque by 5 ft lbs at 3200 RPM and increased HP by 4 HP at 4900 RPM, I could really feel the difference in my 3200 lb. truck.

The stock exhaust manifold on a 22 simply restricts exhaust flow.  A tube header "releases" the power that the engine can produce, so it can pump air faster with more CFM.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

The Tri-Y design is based on the scavenging, pulse wave, and velocity aspects of the exhaust flow.  It has been described for 5 decades.  The increase in torque and HP numbers when adding a bolt-on tube header and opened exhaust is very well documented, although some “documents” may be difficult to get see.

Mid range RPM is where 99% of us actually use the power most of the drive time.  Even with a crawler case and rock crawling, the RPM is up around 2500 quite often – right when the increase in torque begins.

In a stock 22RE, the changes can be considered slight, however, in my experience the change in torque by a few pounds is noticeable.  In stock 22R, the changes, for me, were more noticeable.

When I took my stock 96 HP 22R and increased the torque by 5 ft lbs at 3200 RPM and increased HP by 4 HP at 4900 RPM, I could really feel the difference in my 3200 lb. truck.

The stock exhaust manifold on a 22 simply restricts exhaust flow.  A tube header “releases” the power that the engine can produce, so it can pump air faster with more CFM.

Gnarls.

You should do a horsepower to weight ratio test.  If you figured out what % the ratio was improved with a 5 hp gain then you could do the opposite by adding weight and see if you can really feel the difference.  Have someone else put the weight in or not and see if you can consistently tell the difference.

I know my Camaro felt significantly stronger without passengers meaning that I could feel a couple hundred pound difference.  I'd be curious to see how small the required weight would be for you to know 100% of the time if it was there or not.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE February 7 2018

I checked out the copper crush washer that came in the hardware kit from Summit Racing and referred to by DT.

I don't see how this is the correct solution to the 2 studs that have a .040" gap between the head mating surface and the DT header flange.

I am going to use a larger copper washer for the 2 studs (I purchased from Harbor Freight), and the center bolt that the installation hardware came in.

My reasoning is simple.  If I only use the wrong sized copper washer included in the kit on just the center bolt, the other two head studs STILL have a .040" gap that when I torque down the header nuts, will NOT have any surface to clamp to!!!

I am not happy with the solution that Doug Thorley has provided and believe this is NOT the correct way to install their header on my 22RE new engnbldr head.

Doug Thorley SHOULD include in their kit 3 proper sized copper washers, both EGR block off plate bolts, and two 2-1/4" exhaust clamps.

Although not a big deal, I should NOT have to cut off 3" of the end of the heat shield to allow enough room for the O2 sensor to keep it from touching and causing a vibration noise.  The bung could have been in better location on the primary collector.

Here is the link to the photos:   https://imgur.com/a/TZOCJ

EDIT:   
I want to add a summary of my experience with Summit Racing and Doug Thorley Headers.

The customer service from Summit Racing has been excellent!  I got my DT header 3 days after I ordered it.  When I talked to Frankie in Customer Service on Monday, she was very gracious and allowed me to rant about my bad experience with the DT header.  She offered to refund my cost of the 2 EGR block off plates bolts that I had buy to replace the stripped ones that came off the stock manifold.  I assume that DT expects you to use those old bolts, but for the cost of the header, the cost of 2 new bolts included in the kit would avoid having to buy new ones and they are not easily sourced.  Frankie sent me a new DT gasket at no charge and I just got it in less than 48 hours.

Mike at Doug Thorley Headers in California yesterday afternoon allowed me to rant about my issues, then verified what I ordered, and the fact that I did NOT read the Installation Instructions carefully and I did not use the center hole bolt or the copper washer included in the hardware kit. He also explained the O2 sensor and how it works in that header.  He also shared the dyno results of their testing that header on 22R/RE engine.

Gnarls.

[andykrow]

He also shared the dyno results of their testing that header on 22R/RE engine.

Care to share that with the rest of us?

I had the same heat shield issue with the O2 sensor, i just bent it out of the way.

[Gnarly4X]

Care to share that with the rest of us?

I had the same heat shield issue with the O2 sensor, i just bent it out of the way.

Sure...  I'll post it tonight.

The heat shield on my truck will need to be trimmed.  It's between the fire and the O2 sensor.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Care to share that with the rest of us?

After re-thinking sharing any dyno information and before I publish any numbers, I want of verify with Doug Thorley that any information on their testing is OK to post here on a public forum.  Over the past years I have always held private conversations with suppliers in confidence unless the information they are sharing with me is already published.

I'll talk to Mike again see what he says.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

I suspect the info to be over inflated (fake news) or highly disappointing (most likely).  :bull crap:

[Gnarly4X]

I suspect the info to be over inflated (fake news) or highly disappointing (most likely).  :bull crap:

Skewed data.  

Marketing hype.

Bogus information. 

Phony Boloney.

HDFN.... Highly Disappointing Fake News.

Gnarls.

[300k]

Just out: dough thorny header produces 50% power increase over stock!!

[blackdiamond]

Just out: dough thorny header produces 50% power increase over stock!!

So up to 1.5 hp now?

[redneckcustoms13]

Still ~30 less hp than a stock 3rz that doesn't need a 45 page thread to bolt in and do a little wiring. 

[Mudder]

Still ~30 less hp than a stock 3rz that doesn't need a 45 page thread to bolt in and do a little wiring. 

45 pages full of BS that won't help anyone as they have to wade through all 45 pages to find any decent info. 

And yes, I understand that this doesn't add anything either.

[redneckcustoms13]

I just like to give gnarls a hard time.

[Gnarly4X]

MUDDER... DON'T READ THIS... YOUR 2-DIGIT I.Q. PIN HEAD CAN ONLY HANDLE SO MUCH BS - 45 PAGES IS YOUR LIMIT!! 

UPDATE FEB 9 PM

I was able thin a copper washer by hand rubbing it on a piece of emery cloth, and slip it in between the header flange and the head - WITHOUT having to remove the header, and inserting the center bolt through the flange and washer into head!
I removed the heat shield that O2 sensor was pressing against.

I took it for another test drive, about 55 miles. I am very impressed with the increase in power through out the RPM range.  It definitely has more torque from 2000 through 4500 RPM.  It will easily rev to 5,000 in 1st and 2nd gears.  At 3,200 RPM in 5fh gear it's doing 78 MPH, right where it feels happy, with a very light gas pedal.  I can press the gas pedal down and still get some nice pull in 5th gear at 78 MPH.  Getting onto the freeway, it will easily rev through the gears to 4,000 RPM to 4th gear with lots of pull.

At this point I only have a temporary exhaust pipe set up with the DT 2-1/4" coupler pipe from the header collector back to where the cat would be, then 1-7/8" back to turbo muffler and out to tail pipe. I like the sound.  It's not loud, and has a deep throaty sound.  It has a slight rap at 5,000 in 1st gear.  Considering the temporary tubing and I don't have this engine fine tuned yet, I am very impressed with its performance. I'm anxious to see what kind of gas mileage it gets when I'm not WOT all the time.

Running down the freeway at 78 MPH I don't hear any excessive exhaust noise.

The bad news is I have a slight transmission gear oil leak!!  It has two drops of oil on the bottom edge the bell housing after about 55 miles of mostly freeway driving!  I cannot figure out why the oil is leaking out of the tranny?

I will pull the plugs Sunday and see what they look like.

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

Just out: dough thorny header produces 50% power increase over stock!!

That's not news!!  Everybody knows THAT!!...it's been out for 32 years for sure!!

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

MUDDER... DON'T READ THIS... YOUR 2-DIGIT I.Q. PIN HEAD CAN ONLY HANDLE SO MUCH BS - 45 PAGES IS YOUR LIMIT!! 

Getting pretty petty there eh? Didn't realise I had to watch what I said on a forum.

p.s I've read 100+ page threads before for all the info. and it's also pinhead, no space.

[Gnarly4X]

Getting pretty petty there eh? Didn't realise I had to watch what I said on a forum.

p.s I've read 100+ page threads before for all the info. and it's also pinhead, no space.

Hey Mudder,

Naahh... I'm just shoot'n some poop back at you.  I don't take anything posted on a forum personally.. it's just text to me. 

You've been around long enough to know how the forums work. 

I actually really enjoy ALL of the forum activity... from flaming to friendly heckling, from the idiotic non-sense to the pure genius shared by some. 

You are right... in the best threads there is lots of Bravo Sierra.. that's just the way we humans communicate on a public venue. 

Since you joined as Mudder, you have only posted 552 times since May 2015, about 2 years and 9 months.  How many of your posts would be considered to be male bovine feces free? 

I have posted 2170 times in about 14 months since I joined in July of 2016.  Most my post are probably too verbose, but I try to post good technical information with photos and the descriptions of what I experience. Hopefully that will give the reader better insight into my reality. 

If you are interested in any aspect of my engine rebuild thread, I am happy to post a direct link so don't have to sift through the "BS". 

You posted this in the Shout Box last night:   "Mudder [11:35 PM]:
It really is in sad shape" 

Referring to the status of this forum.  What have YOU contributed to make it better? 

Of course, nobody is forced to click on any thread. 

It's your choice how you engage – you can lurk or you can be a lush. 


Gnarls.

[Mudder]

The sad shape has nothing to do with the quality of posts. Just simply an observation of the lay put and what one has to go through to host images to this one compared to others. Yes, I prefer to lurk and I never said that my posts are free of BS, after all its the internet.

I wonder if the lube you put on the lip of the seal came off before you got a chance to drive your truck. My personal preference is to use a lithium based grease or engine rebuild lube when installing seals for that reason.

[Gnarly4X]

The sad shape has nothing to do with the quality of posts. Just simply an observation of the lay put and what one has to go through to host images to this one compared to others. Yes, I prefer to lurk and I never said that my posts are free of BS, after all its the internet.

I wonder if the lube you put on the lip of the seal came off before you got a chance to drive your truck. My personal preference is to use a lithium based grease or engine rebuild lube when installing seals for that reason.

Hey Mudder,


I'm not sure why, but you had me laughing out loud!

I think its your serious tone or British style humor.  I did deliberate on what lube to use on that seal. I ended up with a very light coating of synthetic wheel bearing grease.  But engine pre-lube seems like a good idea.

I'm very puzzled on why it is still leaking?  I think its leaking around the seal, but why? Could be too much pressure inside the transmission, or the Mobile 1 gear lube is too slippery?... just got me going nuts.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

I doubt it could be the gear oil, I say that because a good seal would not allow oil by it. I would guess that there's either a bit of a groove that the seal is riding on or its possible you manged to get a bad seal. If it was me and I had to redo it is either use a Marlin seal (if they sell them) or a Toyota seal and just double and triple check measurements on the shaft area assuming that's were the leak is.

Someone more knowledgeable may chime in but think W56 transmissions of that year don't have breathers, you could install one in the plate where the shifter lives.

I'll also add, don't take anything I say personal. I call things how I see them, it's how I was raised and it can be a down fall.

[blackdiamond]

The sad shape has nothing to do with the quality of posts. Just simply an observation of the lay put and what one has to go through to host images to this one compared to others. Yes, I prefer to lurk and I never said that my posts are free of BS, after all its the internet.

I have always loaded picture directly one the forum so wasn't really impacted by the recent issue with pictures, but it did take a lot away from the forum.  I'd go so far to say that the forum as a whole is a low spot.  The action in the chat box has picked up compared to years past, but the content is rarely worth anyones time (even though I participate at times too).  I don't feel that there's a lot going on for builds either so the forum feels limited.  Things got a little heated with SqWADoosh but at least he provided some action!

[Gnarly4X]

GNARLY4X UPDATE FEB 10 2018

I checked the bell housing for any transmission oil leaking and test drove my truck about 45 miles.  I've been taching up to 5,000 RPM through the gears, so I've been WOT a few times.  It seems to rev even better this afternoon.  Tach'd it to 5500 in 1st gear a couple times and it pulled hard to 5,000.  Perhaps mammaECU is teaching her little sensors to make some adjustments to the new header, and I've put close to another hundred miles on the break-in. 

I'll do a compression check and examine the spark plugs tomorrow. 

The REALLY great news is ...... no more gear oil leak!! 

At least if it is leaking, it's not very much because there was only one ¼" thin layer spot on the bottom the bell housing (not even drip) where it couples to the flex plate. 

Although I only have my 1st 1986 22RE and my 1985 22R to compare to, at this point I am VERY pleased with the performance and this camshaft and head from engnbldr.  My 85 22R Standard Cab was very quick and about 300 lbs lighter than this truck, but I think this '86 22RE is putting out more torque and HP.  I will start driving it to work and pretend that gas is $10 a gallon so I can see what kind of fuel mileage it will give me. 

I have some things to do:

1 – Some fine tuning
2 - Fix the power steering gear leak
3 – Have the muffler shop finish the exhaust tubing and muffler install
4  - Get about 2500 to 3000 miles on the engine.

Once I have the engine running like I think it should, I'm going to take it to the speed shop and have it chassis dyon'd. 

I'm feeling good tonight... there is just the one leak at the steering gear box. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

I doubt it could be the gear oil, I say that because a good seal would not allow oil by it. I would guess that there's either a bit of a groove that the seal is riding on or its possible you manged to get a bad seal. If it was me and I had to redo it is either use a Marlin seal (if they sell them) or a Toyota seal and just double and triple check measurements on the shaft area assuming that's were the leak is.

Someone more knowledgeable may chime in but think W56 transmissions of that year don't have breathers, you could install one in the plate where the shifter lives.

Hey Mudder,

Yes, I checked the input shaft for groove and mic'd it.  It was a Toyota seal, and best out of 4 that I compared.  Man, I was anal about this seal and housing gasket install.  I did everything according the experts.

... I call things how I see them, it's how I was raised and it can be a down fall.

Well... I won't hold that against you! 

Gnarls.

[300k]

EB told me his break-in is to do the initial seating of the rockers to the cam, but not to go over 4500RPM for 500 miles. How many miles are on your rebuild?

[Gnarly4X]

I have always loaded picture directly one the forum so wasn't really impacted by the recent issue with pictures, but it did take a lot away from the forum.  I'd go so far to say that the forum as a whole is a low spot.  The action in the chat box has picked up compared to years past, but the content is rarely worth anyones time (even though I participate at times too).  I don't feel that there's a lot going on for builds either so the forum feels limited.  Things got a little heated with SqWADoosh but at least he provided some action!

Well... I have to disagree a little bit.  The forum may have an issue with posting photos, and if 300k is correct, it may be an easy fix? But, for me posting on Imgur is easy and it creates a link to copy, and the images are high res.

Regarding the forum overall, I personally think it is one of the best informative forums I've frequented in a few years.  You get out of what you want.  Everyone is different, and so are the posts.

I appreciate the fact that the "moderators" don't try to make it some kind of highly controlled and restricted overly PC'd narrow-minded waste of time.

The Shout Box, I have nick named it the Sandbox, is just a place to meet and shoot-the-poop about whatever.  You can jump into the sandbox and start a conversation and ask questions, like I did earlier today, or just do a drive-by like Shortie Girl does. Or.. you can poop in it for hours like you-know-who.

We have some really great people here (just personalities at this point to me) and many make incredible contributions and are very knowledgeable.  The range of personalities, knowledge, and experiences is deep and wide and that is what makes an interesting, as well as, an entertaining experience.

That's just my opinion.... it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

EB told me his break-in is to do the initial seating of the rockers to the cam, but not to go over 4500RPM for 500 miles. How many miles are on your rebuild?

Hey 300k,

Yes, I remember the break-in discussion I had with Tod at engnbldr.  I fired the engine and that injector was not firing, so I broke in the camshaft for about 20 minutes.  After fixing the bad connector on the injector wire, I drove the truck easy.. kept the RPM below 3,000 for about the 1st 50 miles, then I tach'd it up several times to 4,000.  I varied the RPMs for another 100 miles or so, with some compression down-shifting.  After a couple hundred miles I was taching it up to 5,000 in 1st and 2nd gears.

I also had several other discussions on how to break it in with some other serious engine builders.  At that point, I went with my gut.. right, wrong, or indifferent.  I've always had a lead-foot and I will not baby my vehicles.  I drive them hard, but make love to them often.

It now has very close to 700 miles on it.

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

Well... I have to disagree a little bit.  The forum may have an issue with posting photos, and if 300k is correct, it may be an easy fix? But, for me posting on Imgur is easy and it creates a link to copy, and the images are high res.

Regarding the forum overall, I personally think it is one of the best informative forums I've frequented in a few years.  You get out of what you want.  Everyone is different, and so are the posts.

I appreciate the fact that the "moderators" don't try to make it some kind of highly controlled and restricted overly PC'd narrow-minded waste of time.

The Shout Box, I have nick named it the Sandbox, is just a place to meet and shoot-the-poop about whatever.  You can jump into the sandbox and start a conversation and ask questions, like I did earlier today, or just do a drive-by like Shortie Girl does. Or.. you can poop in it for hours like you-know-who.

We have some really great people here (just personalities at this point to me) and many make incredible contributions and are very knowledgeable.  The range of personalities, knowledge, and experiences is deep and wide and that is what makes an interesting, as well as, an entertaining experience.

That's just my opinion.... it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

I had to look at the data, but I joined this forum around 15 years ago and have had periods of activity and times where I was not active at all. I remember times when it was hard to keep up with all of the builds and there were a lot more active members.  BLACKDOG, FFC, Crawlerdan, to name a few.

If I didn't consider members of the forum personal friends I would likely lose interest.

[Gnarly4X]

... around 15 years ago.....

Wow... that's a long stretch.

If I didn't consider members of the forum personal friends I would likely lose interest.

I don't recall ever meeting in person any one of the members of any of the many forums I've been a member of since 1999.  I consider the active members just a SMPs (Social Media Personalities).  A social media personality can be very different from the person you meet and get to know in person.  I believe there is a tendency to create an alter ego as a social media participator.  Sitting behind a keyboard you can be just about anybody you want to be, and create an infinite virtual reality.

As with most people,  I have seen photos and video clips of members at times and my impression of them when just reading their text was very different than the visual image.  During my long professional career in Technical Sales & Marketing, I met many people on the telephone before ever meeting them in person, and it was always interesting to experience the difference between just a voice and the person in the flesh.

Gnarls.