What do you think of Christ?

[Ebbs15]

One key word that I see here is all your "mind".. meaning that it has to make sense to you.. dont follow it blindly if it doesnt makes sense.. to me it makes sense, and logically is right... a lot of people say its all about faith.. but its not... its got to make sense to you. Faith is definitly important, but were not told to follow it blindly. That would cause confusion, and the Lord is not about confusion.

[GAME SHOW VOICE] DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!  WHAT DO WE HAVE FOR HIM TOM?! [\GAME SHOW VOICE]

Exactly... I just want it to make sence... I have doubts because it doesn't make sence to me... doesn't seem quite right...

thanks for putting it the way I couldn't... I'ma no gooded witda wurds 

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

OK OK what part of the bible doesnt make sense to you and I will slowly explain it to you.

[Ebbs15]

OK OK what part of the bible doesnt make sense to you and I will slowly explain it to you.

ALL of it... it dosn't make sence because there is no proof to solidify the events/statements within it... you can explain it all you want and it's not going to make it any clearer to me... I can read it for myself.  and have... well most of it... and am still left with MANY doubts...  but if it'll humor ya... start at page 1 

[germ]

Exactly... I just want it to make sence... I have doubts because it doesn't make sence to me... doesn't seem quite right...

I would encourage you to seek out a program called "Amazing Facts". While it is primarily Adventist, it really applies to anyone who is searching for the truth. They have a web site, which can be found by googling "Amazing Facts". This is by far the most comprehensive, logical approach to evaluating the Bible that I have seen. They talk alot about the "mysteries" of the bible, and what it all means. This is what solidified my belief in God, and helped me to look deeper into the Bible for the answers to my questions.

I too have problems with organized religion. The best way I've found to decide on the right church, is to look for one that teaches the truth according to the Bible, and not church doctrine. Go there to learn about God, Christ and what the Bible teaches us. Throw away all the other BS. Try and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, because if you let him, he will. God wants us to love him and follow his teachings, I don't think he really cares which church you go to.

Erik

[Ebbs15]

I would encourage you to seek out a program called "Amazing Facts". While it is primarily Adventist, it really applies to anyone who is searching for the truth. They have a web site, which can be found by googling "Amazing Facts". This is by far the most comprehensive, logical approach to evaluating the Bible that I have seen. They talk alot about the "mysteries" of the bible, and what it all means. This is what solidified my belief in God, and helped me to look deeper into the Bible for the answers to my questions.

I will check it out... but just so you know... I've been "tipped off" to several diffrent sites/books/people/movies that supposedly talked about the mysteries of the bible... but the more I looked the more I found insanly skewed and biased facts... many of which were only part thruths... not saying the one you sudgest is... just letting you know that i have looked...

I just wish I could remember the sites/books/people/movies that I was refered to... ugh... been hit in the head by my girl friend too many times

[germ]

ALL of it... it dosn't make sence because there is no proof to solidify the events/statements within it... you can explain it all you want and it's not going to make it any clearer to me... I can read it for myself.  and have... well most of it... and am still left with MANY doubts...  but if it'll humor ya... start at page 1

The problem I see with this approach is that you are trying to take it appart piece by piece, and have it make sense. Unfortunatly this doesn't work.

As an analogy, I can prove to you, piece by piece that the holocaust never happened. However when you look at it in its entirety (sp?), there is no way you can say the Holocaust never occured.

Like the Bible, you have to look at it not as a series of facts which can be proven or disproven, but rather as a blueprint for how God wishes us to live our lives. Rather than say "step one" blah blah blah, Step two: blah blah blah, God uses parables and stories to demonstrate the type of love he wishes us to show each other and the respect and love he wishes us to show him. It also shows the love he has for us and what we can expect if we follow him. It is also pretty clear what will happen if we don't. It can be very confusing at times, because there is alot of symbolism and metafores, which occasionally don't make much sense if your just reading the words. It takes concentrated study with "accompany" type literature (written by people who have much more time to devote to this than most) to help with some of the more metaforically (is that even a word?) heavy subjects, like Daniel and Revalations.

The Bible teaches that "There is wisdom in the counsel of many". Like Blackdiamond, I have several books which focus on different aspects of the Bible to try and help clarify some of the more mystical sections. If you can get some of these at the library, you can read thru the Bible and see what some of these books have to offer as clarification. After a while, it will make more and more sense. It takes time and energy, but it also has a fantastic reward!

Erik

[germ]

I will check it out... but just so you know... I've been "tipped off" to several diffrent sites/books/people/movies that supposedly talked about the mysteries of the bible... but the more I looked the more I found insanly skewed and biased facts... many of which were only part thruths... not saying the one you sudgest is... just letting you know that i have looked...

Your aboslutly right. There is a ton of just plain BS out there, and you have to pick and choose carefully what you listen to. While it's not always easy, especially when your first starting to try and understand the Bible, try and look up the references they provide. I also make a point of reading several passages before and after the referenced item, to make sure I've got the right context. It's amazing how many "truths" are really false, because they're taken out of the proper context. (some examples in the earlier pages of this thread I think)

The part I appreciated about this seminar, is that for every statement, claim or suggestion, they always went back to the Bible. If it wasn't supported by the Bible, then it was tossed out as "fiction"

Erik

[chim]

No offence Germ... but I think you are confusing the situation...  I think the best thing for ebss15 to do is to "pray" about it.  I Think that he can read all the websites and commentaries and still not get anything out of it...  there are people who dedicate their whole lives to the study of the bible yet dont believe or really understand a word of it...   


Here is a word of advice straight from the bible:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

We dont need other men to teach us.. we have the Holy Spirit as our teacher.. I know that if you truly are "searching" that you should ask for God to reveal some truth to you...  he is faithful to answer your prayer... ask for the Spirit to teach you..  dont let anyone on this board tell you otherwise.

[blackdiamond]

I think that Germ is on the right track, the key is to be able to distinguish the BS from the truth.  Here is a quote from the book Searching For A God To Love (by Chris Blake) that I think is relavant, "As you read through this book, take what makes sense, cover it within your coat, and toss the rest away, or simply hang the remainder on a hook at the back of your mind to be explored later.  Too many people have surrendered their search for truth because they became riddled by a tumor of doubt."

I will post a little more later... 

[blackdiamond]

At the risk of posting too much information again, I am going to post three sections of a great book that I am reading for the 3rd or 4th time.  In my opinion, every Christian, and non-Christian, could benefit from reading this book.  If I had the cash, I would love to purchase it and pass it out to everyone that I know.

As I mentioned before, I had the opportunity to take English 101 and Basic Speech from the author.  He pushed us to be discriptive in our writing, and I think that the book provides both thoughtful learning and entertainment.  The bottom line is that I can assure you that he is a genuine person. 

Ebbs15 - This quote is for everyone and is not specifically directed at you, we can all get into the same type of "rut." 

NO4x & Chim - Pardon the embedded EG White quote, you can ignore that part if you want.

Don't feel required to read the information, but I think it all applies to the current topic of discussion.

Searching For A God To Love
By Chris Blake

"The bouts about doubt

Doubts have driven millions from God and steered millions toward God.  Most of us hold healthy reservations on what we hear about God; doubtless we can become fanatical, woodenheaded, and self-serving.

Many commentators have expressed their views on doubt particularly toward what appear to be God's startling concessions.  Ellen White maintains, 'God has never removed the possibility of doubt.  Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration.  Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith.'  Frederick Buechner points out the dilemma we pose for God in demanding both certainty and personal freedom: 'Without somehow destroying me in the process, how could God reveal Himself in a way that would leave no room for doubt?  If there were no room for doubt, there would be no room for me.'  God would rather deal with rebels than robots.

Of course, in the matter of faith there is no convincing some people, 'Doubt becomes a way of life just as faith does,' Calvin Miller writes.  'Hardcore skeptics have often fallen in love with arguing as a lifestyle.  They don't want to be convinced by the practical nature of the Christian faith.  Argumentation is their greatest joy.  Becoming a Christian would eliminate the argument and their fun.'  And so the skeptic's challenge is set forth: 'Explain God!'  While to a large degree God is eminently logical and sensible, He cannon be reduced to a formula or encompassed by an explanation.  It is impossible for finite minds to fully comprehend infinity.  God is, as is the life He sustains, beyond probability.  An anecdote about Albert Einstein demonstrates why complexity, including a complex God, cannot always be simplified.

One day a pesky reporter asked Einstein to describe his theory of relativity in a few simple words.  He responded with the following story.  A man was asked by a blind man to describe the color white.  The man said, 'White is the color of a swan.'  The blind man said, 'What is a swan?'  The man said, 'A swan is a bird with a crooked neck."

The blind man asked, 'What is crooked?'  The man was becoming impatient.  He grabbed the blind man's are, straightened it out and said, 'This is straight.'  Then he bent is and said, 'And this is crooked.'

Whereupon the blind man quickly said, 'Yes, yes, thank you.  Now I know what white is.'" 

[blackdiamond]

Searching For A God To Love
By Chris Blake

"Why the Bible?

We don't have to look far to develop questions about the Bible's reliability.  Start reading Genesis, the first book.  'In the beginning God...' Stop!  What does it mean, beginning?  Who was there to report on this 'beginning'?  Moses?  Hardly.  How did he get the information?  What type of 'inspiration' was it?  Did God whisper the words to him?  And who is this God?  A mountain of questions arises in the first four words.

Even beyond these questions rise the questions of the Bible's whole purpose for existence.  My friend Wayne told me about camping with his two sons.  One warm, soggy night under a smudge of moon they traipsed along a path through a copse of pine.  Wayne shone the flashlight to illuminate the way, but within a minute his younger son asked if he could hold the flashlight.  When he received it, the boy pointed the light into his own eyes, 'so I could see better,' as he later explained, and presently wandered off the path and conked his head on a tree.

Psalms 119 says, 'Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.'  The light is designed to illuminate life's path.  Some aim the Bible into their own eyes, amassing knowledge and memorizing texts to no practical end.  Like the younger son, they crash into obstacles continually despite their 'enlightenment.'  When we aim the Bible at how we should live, we can better see the broad picture, and thereby miss the trees for the forest.

Ultimately, true enlightenment come not in learning about God but in encountering God.  God cannot be confined with the covers of a book.  Occasionally Christians are guilty of entombing God in the pages of the Bible.  Driving home one night, I heard a radio preacher announce, 'When we open the Bible, God opens His mouth.  When we close the Bible, God closes His mouth.'  God uses a million other means to communicate with us, including circumstances, friends, enemies, nature, literature, and our conscience.  On the other hand, I think I know what the preacher was suggesting.  There are many other splendid reasons for listening to the Bible as God's Word.

But what about those other holy books?  What makes on piece of writing holier than another?

[A short quiz is given that lists a quote from five different holy books that are all nearly identical.]

Some passages from holy books appear to be almost interchangeable.  What qualifies a text for inclusion in the Bible?  Martin Luther King, Jr's 'Letter from a Birmingham Jail' is as insightful and eloquent in describing our high duty to enter the fray against engulfing evil as and Bible letter Paul of Tarsus wrote from his prison.  But King's letter is not in the Christian canon.  Why not?

The Christian canon has aroused curiosity with the newfound interest in so-called 'lost' biblical texts, often referred to as 'the Gnostic Gospels.'  These texts Christians have known about for centuries, but the works were excluded from the canon on the basis of their lack of authenticity.  A bit of background may be useful here.

The thirty-nine books called the Old Testament were arranged even at the time of Jesus into twenty-four books with three divisions: the Law (Torah), the Prophets, and the Writing.  Later, the books were arranged according to the type of literature they contain: historical, poetical, and prophetic.  The twenty-seven books of the New Testament developed in a gradual process enacted by church councils.  Early Christians accepted only books written by an apostle or a companion of an apostle.  A work was judged on the basis of its harmony with the rest of Scripture, its inner consistency, and its adherence to general Christian experience.  When Diocletian (A.D. 303) decreed the burning of all Christian writing persecuted believers were forced to decide which books they were willing to risk their lives for.  Though wonderful, God-inspired writing have followed it, the Christian canon of the Bible is set aside for a particular purpose, 'for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.'"   

[blackdiamond]

Searching For A God To Love
By Chris Blake

The Bible is actually a sixty-six book library containing history, poetry, prayers, prophecies, letters, and memoirs.  In it we discover at least thirty-eight widely varying writing styles in three languages, displaying the individuality of the authors.  With the astounding diversity we find astounding continuity in its content and transmission.

All the books in the New Testament were written between A.D. 50 and A.D. 100, and comprise the best attested collection of ancient manuscripts in the world, with more manuscript evidence than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.  Next to the New Testament, the Iliad is the best preserved book, with 643 extant copies.  The New Testament has 24,633 manuscripts in existence today, including more than five thousand three hundred partial or complete Greek manuscripts.

The accuracy of the copyist of the Hebrew Bible is remarkable; scribes, lawyers, and massoretes preserved and transmitted the documents with practically perfect fidelity.  They kept tabs on every letter, syllable, and word - no document has been as faithfully rendered over as wide a span of time.  When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947, scholars were astounded at nearly identical New Testament texts separated by more than one thousand years.  William Shakespeare's text is much less certain, containing at least ten times as many disputed readings as are in the New Testament.

Though it's an ancient volume, the Bible transmits muscle and sinew to the life today.  Harvard psychiatrist and author Robert Coles declares, 'Nothing I have discovered about the makeup of human beings contradicts in any way what I learn from Hebrew prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos and from the book of Ecclesiastes, and from Jesus and the lives of the He touched.  Any thing that I can say as a result of my research into human behavior is a mere footnote to those lives in the Old and New Testaments.'

...

The Old Testament, composed between about 1500 B.C. and 400 B.C., contains more than three hundred references to the coming of the Messiah.  All of the references were made at least four centuries before He appeared.  Jesus fulfilled every prediction, from the place and time of His birth to the fine points of His eloquent sacrifice.  The odds of this happening are beyond calculation."

[chim]

Like I said before.. . go straight to God and the Holy Spirit, he has this power. Forget all our opinions and go straight to the source of power. Dont let anyone tell you that one church or organization is the one you should be in. We with our human nature find it necessary to teach with our knowledge and opinions and we tend to make things more difficult than they should be...  The Bible says there is simplicity in Christ. Just say an honest prayer... God is faithful if you are sincere. Matter of fact God is faithful regardless.

[germ]

Chim, I whole heartedly agree with you about preceding your study with prayer. I usually say a little something asking God to guide me to what I need to be taught, and to open my heart to his wisdom.

I think that I was more specifically trying to address the fact that the individual details of the Bible can be overwhelming, and can easily be discounted if you look at them seaparated from the big picture. Rather, try to look at the big message contained in the Bible. For someone like Ebbs15, who from what I can tell is very interested in learning, but is stumbling with the details, I thought this may help him smooth over the rough spots. As I recall, he questioned why he should even pray in the first place, so I figured adding this would be useless.

Praying is a very important component, and I would strongly encourage anyone who is trying to learn about God or the Bible to ask for guidance and understanding by praying first.

Erik

[chim]

The point I was trying to make to Ebbs15 was that people read the Bible all the time with no understanding of whats in there and don't get the true message.. that even if he doesn't believe in praying.. then he needs to do whatever he wants to call it, by asking God to somehow intervein and help him.. there is really no way around it. Only God can open our eyes and ears...  I just don't want him getting more confused by people telling him to read this and that, when its all much more simple than that.

[blackdiamond]

The point I was trying to make to Ebbs15 was that people read the Bible all the time with no understanding of whats in there and don't get the true message.. that even if he doesn't believe in praying.. then he needs to do whatever he wants to call it, by asking God to somehow intervein and help him.. there is really no way around it. Only God can open our eyes and ears...  I just don't want him getting more confused by people telling him to read this and that, when its all much more simple than that.

I agree with you, but at the same time, people like Ebbs15 need a reason to pray or have any belief in God.

If I told you that I had a childhood imaginary friend that had helped me out, and you just needed to ask them for help, would you consider doing it without any evidence?

I think it is nearly impossible for people that have always had some belief in God or the Bible to really understand the perspective of an Atheist or Agnostic; we are always quick to make assumptions, but we really don't know what specific thing will spark the interest or plant the seed of faith.

The fact that this board is proposing multiple ideas for him is good because it increases the chances of him being interested in one of the methods and going forward.

[chim]

I agree... but..  always a but...

1. I think most people are smart enough to know the difference between say a universal God and an imaginary friend....

2. Ebbs15 seems to respond to short simple explinations.. which is understandable... keep the attention..  dont go overboard..  most things we talk about can be simply discussed without half the dialogue...   I have always kept my answers short and simple..  because the gospel is simple..  so simple even a child could understand it. More info doesnt mean we are right..

[blackdiamond]

I agree... but..  always a but...

1. I think most people are smart enough to know the difference between say a universal God and an imaginary friend....

2. Ebbs15 seems to respond to short simple explinations.. which is understandable... keep the attention..  dont go overboard..  most things we talk about can be simply discussed without half the dialogue...   I have always kept my answers short and simple..  because the gospel is simple..  so simple even a child could understand it. More info doesnt mean we are right..

The gospel is simple enough for a child to understand, but we are all to grow and mature in Christ.  The amount of information contained in the Bible is amazing, no matter how much I study it, I have never felt that I understood everything that was there, no matter how simple it seemed the first time I read it.

If we all only discussed the gospel and its most simple level, nobody would ever grow in their understanding of the Bible and/or God.

I think that Ebbs15 can handle the depth of discussion that I have seen so far.  If he was trying to convince me that their wasn't a God I would like to hear everything he had to say.

Just my 

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

and you want to know whats cool about praying is you dont have to be holier than tho all you have to do is talk to him like a good friend (with out the cuss words)Its easy to see his works when I go outside at nite and fell I can almost touch the stars.That is when we can talk as I walk.

[germ]

Good point WIHAT, Praying does not have to be some formal type thing. It can be as simple as "Hey Lord, could you be with me as I go thru this? Thanks"

Nothing magic about it. Glad you brought that up, 'cause I think alot of people get stuck on OMG, I don't know HOW to pray.

Erik

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

It amazing how GOOD you feel after you get done talking to the Lord

[kiyul4130]

i found jesus at the bottom of a wiskey bottle

[chim]

i found jesus at the bottom of a wiskey bottle

Cool! What now?

[Ebbs15]

hey sorry ya'll I've been a little under the weather... but I'll read your responces and reply when I feel a little better...

[blackdiamond]

I also posted this on the Prayer Request thread:

Here is an amazing answer to prayer!

A friend of mine was lifting weights this week and heard/felt a "pop" in the back of his head that caused a warm feeling an a terrible pain.  He immediately went to the local hospital and was admitted with a diagnosis of a possible stroke or aneurysm.  After about 24 hours he was sent via ambulance (a helicopter was considered to provide prospective of the seriousness) to the big city, when he arrived in Seattle, the doctors couldn't find any sign of bleeding or that anything was wrong.  They sent him home with aspirin and told him to work on his high blood pressure.   Prayer is an amazing thing!

[blackdiamond]

Book Report:

(1) My wife suggested that I read the book Basic Christianity by John R.W. Stott when we were discussing the dialogue on this thread.  The first part of the book deals with fact of Christ (truth or fiction?).  I have read the first few chapters, and while it is excellent reading I'm not sure the evidence presented is enough to convince me alone.

(2) I also read the book The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel that was recommended earlier in the discussion.  It is a simple read with excellent content.  The material presented was awesome and it only took me, a slow reader, a couple of hours to read. It contained some of the same information that I saw in Basic Christianity and also Searching For A God To Love by Chris Blake.

Ebbs15 - if you will PM your address, I will drop The Case For Christ in the mail (it shouldn't cost more than a few dollars via US Mail) next week.  I think that it would be a good place for you to start your search as previously suggested.

[NO4X]

I will drop The Case For Christ in the mail (it shouldn't cost more than a few dollars via US Mail) next week. I think that it would be a good place for you to start your search as previously suggested.

My wife has highly recommended this book to me.  Maybe I should take her advice.

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

I havent read either one of those books but they sound great.

[Ebbs15]

Book Report:

(1) My wife suggested that I read the book Basic Christianity by John R.W. Stott when we were discussing the dialogue on this thread. The first part of the book deals with fact of Christ (truth or fiction?). I have read the first few chapters, and while it is excellent reading I'm not sure the evidence presented is enough to convince me alone.

(2) I also read the book The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel that was recommended earlier in the discussion. It is a simple read with excellent content. The material presented was awesome and it only took me, a slow reader, a couple of hours to read. It contained some of the same information that I saw in Basic Christianity and also Searching For A God To Love by Chris Blake.

Ebbs15 - if you will PM your address, I will drop The Case For Christ in the mail (it shouldn't cost more than a few dollars via US Mail) next week. I think that it would be a good place for you to start your search as previously suggested.

you have a pm

[germ]

This may be a bit off-topic, but it is kind of a seguay into Daniel and Revalations (I guess)

Can't remember exactly where it is, but the Bible tells us that in the end times, God will let go of his control of the 4 corners of the earth, and the winds will begin to destroy the earth. (PMV=Poor memory version).

Is it me, or does it seem as though we're having busy time in the "natural disaster" department? Tsunami, 24 named hurricanes this year, Tornadoes in Kansas, Eathquakes in Jappan and Pakistan (38 thousand people dead!?!). Just seems to me that it is more than a coincidence.

I wonder how close we are to the end times. I've heard some say 2012 and others say 2007. Not sure I believe either, but what are your thoughts?

Erik