What do you think of Christ?

[Ebbs15]

Ebbs15 - When the term cult is used, it is referred to any non-Christian organization straying from orthodox Christian beliefs. This is what is commonly accepted and how it is commonly used. Accept obviously when a cultist uses it to try to defend their position. Sure it doesn't sound that great.. by why should it be sugar coated?

because... two reasons.... respect for others beliefs... and you can't PROVE that they are wrong...

[NO4X]

because... two reasons.... respect for others beliefs... and you can't PROVE that they are wrong...

Mormonism proves itself wrong. 

As far as respect for other peoples beliefs, I haven't seen any disrespect on this thread.  Just because someone doesn't believe in the bible, doesn't make the bible wrong.  It's the hardness of man's heart that keeps them from believing.  God wants everyone to believe and be saved.  He loves every person regardless of age, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc.  He offers the ultimate in equal opportunity.

[chim]

Respect for others is telling them the truth.. in love. Its not sitting back and letting them head towards distruction. As far as proving wrong..  I believe you can PROVE all things by the Word of God. I was once told I was part of a cult as a Mormon.. it really upset me..  but having had my eyes opened from spiritual darkness I can see that I was part of a "Cult"

[Ebbs15]

Respect for others is telling them the truth.. in love. Its not sitting back and letting them head towards distruction. As far as proving wrong.. I believe you can PROVE all things by the Word of God. I was once told I was part of a cult as a Mormon.. it really upset me.. but having had my eyes opened from spiritual darkness I can see that I was part of a "Cult"

ok this is getting no where... the fact is you can't PROVE ANYTHING by the word of god... PROOF relies on FACT not BELIEFS right or wrong... yes you may be 110% sure that the bible is the word of God... but in the end it's a BELIEF not a fact... as you have no proof... now I know that you'll come back with quotes from the bible itself but as much as it may support your side in this it's still not PROOF...  in the end that's why I'm Atheist... I believe there is no possible way to prove there IS nor ISN'T a god... and will not make an ill informed decision on something considered so important by so many... 

[blackdiamond]

ok this is getting no where... the fact is you can't PROVE ANYTHING by the word of god... PROOF relies on FACT not BELIEFS right or wrong... yes you may be 110% sure that the bible is the word of God... but in the end it's a BELIEF not a fact... as you have no proof... now I know that you'll come back with quotes from the bible itself but as much as it may support your side in this it's still not PROOF...  in the end that's why I'm Atheist... I believe there is no possible way to prove there IS nor ISN'T a god... and will not make an ill informed decision on something considered so important by so many... 

I tend to agree with you on several of your points:

(1) There is no way to 100% prove that the Bible is truth, however, there is very strong evidence (both historical and scientific); this is where faith comes in.

(2) The word "cult" is over used in religious discussions.  When I think of a cult, I think of groups like the followers of David Koresh - very small groups that everyone commonly agrees are really messed up.  I think that Chim is partially correct, but I think that the term "cult" is usually used, in discussions, to describe any religious group that has significantly different beliefs from mine.  In reality, Christianity as a whole is described as a "cult" by many non-believers.

(3) There is no reason to make an uninformed decision, you might try reading some C.S. Lewis books, he was an atheist and is now a Christian.  I also have a book (Trip into the Supernatural) on order that you might be interested in reading (there is some information on it available online as well), it is a biography about a guy that went deep into Devil worship and is now a Christian again.  The bottom line is that you should find out for yourself rather than assuming that there isn't any viable evidence.

[NO4X]

ok this is getting no where... the fact is you can't PROVE ANYTHING by the word of god... PROOF relies on FACT not BELIEFS right or wrong... yes you may be 110% sure that the bible is the word of God... but in the end it's a BELIEF not a fact... as you have no proof... now I know that you'll come back with quotes from the bible itself but as much as it may support your side in this it's still not PROOF... in the end that's why I'm Atheist... I believe there is no possible way to prove there IS nor ISN'T a god... and will not make an ill informed decision on something considered so important by so many...

Oh, yes...the argument bred from our collegiate counter culture that has become main stream.  You can prove everything from the bible.  The bible is fact.  When you apply the same scientific method, that is universally accepted throughout the science community, to the bible, the same way you would apply it to any other scientific "theory", the bible is complete fact.  And you don't have to ever revise your hypothiesis.

[Ebbs15]

The bottom line is that you should find out for yourself rather than assuming that there isn't any viable evidence.

I'm not assuming... from every thing that I have been told, read, and seen there was nothing that provided me with proof in my eyes... there may be some scientific or historical proof that supports the bible, however I have not seen nor heard of it... I have however seen or was told about science proving it wrong... so yes I have more research ahead of me... but I doubt that I will find anything that will "save me" 

and yes your understanding of the word Cult is the same as mine... there may be help for you yet... (KIDDING!) lol



B

[blackdiamond]

I'm not assuming... from every thing that I have been told, read, and seen there was nothing that provided me with proof in my eyes... there may be some scientific or historical proof that supports the bible, however I have not seen nor heard of it... I have however seen or was told about science proving it wrong... so yes I have more research ahead of me... but I doubt that I will find anything that will "save me" 

and yes your understanding of the word Cult is the same as mine... there may be help for you yet... (KIDDING!) lol



B

The scientific proof or dis-proof for creation and a God should probably be its own thread, but both sides have significat "holes" that require faith.  Maybe at some point we will want to discuss some of these things in detail on the board.

[Ebbs15]

The scientific proof or dis-proof for creation and a God should probably be its own thread, but both sides have significat "holes" that require faith. Maybe at some point we will want to discuss some of these things in detail on the board.

very true...  till then 

[S-10 Stewy]

Wow guys .... awesome stuff here!!!!  I had no idea I would ever see a thread like this on a 4wd forum!   COOL!!!!

To Ebbs15:  I understand where your coming from, its cool.  I myself was probably not far from your beliefs some time ago.  I am not sure if you doing any Reading out side of 4 wheeling stuff but if you do... at all... Lee Stroble is a well know Journalist in certain parts of the world.  He was a proclaimed atheist ... HARDCORE!  He got so fed up with Christians talking aboutJesus Christ and God that he went on a mission to prove they were all wrong. This was some years ago and after he did it all he wrote a book about his findings (research).  The title:  The Case for Christ.  The book is not a "belief" as you call it but is based on strong facts with evidence to back it up. 

Just a thought... it is good stuff.

Stewy

[blackdiamond]

Wow guys .... awesome stuff here!!!!  I had no idea I would ever see a thread like this on a 4wd forum!   COOL!!!!

To Ebbs15:  I understand where your coming from, its cool.  I myself was probably not far from your beliefs some time ago.  I am not sure if you doing any Reading out side of 4 wheeling stuff but if you do... at all... Lee Stroble is a well know Journalist in certain parts of the world.  He was a proclaimed atheist ... HARDCORE!  He got so fed up with Christians talking aboutJesus Christ and God that he went on a mission to prove they were all wrong. This was some years ago and after he did it all he wrote a book about his findings (research).  The title:  The Case for Christ.  The book is not a "belief" as you call it but is based on strong facts with evidence to back it up. 

Just a thought... it is good stuff.

Stewy

I just ordered myself a copy of the book, I always enjoy learning new things.  More knowledge to add to this discussion.

[Ebbs15]

I just ordered myself a copy of the book, I always enjoy learning new things. More knowledge to add to this discussion.

Wow guys .... awesome stuff here!!!!  I had no idea I would ever see a thread like this on a 4wd forum!   COOL!!!!

To Ebbs15:  I understand where your coming from, its cool.  I myself was probably not far from your beliefs some time ago.  I am not sure if you doing any Reading out side of 4 wheeling stuff but if you do... at all... Lee Stroble is a well know Journalist in certain parts of the world.  He was a proclaimed atheist ... HARDCORE!  He got so fed up with Christians talking aboutJesus Christ and God that he went on a mission to prove they were all wrong. This was some years ago and after he did it all he wrote a book about his findings (research).  The title:  The Case for Christ.  The book is not a "belief" as you call it but is based on strong facts with evidence to back it up. 

Just a thought... it is good stuff.

Stewy

I'll take a look arround for it... I've got a few books to track down that black diamond sudgested also... 

though to be honest I seriously doubt a book will change my view on this,  who knows though... I may just get fed up with all ya'll and start my own mission to prove ya'll wrong and end up proving ya right 

Seriously though... I will take a look for these books.

[Ebbs15]

Oh, yes...the argument bred from our collegiate counter culture that has become main stream. You can prove everything from the bible. The bible is fact. When you apply the same scientific method, that is universally accepted throughout the science community, to the bible, the same way you would apply it to any other scientific "theory", the bible is complete fact. And you don't have to ever revise your hypothiesis.

sorry I didn't reply to this earlier, I didn't see it untill just now...

how can you say the bible is fact?  prove that it's fact?  YOU CAN'T... you BELIEVE it is... you have FAITH that it is... but you can't PROVE anything...  I'm not saying the bible is wrong... or that it's right... I'm just saying that I can't base my faith off of it... 

Mormonism proves itself wrong. 

As far as respect for other peoples beliefs, I haven't seen any disrespect on this thread.  Just because someone doesn't believe in the bible, doesn't make the bible wrong.  It's the hardness of man's heart that keeps them from believing.  God wants everyone to believe and be saved.  He loves every person regardless of age, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc.  He offers the ultimate in equal opportunity.

your BELIEF is that the Mormons are wrong... but you have no proof other than the book that you BELIEVE is correct... All I'm trying to say is that you can't prove something true by saying... "well the bible says it's true so it is..."   that's like a when I was in 2nd grade calling people names..." your stupid.... cause... YOU ARE!"  the arguement just doesn't hold water...

I agree i haven't seen anything offensive... though I dissagree with your use of the word cult... but i chalk that up to diffrent up bringings...

I hope you get where I'm comming from...

[Brandon]

Why dont you ??Some of my mormon freinds and I get into some great debates (not yelling)but they want to covert me to there way and I want to save them.Its  a battle but after going to church with me one of them gave there life to christ and was transformed into someone special in my view point.

why? I have family, friends, what more do I need? I don't have enough time in the day as it is - god, christ, jeebus, whatever doesn't cross my mind. Not that I don't believe or that I am against or that..

I simply "don't think of christ"

[chim]

I can prove Mormons wrong simply by what they teach with their own materials.. and literature.. I wouldnt even need the Bible This can be done with most "Cults".

[Brandon]

anybody who does anything "because of someone else or because of a majority" is in acting in a cult manner. There is no way I could find the time (nor do I care to make the time) to study all religions to decide which fits me best. Buddhism is interesting but not interesting enough for me to waste my time studying it.

[chim]

I wouldnt waste the time doing that either.. what I would do is pray to the One True God of the universe and ask him in all sincerity to reveal himself to you... He is faithful to do this. This way your not choosing a religion or wasting your time with the study of several religions... just a thought

[*FFC*]

anybody who does anything "because of someone else or because of a majority" is in acting in a cult manner. There is no way I could find the time (nor do I care to make the time) to study all religions to decide which fits me best.

That is partly the reason why this thread is here, so that everyone can state their beliefs, however different they may be, and we can discuss and analyze them

[Brandon]

I wouldnt waste the time doing that either.. what I would do is pray to the One True God of the universe and ask him in all sincerity to reveal himself to you... He is faithful to do this. This way your not choosing a religion or wasting your time with the study of several religions... just a thought

one true god eh? Why would I do that? Why do I "need" god?

I base my right and wrong off of how my actions affect others and personal experience, I don't need anyone to tell me what is right or wrong - so tell me why I would "pray" ?

I don't pretend to know how we got here or where we are going but I see no purpose in praying, period.

[Ebbs15]

one true god eh? Why would I do that? Why do I "need" god?

I base my right and wrong off of how my actions affect others and personal experience, I don't need anyone to tell me what is right or wrong - so tell me why I would "pray" ?

I don't pretend to know how we got here or where we are going but I see no purpose in praying, period.

I agree... though I have looked into religon A LITTLE but am always left doubting it... as for pryaing to have him reveal himself... doesn't that require you to have FAITH?  and the lack of which is why you were praying for him to reveal himself in the first place...

but I totally agree with what Brandon is saying... and it's not becase My name is Brandon too 

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

Ok I'm not trying to change your position but can you answer one question for me?If you die right now
1.do you become worm bait?
2.become a cow or a skunk or a snake of some other creature?
3.go to heaven and have to answer for all your decisions and actions.

[Ebbs15]

Ok I'm not trying to change your position but can you answer one question for me?If you die right now
1.do you become worm bait?
2.become a cow or a skunk or a snake of some other creature?
3.go to heaven and have to answer for all your decisions and actions.

4 none of the above... I'm gonna be cryogenicly frozen to be revived 150 years in the future and date your great grand daughter!


kidding... seriously though... I think that when you die... that's it... period... nothing more... the rest... to me... is just a farytale ment to ease our minds about that day... IMHO

though I think we're getting away from the topic of this thread... it was about Christ... and I think I pulled it else ware...   so lets send it back there...  I think he was probably a "great man" (the quotes are because it's up to people interpretation of great) that people followed... I don't doubt that he said he was the masiah (sp?) and died claiming so... but did he rise again?  turn water into wine?  walk on water?  or was the son of God?  NO... not IMHO.

[blackdiamond]

Ok I'm not trying to change your position but can you answer one question for me?If you die right now
1.do you become worm bait?
2.become a cow or a skunk or a snake of some other creature?
3.go to heaven and have to answer for all your decisions and actions.

At the risk of sparking the same debate once again, it is: 4. 1 followed by 3.

[blackdiamond]

4 none of the above... I'm gonna be cryogenicly frozen to be revived 150 years in the future and date your great grand daughter!


kidding... seriously though... I think that when you die... that's it... period... nothing more... the rest... to me... is just a farytale ment to ease our minds about that day... IMHO

though I think we're getting away from the topic of this thread... it was about Christ... and I think I pulled it else ware...   so lets send it back there...  I think he was probably a "great man" (the quotes are because it's up to people interpretation of great) that people followed... I don't doubt that he said he was the masiah (sp?) and died claiming so... but did he rise again?  turn water into wine?  walk on water?  or was the son of God?  NO... not IMHO.

Ebbs15 - If you have been following along, this thread isn't the first one on the board that discusses religion, I requested that we consolidate to one single thread to keep the discussions more focused and make it easier to stay involved.  Having said that, I think that any religion/god discussion is fair game.

In my opinion, Christians often take the time to defend their beliefs among themselves, but are not always willing or prepared to discuss with people that don't believe in God or the Bible.  I have said before that I struggle more with the existence of God than I do my specific Biblical beliefs so I am very interested to discuss "god" issues with you because it will force me to study and learn for myself.  That is why I purchased a copy of the book that was recommened to you.

Now for some questions:

(1) Do you believe in any supernatural powers (i.e god, devil, the man upstairs, something unknown, etc...) at all?

(2) What do you think of Creation vs. Evolution?

(3) Have you ever wondered where people like David Copperfield get their "power"?  Is his ability to levitate merely a trick or does he have some supernatural help?

This reminds me of when I saw him on TV and while performing on the street he ran across Deon Sanders.  Deon took off running and didn't stop for blocks saying that something was messed up.

[Ebbs15]

Ebbs15 - If you have been following along, this thread isn't the first one on the board that discusses religion, I requested that we consolidate to one single thread to keep the discussions more focused and make it easier to stay involved. Having said that, I think that any religion/god discussion is fair game.

In my opinion, Christians often take the time to defend their beliefs among themselves, but are not always willing or prepared to discuss with people that don't believe in God or the Bible. I have said before that I struggle more with the existence of God than I do my specific Biblical beliefs so I am very interested to discuss "god" issues with you because it will force me to study and learn for myself. That is why I purchased a copy of the book that was recommened to you.

Now for some questions:

(1) Do you believe in any supernatural powers (i.e god, devil, the man upstairs, something unknown, etc...) at all?

(2) What do you think of Creation vs. Evolution?

(3) Have you ever wondered where people like David Copperfield get their "power"? Is his ability to levitate merely a trick or does he have some supernatural help?

This reminds me of when I saw him on TV and while performing on the street he ran across Deon Sanders. Deon took off running and didn't stop for blocks saying that something was messed up.

yeah I've been following along though I must have missed that one... 

yes I agree very much with your statement about disscussing with people who do not believe... I think it's because we challange your thought... though to be honest I've seen the opposite true too... people can be closed minded on both sides of the fence... PERSONALLY I just love learning and talking to people.... I don't pretend to have any knolege outside of what I have seen, experienced, or read.  but for something you SAY to change my mind... well it'd be a first... but I'm not gonna close the door... cause it only takes once...

supernatural powers?  as in something unknown?  yes... there is ALOT that man doesn't know... but as for the "man up stairs", God, Devil... even Karma... not really... though I have found myself using the Karma excuse to explain something that has happened to me... though when I sit back and think about it... I don't REALLY believe that... and I only use it when something negitive or unwanted happens... so to me it's just a soothing mechanism... 

creation vs. evolution?  the evo is one fast ass car!... lol... sorry just writing what's comming to mind...
seriously though... I believe in evolution... though that we came from the MONKEY I find hard to believe... just because then why are monkeys still arround?   

as for David Copperfields I believe he is a great ILLUSIONIST... nothing more...  David Blane is one that is more convincing in my mind... but I still believe he has no special powers other than an insainly "quick hand"...

and you were thinking of David Blain with Deon Sanders... unless Deon ran into David Copperfield ALSO... lol...

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

I can only talk about myself but the doctors found cancer in my mother-in -law and wanted to to surgery the next week.After my church and a bunch of my relitives churches prayed for her she went back in and they couldnt find nothing.I am not just talking about 1 doctor but 4 doctors and they coulnt explained it.So when my wife and I went with my mother in law to see the doctors we just laught.they looked at us and we told them they didnt have a chance.For me and my house we will serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Ebbs15]

I can only talk about myself but the doctors found cancer in my mother-in -law and wanted to to surgery the next week.After my church and a bunch of my relitives churches prayed for her she went back in and they couldnt find nothing.I am not just talking about 1 doctor but 4 doctors and they coulnt explained it.So when my wife and I went with my mother in law to see the doctors we just laught.they looked at us and we told them they didnt have a chance.For me and my house we will serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

And that's cool!... I have no problem with or think less of people who have diffrent beliefs than I... 

on a side note I'm not sure how long ago this happened... but congrats... I know what it's like to loose a family member to cancer... I've lost 5... and my dog... never an easy time...  I'm glad it was avoided in your case 

[blackdiamond]

yeah I've been following along though I must have missed that one... 

yes I agree very much with your statement about disscussing with people who do not believe... I think it's because we challange your thought... though to be honest I've seen the opposite true too... people can be closed minded on both sides of the fence... PERSONALLY I just love learning and talking to people.... I don't pretend to have any knolege outside of what I have seen, experienced, or read.  but for something you SAY to change my mind... well it'd be a first... but I'm not gonna close the door... cause it only takes once...

supernatural powers?  as in something unknown?  yes... there is ALOT that man doesn't know... but as for the "man up stairs", God, Devil... even Karma... not really... though I have found myself using the Karma excuse to explain something that has happened to me... though when I sit back and think about it... I don't REALLY believe that... and I only use it when something negitive or unwanted happens... so to me it's just a soothing mechanism... 

creation vs. evolution?  the evo is one fast ass car!... lol... sorry just writing what's comming to mind...
seriously though... I believe in evolution... though that we came from the MONKEY I find hard to believe... just because then why are monkeys still arround?   

as for David Copperfields I believe he is a great ILLUSIONIST... nothing more...  David Blane is one that is more convincing in my mind... but I still believe he has no special powers other than an insainly "quick hand"...

and you were thinking of David Blain with Deon Sanders... unless Deon ran into David Copperfield ALSO... lol...

You are correct about David Blain, my poor memory failed me once again.  I would agree with David Copperfield, but l am convinced that Blain has some added help.

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

all this happen just this last summer.I hope you dont mind but my mens bible study will pray for you

[Ebbs15]

all this happen just this last summer.I hope you dont mind but my mens bible study will pray for you

I don't mind... it's all good...