What do you think of Christ?

[blackdiamond]

Good Matt,

I agree with you.. although its hard to grasp..  I believe his word.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this text point us to nature (His Creation) to learn about God?  It says that things can be understood by what God made, even his eternal power.

[supermat]

No Correction there... it says that people are without excuse because you can discern some essential things about God from his creation. I think I missed the point you were making bd, can you re-explain?

Also, Minisimp.... be it fiction or not it is THE best selling book of all time.

[gonzo]

The one thing I want to know is, is he a Republican or a democrat?

Liberal ?

[blackdiamond]

No Correction there... it says that people are without excuse because you can discern some essential things about God from his creation. I think I missed the point you were making bd, can you re-explain?

Also, Minisimp.... be it fiction or not it is THE best selling book of all time.

I was following up a previous post that I mentioned learning about God or our future based upon the laws of nature.  I referred to nature as the 2nd book, that is an SDA term so  I am trying to keep my arguments 100% Bible based.  I was happy that Chim posted the text that seemed to support that nature is indeed a place to learn about God.  See the post below:

********
From bd - Do God's laws ever change?  No.  Does this included the physical laws of nature?  Yes.  What happens carbon based things that are placed into a fire?  They burn up.  If Nature is God's 2nd book, why would He teach things in the Bible that are contrary to nature?  There are only two examples in the Bible of things surviving in a fire, the burning bush and the three Hebrews, both were a direct result of God, He was even seen in the fire with the three Hebrews.  The logical conclusion is that for us to survive a fire God would have to give us the strength, and if it was an eternal fire then He would have to give us eternal life...hmmm.


From Chim - You are assuming that the laws of nature have to continue into eternity? Thats a horrible mistake...  Nature says I cant just receive a new body, nature says I cant live forever, nature says I need nourishment to live, nature says I have pain, nature says this and that.. etc.. . Thats a horrible point! Where is Nature Gods 2nd book?? I think you are making a huge assumption here! If laws of nature are strong in postion in your eternity, I wouldnt want to go there! You say "Both were a direct result of God", wow! isnt that what eternity is going to be .. a direct result of God and his power!!! The logical conclusion is that for us to survive a fire God would have to give us the strength, and if it was an eternal fire then He would have to give us eternal life...hmmm. I agree! We can have eternal life with him.. or spend eternity in punishment! The sould continues... if the non-believers just vanish.. whats the big deal in that.. they would never be conscious to know what they are missing out on..  then Christ wouldnt have to teach so much and warn us about hell, he could just say, believe and life eternally with me, or dont and cease to exist! That sounds retarded..  and he didnt teach that. Logically think that through!

[blackdiamond]

Just to piss in everyone's cheerios, I beleive Jesus is a character in one of the best selling fiction books of all time.

Funny you should mention piss and cheerios, have you ever noticed that cheerios and milk smell like piss?  I have always thought that, but not many people agree.

Back to the top...

[blackdiamond]

I tried to cover several things with this post...

"God even states that we are much more higher than the animals... The gift of God IS eternal life..IF.. we choose to accept it! That is, the free gift of eternal life with him. I believe that God is in control of all things.. even your punishment! It will be by his power that souls are sustained for eternity in punishment. We all need God whether we want to admit it or not! He holds the cosmos together with his power, and I'm sure he can sustain us in whatever state we are in."

Let's go back to the text that nearly everyone on planet earth can quote.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." – John 3:16

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins because He LOVES us and ONLY those who believe in Him have eternal life.  The only logical conclusion is that unbelievers (people that have chosen not to believe) do NOT have eternal life.

***********

"Dont stop reading at verse 10!!! Keep going to the end of the chapter... you are stopping at the Devil..  but it goes on to say what happens to non-believers"

So what happened in the verse prior to 10?  Who or what gets devoured?

"They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city of God.  And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." – Revelation 20:9

Have you noticed that there is a paragraph break between 10 and 11 which often means a break in thought or a transition?

***********

"if the non-believers just vanish.. whats the big deal in that.. they would never be conscious to know what they are missing out on..  then Christ wouldnt have to teach so much and warn us about hell, he could just say, believe and life eternally with me, or dont and cease to exist! That sounds retarded..  and he didnt teach that."

Jesus came to this earth because He LOVES us.  Basically you are saying that the reason that you believe in Christ is because you don't want to die (burn in hell forever), this boils down to a relationship based on fear.  God wants us to love Him and the reason for wanting to go to heaven is because we can't imagine eternal separation from Him.  God is love.

Personally I believe that we are required to keep all ten commandments as given to Moses in the old testament, but I suspect that you believe that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross and the new law is (1) Love God, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  Is it really possible to genuinely love someone if your underlying motivation is fear?  I can't imagine loving someone that was threatening to torture me for all eternity if I didn't believe in them.

Maybe a better word would be SIMPLE rather than RETARDED, is it too easy for you to believe?  Are gifts difficult to get?

***********

Now for the Rich Man in Hell

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.  But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table.  Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.  So it was that the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.  The rich man also died and was buried.  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame,' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.  And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'  Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them lest they also come to this place of torment.'  Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'  And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'  But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"  Luke 16:19-31

Notice that this story follows the parable of the Mustard Seed (Luke 13), the Great Supper & Salt with no Savor (Luke 14), the Lost Sheep & Piece of Silver & Prodigal Son (Luke 15) and the Unjust Steward (Luke 16).

It cannot be a literal description of the condition of humanity after death for several obvious reasons:
(1)   Abraham's bosom is a figurative term, not literal.
(2)   One drop of water can't cool a fire.
(3)   Heaven and Hell are not close enough to talk.

The Bible teaches that sinners are not punished until the Day of Judgement.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." – 2 Peter 2:9

Righteous are not rewarded until the Resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation." – John 5:28-29 (1st & 2nd resurrections)

Also see John 6:39-40, John 14:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, 1 Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

The dead are not conscious.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is not help.  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that day his thoughts perish." – Psalms 146:3-4

Note that the thought cease.

In this parable Jesus taught that no man was valued for his possessions.  In this life we settle our eternal destiny.  After death a great gulf is fixed.  "They have Moses and the prophets."  This shows that the writings of the Old Testament are important to us.

[*FFC*]

Hey FFC,
I must disagree with you... It is my firm belief that everyone is held accountable, PERIOD. There is a term called, "natural Inspiration" and the basic concept is that anyone can stand in nature whether it be in Livermore or Africa or on the Rubicon and say, " I couldn't create this, you couldn't create this, a higher power must have." The concept that anyone is capable of that mental connection is what makes you accountable. You know its bigger than you, its your responsibility to find out what IT is and the responsibiliity of believers to seek you out and show you. I believe my God is just and at times merciful but I have no ground to stand on if I think I can dictate what is "right" or "Just" for Him. Using a term like that is trying to pin an almighty spiritual being into a human shell and saying that he can't step aside from that, or that he must follow the same guidelines as us.
I submitted to God not out of fear, though he should be feared, but instead out of respect for an almighty being who was crazy enough to let his son die for pathetic-lazy me. If He was willing to go that far for me, I have no right, no moral grounds, and no reason, to do anything other than drop to my knee and dedicate my life to whatever it is he asks. In ancient times when a man saved your life you were his servant, this was a matter of respect and a symbol of your gratitude for a debt you could not repay. God did not save my life metaphorically, he literally saved me and out of respect for that I am a literal servant by choice. I can never repay the debt but I can honor, obey, and follow as a symbolic thanks for the gift of life I recieved.

Hope all of that makes sense!

Matt

I'm not sure I understand you.  I understand that the Bible states that we are to look to nature, but what about the people who don't know to look to nature? I know they believe in a higher being, be it God, Buddha, a cow or a pig: it is what they believe wholeheartedly is the right "god".  That is why we are here, to teach them about the God we believe in. 

Does that make any more sense or did I just repeat myself? 

[blackdiamond]

I'm not sure I understand you.  I understand that the Bible states that we are to look to nature, but what about the people who don't know to look to nature? I know they believe in a higher being, be it God, Buddha, a cow or a pig: it is what they believe wholeheartedly is the right "god".  That is why we are here, to teach them about the God we believe in. 

Does that make any more sense or did I just repeat myself? 

I think the bottom line is that we are all judged by our characters.  The Bible also says that the gospel will go to all the world, so maybe everyone will have the chance to know the truth?

[*FFC*]

I think the bottom line is that we are all judged by our characters.  The Bible also says that the gospel will go to all the world, so maybe everyone will have the chance to know the truth?

That about sums it up

[blackdiamond]

Nah, not trying to put anyone on a "hit" list, and I apologize if it came off as such, just spent a lifetime in the "church" and I'm as about well-educated on Christianity as one can get I guess.  Seminary educated at one of the finest in the nation, grew up a PK, worked in and around the church all my life and I was a successful pastor for ten years.  I've seen the other side of the fence and lived in the glass house.  I much prefer my secular job and private life now.  I know Greek, Hebrew and Latin so I've read a great deal of the copies of the so-called original mauscripts and even have a Greek-Interlinear Bible I am particularly fond of and use frequently to "haunt" my current pastor...Greek w/ the English equivalent on top and then the NRSV passage on the side of the page.  Keeps it interesting.

What I find so enthralling is how mainstream America swallows so much out of the Bible that is just plain out wrong or not even in there...here is one such example.

The verse states that "the love of money is THE root of all evil" etc.  Many translations say this, some get it right.

The actual Greek translation is minus the part of speech the would indicate the word "THE" before "root", thus the verse in its original form in the Greek actually reads...

"the love of money is A root of all evil"  see the big difference?

Might I ask was religion your were a pastor in and why you left?  What is your take on death, hell the 10 commandments?

[*FFC*]

I'm not sure how on topic this is but with people talkin bout church experience and stuff I feel I should share.  

I believe that a person should not judge our Saviour by their experiences in church.  I know it is hard, because that is where we go to worship, but let me share our story.  

When I was between the ages of 5 and 15, we went to the same church.  For 10 years we were there.  Faithful, every sabbath we were at church, my mom and I taught the Cradle Roll and Kindergarten classes, and our whole family went.  EVERY WEEK.  

When my dad went to prison for molesting my little sister (adoptive), the church excommunicated my mother for divorcing him.  They told her that if she had been upholding her wifely duties her husband wouldn't have had to turn to their daughter  .  She lost her little girl, her husband, and her sanity.  She tried to turn to the church for help and they slammed the door in her face.  This isn't the first instance I've seen or heard of where the church has closed it's doors to someone in need.  However, I have had many more experiences that have been very rewarding.  I don't judge my Lord by the actions of his children.  We are all sinners and in need of his forgiveness and love.  Jesus didn't slam the door in our face in our time of need, his lost children did.  

[blackdiamond]

"If we are once save always saved then why bother doing anything after the "event"?  The thing is that the scripture uses a verb for saved that is best translated as a process...you know...salvation...a one time event and an ongoing process....saved AND being saved.  Once saved always saved is a terrible doctrine IMO."

I have heard salvation explained this way before, I just couldn't remember the explaination.  Also, since I have no training in Greek/Hebrew I have no authority to tell people how to translate it.

I would agree that quoting Bible texts to non-believers is mostly a waste of time, my purpose on this thread is to give myself a reason to study what I believe, grow in God and potentially enlighten someone else or be enlightened myself.

If we were trying to argue the validity of the Bible that is a completely different discussion.

[chim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this text point us to nature (His Creation) to learn about God?  It says that things can be understood by what God made, even his eternal power.

I know what your getting at, but in no way does that pertain to nature in Eternal life with God, or being Gods 2nd book!?!?

[chim]

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins because He LOVES us and ONLY those who believe in Him have eternal life.  The only logical conclusion is that unbelievers (people that have chosen not to believe) do NOT have eternal life.

I think the problem here is that every time you say Eternal Life, you are referring it to be with God, and that just happens to be the context you are using. Your ignoring that fact that if your not spending eternal life with God, its eternal life somewhere else and its not too pleasant!


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What kind of punishment?? Everlasting!.. not for a short time, not for a couple years... 

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Seems pretty obvious to me, just because we dont like the way someting sounds or dont like that it doesnt seem fair doesnt mean we can just eliminate it....

Have you noticed that there is a paragraph break between 10 and 11 which often means a break in thought or a transition?


Paragraph break or not..  doesnt take away from the clarity of the last few passags of this chapter..  address the passages.

Jesus came to this earth because He LOVES us.  Basically you are saying that the reason that you believe in Christ is because you don't want to die (burn in hell forever), this boils down to a relationship based on fear.  God wants us to love Him and the reason for wanting to go to heaven is because we can't imagine eternal separation from Him.  God is love.

Personally I believe that we are required to keep all ten commandments as given to Moses in the old testament, but I suspect that you believe that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross and the new law is (1) Love God, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  Is it really possible to genuinely love someone if your underlying motivation is fear?  I can't imagine loving someone that was threatening to torture me for all eternity if I didn't believe in them.

Maybe a better word would be SIMPLE rather than RETARDED, is it too easy for you to believe?  Are gifts difficult to get?

Be back to answer more...

[brainlessfool]

Liberal ?

AWwwwwwww , don't think he'd be pro-choise.         

[chim]

Jesus came to this earth because He LOVES us.  Basically you are saying that the reason that you believe in Christ is because you don't want to die (burn in hell forever), this boils down to a relationship based on fear.  God wants us to love Him and the reason for wanting to go to heaven is because we can't imagine eternal separation from Him.  God is love.

Personally I believe that we are required to keep all ten commandments as given to Moses in the old testament, but I suspect that you believe that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross and the new law is (1) Love God, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  Is it really possible to genuinely love someone if your underlying motivation is fear?  I can't imagine loving someone that was threatening to torture me for all eternity if I didn't believe in them.

Maybe a better word would be SIMPLE rather than RETARDED, is it too easy for you to believe?  Are gifts difficult to get?


My relationship is based off of my dependy for him. But there is also a healthy fear of the Lord there too! Its more of respect..  look in the Bible in what it says about the fear of the Lord... its a good thing.. so dont turn it around and day that I fear the Lord and thats too bad.. its too bad if you dont! I love the Lord with all my heart.. and I know that God is love. i want to go to Heaven for a few reasons..  One is I dont want to suffer eternally..  another is I want to be with Christ forever..... thats just how it is.. if you try and tell me you dont fear punishment and the Lord then you got issues!

It cannot be a literal description of the condition of humanity after death for several obvious reasons:
(1)   Abraham's bosom is a figurative term, not literal.
(2)   One drop of water can't cool a fire.
(3)   Heaven and Hell are not close enough to talk.


(1) This is linked to old Testament.. of course its figurative.. doesnt mean we are going to be in his bosom! Its an intimacy we will have as abrahams seed...  your grasping here!
(2) Im not sure what your getting at.. are you looking for silly points to argue..  this is a picture of how bad it is, that they crave even for a drop of water its so bad.. something.. anything to provide even a moment of some relief..  I cant believe you are bringing this up...
(3) We dont know how far apart they are.. we do know there is a great gulf in between them, obviously there is communication there.. I think it is safe to say according to scripture that they arent that far.. if they are, then sound travels pretty easy...

I see no point proven here.

The Bible teaches that sinners are not punished until the Day of Judgement.

Obviously they are according to these passages in Matthew.. and this is Christ speaking.. so i believe him!

The dead are not conscious.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is not help.  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that day his thoughts perish." – Psalms 146:3-4

Note that the thought cease.

Are you using the scripture to say that the dead are not conscious.. I dont see how that fits? Maybe i should find unclear random scripture like this too and make them into whole doctrines that dont support the Bible..

In this parable Jesus taught that no man was valued for his possessions.  In this life we settle our eternal destiny.  After death a great gulf is fixed.  "They have Moses and the prophets."  This shows that the writings of the Old Testament are important to us.
Im not sure where you are going with this... I agree that the Old Testament writing are very important.. 

[chim]

I think the bottom line is that we are all judged by our characters.  The Bible also says that the gospel will go to all the world, so maybe everyone will have the chance to know the truth?

We will be judged by what we have done and recieve our crowns of glory.. thats what happens at our judgment.... all the bad stuff and sins have already been paid for.. thats why i can rest in the Lord and not fear the judgment.

What I find so enthralling is how mainstream America swallows so much out of the Bible that is just plain out wrong or not even in there...here is one such example.

The verse states that "the love of money is THE root of all evil" etc.  Many translations say this, some get it right.

The actual Greek translation is minus the part of speech the would indicate the word "THE" before "root", thus the verse in its original form in the Greek actually reads...

"the love of money is A root of all evil"  see the big difference?

Money is Evil! There is not a big difference... I can see it be ok either way...

Once saved always saved is a terrible doctrine IMO.  Will I always love my boys? Of course.  There is NOTHING they could do that would ever make me NOT love them.  Will they always love me?  Depends on what time of their lives it is.  THey are still little so we'll see.  They will often be willful and do their own thing in spite of what my wishes are.  Does that make them any less my child?  Of course not.  Does that mean that my love will always be reciprocated?  Nope.

God doesn't make us love him once we exeperience the event...but that one event does not insure out relationship with him.  A relationship where there is no contact, no communication, no spending time together, there is no relationship.  I believe that if we don't work on that relationship, it will die like any other.

I could write pages on why once saved always saved is valid.....   bottom line.. we cant loose our salvation. Impossible. Nothing supports us losing our salvation.

Pick a particular point about this doctrine and lets discuss it..  dont be so general.

[blackdiamond]

I just lost a long post when my login times out 

I will try to re-post tonight.

[chim]

I hate it when that happens!!!

[88runner]

several years ago I met a guy that was collecting money in the subway, he said he had lost the use of his legs.
Well I proceded to kick his butt while telling him "get up and walk"  and you know what he raised himself on his dysfunctional legs and walked away(well it was more like running away) .

So that make 2
Walking on water ......check
Making an handicapped walk again .......check

You all know that should mean something!!

I'll try to find a blind man and will come back to you!!

[blackdiamond]

This isn't exactly what I had tired to post earlier today, but it has most of the same information and ideas.(1) "I think the problem here is that every time you say Eternal Life, you are referring it to be with God, and that just happens to be the context you are using. Your ignoring that fact that if your not spending eternal life with God, its eternal life somewhere else and its not too pleasant!

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What kind of punishment?? Everlasting!.. not for a short time, not for a couple years... 

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Seems pretty obvious to me, just because we dont like the way someting sounds or dont like that it doesnt seem fair doesnt mean we can just eliminate it...."

I guess that I don't understand why it is so difficult to believe that eternal damnation, eternal fire, eternal judgment and everlasting burnings simple mean that the result is eternal.  How can the devouring fire be "devouring" if nothing in it gets devoured?

Think of it this way, in some Middle Eastern countries you can have your hand cut off for stealing.  The punishment is eternal (in human terms), meaning you won't get your hand back, but they are not going to cut your hand off continually.  I think that it would be fair to say that you are suffering being handless for eternity.

(2) You still have not said who gets devoured in Revelation 20:9.  It seems that vs. 9 the wicked are devoured, then in vs. 10 Satan, the Best and the false prophet are tossed into the fire.  In my opinion, vs. 11 is starting a new thought because nobody is left after vs. 10.  Revelation 20:14 says that Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.  If you remember from an earlier post (the Bible Study) hades is the place that everyone goes when they die (1st death).  There is no coming back from the 2nd death.

(3) "My relationship is based off of my dependy for him. But there is also a healthy fear of the Lord there too! Its more of respect..  look in the Bible in what it says about the fear of the Lord... its a good thing.. so dont turn it around and day that I fear the Lord and thats too bad.. its too bad if you dont! I love the Lord with all my heart.. and I know that God is love. i want to go to Heaven for a few reasons..  One is I dont want to suffer eternally..  another is I want to be with Christ forever..... thats just how it is.. if you try and tell me you dont fear punishment and the Lord then you got issues!"

I completely agree that we should fear God, but my understanding of the true meaning is more along the lines of how we would feel to have the president (just assume that you like and respect him) show up at your house.  We all have a "fear" of people that we hold in high esteem.  I don't think that the Bible teaches that we should be fearful in the sense of having an axe murderer coming to dinner.  Personally, just being burned to death is more than enough to give me a healthy fear, but as a merciful God it isn't logical that He would punish anyone for eternity.

(4) "Money is Evil! There is not a big difference... I can see it be ok either way..."

I think that there is a difference, if for no other reason that money can be used to serve God, the problem is that most people suffer from greed and don't use it properly.  Because of greed money can be A root of evil, but it isn't an absolute.

(5) "...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."  Jude 1:7

"but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.  Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed."  Luke 17:29

I have always assumed that this was talking about the 2nd coming, but the Son of Man is the Devil so this is what happens when Satan is revealed to the world after the 2nd resurrection and just before the 2nd death.  At this time all will know the truth and acknowledge the justice of God.

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom is an example and Luke 17:29 says that it was destroyed.  So is it that we are destroyed or do we burn forever, it can't be both.  In my opinion we either have to assume that the eternal fire is a metaphor or the word destroyed (that is used more than once) has been horribly translated.  If you read Revelation, and the rest of the Bible, fire is used as a metaphor on a regular basis so which one makes more sense?

"But the heavens and the earth which are now reserved for fire until the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men."  2 Peter 3:16

Perdition - Loss of the soul; eternal damnation

(6) Tonight I noticed another interesting "word picture" in Revelation that was interesting.

"...and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea."  Revelation 20:8

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."  2 Peter 3:10

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God."  Revelation 15:2

The only interpretation of "works" that I can see is the unrighteous people because of their bad works (sin).

So we have the unrighteous people that are as the sands of the sea burning.  Those that have victory end up standing on a sea of glass.  How is glass made?  It is amazing to me how the Bible fits together cover to cover.

[blackdiamond]

No thing is evil, only the hearts of men.

It's all about relationship...active participation from both sides...God isn't going to drop the ball on his side...but we sure can.  We do it in all our other relationships, why should ours w/ God be any different.

That's the problem with talking Christianity like I stated before...I have much respect for Christ but no tolerance or patience for most of his followers.  99% of them have never even read the Bible cover to cover...not even once.  What kind of :bull crap: is that?  You can't give away what you don't know yourself.  They act nor talk any better than my non believer friends, in fact I have some non believer friends that are actually better people than my so called Christian friends.

I'm just curious...How much of the Bible have you read?  How many times have you read it cover to cover? In how many translations?  In how many languages?

Am I an expert? No.  The perfect Christian... not even close.  But I've bothered to read the Book just a few times in my day...and if you haven't, you're wasting my time.

I will be the first to admit that I have not read the Bible cover to cover, I have actually been working on it recently.  The way that I see it is that I have studied many topics in the Bible (I couldn't even venture what percentage of the Bible I have read, I honestly have no idea), but reading the Bible cover to cover like any other book will give a different "feeling" to the Bible and provide an overall perspective.

For a bit of background on myself, I was raised SDA, my grandparents were all SDA (some converted) and some of my great-grandparents were converted SDA's as well.  Sadly, I took most of my knowledge for granted and didn't take the opportunity to make it my own.  I wasn't baptized until a couple of years ago because I was never willing to make the promise to God when I wasn't willing to take a stand, and because I had problems with church politics.  By no means am I perfect now or an expert, but I have been learning alot and I have yet to find anything that contridicted anything that I was taught growing up.  I am making it a point to read and study everything that I am posting online because I don't want to simple quote what others wrote or told me.  This thread has sparked an interest in me to study that nothing else has, I have really appreciated the dialogue and questions that are forcing me to stay honest with myself.  I would hope that this thread isn't wasting anybodys time.

[blackdiamond]

"But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High.  For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.  Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."  Luke 6:35-36

Our Father in heaven is kind to those that are unthankful and do evil, He is also merciful.  Note that there are no qualifiers, it doesn't say merciful to those that do good.  This is a quote from Jesus himself.  Where is the kindness and mercy in making the unrighteous burn forever?

[chim]

I guess that I don't understand why it is so difficult to believe that eternal damnation, eternal fire, eternal judgment and everlasting burnings simple mean that the result is eternal.  How can the devouring fire be "devouring" if nothing in it gets devoured?

Are you going to deny the burning bush not getting devoured simply because nature says it should..  isnt this a small display of Gods power?

Think of it this way, in some Middle Eastern countries you can have your hand cut off for stealing.  The punishment is eternal (in human terms), meaning you won't get your hand back, but they are not going to cut your hand off continually.  I think that it would be fair to say that you are suffering being handless for eternity.

In human terms I would not think of that as Eternal....  this is a far reach for trying to pass off the other scripture... the point you make here would totally redifine the word eternity, and who are we to change definitions.

(2) You still have not said who gets devoured in Revelation 20:9.  It seems that vs. 9 the wicked are devoured, then in vs. 10 Satan, the Best and the false prophet are tossed into the fire.  In my opinion, vs. 11 is starting a new thought because nobody is left after vs. 10.  Revelation 20:14 says that Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.  If you remember from an earlier post (the Bible Study) hades is the place that everyone goes when they die (1st death).  There is no coming back from the 2nd death.

Im not sure whats hard about figuring this one out.. it tells you in verse 8 who it is..  The armies of Gog and Magog get devoured... you cant argue that.. so point still stands on the rest of the versus.

I completely agree that we should fear God, but my understanding of the true meaning is more along the lines of how we would feel to have the president (just assume that you like and respect him) show up at your house.  We all have a "fear" of people that we hold in high esteem.  I don't think that the Bible teaches that we should be fearful in the sense of having an axe murderer coming to dinner.  Personally, just being burned to death is more than enough to give me a healthy fear, but as a merciful God it isn't logical that He would punish anyone for eternity.

I dont look at the Lord as an ax murderer... dont exxagerate the point I was making. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. as far as you not thinking its logical..thats ok.. you dont have to understand why he does it..  we are told his thoughts and ways are above ours!

It's all about relationship...active participation from both sides...God isn't going to drop the ball on his side...but we sure can.  We do it in all our other relationships, why should ours w/ God be any different.

Im not disagreeing with that.. but if we were in danger of loosing our salvation everytime we did drop the ball.. there would be no hope for us.. because we sin everyday...  what a sad way to live.. in constant fear of loosing salvation..

That's the problem with talking Christianity like I stated before...I have much respect for Christ but no tolerance or patience for most of his followers.  99% of them have never even read the Bible cover to cover...not even once.  What kind of  is that?  You can't give away what you don't know yourself.  They act nor talk any better than my non believer friends, in fact I have some non believer friends that are actually better people than my so called Christian friends.

I'm just curious...How much of the Bible have you read?  How many times have you read it cover to cover? In how many translations?  In how many languages?

Am I an expert? No.  The perfect Christian... not even close.  But I've bothered to read the Book just a few times in my day...and if you haven't, you're wasting my time.

Im assuming that I am one of "those" Christians you are talking about..  For the record. I have read the Bible cover to cover..  I didnt necessairly retain it all.. who can.. but i have read many old testament books several times... and have read the whole new testament "Several" times... and usually read everyday. Therefor I feel qualified to say Im not pulling stuff out of my butt. But if your trying discredit me without asking first I understand.

"But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High.  For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.  Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."  Luke 6:35-36

I want everyone on this post to know that I have nothing but Love for them. Wether or not we agree on something or not doesnt change that. I appreciate everyones input on this post and enjoy good old fashioned debate.

Our Father in heaven is kind to those that are unthankful and do evil, He is also merciful.  Note that there are no qualifiers, it doesn't say merciful to those that do good.  This is a quote from Jesus himself.  Where is the kindness and mercy in making the unrighteous burn forever?

Where is that quote located...... Dont forget that one of his qualifications is also being a JUST God.

[blackdiamond]

Reading books on topics about the Bible, while noble, is no substitute for reading and studying the Bible itself.  Find some organized plan or make your own and if you are serious about your faith, there is no substitute for reading the Bible.

I'm not trying to sound condescending, but having an in-depth discussion about Biblical priniciples and/or doctrines with someone who hasn't read the Bible in the first place is pointless and a waste of time.  I'm not talking about a teaching/learning situation, which is totally different and this is not such a medium.

Please enlighten me as to what exactly SDA is?

Seventh-day Adventist

As you can tell from the discussion so far I don't agree with several of the mainstrean Christian doctrines, obviously the main on that was discussing in great detail a while ago is the 7th day Sabbath as found in the 10 Commandments.  The Sabbath was changed to Sunday by the Roman Catholic Church and mainstrean Christianity has followed along for hundreds of years.

see www.adventist.org for the official website (I only found it a few months ago).  The church was founded after the Great Disappointment in 1844 when a group of believers thought that Christ would return.  Some gave up and others vowed to study the Bible and find their error.  The church was founded (1863) by a group of these believers as part of the Millerite movement.

[The General]

CTENG... then quit reading the post! lol, j/k.

I like this topic.... my views:
  I believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect son of God.  I believe that he is fully man and fully God. On top of that I believe he died, rose again, and is alive and well today. I KNOW that I have an active relationship with Him and he is my salvation. Additionally, I believe he is the only perfect being to ever walk the earth and that he will return again someday.

Matt

DITTO

[*FFC*]

CTENG... then quit reading the post! lol, j/k.

I like this topic.... my views:
  I believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect son of God.  I believe that he is fully man and fully God. On top of that I believe he died, rose again, and is alive and well today. I KNOW that I have an active relationship with Him and he is my salvation. Additionally, I believe he is the only perfect being to ever walk the earth and that he will return again someday.

Matt

How did I miss that post Matt? I'm with The General... with the whole DITTO thing  

[chim]

It was common practice for Christians after the resurrection to celebrate the "Sabbath" on the day that Christ arose. Who cares what day of the week it is done. Another pointless point that will get no one to heaven or hell.

There is a big difference in the sabbath and the Sabbath.

I agree with this. Romans 13 and 14 talk about having a day for the Lord, and it doesnt matter which day. Sure its one of the ten commandments, but if we are going to be hardcore about the ten commandments, lets see one person go one day without violating at least one with thought, word or action. Legalistic if you ask me, and it doesnt change our realtionship with Christ.

[gonzo]

"Jesus is just all right, oh yea"

[blackdiamond]

I agree with this. Romans 13 and 14 talk about having a day for the Lord, and it doesnt matter which day. Sure its one of the ten commandments, but if we are going to be hardcore about the ten commandments, lets see one person go one day without violating at least one with thought, word or action. Legalistic if you ask me, and it doesnt change our realtionship with Christ.

Actually, it was the Roman Catholic Church that changed the Sabbath to Sunday, it done to incorporate the "heathen" world into being religious.  The Sabbath wasn't the only thing that they incorporated, do a little research on more of the things in the Catholic Church and you will find most of it came from the Pagans to make them comfortable.  The statue of Peter was originally the statue of Jupiter (I think) and that is where the two fingered wave came from that they use to bless.  The fish hats are from another pagan belief.  The bottom line is that the Sabbath was set aside to worship our Creator and He never authorized the change.

Don't have much time tonight...