What do you think of Christ?

[chim]

You say "many", what are some of the others besides the Sabbath that may be different than orthodox Christianity?

[*FFC*]

This topic (Jesus being Michael being Adam) is the first that I've completely disagreed with that I can think of right now... I'll post up more later I have to get back to work

[blackdiamond]

I believe that Saturday is the Sabbath, I didn't say I go to church every week.  In all actuality, I graduated High School almost 3 years ago, and I've been to church once since then.  I can worship and have my beliefs without doing it in the church.  I still claim to be SDA because I have many of the same beliefs as the SDA church. 

Just to "poke" a bit, what makes Sabbath different for you than any other day?  What do you do to worship your Creator?

[*FFC*]

Just to "poke" a bit, what makes Sabbath different for you than any other day?  What do you do to worship your Creator?

In my line of work, I don't have the privilege to go to church every Saturday.  I am not allowed to "force" my boys to come to church with me.  If they don't want to go, then I can't go.  I do what I can when I can.  Having to work every saturday makes it hard, but I find the time to worship my Creator in my own time unfortunately.  My Sabbath is whenever I have the time I guess I have been tryin to get back to church but being in the position that I am, I can't just up and leave my job, and I can't just leave on Sabbath mornings when I want to go to church

More later...

[NO4X]

Just to "poke" a bit, what makes Sabbath different for you than any other day?  What do you do to worship your Creator?

Where is that in the bible?  I can't think of a place where one is to worship on the seventh day.  The commandment was rest. 

[chim]

I'll post up more later I have to get back to work

Thanks for hangin with us

As I said before, post up some texts that either show them as one or separate, there should be clear Biblical evidence of one or the other.  I am not suggesting that you will find a text that says, "Jesus and Michael are NOT the same guy," but I might expect to see some interaction between them if they are different beings.

So if you want me to take the time to show that they are different, does that mean that you dont believe they are different???  Are you confirming they are the same??

[chim]

Just to "poke" a bit, what makes Sabbath different for you than any other day?  What do you do to worship your Creator?

Uh-oh!.. I hope there arent certain ways and rules to worship!

[NO4X]

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

"One of the..."  Sounds like their is more than one chief prince (archangel) to me.  I only believe in one Christ. 

Look up Archangel in the Jewish Encyclopedia.  There's a few of them.  They will name each one (one of which is Michael).  And, I would assume the jews would know....God lived among them for hundreds of years.

[OffRoadGal]

a friend sent me this, I'm not saying I believe, just something to think about http://www.venganza.org/  

[blackdiamond]

I have completed my study of Christ vs. Michael and I suspect that my conclusions will stir up an interesting discussion.  I used e-sword to find every passage that referred to Michael (the archangel) to see what it said.  I started with a look at the angel Gabriel for a comparison.  I am interested to see what FCC thinks 

********************

Jesus Christ & Michael the Archangel


What does the Bible say about the angel Gabriel?

Daniel 8:16 "And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called and said, 'Gabriel make this man understand the vision."

Daniel 9:20-22 "Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering."

Luke 1:19 "And the angel answered and said to him, 'I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings."

Luke 1:26-27 "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David.  The virgin's name was Mary."

Notice that Gabriel stands in the presence of God and is sent to do His will.  Also note that angel is spelled with a lowercase letter.


What does the Bible say about Michael the archangel?

Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.  Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come."

Michael is one of the chief princes.

Daniel 10:21 "But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth.  (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince."

Michael, the prince, upheld or sustained Daniel.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time, Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.  And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book."

Revelation 12:7-9 "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

It would be unexpected that Christ, or God, wouldn't be a war with the Devil in heaven.  Why would God have another angel, Satan's equal, perform this task?  How were devils cast out in the NT?  In the name of Jesus Christ, He alone has power over the Devil.


Does the Bible ever describe God as an angel?

Acts 7:38 "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected..."

Exodus 19:20 "Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain.  And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up."

"Living oracles" is referring to the Ten Commandments given to Moses in Exodus 20 by the Lord.  The only logical conclusion is that the "Angel" in Acts is the "Lord" in Exodus or we have a serious contradiction in God's Holy Word.  Note that this Angel is spelled with a capital letter, just as all references to the Lord God are.

Isaiah 63:9 "In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old."

This says that we were saved by the Angel of His Presence, He redeemed us.  Who is our redeemer? Christ!

Psalms 19:14 "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer."

Exodus 23:20-23 "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.  Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him."

Who alone can pardon, or forgive, our transgressions?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first."

Why would Christ shout with the voice of a lesser being to raise the dead?

Jude 1:9 "Yet, Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'"

Matthew 17:3 "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, taking with Him."

Mark 9:4 "And Elijah appeared to the with Moses and they were talking with Jesus."

Luke 9:30 "And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

It is obvious that Moses was raised from the dead and taken to heaven, along with Elijah and Enoch.  Again, is it logical that the Lord would send someone other than Himself to "dispute" with Satan over Moses' body?

Zechariah 3:2 "Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan!  The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!  Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"

Conclusions

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that directly mentions Michael and archangel and Jesus Christ together, but Acts 7:28 says that an Angel gave Moses the Ten Commandments and in Exodus 19:20 it says that the Lord came down on the mountain.  This obviously shows that one of the biblical descriptions for the Lord (Christ) is an Angel.  Several texts refer to Michael as a prince and Christ is the Prince of Peace.  The actions that Michael is seen doing in Scripture are very much the actions that we would expect Christ our Lord to do.

I believe that the evidence supports the belief that Christ and Michael are one and the same.  He was Michael the archangel (a title, not a type of being) prior to His incarnation as the man Jesus Christ.

[blackdiamond]

Uh-oh!.. I hope there arent certain ways and rules to worship!

Chim - My point isn't to tell FCC that she is wrong, I am just interested in hearing what she believes about the Sabbath since she professes SDA.  I suspect that her understanding is different that I would expect yours to be.  I suspect that FCC knows what I am asking.

FCC - I am honestly not judging you, I am just interested because you don't fit the mold of a traditional SDA believer.

[NO4X]

Now I know another SDA that believes this.  I told you it was church doctrine.

First of all...The Angel of the Lord is the only angel that is recorded being worshipped.  Why isn't it mentioned that Michael is to be worshipped?

Second, when the Angel of the Lord appeared to Menoah and his wife in Judges 13, when they asked him his name, why didn't he tell them it was Michael?  Why did he say it was a secret?  Wouldn't that be a lie, if he said his name was a secret when indeed it was michael?

In Revelation 19, an angel is showing John the things to come:

Verse 10, John tries to worship the angel, and the angel stops him.  Only one angel every wanted worship and he's been in trouble ever since.  I believe the Angel of the Lord is a manifestation of the pre-incarnate Christ.  Otherwise, David, the man after God's own heart, worshipped the wrong guy.  I doubt that happened.  Isaiah 63:9 describes it best as the angel of His presence.  Since to look on God directly would be certain death.  This is a manifestation we can be in the presence of....much like Christ.

Verse 11, John is shown a white horse and the rider is called True, Faithful, (names of Christ) and he judges in Righteousness....it's got to be Jesus.

Verse 12, describes his appearance and then states he had a name which no man knew.  IT IS A SECRET!!!  Much like the Angel of the Lord's name is a secret.

Verse 13, and he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

IT'S JESUS!!!


"Also note that angel is spelled with a lowercase letter."

Please note: there are no capitals and lower case in the hebrew or greek languages.

"Michael is one of the chief princes."

This is exactly who he is.  One of the chief princes....plural....meaning more than one.....It can't be Christ.

Daniel 12:1 proves nothing.  Michael is a chief prince that fights for Israel.  During the great tribulation, the world is going to try to destroy Israel.  Of course Michael would stand up, because he has to make sure the remnant of 144,000 with the seal, make it through o.k.

Revelation 12:7 proves only that Michael has angels below him.  We knew that.  Michael is one of the highest ranking angels of all the ranks of angels.(thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers).  And nowhere in this passage does it say that satan is thrown out of heaven by michael.  It simply states he was cast out.  I don't win a chess match by taking your king.  I win it by taking all the supporting pieces.

"Who is our redeemer? Christ!"

Which christ are you referring to?  If it's Michael the archangel, it is a false christ.  And it's not my redeemer.

[*FFC*]

This is exactly who he is.  One of the chief princes....plural....meaning more than one.....It can't be Christ.

FCC - I am honestly not judging you, I am just interested because you don't fit the mold of a traditional SDA believer.

You are correct. I don't fit the "mold" as you put it.  I work with kids. I can't just put them up on a shelf when Sabbath morning comes around and say "sorry guys, sit tight till I get out of church".  If I force these boys to go to church with me they can sue me an have my license.  The best I can do is ask them, and even still, in my position I can't leave my coworker on grounds without me so she'd have to find something to do in the meantime.  I have my beliefs, and sadly enough I'm not able to follow them precisely like I'd like to.  I believe wholeheartedly that it won't be held against me.  Did that answer yer question BD?

[NO4X]

O.k.  I've slept, and can continue with my post.  Let's see.  Oh yeah.

"Michael, the prince, upheld or sustained Daniel."

You better read that verse again.  The verse, in case you forgot, was Daniel 10:21.  This isn't Daniel speaking.  It is the angel messenger.  He is stating that no one stands to fight with him, against the princes of persia and grecia (greece) except Michael  your prince.  Kind of spooky here.  Is the bible stating that there is a power in another dimension behind all the worlds countries?  It seems to imply that.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 also proves nothing about the identity of Michael.  Where does it say the shout is from the voice of the archangel?  The verse states that the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout....comma, the shout comes from the Lord.  Then another item is the voice of the archangel.  See Jesus' own words:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

When his angels are gathering his elect in the last day, where does it say they will keep quiet?  It's going to be a joyous occassion.  I doubt they will be quiet.  This might be why you would hear the voice of the archangel...you know, maybe giving commands to the troops of angels under his command.  Telling them to gather everybody, don't forget that guy over there, etc.

"Why would Christ shout with the voice of a lesser being to raise the dead?"

Where does it say that the lesser being is raising the dead?  For all you know it could be the sound of the trumpet that wakes them up.

Jude 1:9 again proves nothing.  It simply says that Michael contended with satan for the body of Moses.  The word "durst not..." in the greek implies respect...like respect for someone who outranks you.  And we all no that God is a respecter of no one. 

Zecheriah 3:2, differs from Jude.  Here Joshua is standing before the Angel of the Lord (pre-incarnate Christ) and satan is there to resist Joshua.  Why would satan need to  resist a weaker being?  Joshua was just standing there.  Simple...the word resist means to accuse.  After all, that's what satan does.  He tempts us, and deceives us, and then accuses us before God that we are unworthy of eternal fellowship with our creator.  The Angel of the Lord (pre-incarnate Christ) is simply telling satan to "be quiet".  Proves nothing about the identity of Michael.

I do agree with you that Moses has been raised from the dead.  Where does it say that Michael did the raising?  He just went to pick up the body.  Was satan there accusing Moses of being unworthy to be raised?  Was Moses already raised and satan was detaining him?  The scripture doesn't say.

"is it logical that the Lord would send someone other than Himself to "dispute" with Satan over Moses' body?"

I don't know...is it logical that the Lord would send angels to gather all his elect at the last days?  (See Matt 24:31) 

In closing I would like to state a few scriptures.

Hbr 1:5   For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Notice it's a question.  Unto which of the angels....Not unto which of the angels but Michael.  I suppose you could suggest that it was said to the Angel of the Lord...but now, His name is a secret, isn't it.  And He accepts worship, so He really doesn't fit the angel definition.

Pro 30:6   Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

When you make comments that the archangel raised the dead and Michael casts out satan, which the bible does not specifically say, you are adding to God's word.  EGW does this throughout her writings.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

This is essentially what you are doing.  You are making Christ, the creator who exists from eternity, less than he actually is, by putting him on the same level as an archangel.

[NO4X]

"and see what Biblical information my pastor passes along."

Oh, don't confuse me with the facts, my church has already told me what to believe.

Isn't this the problem after all.  I think there would be much more agreement on christian beliefs if people would quit believing what they are told to believe, and start looking into it themselves.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jhn 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The above versus states we already have a teacher inside of us.  I think if people actually took these versus to heart, we wouldn't be seeing all these different beliefs because like it says in Eph. 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,.

[NO4X]

"You are correct. I don't fit the "mold" as you put it."

Good for you Freakchik.  We aren't supposed to fit a mold, but God is to mold us into the shape He wants us to be.  Our relationship in a church has nothing to do with how God perceives us.  He only cares that we have a relationship with Him, enough to trust Him for everything, including our salvation.  Which, like I said, is a molding process, an ongoing relationship.  When we accept Christ into our lives, we are truly His, and we will be what He wants us to be.

[blackdiamond]

"and see what Biblical information my pastor passes along."

Oh, don't confuse me with the facts, my church has already told me what to believe.

Isn't this the problem after all.  I think there would be much more agreement on christian beliefs if people would quit believing what they are told to believe, and start looking into it themselves.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jhn 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The above versus states we already have a teacher inside of us.  I think if people actually took these versus to heart, we wouldn't be seeing all these different beliefs because like it says in Eph. 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,.

NO4x - I am not looking for any pastor to tell me what to believe, but there is nothing wrong with learning, or gathering information, from other people.  We are all responsible for our own knowledge and understanding.  It will take some time to review all of your comments on the Michael subject, I appreciate the fact that you have reference the Bible in your argument, opinions are pointless separate from the Word.

[blackdiamond]

"You are correct. I don't fit the "mold" as you put it."

Good for you Freakchik.  We aren't supposed to fit a mold, but God is to mold us into the shape He wants us to be.  Our relationship in a church has nothing to do with how God perceives us.  He only cares that we have a relationship with Him, enough to trust Him for everything, including our salvation.  Which, like I said, is a molding process, an ongoing relationship.  When we accept Christ into our lives, we are truly His, and we will be what He wants us to be.

I have no problem with people not fitting into a "mold," we are all required to live the life that Christ convicts us to live.

Do any of you find it interesting the mix of people in this discussion?  I'm a fairly traditional SDA, FCC is a less traditional SDA, germ is an SDA convert, NO4x is a former SDA, and gotrocks and gotrocks girl are also SDA...this is quite a group 

[*FFC*]

Do any of you find it interesting the mix of people in this discussion?  I'm a fairly traditional SDA, FCC is a less traditional SDA, germ is an SDA convert, NO4x is a former SDA, and gotrocks and gotrocks girl are also SDA...this is quite a group 

I think it's great!

[blackdiamond]

NO4x - I am having a difficult time trying to put something together that is concise and addresses all of the things you bring up.

First, I have never said that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is an angel because He absolutely isn't.  Is it possible that in the kingdom of God He is the One that the angels "report/answer" to?  After all, using the description of "kingdom of God" and "government" are only descriptions using the words of man to describe things that are beyond our understanding.  I think that it is entirely possible that Christ, being the Angel of the Lord (obviously not an actual angel) could have the title of "archangel."

The Bible isn't very specific about this topic and I can easily see how people can see it differently.  I don't think that the Bible is clear enough on the subject that it can be proven without reading between the lines in a similar way to assuming that Moses was raised from the dead (It never really says that he was raised, Moses just shows up with Elijah talking to Christ...I wonder why Enoch wasn't there as well?).  If I read the texts from my perspective it makes sense to me and if I read them from your prospective it makes sense as well.

As for His name being secret, which seems to be a key point in your argument, it doesn't really add up for me.

Judges 13:18 "And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" NKJV

Judges 13:18 "He replied, "Why do you ask my name?  It is beyond understanding." NIV

The Angel of the Lord never says that His name is a secret, He simply asks why they want to know and says that it is beyond their understanding.  The Bible give numerous names for Jesus Christ (Wonderful, Counselor, Might God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, The Word, etc...), so why couldn't Michael be included in the list?

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.  And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.  He had a name written that no one knew except Himself."

The message says, "He has a Name inscribed that's known only to himself."  I don't see how this means that his name is a secret; it simply means that there is A name, one single name, that is only known to Himself.  The Bible gives numerous names for Him, we can only assume that the name talked about in Revelation isn't one of them.

Most of the names in the Bible for God are descriptions of His character, is it possible that this verse means that no one fully understands God?  God is beyond our wildest comprehension, it almost sounds like we may never fully understand Him.

This topic is one that the Bible doesn't make crystal clear, in my opinion, and I suspect that we could argue about it for a long time and never agree.  I don't consider this topic to be a salvation issue, and I don't think that it ever will be so how about we discuss things that are more vital to my salvation since I don't subscribe to the once-save-always-saved theory.

[NO4X]

The Angel of the Lord never says that His name is a secret,

Jdg 13:18  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret? - KJV

The message says, "He has a Name inscribed that's known only to himself." I don't see how this means that his name is a secret; it simply means that there is A name, one single name, that is only known to Himself.

se·cret
Pronunciation: 'sE-kr&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin secretus, from past participle of secernere to separate, distinguish, from se- apart + cernere to sift -- more at SECEDE, CERTAIN
1 a : kept from knowledge or view : HIDDEN b : marked by the habit of discretion : CLOSEMOUTHED c : working with hidden aims or methods : UNDERCOVER <a secret agent> d : not acknowledged : UNAVOWED <a secret bride> e : conducted in secret <a secret trial>
2 : remote from human frequentation or notice : SECLUDED
3 : revealed only to the initiated : ESOTERIC
4 : constructed so as to elude observation or detection <a secret panel>
5 : containing information whose unauthorized disclosure could endanger national security -- compare CONFIDENTIAL, TOP SECRET

Most of the names in the Bible for God are descriptions of His character, is it possible that this verse means that no one fully understands God? God is beyond our wildest comprehension, it almost sounds like we may never fully understand Him.

I like this explanation.  I've never heard it put like that before.

I don't consider this topic to be a salvation issue, and I don't think that it ever will be

Who Christ is DOES have to do with your salvation.  That's my point. 

Look, Blackdiamond, I have to apologize if I am being offensive.  I have a problems with some SDA doctrine, (this being one of them) and not with you.  I hold you in high regard for your willingness to look into things and debate your points.  I love many many people in the SDA church.  My family members still belong.  And I feel I have made a couple more SDA friends through this chat.  However, as I said earlier, if the doctrine is not true by the bible, I have to say so. 

[NO4X]

I do agree with you that it is time to go to the next subject.

[blackdiamond]

The Angel of the Lord never says that His name is a secret,

Jdg 13:18  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret? - KJV

However, as I said earlier, if the doctrine is not true by the bible, I have to say so. 

I check the KJV and that is what it says, it is interesting to me that none of the other version seem to word it that way, at least the ones I have in e-sword.

This is exactly what I am trying to do as well so no offense taken.  We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

[NO4X]

"it is interesting to me that none of the other version seem to word it that way, at least the ones I have in e-sword.
"

O.k.  I did dig into this and found there are many translations that use wonderful, a few that use secret, and one, The new living translation. that says, " you wouldn't understand it if I told you". 
Seems to fit your explanation pretty well. 

I looked a little farther into the original Hebrew.  Dude, you have to bookmark www.blueletterbible.org.  This online tool is comparable to e-sword, only i think it's more user friendly.

Anyway, the hebrew translation has the same word twice in a row.  The word is "piliy".  So, the sentence has pily pily.  Right next to each other.  The translation of this word is "wonderful, incomprehensible, extraordinary". 

I'm no hebrew scholar...in fact, I can't even read it, but I think we could say the meaning is wonderfully incomprehensible....or in other words...we wouldn't understand. 

Nice.  Spirit's at work here.

[blackdiamond]

I have taken the liberty to move all of the religious discussion from the Religion and Bible Study threads to this thread.  I can't keep up with all three discussion and I have trouble knowing what information to post where.  I am transfering some of the discussion from the Bible Study thread because I don't want to end the discussion in the middle of defending my false doctrine, that seems way to coward for my liking.

I will first post a quote from NO4x and then in the next reply I will post my defense of the first one, the rest I am still working on.

"Black Diamond, you profess to be a christian.  I also make this profession.  So, like my post regarding Doug Batchelor, if you are going to represent christians, being a christian, I want to be sure you are representing my beliefs accurately.

"I don't see much point in really professing my opinion if I don't support it with the Bible"

I agree totally.  There is not a christian on this website that would not change his beliefs, if those beliefs conflicted with the Word of God.

Now I understand you did not provide biblical evidence for all of your stated items, and I am certanly not going to ask you to.  But if you would please provide the biblical evidence for the items that I refer to as false doctrine.  And Blackdog, I believe I have covered the issue of Jesus being Michael the archangel in another thread.

"Christ was willing to risk His place in the Trinity to come to earth and challenge Satan as a man with a sinful nature"

Please provide the biblical evidence for this.  You agree that Christ is God.  Then how did He risk His place in the Trinity?  Is God, when he becomes a man, so limited that he could sin?  Sinning is one of the few things God can't do.  Romans 8:3 states he was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh.  Not that he had a sinful nature.  According to the sermon on the mount, if He was tempted at any time, He sinned.  That's what commandment #10 is all about.  Coveting, or being discontent with your present state of affairs in anyway.  A temptation is only a temptation, if there is an actual desire to give in to that suggestion.  Another word would be enticement.  When satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, the word tempted, means tested, in the greek.

"Christ's sacrifice covers every sin that we could ever commit, IF we continually choose to accept His gift of grace.  Christ will never retract the offer of Salvation, but it is up to us to continually choose to accept the gift."

Now we are back to the once saved always saved question.  This is EGW muddying up the water.

Mar 16:15&16  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It doesn't say he that believeth and is baptized every day shall be saved. 

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Notice, once you believe you possess it.  It doesn't say once you believe you can have it.

Let's look into what eternal means, in merriam-webster:

eter·nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS

Definition #4 sums it up...existing at all times.  Now answer this...How is something eternal if it can be lost?

"Prior to Christ's return the issue of the Sabbath will become the center of focus between the mark of the beast and the seal of God"

Again, this is an EGW teaching.  Please provide the book, chapter, and verse that supports it in the bible.  Jesus himself stated that the greatest commandment was the shema.

Mat 22:36 & 37  Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Also, Paul is quite clear what the seal of God is in Ephesians.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Notice the people were sealed after they believed.  Not after they believed daily.)

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Again, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

"At the first resurrection the wicked are killed by the glory of Christs return"

Please provide the scripture that states the wicked are killed by Christs glory at the first resurrection.

"(Christ never touches the ground at the 1st resurrection)"

Really, then please explain Zechariah 14:3 & 4  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Please provide a verse that states people are killed by his glory, and that he doesn't touch the ground.  This passage says the opposite of what you are claiming.

"The righteous then go to heaven for a period of 1000 years to reign with Christ and review the "records" to find out for ourselves the justice of God.  The books are opened and we get the chance to see the justice of the judgement."

Please show this in the bible.  Again, this is not a biblical fact.  Jesus reigns from Zion: a physical place on the map in Israel.

Isa 2:3 & 4  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Why would he have to rebuke anybody, if all the wicked people are dead?

"After the 1000 years the holy city descends on the earth,"

Again, EGW speaking here.  Please provide the biblical evidence for this.  Per Revelation the New Jerusalem doesn't descend from heaven until the old heaven and earth pass away.

Rev 21:1 & 2  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I want to state again, your views are at risk of leading people astray.  They are going catch new believers in the legalistic merry-go-round that profits nobody.  And we, as christians, are responsible to God.  There is alot of information you give that sounds biblical, but cannot be proven biblically.  And after all, Jesus himself, says, that God's word is truth.

Jhn 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

[blackdiamond]

Here is my "explaination" of the first one, this is actually one that I really struggle with, as you will see, and I'm not above saying that I don't have all of the answers.

"Christ was willing to risk His place in the Trinity to come to earth and challenge Satan as a man with a sinful nature"

From NO4x - "Please provide the biblical evidence for this.  You agree that Christ is God.  Then how did He risk His place in the Trinity?  Is God, when he becomes a man, so limited that he could sin?  Sinning is one of the few things God can't do.  Romans 8:3 states he was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh.  Not that he had a sinful nature.  According to the sermon on the mount, if He was tempted at any time, He sinned.  That's what commandment #10 is all about.  Coveting, or being discontent with your present state of affairs in anyway.  A temptation is only a temptation, if there is an actual desire to give in to that suggestion.  Another word would be enticement.  When satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, the word tempted, means tested, in the greek."

First, I really struggle with whether or not Christ had the sinful nature of man or not.  It is possible that it is a weakness in my understanding or simply that I don't know how to express my thoughts in the correct words.  Christ came to the earth as a man and had no advantage over us and was tempted the same way that we are.

Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."

Jesus was made in the same way as we (man) are.

Psalms 8:4-5 "What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?  For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor."

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

If Christ was tempted the same way that we are, and was made like us, it seems reasonable to me that He had a sinful body (maybe saying a "sinful nature" is a poor way to say it).  The bottom line is that there must have been a possibility that Satan could be successful with his temptations/tests or the standard for temptation would have been different for Christ.

Trying to figure out what might have happened to Christ if He had fallen into temptation, and sin, opens up a theological question that is way beyond my comprehension.  I talked to my pastor/friend about this very topic and he said that it was one of the topics that come up among theologins.  Jesus was all God and all man; God and sin do not mix so there is an immediate paradox.  Also, God is immortal by definition and the wages of sin being death which creates another paradox.  This is where my statement about risking His place in the Trinity comes from.

I don't know how to explain it, but Jesus Christ was a man, with the possibility of sin, just like us.  Thankfully, He resisted temptation and provided a way of salvation for us!

Romans 8:1-4 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."  NKJV

Romans 8:1-4 "With the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved. Those who enter into Christ's being-here-for-us no longer have to live under a continuous, low-lying black cloud.  A new power is in operation. The Spirit of life in Christ, like a strong wind, has magnificently cleared the air, freeing you from a fated lifetime of brutal tyranny at the hands of sin and death.   God went for the jugular when he sent his own Son. He didn't deal with the problem as something remote and unimportant. In his Son, Jesus, he personally took on the human condition, entered the disordered mess of struggling humanity in order to set it right once and for all. The law code, weakened as it always was by fractured human nature, could never have done that. The law always ended up being used as a Band-Aid on sin instead of a deep healing of it.
And now what the law code asked for but we couldn't deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us." Message

What is the law of sin and death?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[blackdiamond]

"it is interesting to me that none of the other version seem to word it that way, at least the ones I have in e-sword.
"

O.k.  I did dig into this and found there are many translations that use wonderful, a few that use secret, and one, The new living translation. that says, " you wouldn't understand it if I told you". 
Seems to fit your explanation pretty well. 

I looked a little farther into the original Hebrew.  Dude, you have to bookmark www.blueletterbible.org.  This online tool is comparable to e-sword, only i think it's more user friendly.

Anyway, the hebrew translation has the same word twice in a row.  The word is "piliy".  So, the sentence has pily pily.  Right next to each other.  The translation of this word is "wonderful, incomprehensible, extraordinary". 

I'm no hebrew scholar...in fact, I can't even read it, but I think we could say the meaning is wonderfully incomprehensible....or in other words...we wouldn't understand. 

Nice.  Spirit's at work here.

I think this is the first time in all of the discussion on all three threads that a common understanding was found!

   

I would agree that the Spirit is working.

[chim]

Is this what I get for not having internet access at home! I get left behind!

Here is what I have heard that would support Christ being sinless....

Christ was sinless till the point he was on the cross, at that point he experienced sin and took the sins of the world upon himself, then died. Sounds fairly logical.

[blackdiamond]

Is this what I get for not having internet access at home! I get left behind!

Here is what I have heard that would support Christ being sinless....

Christ was sinless till the point he was on the cross, at that point he experienced sin and took the sins of the world upon himself, then died. Sounds fairly logical.

Christ was absolutely sinless (He did take all sin upon Himself at the cross); however, having a sinful body simple means that His body was affected by sin (i.e. He could get sick etc...) and having a "sinful nature" just means that, as a man, He had the same propensity to sin as we have (He was tempted the same way we are) and only resisted because He kept His connection with the Father.     My head is hurting thinking about how this all fits together.

[Ebbs15]

I relate christ and the bilble to that of a great story told along time ago when word of mouth was the ONLY way things traveled... the story was eventually written down and became the bilble we know today... I'm not saying that there is no god... but I do not know... and in my mind there is no proof one way or another... for me a book and billion+ people aren't enough to convince me... I need science... as for Christ... he was a man long ago... probably a great guy that was well ahead of his time in terms of his views of mankind... he was put to the cross and died there... nothing more...

I think the bilbe and religion is needed though... people need to think that there is something is in control... that they're not responsible for all their actions... and that there is a reason for the bad things that happen... it makes it easier to swallow... I do this myself... I chalk it up to Karma... though I find myself only doing this when something bad happens... so do I really believe in karma?  no not really... but it makes it easier to swallow the hardship... that it was out of my hands... anyways... that's my veiw... [flame retardant suit]