What do you think of Christ?

[BLACKDOG]

I know how that feels I've got friends who are so close, yet so far away

The question I have is how to reach out to them without putting them on the defense.

The best way is to be yourself, and let God guide you.  He'll open their hearts at the strangest of moments.  I actually had the blessing of leading a friend I had known for years to Christ in the parking lot in front of a Mongolian BBQ   that was crazy.  This was a person my family and I had been praying for for several years.  He'd been one of my best friends for about 5 years before that day. 

[NO4X]

Incredible!!!

[chim]

Praise God thats awesome!

[FATB0Y]

FATBOY->  

[dubmatic]

I find the best way to not offend those your trying to reach out to is to let them see your actions the way you live your life..... So many non christians have this feeling about christians is that they are bible thumpers who go around condeming every non christian. The person your trying to reach try to become friends with them that way its alot easier for them to open up to you, let them know that your not perfect.... because no one is. Alot of the time I find it easy sharing with some one but letting them know hey I havent led that perfect life but this is how god helped me out.....

[BLACKDOG]

I find the best way to not offend those your trying to reach out to is to let them see your actions the way you live your life..... So many non christians have this feeling about christians is that they are bible thumpers who go around condeming every non christian. The person your trying to reach try to become friends with them that way its alot easier for them to open up to you, let them know that your not perfect.... because no one is. Alot of the time I find it easy sharing with some one but letting them know hey I havent led that perfect life but this is how god helped me out.....

  I've actually had God open doors to people through me because I do drink on occasion.  I know it is wrong to get hammered, but to have a beer everyonce in a while,   I don't think there is anythign wrong with it, nor does it say there is in the Bible.  I've had a few friends say that the only reason they listened to my "Christian BS"  is because I was willing to toss back a beer with them, and didn't sit back and by saying " I don't drink" make them feel as if I were better than them.  I'm not saying my actions were right or wrong, but it is amazing how God works

[chim]

I agree with you Blackdog, I think we have freedom in Christ.. obviousley not to get hammered or even just drunk, but a drink in my opinion is ok. Its only a problem when it could bring another brother down. In that case I would say, dont do it around people who already have that as a weekness or a problem.

[dubmatic]

Blackdog and Chim I agree with you both.....

[NO4X]

There is freedom in Christ.  I do think that being "perfect" is going to turn alot of people off, and I am not above having a drink, unless, as Chim stated, it's a point of weakness for the person.  If the person is a reformed alcoholic, I should be sensitive to that. 

My concern is for my friends and family that are still a part of this cult.  The hardest people to reach with Christ, are the people who already think they know Him.  How would you reach out to them?

[BLACKDOG]

I agree with you Blackdog, I think we have freedom in Christ.. obviousley not to get hammered or even just drunk, but a drink in my opinion is ok. Its only a problem when it could bring another brother down. In that case I would say, dont do it around people who already have that as a weekness or a problem.

I agree with the first part for sure   Not so sure about the second, I've got bible verses that could go both ways in that arguement.  I could also see it being a postive thing to a person with a problem, by showing that a person can have a drink, but not need it, and not overindulge. 

NO4X, I truly don't know for sure.  It is the same way with Mormons, and it can be very difficult.  I'd think just consistent prayer, and letting the proof be in your actions

[dubmatic]

NO4X another thing you could try doing is say if your going to church or bible,bible study, or any event put on by your church or friends from the church you could ask them to come along with you( the person your trying to reach out to.) You ask them enough sooner or later they be bound to come with you.

[NO4X]

Just discovered that Ellen G. White is a polytheist.  I am amazed how the Spirit works.  He will show you the truth when you turn away from what is keeping you from Him.

blackdog and dubmatic, thank you for your advice. 

[blackdiamond]

Just discovered that Ellen G. White is a polytheist.  I am amazed how the Spirit works.  He will show you the truth when you turn away from what is keeping you from Him.

blackdog and dubmatic, thank you for your advice. 

I'm not trying to start an arguement about EG White, but I am interested in your sources/information that show her to be a polytheist.

[NO4X]

I'm not trying to start an arguement about EG White, but I am interested in your sources/information that show her to be a polytheist.

Are you asking because you feel the need to defend her, and explain away her statements, or are you asking because you want to know the truth about what she teaches in her writings?

[BLACKDOG]

Just discovered that Ellen G. White is a polytheist.  I am amazed how the Spirit works.  He will show you the truth when you turn away from what is keeping you from Him.

blackdog and dubmatic, thank you for your advice. 

  Its what we're all here for

bd, I'm working on reading that book.  Its been sitting on my desk, waiting to be read, and I keep getting school stuff in the way   I'll try to get it done this week

[blackdiamond]

Are you asking because you feel the need to defend her, and explain away her statements, or are you asking because you want to know the truth about what she teaches in her writings?

I am interested in learning any viable information that may or may not change my opinion or my beliefs.  Having said that, I don't feel the need to defend her to you because salvation can be gained with or without her writings.  The Bible is the key and nothing else.  To be honest I may not even respond to the evidence that you post because it is the type of discussion that has no end and always goes in circles and has almost zero benefit for the members of this board.  I feel that we have already been there done that and the discussion is better suited for a group of SDA or SDA/non-SDA to discuss.

I am happy to hear that you are growing in Christ and feel that you are being led by the Spirit, that should be everyones goal.  I will add one word of caution for you to take or leave as you see fit.  I realize that you are a former, or ex, SDA Christian and since I am an SDA I can partially understand your strong feelings about EG White, BUT my advise to you is to simply leave her alone if you don't believe in her writings.  Your relationship with Christ must be based on the Bible and not being an ex-SDA or ex-EG White "believer".  It is possible that your "excitement" in finding evidence against EG White may partially be motivated because other members of your family are SDA, but I seriously doubt that you will ever convince them of your beliefs by "attacking" her directly.  Show them what you believe with the Bible alone and see where it leads.  Personally, I am still determining my thoughts on EG White.  Also, be careful not to discount a belief simply because EG White believes it, almost all "false" teachers/prophets/leaders have some, or a significant amount, of truth in their teachings/writings, the key is to know the difference.  Don't define yourself by what you are not.

My wife gave me a book to read a while back that I was about half way through when I found several things that were absolutely incorrect and I simply put down the book and moved on.  I didn't feel the need to continue disproving the authors beliefs because it was apparent that they were misguided in their beliefs.  Don't get me wrong, I don't stop reading everything that differs from my opinions/beliefs, but when it differs on a subject that I have truly studied for myself and know what I believe I don't see the point in continuing.

I am honestly not trying to "pick" at you in a negative way, but I think a lot of people fall into the trap of defining themselves by what they are not, rather than by what they are.

[NO4X]

Thank you, BlackDiamond, for your words of advice.  You make some accurate observations, as well as, some insightful comments.  I will seriously consider what you have said, and take some of it to heart. 

First of all, let's try to put a definition on what makes a god.

God is imperishable, everlasting, self-existent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, alone subsisting from eternity to eternity.

I know this isn't everything, but we can say that these attributes apply only to the One True God.

Here are the sources that show Ellen White's polytheistic views.

In her book Evangelism.

The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2}
He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}
With the Father at Sinai.--When they [Israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.--Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866) {Ev 616.3}

So, according to Ellen White, there is an eternal, self-existent God the Father, and an eternal, self-existent Son of God.  This means, per the definition of a god, there are TWO Gods, both eternal, and both self-existent.

According to Luke 1:35, Jesus wasn't the Son of God until his Birth.  Before that, he was God the Father according to Isaiah 9:6.  He didn't pre-exist as a seperate entity before His birth, as Mrs. White tries to describe in The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 1, Chapter 1.

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him.

Ellen White is a polytheist!

[chim]

I think the important thing here, that as subtle as it may be, that if you follow a false prophet, you may be believing in a different Jesus even though you claim to believe the Bible. If someone is 100% correct in their theology, but a little off on who Christ is, that may be enough to loose your soul..  and why gamble.. steer clear of any false prophets, do what they Bible says, dont associate yourself with them or have anything to do with them... its all about Christ, and who he really is and that is nothing less than God in the flesh. Not A god, but THE God.

[NO4X]

Hear, Hear!!!

[blackdiamond]

According to Luke 1:35, Jesus wasn't the Son of God until his Birth.  Before that, he [Jesus Christ the Son of God] was God the Father according to Isaiah 9:6.  He didn't pre-exist as a seperate entity before His birth...

Absolutely FALSE

Luk 1:35 MSG  The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, the power of the Highest hover over you; Therefore, the child you bring to birth will be called Holy, Son of God.

Luk 1:35 NIV  The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[3] the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 says what the baby will be called, but does not specify if is a new or existing name.   
   
Isa 9:6 BBE  For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.

I will admit that reading this verse alone you definitely peaked my interest, but...

Luk 3:21-22 NIV  When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened  (22)  and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Luke 3:21-22 plainly and clearly defines the Godhead, or Trinity.  The Holy Spirit was present in the form of a dove, Christ the Son of God was being baptized and a voice was heard from heaven saying, "This is my Son."  It is only logical to assume that the voice is from God the Father.   

2Pe 1:16-17 NIV  We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.  (17)  For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Peter tells us in 2 Peter 1:16-17 that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, received honor and glory from God the Father.
Now that the Bible has established that God the Father and God the Son are not one and the same, we are forced to come up with another explanation for Isaiah 9:6 since the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

It seems reasonable that Christ, the Son of God, came to earth to redeem us from sin and to take dominion of the world back from Satan (Prince of this World in John 12:31) who had taken it from Adam in the Garden of Eden.  Adam was the original Prince of the world and father of all mankind.  Christ took back what Adam had lost.

Now that we know that God the Father and God the Son are not one and the same, all of the attributes of God must apply to both.

God: (a) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. (b)The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being

Omnipotent: Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful

Omniscient: Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity

*Everlasting: Lasting forever; eternal

*from your definition of God that I suspect we all agree with

It seems reasonable that for God the Son, Jesus Christ, to be God, He absolutely must have existed prior to His incarnation.

I think the important thing here, that as subtle as it may be, that if you follow a false prophet, you may be believing in a different Jesus even though you claim to believe the Bible. If someone is 100% correct in their theology, but a little off on who Christ is, that may be enough to loose your soul..  and why gamble.. steer clear of any false prophets, do what they Bible says, dont associate yourself with them or have anything to do with them... its all about Christ, and who he really is and that is nothing less than God in the flesh. Not A god, but THE God.

Proving one teaching or belief to be incorrect does make one a false teacher or phophet, but one false teaching or belief does not mean that everthing they teach or believe is false.  We are to test everthing against the Bible, not test one "sample" belief and then assume everthing else to be false as well.  I don't think that we need to continue to study the teaching or beliefs of that person, but we cannot make blanket assumptions without testing everthing using the Bible.

[NO4X]

Blackdiamond, I think you may want to revise your posting.  Not only did you not disprove my claim...you just admitted you are a polytheist also. 

Tell me, are you a pastor?  From my experience with SDA pastors, I can only assume you are one.

Could you please give me your interpretation of the following Ellen White passage. 

Our policy is, Do not make prominent the objectionable features of our faith, which strike most decidedly against the practices and customs of the people, until the Lord shall give the people a fair chance to know that we are believers in Christ, that we do believe in the divinity of Christ, and in His pre-existence.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 253.

Sounds like, "don't tell them the truth, until they are one of us.....one of us.....one of us.....one of us.....one of us."

Now...give 'em the testimony!

"I know the church is true.  I know that Ellen White is a prophet. I know the sabbath is the seal of God."

Oh, and by the way...according to Deuteronomy 13, proving ONE teaching to be incorrect does make a person a false teacher or prophet.  In fact, in Israel, they were to be stoned to death. 

[blackdiamond]

Note: Quotes are from NO4X

NO4X, did you notice that I completely ignored EG White in my response as it had no bearing on my argument.  If I were to say that I thought she was a false prophet would you be willing to argue with the Bible alone rather than trying to discredit me by using her writing?

"Blackdiamond, I think you may want to revise your posting.  Not only did you not disprove my claim...you just admitted you are a polytheist also."

How do you explain Genesis 1:26 & Luke 3:21-22?

If believing in the Trinity (i.e. God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit) makes me a polytheist, then I guess that is what the Bible teaches.  The Trinity is a fairly common understanding of the Bible.

Gen 1:26-27 BBE  And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us: and let him have rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every living thing which goes flat on the earth.  (27)  And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.

Verse 26, "make man in OUR [plural] image" – this is the wording in nearly every Bible translation or paraphrase.

Verse 27, "made man in his [singular] image"

Three distict "individuals" yet all ONE.  How does it work?  I'm looking forward to finding out in heaven, I don't claim to understand everything about God.

Luk 3:21-22 NIV  When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened  (22)  and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

I can only assume that you believe that only one of the three (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) are God and the other two are something else?

Luk 23:34 NIV  Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Did Jesus Christ pray to Himself? Was He asking Himself to forgive?

"Tell me, are you a pastor?  From my experience with SDA pastors, I can only assume you are one."

Actually I am an engineer (concentration in civil with math and business minors).

"Our policy is, Do not make prominent the objectionable features of our faith, which strike most decidedly against the practices and customs of the people, until the Lord shall give the people a fair chance to know that we are believers in Christ, that we do believe in the divinity of Christ, and in His pre-existence.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 253."

This statement can easily be taken to mean about anything given the perspective of hidden motives.  In my opinion it simply means that we shouldn't push the "strange" doctrine on new Christians.  For example, for many Christians it could be "shocking" that the SDA church is opposed to drinking, smoking, premarital sex, etc... if those "don't" were our "sales pitch" why would anyone want to serve a God that was so judgemental?  Instead, show people who Christ is and when they are ready start showing them a better way of life. 

"Oh, and by the way...according to Deuteronomy 13, proving ONE teaching to be incorrect does make a person a false teacher or prophet.  In fact, in Israel, they were to be stoned to death."

Absolutely correct, the person IS a false teacher or prophet, BUT it doesn't say that all of their teachings are false.  The devil likes to disguise evil by mixing it in with the truth. 

[BLACKDOG]

Ok, I'm not going to start in the middle of the argument, don't wanna get in the way :   but I will state what I believe.

The trinity is essentially defined as 3 into one, theologically.  Essentially, God is 3 entities, and one entity at the same time.    confusing yes, seems crazy, yes, but thats the way it works, and the Bible backs it up.

Genesis 18:1-3
1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, [a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
      "Very well," they answered, "do as you say."

Isaiah 61
The Year of the LORD's Favor
    1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
       because the LORD has anointed me
       to preach good news to the poor.
       He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
       to proclaim freedom for the captives
       and release from darkness for the prisoners, [a]

2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
       and the day of vengeance of our God,
       to comfort all who mourn,

    3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
       to bestow on them a crown of beauty
       instead of ashes,
       the oil of gladness
       instead of mourning,
       and a garment of praise
       instead of a spirit of despair.
       They will be called oaks of righteousness,
       a planting of the LORD
       for the display of his splendor.

There is a lot more, but those two'll be good for now. 


you think my teacher'll understand if I tell him I was talking about God instead of writing my 10 page paper?? 

[NO4X]

Feel free to jump in anytime Blackdog.  We all value your input. 

"God is 3 entities, and one entity at the same time."

Exactly!  I like to say that there are three seperate manifestations of the One God.  It's the same thing, but I can just picture it better that way.

If I were to say that I thought she was a false prophet would you be willing to argue with the Bible alone rather than trying to discredit me by using her writing?

I would be willing to argue with the Bible alone on the following 3 conditions.

1.  You denounce Ellen G. White as a false prophet.

2.  You say that Jesus the Christ, is God the Father, come in the flesh, to redeem the lost as it is written in the scriptures.

3.  You agree that we will use the bible ALONE.  We will interpret the bible with the bible and the Holy Spirits guidance, and no other persons' interpretation.  (some items we will just have to agree to disagree, agreeably.)

And, I will agree to layoff Ellen White. 

[blackdiamond]

The trinity is essentially defined as 3 into one, theologically.  Essentially, God is 3 entities, and one entity at the same time.    confusing yes, seems crazy, yes, but thats the way it works, and the Bible backs it up.

I agree 100%

Ok, I'm not going to start in the middle of the argument, don't wanna get in the way :   but I will state what I believe.

The trinity is essentially defined as 3 into one, theologically.  Essentially, God is 3 entities, and one entity at the same time.    confusing yes, seems crazy, yes, but thats the way it works, and the Bible backs it up.

Genesis 18:1-3
1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

I might be missing something, but are you saying that the three men are all God since you are using this text as an example of the trinity?  I always thought the story continued into Chapter 19 making the group the Lord and two angels.

Gen 19:1 BBE  And at nightfall the two angels came to Sodom; and Lot was seated at the way into the town: and when he saw them he got up and came before them, falling down on his face to the earth.

Is there not a connection here?  It isn't very specific but the text never directly refers to Lord as plural in Chapter 18.   

[NO4X]

The bible implies all Three as the Lord.

Genesis 18:20-22  And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;  I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.  And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

The Lord said he was going to Sodom, and yet, he stayed and spoke with Abraham.

[BLACKDOG]

bd, I was also going to state that although not direct, the text indicates that all three were God

In the way that they are adressed by Abraham, and the way that they respond, their is a sense of equality among them, not a sense of subservience that angels would have toward God.  I neglected to post the rest of the interaction, but in Gen 18:5, and 18:9, the equaltiy in the 3 "mens" speech is evident IMO.

Genesis 18
The Three Visitors
    1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, [a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
      "Very well," they answered, "do as you say."
    6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread."

    7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

    9 "Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him.
      "There, in the tent," he said.

    10 Then the LORD [c] said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."
      Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master [d] is old, will I now have this pleasure?"

    13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?' 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."

    15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh."
      But he said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Abraham Pleads for Sodom
    16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

    20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

    22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

    26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

    27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
      "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

    29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
      He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

    30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
      He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

    31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
      He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

    32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
      He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

    33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

The bible implies all Three as the Lord.

Genesis 18:20-22  And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;  I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.  And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

The Lord said he was going to Sodom, and yet, he stayed and spoke with Abraham.

Good point NO4X

[blackdiamond]

"God is 3 entities, and one entity at the same time."

I like to think of Them as being sort of like the government: Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches.  Three very separate entities yet all one government.

I think that arguing about the specifics of the Trinity is nothing more than speculation as we simply cannot comprehend God.  I think the Bible is very clear about Them each having unique Identity.

I would be willing to argue with the Bible alone on the following 3 conditions.

1.  You denounce Ellen G. White as a false prophet.

2.  You say that Jesus the Christ, is God the Father, come in the flesh, to redeem the lost as it is written in the scriptures.

3.  You agree that we will use the bible ALONE.  We will interpret the bible with the bible and the Holy Spirits guidance, and no other persons' interpretation.  (some items we will just have to agree to disagree, agreeably.)

And, I will agree to layoff Ellen White. 

1. Please go back through the various threads on the board and see how many times I have quoted Ellen White as a basis for my beliefs and you will find there are very few if any.  I quoted her only when someone else brought her up.  I don't apologize for my SDA upbringing so I'm sure I have some Ellen White ingrained in me; however, I have just recently finished reading my 1st book of hers and am only about 1/3 of the way through the second one so I really can't tell you exactly what she believes because I have not actually hardly any of her many writings.  At the present time I am not 100% convinced that she was a prophet and look at her as I would several other Christian writers.

2. If Jesus Christ is God the Father, then who said, "This is my beloved Son?"  This story shows three distince individuals.  Did God the Father split like an earth worm to form Christ the Son?  Was there a time when there was only God the Father (Oneity) then He got bored and became two (twoity) and then became three (trinity)?  Genesis is fairly obvious about the Spirits existence implying two and Christ made three.

3. See above

Why should there ever be conditions for using the Bible alone?

Genesis 18
    22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"
 

I am actually changing what I had planned to post based on my last reading of Chapter 18.  Verse 22 has the two men turning away and went toward [to?] Sodom and left [remained] Abraham before the Lord.  This implies that the other two were not the Lord.  As I have posted previously, in Chapter 19 two angels arrive in Sodom.  Is there a connection here?

NO4X - It seems that from your point of view if all three of them were the Lord, what would be the logical reason for the One Lord to manifest Himself in the form of three men?  Is there anything added in the story by there being more than one?  The majority of the conversation seems rather singular in nature.

Time for bed   

[NO4X]

Nice.

[blackdiamond]

Nice.

Is this agreement on something or anything or sarcasm?  Not even a "smiley guy" to provide a hint 

Betwen the caffine still in my system from this morning and the wheel turning in my head  there isn't much sleeping going on.

As a side note from my earlier post:

Gen 18:17 BBE  And the Lord said, Am I to keep back from Abraham the knowledge of what I do;

Gen 18:21 BBE  I will go down now, and see if their acts are as bad as they seem from the outcry which has come to me; and if they are not, I will see.

Don't these two texts seem to indicate first person [singular]?

Here is a slightly different angle on the current subject, I posted various versions for comparison.

Joh 1:18 KJVR  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 1:18 BBE  No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is.

Joh 1:18 NIV  No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[5][6]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Joh 1:18 MSG  No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day.

It seems fairly clear that the word "God" in these texts refers to the Father and the Father is only revealed, or declared, to mankind by the Son, Jesus Christ.  This give us further insight into the following text:

Mat 3:16-17 BBE  And Jesus, having been given baptism, straight away went up from the water; and, the heavens opening, he saw the Spirit of God coming down on him as a dove;  (17)  And a voice came out of heaven, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

Mankind has seen the Spirit in the form of a dove and the Son as Jesus Christ, but the Father is always a voice from heaven.

Does this make sense to everyone/anyone?