What do you think of Christ?

[BLACKDOG]

Is this agreement on something or anything or sarcasm?  Not even a "smiley guy" to provide a hint 

Betwen the caffine still in my system from this morning and the wheel turning in my head  there isn't much sleeping going on.

As a side note from my earlier post:

Gen 18:17 BBE  And the Lord said, Am I to keep back from Abraham the knowledge of what I do;

Gen 18:21 BBE  I will go down now, and see if their acts are as bad as they seem from the outcry which has come to me; and if they are not, I will see.

Don't these two texts seem to indicate first person [singular]?

To be continued once again...give me a moment
 

it does seem singular, that is what is so cunfusing about the Trinity.  They're different but the same  

because in 21, "I" is going down to Sodom and Gommorah, but in 22, the Lord stayed with Abraham Who's I, and who's the Lord?  and why does "He" say "I" when two went to sodom and Gommorah?

[blackdiamond]

it does seem singular, that is what is so cunfusing about the Trinity.  They're different but the same  

because in 21, "I" is going down to Sodom and Gommorah, but in 22, the Lord stayed with Abraham Who's I, and who's the Lord?  and why does "He" say "I" when two went to sodom and Gommorah?

Genesis 18:22 (?) has the two men leaving for Sodom while the Lord stays with Abraham to discuss how many people it would take to save the city.  In Chapter 19, the two angels go to Sodom and lead Lot out of the city and later in the chapter the Lord rained down fire and brimstone on the city.  The Lord went to Sodom, but it wasn't specifically at the same time as the two men/angels.

The group of three that arrived together to visit with Abraham, split into two groups (two men/angels and one Lord) to go to Sodom.

If no man has seen God [Father] who would the third man be assuming one was the Son and the other was the Spirit?

[BLACKDOG]

Genesis 18:22 (?) has the two men leaving for Sodom while the Lord stays with Abraham to discuss how many people it would take to save the city.  In Chapter 19, the two angels go to Sodom and lead Lot out of the city and later in the chapter the Lord rained down fire and brimstone on the city.  The Lord went to Sodom, but it wasn't specifically at the same time as the two men/angels.
who says?
as you've already mentioned, this whole section is very vague, on who is who. 
The group of three that arrived together to visit with Abraham, split into two groups (two men/angels and one Lord) to go to Sodom.

If no man has seen God [Father] who would the third man be assuming one was the Son and the other was the Spirit?

[blackdiamond]

"who says?
as you've already mentioned, this whole section is very vague, on who is who."

Abraham first sees the three men.
Gen 18:2 NIV  Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

Abraham walked with the three men part way to Sodom.
Gen 18:16 NIV  When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.

The men walk away leaving Abraham standing before the Lord.
Gen 18:22 NIV  The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [5]
There were three men to start, the Lord stayed and the men [plural - two or more] went toward Sodom.
3-1=2

The Lord and Abraham finish their conversation and the Lord left.
Gen 18:33 NIV  When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

The two angles [men from Chapter 8] arrive in Sodom.
Gen 19:1 NIV  The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

The two angles from 19:1 are referred to as men.
Gen 19:10 NIV  But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.

The Lord is about to destroy the city!
Gen 19:14 NIV  So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [1] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

The Lord is merciful by having the men "drag" Lot and family out of the city.
Gen 19:16 NIV  When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them.

The Lord is now speaking to Lot.
Gen 19:21-22 NIV  He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of.  (22)  But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. [6])

The Lord destroy Sodom
Gen 19:24 NIV  Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens.

It is quite clear that the group starts as three, splits into the two men/angels and the Lord & then they are all back together as Lot is taken out of the city.  There are several specific references to the "two men" that are discinctly separate from any reference to the Lord.  It seems fairly clear to me.

[chim]

I am totally freaked out! Because the title "God" is given to Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. And then I see that when speaking of who raised Christ from the dead, it says Christ raised himself, it says the Father raised him, and then it says the Holy Spirit raised him, but to top it off it says that God raised him.... now who was it, are all three contradicting each other.. are all three seperate gods trying to take credit for it.. or is it like Isaiah 43:10 where it says there is only one God...

I think when we were listing the "omni's" we forgot omnipresent... meaning the Lord is so powerful he can be everywhere at once...  of course in our finite minds we see this as inconceivable.. but I take comfort in knowing the mind of God is infinite and that he has ALL power!! Thats the kind of God I want!

Also, when quoting scripture BlackDiamond, why do you use so many versions of the Bible, is it because you are trying to find the best translation that fits your point? Just wondering...

[NO4X]

Why should there ever be conditions for using the Bible alone?
 

I cannot argue with the bible alone, because you cannot understand the bible.

Would you say that you WANT God's Spirit in your heart?

[blackdiamond]

Also, when quoting scripture BlackDiamond, why do you use so many versions of the Bible, is it because you are trying to find the best translation that fits your point? Just wondering...

I am using e-sword because it makes it easy to search and compare different versions.  It only makes sense to me to post the one that most clearly shows my point.  The blessing in having various translations and paraphrases is that it shows the same thing in different ways.  Sometimes I will post the same text in different versions to show that they agree and I didn't simply find an obscure translation.  I usually use the BBE (Bible in Basic English) in e-sword for me but will sometimes post in a better known translation.  From the research that I have done, the NIV is one of the more accurrate Translations.  What do you think of the Message?

I cannot argue with the bible alone, because you cannot understand the bible.

Would you say that you WANT God's Spirit in your heart?

I would say that I HAVE God's Spirit in my heart, but that doesn't mean that He cannot be in yours as well simple because we have differences.

If you can't argue using the Bible because "I don't understand it" I can only assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you can't understand it in your opinion.  It seems that if you were "comfortable" with you decision to leave the SDA church you wouldn't feel the need to keep proving to yourself that the church is incorrect in its beliefs.  The saying, "Me thinks he protesteth too much," comes to mind.

I don't mind defending my beliefs, but what "bugs" me is having you, or anyone else, presume to know what I believe based on your perception of what the SDA church believes.  Please don't project your interpretation of what the SDA church, or Ellen White, believes on me personally.

Maybe we need to start with something simple.

How about we agree that Genesis 1:1 begins, "In the beginning..." 

[chim]

The thing is BlackDiamond, I am the same way when it comes to Mormons, because I know that the Jesus they believe in is different than the Jesus of the Bible, and I care about my own people too much to see them spend an eternity in Hell... Thats why I continually debate and discuss with them. Because it says in the Bible they have been spiritually blinded. And looks to me that NO4X is doing the same thing. He loves his people and doesnt want to see them going to Hell also, because the Jesus they are putting their trust in is a different Jesus than the Bible....  its all about Jesus, who He really is, and what he did... Please notice that EVERY SINGLE CULT out there will make Jesus Christ less than he is... and making him a god among many gods, and not GOD HIMSELF is doing that exact thing!

[NO4X]

I would say that I HAVE God's Spirit in my heart,

O.k. o.k., but will you say you WANT Him there?

but that doesn't mean that He cannot be in yours as well simple because we have differences.

Yes, that is exactly what it means.  You see, no scripture is for private interpretation.  If we both have the Spirit, we will agree with the Bible's message.

I can say "Jesus, the Christ, is the Eternal God, the Father, born in the Flesh.  And His death and ressurection is my one and only way to salvation, as it is written in the scripture."

No spirit of anti-christ in me.

If you can't argue using the Bible because "I don't understand it" I can only assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you can't understand it in your opinion.

No, according to the bible, God's Word, anyone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit in his heart CANNOT understand it.

[blackdiamond]

O.k. o.k., but will you say you WANT Him there?

No spirit of anti-christ in me.

The Spirit won't be in my heart unless I invite Him to be there.  So the answer is YES.

At this point I'm not even sure what to do with the 2nd statement above.  It seems that the only logical conclusion is to assume that based on the fact that I disagree with you I must be filled with the devil, ouch 

Now, how about you actually answer some of my questions and take a short break from being on the attack.  I will make them very specific and direct.

Question 1: In John 1:18 is says, "No man hath seen God at any time."  If there is no individuality in God plural, then who is it that we have not seen?  If you believe in the incarnation of Christ and that Jesus Christ is the same entity as the Father (they are all one and the same), then the only conclusion is that man has indeed seen God.  One translation/paraphrase says that we have not even seen a "glimpse" of God, if Jesus Christ is the same as God the Father the it would seem that we have seen a "glimpse" of God.

Question 2: Did God the Father exist in heaven while Christ was on earth?

Joh 1:18 KJVR  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Question 3: Who are all the characters in Luke 3:21-22 and how do they relate?

Luk 3:21-22 NIV  When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened  (22)  and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

[blackdiamond]

Please notice that EVERY SINGLE CULT out there will make Jesus Christ less than he is... and making him a god among many gods, and not GOD HIMSELF is doing that exact thing!

Have you completely missed that I believe that God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are all together ONE God.  There is no rank among Them, but the Bible clearly describes them each performing different functions and manifesting Themselves to mankind in different, yet consistent, ways.

Why is it that you guys can't fathom the concept that there doesn't have to be an "order of importance"?  They are all equal.

Trying to put God into the box of mankinds ability to understand is an impossible task.

How about this as an example: God transends us, we cannot fully understand Him.  Consider an ant living in a box with a lid on it with three holes in the lid.  If I stick my thumb, ring finger and index finger through the holes, the ant would have no ability to know if the two fingers and one thumb are all distinctly separate or all part of one hand.  There would be no way for the ant to know for sure unless the lid was removed.

[NO4X]

You ask these questions, because you cannot understand.  Only the Spirit can teach you them.

Sounds supernatural, because it is.

[NO4X]

1Jo 5:6   This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

[NO4X]

1Jo 5:20   And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[blackdiamond]

You ask these questions, because you cannot understand.  Only the Spirit can teach you them.

Sounds supernatural, because it is.

Is it too much to ask to request that you answer a specific question?  

Maybe your explaination with benefit some of the other people such as chim or BLACKDOG.

If you have no logical answer for them, then all you have to do is say it.

It seems that everytime the discussion gets "heated" you start tossing out blanket statements like the one above and run for cover.  If you can't post a logical answer using the Bible...

[NO4X]

I can provide logical answers to all your questions.  The problem is, logic doesn't enter into it.  We can only understand with the Spirit.  And you don't have it according to 1 corinthians 12:3 and 1 john 4.

Nothing I post can benefit Chim and Blackdog.  Only Christ benefits them.

[NO4X]

2Jo 1:6      And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jo 1:7      For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8      Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9      Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10      If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11      For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[chim]

I will respond straight up to the questions.

1. No one has seen the Father at anytime... just like the Bible states. But Christ come in the flesh is the image of the invisible God. No one can look upon God and live. Is there any reference to anyone seeing the "Father". You will not find one.

2. God the Father did exist in Heaven while Christ was here.

3. Is the perfect picture of the trinity...

Now what NO4X is getting at is, by using the test in the Bible about which spirits are of God and which arent, you do not have the spirit of God. Because all who have the Spirit of God can confess that Jesus is God Himself come in the Flesh. And since you dont have this Spirit it is impossible for you to comprehend that they are all the ONE same God manifested in three persons, not three gods, making one godhead. If you had the Spirit this would be comprehensive to you. Like we said before, if God is all powerful, all present, all knowing, then its makes sense that only He could accomplish this. We may never FULLY understand this because His ways and thoughts are above ours, and our understanding is limited.

But by saying that all three are a God making it plural is in direct opposite of what the Bible teaches about God. The jews understood this, thats why they wanted to stone Christ! They didnt want to stone him for being A god, but being THE God.

[NO4X]

This might illustrate it better.

One God was potent enough to create the all; why, then, other gods? They are superfluous.

One God alone had not the power; then God was limited in power, and a being so limited is not God, but presupposes another being through which He Himself was called into existence.

The unity of God is involved in the very conception of Him. If there were more gods than one, this dilemma would be presented:

These many gods are of one essence; then, according to the law of absolute identity, they are identical and therefore only one. Or

these gods are differentiated by differences of essential qualities: then they are not gods; for God, to be God, must be absolute and simple (non-composite) being.

God connotes being without accidence, i.e., qualities not involved in being. Plurality is quantity, and, therefore, accidence. Hence plurality may not be predicated of God.

[BLACKDOG]

MY TURN!!!!
1. NO4X, Chim, I don't think it is right to tell bd that he does not have the Holy Spirit in him!  THat is not for us to decide, that is between bd and God.  bd has already stated that he beleives in the trinity, he actually states that several times.

Have you completely missed that I believe that God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are all together ONE God.  There is no rank among Them, but the Bible clearly describes them each performing different functions and manifesting Themselves to mankind in different, yet consistent, ways.

Why is it that you guys can't fathom the concept that there doesn't have to be an "order of importance"?  They are all equal.

Trying to put God into the box of mankinds ability to understand is an impossible task.

I'm not sure how he can be more blatant in his statement. 

I can provide logical answers to all your questions.  The problem is, logic doesn't enter into it.  We can only understand with the Spirit.  And you don't have it according to 1 corinthians 12:3 and 1 john 4.

Nothing I post can benefit Chim and Blackdog.  Only Christ benefits them.

NO4X, here are the verses you referenced, from the NIV
Passage 1 Corinthians 12:3:
3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.


1 John 4
Test the Spirits
    1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I'm not sure how you can say that bd doesn't have the spirit, since both passages seem to reference denying Christ as not having the Spirit, and bd has never denied Christ. 

I know we all have our different doctrinal beliefs, and so far we've done well at putting th doctrine aside and speaking directly out of the Bible.  I do beleive we should be able to support our debates and discussions using only the Bible, as NO4X has said, but I also don't think we should take it upon ourselves to judge on whether or not each other has the spirit.  We need to remember that if we are Christians, followers of Jesus Christ, as I beleive all 4 of us in these recent discussions our, that we are on the same side, and it is not our duty to tear each other down, but to support each other.  bd and I have our differences, but I have yet to see a difference in our beliefs concerning salvation.  I think we do have some doctrinal beleifs, but they are all non-salvation issues IMO. 

In order to see where everyone is at, I'd like to have everyone state their core beliefs, so we can see how they match up.

I believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, the one and only Son of God, Perfect in everyway, Came to earth to die for all Man's sins, and sits In heaven as an advocate for those who know him.  The only way to know him is to confess your sins, and confess that he is Lord, and that there is no other way to Heaven but through Him.  beleive that that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are 3 different entities, and the same.  God is omnipresent and omnipotent.


next?

[chim]

Not to be an instigator, and I do agree with you blackdog that only the Lord knows... But I could give that exact same testimony you just did as a mormon, yet in my own head knowing my mormon doctrine and apply different meanings to all the above terminology mentioned.

The main point about the test, and you can ask any real Christian pastor this, is that its not Just addmiting Jesus Christ is Lord but understand who this "Jesus Christ" was. He was called God, he claimed to be God... not just a god. But THE god... thats why its so important..  Blackdiamond is saying he was one of the three gods in the godhead, although equal in power.... if he can just say that Jesus Christ is THE GOD come in the flesh, then there is no issue...   But as with my ex-wife who is a mormon, she can not do this... she will straight up deny that they are the same and even use the same passages like the Luke passage to say they are three seperate Gods.

What a mess!!!!!

I got nothing but Love for you guys..  please note that I have no feelings of hostility or contention... just good debate to me

[BLACKDOG]

Not to be an instigator, and I do agree with you blackdog that only the Lord knows... But I could give that exact same testimony you just did as a mormon, yet in my own head knowing my mormon doctrine and apply different meanings to all the above terminology mentioned.
I guess we'll never know for sure then, huh? 
The main point about the test, and you can ask any real Christian pastor this, is that its not Just addmiting Jesus Christ is Lord but understand who this "Jesus Christ" was. He was called God, he claimed to be God... not just a god. But THE god... thats why its so important..  Blackdiamond is saying he was one of the three gods in the godhead, although equal in power.... if he can just say that Jesus Christ is THE GOD come in the flesh, then there is no issue...   But as with my ex-wife who is a mormon, she can not do this... she will straight up deny that they are the same and even use the same passages like the Luke passage to say they are three seperate Gods.
[color=redMan, I wuold have never guessed thats all you wanted bd to concede.  He may disagree or not, I don't know, but you are right, that is the key. Christ is GOD.  I'm not so sure bd knew what you were trying to get him to say, I sure didn't [/color]

What a mess!!!!!

I got nothing but Love for you guys..  please note that I have no feelings of hostility or contention... just good debate to me
Same here, but It really shouldn't come down to "Christians" accusing each other of not being "Christian" unless we've got grounds to do so.  I think you'll agree with me here, that we've got bigger fish to fry

[NO4X]

I have had mormon missionaries give me the same example about the three branches of government, and jehovah's witnesses give me the same explanation for Jesus being the everlasting father.  Word for Word.

The bible is very specific about testing the spirits, and through these tests, we do know for sure.

It's all about Christ.  And as Chim mentioned, any christian pastor will tell you that Christ is a title for God, The Creator of the universe, the Alpha and the Omega, the Great I AM, in the flesh.  That's what was prophesied, and that's who He is.

And, I have no bigger fish to fry than to tell people the truth.

[BLACKDOG]

I have had mormon missionaries give me the same example about the three branches of government, and jehovah's witnesses give me the same explanation for Jesus being the everlasting father.  Word for Word.
Yeah, I've heard it too, I've heard it from mormons, jehovah's witnesses, whoever   they'll say whatever they can to convince you.  I've had mormons flat out lie to my face about thier beliefs to me, even with me standing there knowing they're wrong, and using they're book of mormon to tell them so. The devil uses anything he can to confuse and twist peoples minds.

The bible is very specific about testing the spirits, and through these tests, we do know for sure.
Yes it is, but as I said before, bd never denied Christ being Lord

It's all about Christ.  And as Chim mentioned, any christian pastor will tell you that Christ is a title for God, The Creator of the universe, the Alpha and the Omega, the Great I AM, in the flesh.  That's what was prophesied, and that's who He is.
I don't think any of us need a Christian pastor to tell us that, its in the Bible

And, I have no bigger fish to fry than to tell people the truth.

[blackdiamond]

With all the posts that are new I was expecting to have a lot more typing to do, but I think I can keep this fairly short and to the point.

Thanks to Chim for answering my question directly.  It seems that NO4X feels that nothing he could post can benefit any of us so I'm unclear what his motivation is.

Thanks to BlackDog for pointing out that I have never once denied that Christ is Lord.

1Jo 4:2-3 NIV  This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,  (3)  but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2Jo 1:7 NIV  Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

I absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

Now let me try once again to explain the Trinity.  The Trinity (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) are the one and only true God.  Can I explain how "3 yet 1" works? N0, it is far beyond human comprehension.  Since the Bible doesn't provide any physical attributes for the Trinity, other than Christ on earth, we really can't form a strong conclusion about what God is.  The Bible does show God being manifested to us in three distinct ways (Father, Son & Holy Spirit).  Is it possible that these manifestations are simply God's way of "explaining" Himself to us in human terms that we can wrap our minds around?  Absolutely.  The Bible tells us who God is, but not really what He is.

I agree that it seems like a contradiction to have God plural be the One true God, but who am I to put God in a box within my ability to understand.  He transcends us. 

Luke 3-21-22 give evidence of there being three distinct manifestations of God.

Luk 3:21-22 NIV  When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened  (22)  and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

John 1:18 tells us that there no one has ever seen God but then says that God The One And Only has made him known.

Joh 1:18 NIV  No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[5][6]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

I just don't see how we can immediately toss out the idea of God being plural or having some plural attributes.  The Bible refers to God in plural form many times.

[NO4X]

How about this as an example: God transends us, we cannot fully understand Him.  Consider an ant living in a box with a lid on it with three holes in the lid.  If I stick my thumb, ring finger and index finger through the holes, the ant would have no ability to know if the two fingers and one thumb are all distinctly separate or all part of one hand.  There would be no way for the ant to know for sure unless the lid was removed.

This is an excellent illustration of God.  We are seeing 3 different manifestations of the same individual.  The finger is not the individual, nor is the hand, but the person is the individual.  Now imagine, in addition to the 3 fingers, you stick 2 toes in the box from the bottom, and then stick your nose in the box from the side.  They are all one person, they are just different manifestations of the same person.  And all the ant knows of the person is what he sees.

This is how God can be referred to as plural.  All His manifestations are one God. 
The greatest commandment is Deut 6:4__"Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord, our Elohim (plural), is one Jehovah (singular).

[NO4X]

Question 1: In John 1:18 is says, "No man hath seen God at any time."  If there is no individuality in God plural, then who is it that we have not seen?  If you believe in the incarnation of Christ and that Jesus Christ is the same entity as the Father (they are all one and the same), then the only conclusion is that man has indeed seen God.  One translation/paraphrase says that we have not even seen a "glimpse" of God, if Jesus Christ is the same as God the Father the it would seem that we have seen a "glimpse" of God.

Question 2: Did God the Father exist in heaven while Christ was on earth?

Question 3: Who are all the characters in Luke 3:21-22 and how do they relate?

1.  If you refer back to your box example, you have not seen the Individual outside the box.  Christ is the Father.  However, His Glory is "veiled" in His humanity.  The temple was representative of this.  There was an 18" thick "veil" or curtain, seperating the Most Holy Place from the people.  If anyone went inside the veil, they died. Only the high priest could do this once a year on the day of atonement.

When The God, came to this earth as the Christ, Christ's body became this veil.  When He died, the veil in the temple ripped, opening the way to God.  Now, He is in each and every person who confesses Who Christ is, and what He's done.

2.  Yes, God is omnipresent.  Refer again to the ant in the box example.  God was in the box, and out of the box at the same time.

3.  All the characters in Luke 3:21-22 are different manifestations of the One God, that was outside the box, but all the ants could hear His voice.

[blackdiamond]

This is an excellent illustration of God.  We are seeing 3 different manifestations of the same individual.  The finger is not the individual, nor is the hand, but the person is the individual.  Now imagine, in addition to the 3 fingers, you stick 2 toes in the box from the bottom, and then stick your nose in the box from the side.  They are all one person, they are just different manifestations of the same person.  And all the ant knows of the person is what he sees.

This is how God can be referred to as plural.  All His manifestations are one God. 
The greatest commandment is Deut 6:4__"Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord, our Elohim (plural), is one Jehovah (singular).

It seems that once we get past the symantics involved with the details of "3 yet 1" we have some common ground.

I just went thru John 1:1-18 and underlined some key indicators of God plural and also added comments in brackets to keep the details clear.  Let me know what you think.

Joh 1:1-18 NIV  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(2)  He [the Word] was with God in the beginning.

(3)  Through him [the Word] all things were made [created]; without him [the Word] nothing was made [created] that has been made [created].

(4)  In him [the Word] was life [incarnation], and that life was the light of men.

(5)  The light [the Word] shines in the darkness [world], but the darkness [world] has not understood it.

(6)  There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.

(7)  He [John] came as a witness to testify concerning that light [the Word], so that through him [the Word] all men might believe.

(8)  He [John] himself was not the light [the Word]; he [John] came only as a witness to the light [the Word].

(9)  The true light [the Word] that gives light to every man was coming into the world [incarnation].

(10)  He [the Word] was in the world, and though the world was made [created] through him [the Word], the world did not recognize him [the Word or Jesus Christ].

(11)  He [the Word] came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him [the Word].

(12)  Yet to all who received him [the Word], to those who believed in his name [the Word or Jesus Christ], he gave the right to become children of God—

(13)  children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

(14)  The Word [Jesus Christ] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his [Jesus Christ] glory, the glory of the One and Only [the Word or Jesus Christ], who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(15)  John testifies concerning him [the Word]. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "

(16)  From the fullness of his [the Word or Jesus Christ] grace we have all received one blessing after another.

(17)  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(18)  No one has ever seen God [some part, or manifestation, of God other than the Word], but God the One and Only [the Word or Jesus Christ], who is at the Father's side, has made him [the Father] known.

[blackdiamond]

Christ is the Father. 

Let me summarize what I think you are saying...

The Son of God is Jesus Christ who is also God the Father who is also the Holy Spirit. 

This is starting to remind me of the country song [for the record I don't like country music] I'm My Own Grandpa! 

[NO4X]

As for my motivation, it is to hear you, or anyone else on this board state that Jesus Christ, is God the Father come in human form to redeem mankind as it is written in the bible.

You see, everyone on this board, who has stood for what the bible literally teaches, has lost family and friends.  I have nothing to proove, nor do I hold any vendetta against the SDA people.  Jesus said we wouldn't gain friends.  I simply want to gain new family members, to replace the ones I lost.

Blackdiamond, you may hate me, you may think I'm a *&!@$ (insert your choice).  I just want you to know, that the feeling is not mutual.  You can think anything you want of me, as long as you make that statement above.  Family members don't always like each other, but they do care.