What do you think of Christ?

[blackdiamond]

I relate christ and the bilble to that of a great story told along time ago when word of mouth was the ONLY way things traveled... the story was eventually written down and became the bilble we know today... I'm not saying that there is no god... but I do not know... and in my mind there is no proof one way or another... for me a book and billion+ people aren't enough to convince me... I need science... as for Christ... he was a man long ago... probably a great guy that was well ahead of his time in terms of his views of mankind... he was put to the cross and died there... nothing more...

I think the bilbe and religion is needed though... people need to think that there is something is in control... that they're not responsible for all their actions... and that there is a reason for the bad things that happen... it makes it easier to swallow... I do this myself... I chalk it up to Karma... though I find myself only doing this when something bad happens... so do I really believe in karma?  no not really... but it makes it easier to swallow the hardship... that it was out of my hands... anyways... that's my veiw... [flame retardant suit]

If you think you need a flame retardant suit on this thread, you have not read much of the religion threads on this board.  It is amazing how smoothly the discussion has gone considering the strong difference in opinions.

[whiteman]

OK I'll, jump in on this.  My   .  

I grew up in a home based on reading and believing the Bible, Gods holy word.  When you read the Bible or even believe the Bible that does not make you a Christan.  You have to live the Bible, obey Gods word, and worship him.

No one is perfect, and i am certainly not,  I have fallen short of the glory of God and have not been man enough to ask for forgiveness.  

I believe in Christ and the Bible, I know they are real I have experienced Gods power, but like most do not live by the Bible or serve the Lord in ways I should.  

Christ is real!  No doubt about it.  
 
I cant explain to people how God works or why things happen the way they do.  
But I will Tell you this.
If you were to ask me to tell you every single thing in a car that moves
when you turn it on, and I mean every thing.
From every part in the trans, to every part in the motor
To the electrical current to fuel system, air flow, Throttle Body.

I couldn't tell ya, but it works.
I cant explain why and how God works but he does.
And it is amazing too see it.

There now every body knows where i stand, and i know where most of you stand. 
Respect each other and there beliefs, and we will be just fine.

[blackdiamond]

OK I'll, jump in on this.  My   .  

I grew up in a home based on reading and believing the Bible, Gods holy word.  When you read the Bible or even believe the Bible that does not make you a Christan.  You have to live the Bible, obey Gods word, and worship him.

No one is perfect, and i am certainly not,  I have fallen short of the glory of God and have not been man enough to ask for forgiveness.  

I believe in Christ and the Bible, I know they are real I have experienced Gods power, but like most do not live by the Bible or serve the Lord in ways I should.  

Christ is real!  No doubt about it.  
 
I cant explain to people how God works or why things happen the way they do.  
But I will Tell you this.
If you were to ask me to tell you every single thing in a car that moves
when you turn it on, and I mean every thing.
From every part in the trans, to every part in the motor
To the electrical current to fuel system, air flow, Throttle Body.

I couldn't tell ya, but it works.
I cant explain why and how God works but he does.
And it is amazing too see it.

There now every body knows where i stand, and i know where most of you stand. 
Respect each other and there beliefs, and we will be just fine.

[Ebbs15]

If you think you need a flame retardant suit on this thread, you have not read much of the religion threads on this board. It is amazing how smoothly the discussion has gone considering the strong difference in opinions.

naw I was just being sarcastic... believe it or not I read every word of this thread... if I'm gonna speak my opinion I owe it to those that stated their's to atleast hear them!...

that being said... it's refreshing to see people discuss a topic as touchy as this one and not have it get into a "internet pissing match"

what ever your beliefs... Ya'll get a    from me

[blackdiamond]

I have finished my study of salvation which is my explaination of the 2nd "false doctrine."

"Christ's sacrifice covers every sin that we could ever commit, IF we continually choose to accept His gift of grace.  Christ will never retract the offer of Salvation, but it is up to us to continually choose to accept the gift."

Now we are back to the once saved always saved question.  This is EGW muddying up the water.

Mar 16:15&16  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It doesn't say he that believeth and is baptized every day shall be saved. 

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Notice, once you believe you possess it.  It doesn't say once you believe you can have it.

Let's look into what eternal means, in merriam-webster:

eter•nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS

Definition #4 sums it up...existing at all times.  Now answer this...How is something eternal if it can be lost?

The Experience of Salvation - Post 1 of 4

Christians cannot be static.  If the Spirit of Christ reigns within they are in the process of change.

Romans 8:1-11 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.  Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Because of Christ's sacrifice we are not subject to the law of sin and death (i.e the wages of sin is death), not from the law.  If Christ is in us we will be spiritually minded.

2 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart.  Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day." 

2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Throughout Scripture the descriptions of the believer's experience – salvation, justification, sanctification, purification, and redemption are spoken of as (1) already accomplished, (2) presently being realized, and (3) to be realized in the future.

The experience of Salvation and the Past:

Trying, apart from Christ, to develop the good in oneself is counterproductive.  The experience of salvation that reaches deep into the soul comes from God alone.

John 3:4-6 "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'  Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old?  Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?  Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The experience of salvation involves repentance, confession, forgiveness, justification, and sanctification.

Repentance (remorse for past conduct or sin):

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth.  It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.  And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

Acts 2:37-38 "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?'  Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord..."

The word repentance is a translation of the Hebrew nacham, "to be sorry," "to repent."  The Greek equivalent metanoeo, means "to change one's mind," "to repent."  Genuine repentance results in a radical change in attitude toward God and sin.

Proverbs 28:13 "He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy."

Psalms 51:1-3,10 "Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your loving kindness; According to the multitudes of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions.  Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin.  For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me...Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me."

Romans 2:4 "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

(continued)

[blackdiamond]

(continued) Post 2 of 4

The Holy Spirit draws the sinner to Christ in order that he may find repentance, this heartfelt sorrow for sin.

Motivation for repentance:

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

In Christ the repentant sinner is not only pardoned but acquitted – declared righteous!

Romans 5:6-10 "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die, yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.  For if when we were enemies we were reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Justification (to declare free of blame / to free of the guilt and penalty of sin):

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of your works, lest anyone should boast."

The term "justification" is a translation of the Greek dikaioma, meaning "righteous requirement, deed," "judicial sentence," and dikaiosis signifying, "vindication," "acquittal."  The related verb dikaioo, meaning " be aquited, "be set free."  In general, justification as used theologically, is "the divine act by which God declares a penitent sinner righteous.  Justification is the opposite of condemnation.

Romans 5:16 "And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned.  For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification."

Romans 3:24 "...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus..."

Titus 3:5 "...not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit..."

The role of faith and works:

Many wrongly believe that their standing before God depends on their good or bad deeds.

Philippians 3:8-9 "Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

Romans 4:3-4 "For what does the Scripture say?  'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'  Now to him who works the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."

What kind of faith did Abraham have?  Scriptures reveal that "by faith Abraham obeyed" when God called him.

Hebrews 11:8-10 "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.  And he went out, not knowing where he was going.  By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Abraham was a great example of "in the world, but not of the world."

The apostle James warned about another incorrect understanding of justification by faith; that one can be justified by faith without manifesting corresponding works.  He showed that genuine faith cannot exist without works.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the alter?  Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

James 2:17 "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Abraham's experience revealed that works are the evidence of a true relationship with God.  The faith that leads to justification is therefore, a living faith that works.

James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Neither works nor a dead faith lead to justification.

Galatians 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."

The experience of justification:

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

As repentant sinners, we experience full and complete pardon.  We are reconciled to God!

Zechariah 3:2 "Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan!  The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!  Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.  Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, 'Take away the filthy garments from him.'  And to him He said, 'See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.'"

This exchange of cloths, this divine, saving transaction is the Biblical doctrine of justification.  The justified believer has experienced forgiveness and been purified of his sins.

Results (What are the results of repentance and justification?):

(1) Sanctification

The word "sanctification" is a translation of the Greek hagiasmos, meaning "holiness" or "consecration" from hagiazo, "to make holy" or "to set apart."  The Hebrew equivalent is qadash, "to separate from common use."  True repentance and justification lead to sanctification.  Justification and sanctification are closely related, distinct but never separate.  They designate two phases of salvation: Justification is what God does FOR us, while sanctification is what God does IN us.  Both are solely due to Christ's grace and righteousness.

The three phases of sanctification the Bible presents are: (1) an accomplished act in the believer's past; (2) a process in the believer's present experience; (3) and the final result that the believer experiences at Christ's return.

1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you.  But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Romans 1:7 "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Philippians 1:1 "Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

Believers are called saints for they are in Christ.

(continued)

[blackdiamond]

(continued) Post 3 of 4

Titus 3:5 "...not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,.."

(2) Adoption into God's family:

Romans 8:15-17 "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.'  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

(3) Assurance of Salvation

Justification brings also the assurance of the believer's acceptance.  It brings the joy of being reunited with God now.  No matter how sinful one's past life, God pardons all sins and we are no longer under the condemnation and curse of the law.

Ephesians 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace..."

(4) The beginning of a new and victorious life.

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.  In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

His overcoming of the world guarantees our deliverance from slavery of sin.  Christ begins transforming us into the image of God.

(5) The gift of eternal life.

1 John 5:12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

The experience of Salvation and the Present:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

A Life of Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 "For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.  Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit."

Ephesians 3:14-19 "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height – to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

As a new creation, believers have new responsibilities.

Romans 6:19 "I speak in human terms because of the weakness of the flesh.  For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

Galatians 5:25 "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Romans 8:6-8 "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The highest goal of a Spirit filled life is to please God.

The Internal Change:

At the Second Advent we will be changed physically; however our characters must undergo transformation in preparation for the Second Advent.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Romans 12:2 "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

The key is renewing of the mind.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

God desires to live within His people.  The Creator's indwelling daily revives the believers inwardly, renewing their minds.

2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?  For you are the temple of the living God.  As God has said, 'I will dwell in them And walk among them.  I will be their God, And they shall be My people.'"

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, it is not longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me."

2 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart.  Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day."

2 Peter 1:2-7 "Grace and peace by multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that though these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

What transforms humans into the image of their Creator?

Romans 13:14 "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts."

Titus 3:5-6 "...not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

1 John 4:12 "No one has seen God at any time.  If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us."

Sanctification is progressive.  By prayer and study of the Word we constantly grow in fellowship with God.  When we "digest" the bread of life, we become transformed into the likeness of Christ.

The Holy Spirit beings to believers a decided change of outlook.  His fruits, love, joy, peace, longsuffering kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness and self-control now constitute their lifestyle – even though they remain corruptible mortals until Christ's return.

(continued)

[blackdiamond]

(continued) Post 4 of 4

Romans 6:17-18 "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine with which you were delivered.  And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

2 Corinthians 10:4-6 "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for puling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every though into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."

To be without Christ cuts us off from the source of life and change.

The Perfection of Christ:

What is Biblical perfection?  The words "perfect" and "perfection" are translations of the Hebrew tam or tamim, which mean "complete," "right," "peaceful," "wholesome," and "blameless."  Generally the Greek teleios means "complete," "perfect," "mature," "fully developed," and having attained its purpose.

In the OT Noah, Abraham, and Job were each described as perfect or blameless, though each had imperfections.  In the NT perfect often describes mature persons who have lived to the best available light.  In God's sight, a perfect person is one whose heart and life are wholly surrendered to the worship and service of God, who is constantly growing in divine knowledge, and who is, through God's grace, living up to all the light he had received while rejoicing in a life of victory.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches.  He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Ephesians 3:19 "...to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

We are expected to grow in our knowledge.

Ephesians 4:13-14 "...til we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should not longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting..."

Hebrews 5:14 "But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..."

Philippians 1:9-11 "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation wit fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure."

God works in us to create a will in us to do His good works.

Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

If after we have the knowledge of the truth of salvation and we willfully sin, we are no longer covered by Christ's sacrifice.

Even though salvation is by faith alone, we also need holiness of character.

Colossians 1:9-10 "For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God..."

We must continually confess our sins for daily justification.

1 John 1:9-2:1 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.  My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.  And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

The Experience of Salvation and the Future:

Our salvation is finally and fully accomplished when we are either glorified in the resurrection or translated to heaven and the second Advent.

Romans 5:1-2" Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand and rejoice in home of the glory of God."

Hebrews 9:28 "...so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.  To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 "But we are bound to give thanks to god always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 8:19,23 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God...Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves eagerly waiting for the adoption (as a child of God), the redemption of our body."

Acts 3:21 "...whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Some incorrectly believe that the ultimate perfection that glorification will bring is already available to humans.

Philippians 3:12-14 "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.  Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those thing which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

The whole 3rd chapter in Philippians is relevant.

Sanctification is a lifelong process.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness; we can only receive it.

1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God – and righteousness and sanctification and redemption –"

We are fully justified and sanctified in Christ as part of the plan of Salvation.

[blackdiamond]

Here is my explaination of the 3rd "False Doctrine"

"Prior to Christ's return the issue of the Sabbath will become the center of focus between the mark of the beast and the seal of God"

Again, this is an EGW teaching.  Please provide the book, chapter, and verse that supports it in the bible.  Jesus himself stated that the greatest commandment was the shema.

Mat 22:36 & 37  Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Also, Paul is quite clear what the seal of God is in Ephesians.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Notice the people were sealed after they believed.  Not after they believed daily.)

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Again, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

This topic isn't a quick easy answer, most of the information is posted on the Religion thread, so I will try to summarize.

One of the key issues in the belief in the 7th day Sabbath is the Ten Commandments.  Many believe that they were nailed to the cross and no longer apply and the new commandment is found in Matthew 22:37.

Matthew 22:37-40 "Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.  This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Many misunderstand the context of this text.  This verse is the answer to the third question in a row that was intended to trick/test Christ.

Matthew 22:15, 23,34-36 "Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk...The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him...But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?"

It is obvious that He couldn't choose any one of the commandments because the first four are all equal followed by the remaining six.  This explains why He said that all the Law and the Prophets hang on the two commandments.  He simply summarized the Ten Commandments.

This isn't the first time these two commandments are seen in the Bible, similar verbiage also shows up in the Old Testament.  Moses had just finished giving the Israelites the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy chapter 5.

Deuteronomy 6:1-9 "Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life and that your days may be prolonged.  Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you – a land flowing with milk and honey.  Hear, O Israel: 'The Lord our God, the Lord is One!  You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Also see:

Deuteronomy 10:12, 11:13, 13:3 & 30:6
Joshua 22:5

So what was nailed to the cross?

Colossians 2:13-14 "And you, being dead in your trespasses, having wiped [blotted] out the handwriting of requirements that was against us which was contrary to us.  And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Exodus 32:16 "Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets [with His own finger]."

Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone."

We all know what the meaning of the term, "Written in stone," means, it can't be blotted out.  In Colossians 2 Paul was talking about the handwritten laws/rules that Moses wrote down.

Now how do the Ten Commandments apply to the Mark of the Beast?

Revelation 14:9-14 "Then a third angel followed the, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God...Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Note that the beast is worshiped.

Exodus 31:12-13 "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 'Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you."

We are required to keep all of the Ten Commandments, but God's seal/sign is found in the fourth commandment.  A sign or seal are used with the same meaning in the Bible and always are used in connection with some law or legal document.

See Romans 4:11, Daniel 6:8, 1 Kings 21:8 and Esther 3:12 for examples.

An official seal must show three things: (1) the name of the ruler; (2) the official position or title or right to rule; (3) the kingdom of territory ruled.  For example: George Washington (name), President (title/position) of the United States (extent of jurisdiction).

In the 4th (Sabbath) Commandment we find all there characteristics of a seal:
(1)   Lord thy God
(2)   Creator
(3)   Heaven and earth

Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

The Sabbath was made between God and the children of Israel (the descendant's of Abraham), so who are the children of Israel according to the Bible?

Galatians 3:7 "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham."

Galatians 3:13-14 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree'), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all..."

The choice is ours, the Bible is clear that in the end we will either worship the beast (Satan) or God.

Revelation 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelations 14:7 "...saying with a loud voice, 'Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

Consider the destruction of the flood and Sodom, what percentage of the people were truly faithful to God and received salvation?  Nine of the Ten Commandments are commonly kept among Christians, what percentage of Christians/world keep the fourth Commandment?

[blackdiamond]

Anybody reading this stuff? It isn't much fun defending myself if nobdy pays attention. 

[Ebbs15]

Anybody reading this stuff? It isn't much fun defending myself if nobdy pays attention.

I tried to but damn dude... that's alot of preach'n and it's not even sunday!... kidding...


but seriously... it's alot of reading... and it's hard to keep my attention when it's that dry... sorry but with me and my ADD you gotta keep it short and sweet...  though breaking it up did help...

I read the first one but didn't reply because you're quoting from a book that I hold no more value in than that of a Harry Potter book... (sorry if that comparrision offends some of you but it's my opinion)  and so trying to support your beliefs that way doesn't help me understand at all...

but here's a beer (or foamy lemonade if you don't drink) for your efforts

[chim]

A whole lot of talkin!!  Its going to take me a month to sift through this.... and why?? Because I want you to know a savior that wont let you loose your salvation... now thats an awesome powerful savior!

[blackdiamond]

A whole lot of talkin!!  Its going to take me a month to sift through this.... and why?? Because I want you to know a savior that wont let you loose your salvation... now thats an awesome powerful savior!

I got more to put together to answer NO4x so brace yourself, then I may take a vacation for a while and study some other things.

My Savior would never take the offer of salvation away from me, but I can choose to get off the train at any time.

I appreciate you looking out from me, we all need to grow in Christ 

[blackdiamond]

Here are three of the key texts from the salvation post:

Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

I think that if I understand the truth it would make be a believer, but obviously saved.

Philippians 3:12-14 "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.  Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those thing which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

This is along the lines of what the sillyrabbit guy was talking about, Paul didn't claim to have attained salvation, he pressed towards the goal.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

If we think we are secure, that alone should be a warning to us.

[blackdiamond]

I had a new experience yesterday, while I was helping my friend/pastor paint his new house yesterday he asked me what I thought about forgiveness.  We ended up having quite a lengthy conversation on the subject.  I will post the basic question for discussion here, there is some "history" that I won't be posting.

The Bible says that if we confess our sins God is faithful to forgive us our sins, it also says that God forgives us as we forgive others (i.e. we don't forgive others and we won't/can't be forgiven).  The question is should I take it literally and assume that unless someone asks me for forgiveness I can't forgive them?  How is forgiveness with respect to God & Man similar or different to forgiveness between Man & Man?  How is forgiveness similar or different to the "letting the past go" that people like Dr. Phil help people do.  For example, if someone misteated me as a child and I am harboring feeling of hate, can I forgive them if they don't ask for it?  If I "let it go," in secular terms, is it the same thing as forgiveness?

I also ordered a book to read (hopefully it will arrive tomorrow) that is an biography of a man that was raised a Catholic and ended up getting extremely deep into Satan Worship and then was rescued by God.  I won't comment in depth on the book until after I have read it for myself, I read some samplings from it online last night.  As an example of how deep he was into devil worship, when he started reading the Bible again, demons were slamming the Bible shut and throwing it against the wall while he was trying to read    and it didn't scare him because he knew exactly what was happening.  Sometimes I forget how real God and Satan really are.

[chim]

Interesting..  I am still going through your 4 pages of info.. so wont be able to get into this till after..  Im finding with the other posts and the scriptures you hav given, you have to read all the text to get the context and see what was really being said.. strenuous..thats why its good to keep it simple.

[blackdiamond]

Interesting..  I am still going through your 4 pages of info.. so wont be able to get into this till after..  Im finding with the other posts and the scriptures you hav given, you have to read all the text to get the context and see what was really being said.. strenuous..thats why its good to keep it simple.

The problem with keeping it simple is that not everything in the Bible is simple, or easily explained.  I have answered the other false doctrine items, they are actually very short in comparison, but will wait to post until you get caught up.  I wish we could sit down some some and have some fun    and    and    and   and    and and  and    It would much better than trying to get everything into email form.

[BLACKDOG]

sorry bd, havent been reading in a while.  like Ebbs15, you know, the ADD.   I'm sure its good stuff, and I sift through it slowly, so keep up the good work, dont get discouraged.

[Diggertoy]

Jesus is my Savior !

[chim]

Jesus is my Savior !

Right on!

[UNBREAKABLE]

Everyone has to believe in something..........................I believe I'll have another

[Fikseman]

few thoughts i have:

background: i am a Catholic, for just over 18 years. I have grown and been told to believe Catholic Doctrine.

so, now that im old enough, i was confirmed in my faith. the keyword im going to stress is faith. to the non-believers, religion is faith. You CANNOT base a religion with an after life off of fact. it is not possible. Since it is after the physical life, it cannot be confirmed nor denied. this is where faith plays the critical role to fill the missing link.

It is my belief, that the bible was written by humans, therefore it was subjected to human corruption::gasp:: IMHO, the bible is a book, a guide of how to live your life with FAITH. Faith is defined as:  Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. if there is no evidence, you must believe. Faith and belief go hand in hand. I don't care what you believe in, faith is the belief in something. therefore, religion cannot be proven through facts, since the bible itself is the faith of a religion.

Now, would we be in the same type of society if we did not have God or some comparable religion? most likely, not. I believe the Calvinist religion back in the Reformation periods, helped shape a very strict society. this is another history lesson for another day

so what is my faith? If i do not agree with everything the major denominations believe? Basically, my own, with the Catholic Church as the base layer to my beliefs.

1) Church, you must have a Church. not the actual building, but the community, those who are in the same situation as you are. They help you to believe as you them. Religious denomination means nothing. It is family, friends, strangers. Those around you, they are your Church, your foundation to a good solid faith. They help you when you fall. God is always there, guiding you, you just have to believe that w/e happens it happens for a reason.

2) The Bible is a source of the Faith I have chosen to follow. I take what the bible says, and turn it into something i can understand. Something i can relate too. this is where the Church plays a role in my faith, if i do not understand something, i can seek guidance/help. A Priest has helped me out a great deal, working at an actual Catholic Church, i have at one point discussed this with a him. It was entertaining, as we both learned a lot about our own private beliefs, while at the same time, almost agreeing on everything, except whether the pope can be fallible.

3) Life after death is not limited to those who believe in God, but rather those who live the Word. Those who have not been touched by the Word of God, but live the Word more then us, would we be saved and they not? even when they have been more virtuous then us? would it not be our fault for not showing them the Word? by living/speaking the Word?


i think im done, its 1 am and im tired, Sparks drink is wearing off....time for some sleep

[chim]

It is my belief, that the bible was written by humans, therefore it was subjected to human corruption::gasp:

True! The Bible was written by humans... but Authored by God! You cant tell me that 60 books written by more than 40 authors that all confirms the same message and has been under the most scrutiny for thousands of years, and has proven itself in prophecy, science and archeology and more, was a fluke of man. That takes FAITH... and you know what faith is!

3) Life after death is not limited to those who believe in God, but rather those who live the Word. Those who have not been touched by the Word of God, but live the Word more then us, would we be saved and they not? even when they have been more virtuous then us? would it not be our fault for not showing them the Word? by living/speaking the Word?

This is your belief, but what does the Bible say... all have sinned, all have come short of the glory of God, all of us are in need of a savior, those who accept Chrsit will be saved, the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ... works will not save you.

If you want answers with more scripture reference I can do that for you.. but as we ALL know.. when someone tosses out tons of scripture it makes us not want to read it all and becomes very taxing. Short and simple baby..  just like Gods plan!

[blackdiamond]

... but as we ALL know.. when someone tosses out tons of scripture it makes us not want to read it all and becomes very taxing.

Prior to your post: Me 

During your post:  You    Me

After your post: Me 

I wouldn't agree that I was simply tossing out scripture, it is vital that the Bible be studied as a whole and not just form beliefs on individual texts.  I will, however, try to keep things more concise in the future.

I am surprised that quoting a bunch of texts from the Bible makes you not want to read the Bible?    

As for works being part of salvation, you are correct that we are saved by grace alone, but our works are EVIDENCE of our faith.  If we take Israel as an example (not too much of a stretch) we will notice that when the angel of death passed through Egypt, Israel was required to place blood (along with a few other specific instructions) on their doorposts as evidence of their faith that God would save their first born from death.  If they hadn't followed the command of God, even though they believed, the the first born would have died.  Another example is Noah, building the ark was an amazing act (works) that showed evidence of his faith.  Without his works, he couldn't have been saved.  God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and the Bible give us evidence of His character and defines His laws.

Is this short enough to maintain interest?

[chim]

I was trying to make you mad or smack on you, but my point is, I have read everything you wrote, and many, many things were taken out of context, and many dont support your point.. and only a couple of the "false doctrines" were answered... and If i were to respond to those then it would be too much to probably hold someones interest in the post. It doesnt make me not want to read the Bible.. it just gets tiring when things are taken out of context or dont actually support the argument. .its like it was tossed out there in quantity and not quality. All my answers have been short and precise and very easy to understand... only for the pure simple fact that its simple! There is simplicity in Christ!

You site many Old Testament references in your points and it makes me think that you may feel you are under some form of Old Testament Law and that there are certain works you have to do?

Please accept my apology though, I didnt intend to come accross mean.

[NO4X]

and only a couple of the "false doctrines" were answered... and If i were to respond to those then it would be too much to probably hold someones interest in the post.

BD, are you done answering?  I have been waiting for you to finish your answers before giving my rebuttal.

So, far this is what we have.

1.  Jesus is Michael (Can't be proven)
2.  Jesus risked  his place in the trinity (non-biblical, causes headaches)
3.  Must continually accept gift of grace (answered, rebuttal to come)
4.  Sabbath will be center of focus between mark of the beast and seal of god.  (response given, not really answered, rebuttal to come)
5.  Wicked are destroyed by Christ's glory at first resurrection. (no answer given)
6.  Christ never touches the ground (no answer given)
7.  Righteous go to heaven for 1000 years. (no answer given)
8.  After 1000 years, the New Jerusalem descends on the earth, where Satan is bound. (no answer given)

I know you are researching these items whenever you get a chance..I'm sure you have a life outside of this forum.

[blackdiamond]

Chim - I'm not upset at you, I just wanted to let you know that I was reading the posts and noticed the "jab," no worries.

I think that the salvation issue is getting close to being a dead issue because we have very different views, seemingly both from the Bible, and I don't see any middle ground in the near future, but I will be happy to discuss further.  To be perfectly honest, once-saved-always-saved makes about as much sense to me as a perpetual motion machine, there are simply too many logical flaws and Biblical contridictions for me to ever understand the belief.

I do think that ten commandments given in Exodus 20 still apply, not just the two commandment summary that Christ gave in the NT.

NO4X - I was waiting for Chim to signal that he had finished reading the posts since he has limited internet time.  I have combined the remaining items since they are somewhat related.  Can you post your rebuttals one at a time to keep the discussion focused?  You are correct that I have many things going other than the board, life has been crazy recently.

"At the first resurrection the wicked are killed by the glory of Christ's return"

Please provide the scripture that states the wicked are killed by Christ's glory at the first resurrection.

2Th 2:8-10 KJVR  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  (9)  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  (10)  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Can it say it more clearly?

"Christ never touches the ground at the 1st resurrection"

Really, then please explain Zechariah 14:3 & 4  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Please provide a verse that states people are killed by his glory, and that he doesn't touch the ground.  This passage says the opposite of what you are claiming.

"The righteous then go to heaven for a period of 1000 years to reign with Christ and review the "records" to find out for ourselves the justice of God.  The books are opened and we get the chance to see the justice of the judgement."

Please show this in the bible.  Again, this is not a biblical fact.  Jesus reigns from Zion: a physical place on the map in Israel.

Isa 2:3 & 4  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Why would he have to rebuke anybody, if all the wicked people are dead?

I am not positive what Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 2 are specifically talking about, but the Bible is very clear that we meet Christ in the air and then reign with Him a thousand years.

1Th 4:16-18 KJVR  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  (17)  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  (18)  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those that are alive AND REMAIN shall be caught up with them in the clouds (righteous dead) to meet the Lord in the AIR.

Rev 20:5-6 KJVR  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  (6)  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest of the dead (unrighteous dead) lived NOT again until the thousand years were finished.  Those that take part in the first resurrection shall reign a thousand years.

"After the 1000 years the holy city descends on the earth,"

Again, EGW speaking here.  Please provide the biblical evidence for this.  Per Revelation the New Jerusalem doesn't descend from heaven until the old heaven and earth pass away.

Rev 21:1 & 2  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I want to state again, your views are at risk of leading people astray.  They are going catch new believers in the legalistic merry-go-round that profits nobody.  And we, as christians, are responsible to God.  There is alot of information you give that sounds biblical, but cannot be proven biblically.  And after all, Jesus himself, says, that God's word is truth.

Jhn 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Rev 21:1-4 KJVR  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  (2)  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  (3)  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  (4)  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The new heaven comes down at the 2nd resurrection.  At the 2nd Coming (1st resurrection) the righteous reign with God a thousand years and the earth is desolate (Satan is bound in the pit).  After the thousand years the wicked are raised to their eternal judgment.  After all of this takes place God can finally wipe away our tears and fulfill the promise of no more death, sorrow, crying or pain.  It doesn't make sense that this could happen prior to the 2nd death (eternal judgment of the wicked).

Read chapter 20 again, verses 1-3 describe Satan being bound in the pit, verses 4-6 describe the 1st resurrection and the thousand years, verses 7-10 describes the 2nd resurrection and Satan being released, verses 11-14 describe the judgment and punishment of the wicked.  After all of this happens the new heaven in chapter 21 happens.

[blackdiamond]

Sweet!  I thought I had lost the previous post.

[*FFC*]

BD, are you done answering?  I have been waiting for you to finish your answers before giving my rebuttal.

So, far this is what we have.

1.  Jesus is Michael (Can't be proven)
2.  Jesus risked  his place in the trinity (non-biblical, causes headaches)
3.  Must continually accept gift of grace (answered, rebuttal to come)
4.  Sabbath will be center of focus between mark of the beast and seal of god.  (response given, not really answered, rebuttal to come)
5.  Wicked are destroyed by Christ's glory at first resurrection. (no answer given)
6.  Christ never touches the ground (no answer given)
7.  Righteous go to heaven for 1000 years. (no answer given)
8.  After 1000 years, the New Jerusalem descends on the earth, where Satan is bound. (no answer given)

I know you are researching these items whenever you get a chance..I'm sure you have a life outside of this forum.

#5: I believe the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming
#6: I believe that when Christ comes back to this earth to take the righteous with him, he will not touch the ground.  That is in the future.  I believe he touched it before when he walked the earth as a human...
#7: Yes I believe that the righteous go to heaven for a thousand years
#8: I also believe that after a thousand years we willl come back down to a new and cleansed earth

[chim]

Cant we just pick one verse at a time, and not write pages!!!! I dont know about everyone else, but I can only do this at work, so between reading long posts and trying to pretend like Im working.. it gets hard..  Someone pick one verse and lets look at it.