What do you think of Christ?

[blackdiamond]

Mat 24:20-21 KJVR  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  (21)  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Context: Christ is describing the end times, prior to His 2nd Coming.

It seems obvious that any "flight" in the winter would be miserable, but why does Christ specifically mention the sabbath?

[chim]

I believe this can be answered very easily... 

Sabbath is important.. no one will deny that..  we should hope we aren't forced to flee on the sabbath because that is a day of rest from our wordly labors and travel.

Now if wordly labors and travel were strictly prohibited on the sabbath then the Lord would have said something like "Whatever becomes of you, do not flee on the sabbath day, but abide by it, though you die by it.''

But the Lord didn't say this, because he knows that there is sometimes a necessity for labor on the Sabbath.. You see the disciples picking corn to eat on the Sabbath.. they weren't supposed to, but they did it because they had to eat.. The Lord healed on the sabbath.. he wasn't supposed to do that either.. but he did.. There are always going to be things we need to do out of necessity.

So basically.. I think he mentions the sabbath because we cant discount any day no matter what.. just because there is a sabbath day, doesn't mean the Lord cant come on that day.. which pretty much puts an end to the point that that the Lord cant come on Sabbath.. no day is free from the Lords 2nd Coming... any day is possible.

With this we should be in agreement...

[NO4X]

It seems obvious that any "flight" in the winter would be miserable, but why does Christ specifically mention the sabbath?

uh...he's talking about the abomination of desolation, when the antichrist desecrates the temple, then the jews are to flee.  He's saying to pray their flight isn't on the sabbath, because in Israel, everything shuts down at 3:00 p.m. friday.  Very little infrastructure is working.  If you have to flee, and you can't get gas, you won't get far.

Remember the church is NOT Israel.

[chim]

My turn to pose a verse....

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  

I think since Paul was a very learned pharisee, his take on the sabbath is pretty clear. How do we explain this?

[blackdiamond]

uh...he's talking about the abomination of desolation, when the antichrist desecrates the temple, then the jews are to flee.  He's saying to pray their flight isn't on the sabbath, because in Israel, everything shuts down at 3:00 p.m. friday.  Very little infrastructure is working.  If you have to flee, and you can't get gas, you won't get far.

Remember the church is NOT Israel.

NO4X: I won't be home most of this weekend so I won't be able to research and post on this one, but I will when I get the chance.

Chim: I noticed that you said that sabbath is the day of rest from our worldy labors and travels, with some exceptions (i.e helping other or necessities).  Are their any activities that you don't do on sabbath (Sunday in your case)?  I know that some Sunday keepers keep Sunday similar to the way SDAs keep Saturday, but the majority don't.

[blackdiamond]

My turn to pose a verse....

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  

I think since Paul was a very learned pharisee, his take on the sabbath is pretty clear. How do we explain this?

Again, I will have to look it up later in the weekend as I don't what don't want to comment without study to confirm my thoughts.  I should get something posted by Monday when you are at work again.

Have a Super weekend guys (and ladies)!

[chim]

Resting from our labors and travels is pretty much the basic concept on sabbath, joined with worshiping the Lord. This doesnt make it the rule though.. resting one way, may be different between people..  watching tv may be resting for one, where working on a project car may be considered rest for another......

I dont really have a set time or day that I just do nothing but worship God..  But I love the Lord equally each day. Sunday I go to church, then hang with family..  Wednesday nights I am at church. Sometimes on Saturdays Im talking to Mormons with NO4X. In the evenings i try to always set time aside to read his word or listen to some sort of message..  But he is in my thoughts all day everyday. I believe living in a close relationship with him is worship and glory in itself. I believe there is freedom in Christ and that my focus on him should not be limited to one day a week... So my answer is I regard everyday to the Lord. Somedays are better than others.. but the Lord knows my heart.

I also think this is why Paul mentions it because it was causing a division among Christians back then just as it is today and has nothing to do with salvation.

Have a good weekend also..  I always enjoy our conversations. I just wish more people would chime in with some more indepth thoughts or opinions!

[NO4X]

O.k.  Here is my rebuttal.  I will do this one at a time, so everyone can follow along.  First, let me mention, that anybody reading this thread, should not believe one thing I say here.  They should go to the source documents of the passages I reference and investigate for themselves if what I say is true.  If  I error, please tell me and set me straight.  There are plenty of good bible resources online, and you can read almost all of Ellen White's writings on the White Estate website.  Let me point to a previous quote: "I don't see much point in really professing my opinion if I don't support it with the Bible."  Well said.  After all, the Bible is truth.

False Doctrine #1:  "Christ was willing to risk His place in the Trinity to come to earth and challenge Satan as a man with a sinful nature"

You have failed to provide a verse that states Christ had a sinful nature.  You provide Hebrews 4:15, but this verse needs a closer look.  The last three words are the key: "yet without sin."  If He was enticed in anyway as we are, He sinned.

James 1:13-14:  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 

There was no risk of Christ sinning. 

In Ezekiel 12:25, God explains that He is the Lord, and what He speaks, He will perform.  I think we all know that.

In Matthew 25:34 & 1 Peter 1:20, it is stated that the plan of salvation existed before the foundation of the world. 

God made His plan before the foundation of the world, and He does what He says, ALWAYS!!!  Therefore, there was NO risk of failure.  God doesn't fail, but knows the end from the beginning.

By making the statement, that Jesus (God in the flesh) had the possibility to sin, you are making Him out to be less than He is, the same way you make Him less, by saying He is Michael the archangel.

Let me show you where this SDA belief comes from.

EGW Manuscript releases Volume 6.  Here is a little bit, but read it for yourself.
"Not only did Christ give explicit rules showing how we may become obedient children, but He showed us in His own life and character just how to do those things which are right and acceptable with God, so there is no excuse why we should not do those things which are pleasing in His sight.

We are ever to be thankful that Jesus has proved to us by actual facts that man can keep the commandments of God, giving contradiction to Satan's falsehood that man cannot keep them.  The Great Teacher came to our world to stand at the head of humanity, to thus elevate and sanctify humanity by His holy obedience to all of God's requirements showing it is possible to obey all the commandments of God."

And EGW Early Writings pg 152.
"Satan again rejoiced with his angels that he could, by causing man's fall, pull down the Son of God from His exalted position. He told his angels that when Jesus should take fallen man's nature, he could overpower Him and hinder the accomplishment of the plan of salvation."

Christ's sinful nature is Ellen White's words...not God's.

[Ebbs15]

It is my belief, that the bible was written by humans, therefore it was subjected to human corruption::gasp:

True! The Bible was written by humans... but Authored by God! You cant tell me that 60 books written by more than 40 authors that all confirms the same message and has been under the most scrutiny for thousands of years, and has proven itself in prophecy, science and archeology and more, was a fluke of man. That takes FAITH... and you know what faith is!

but take the star wars books... they started out as one person writing a story and branched off... now you can find more than a dozen authors all tied in via a loose connection to the orignal...   

also when the bible was written it was WAY before copyrights were availble... so who's to say that they all didn't stumble upon a copy of a book and translate the text? 

Like I said before... I'm not trying to offend anyone by comparing your bible to the starwars trilogy but it makes sence in my insane mind...

and I'm still reading... but when you guys post more than about 20 lines of text my brain frys... and I have to reboot

[blackdiamond]

uh...he's talking about the abomination of desolation, when the antichrist desecrates the temple, then the jews are to flee.  He's saying to pray their flight isn't on the sabbath, because in Israel, everything shuts down at 3:00 p.m. friday.  Very little infrastructure is working.  If you have to flee, and you can't get gas, you won't get far.

Remember the church is NOT Israel.

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."  NKJV

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew no Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."  NKJV

The Bible is clear that being part of Israel is not specific to a nationality.  If we are not considered to be Israel, who are God's people, then there is a lot of the Bible that does not apply to us, so why would God keep it as part of the Bible?

[blackdiamond]

My turn to pose a verse....

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  

I think since Paul was a very learned pharisee, his take on the sabbath is pretty clear. How do we explain this?

The whole point of Romans chapter 14 is for us not to judge one another, it does not give specifics about what is right or wrong in God's sight.  The key is that the judgement is up to God.  We all answer to God directly and individually, it is not our place to judge.

Rom 14:11-13 KJVR  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  (12)  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  (13)  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[blackdiamond]

O.k.  Here is my rebuttal.  I will do this one at a time, so everyone can follow along.  First, let me mention, that anybody reading this thread, should not believe one thing I say here.  They should go to the source documents of the passages I reference and investigate for themselves if what I say is true.  If  I error, please tell me and set me straight.  There are plenty of good bible resources online, and you can read almost all of Ellen White's writings on the White Estate website.  Let me point to a previous quote: "I don't see much point in really professing my opinion if I don't support it with the Bible."  Well said.  After all, the Bible is truth.

False Doctrine #1:  "Christ was willing to risk His place in the Trinity to come to earth and challenge Satan as a man with a sinful nature"

You have failed to provide a verse that states Christ had a sinful nature.  You provide Hebrews 4:15, but this verse needs a closer look.  The last three words are the key: "yet without sin."  If He was enticed in anyway as we are, He sinned.

James 1:13-14:  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 

There was no risk of Christ sinning. 

In Ezekiel 12:25, God explains that He is the Lord, and what He speaks, He will perform.  I think we all know that.

In Matthew 25:34 & 1 Peter 1:20, it is stated that the plan of salvation existed before the foundation of the world. 

God made His plan before the foundation of the world, and He does what He says, ALWAYS!!!  Therefore, there was NO risk of failure.  God doesn't fail, but knows the end from the beginning.

By making the statement, that Jesus (God in the flesh) had the possibility to sin, you are making Him out to be less than He is, the same way you make Him less, by saying He is Michael the archangel.

First I will post a couple of texts a 2nd time:

Psalms 8:4-5 "What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?  For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor."

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Christ was made like us.  If there was no chance that Christ could fail, then what did He sacrifice?  As I said before, Christ having a "sinful nature" isn't a description that I am 100% comfortable with, but He was made like us and did have the opportunity to fail.

As for the EG White, I don't mind you quoting her in the context of SDA beliefs, but please don't assume that my personal beliefs are not based upon my reading of the Bible simple because I differ in my understanding of what I have read, I have not even read most of the EG White that you quote.         

How about #2

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

I dont know what you guys are all up in arms for.Jesus came into this world not to destroy this world but to save it.
He came into this world supernatural thu a virgin birth,was tempted after his baptism in th jordan river by John,and lived a sin free life so we can try to live the way he did.I every morning wake up a ask for forgiveness because I know by myself I will sin.It is by his grace that I will not be bound to go to hell when I face my judgement( we will all face the music if you belive or not)

[dj]

It makes me feel good to know people on here are not afraid to listen to each others views and stand up for they believe in and to respect each others beliefs

[*FFC*]

It makes me feel good to know people on here are not afraid to listen to each others views and stand up for they believe in and to respect each others beliefs

Me too... It's great to see such a difference in opinions handled so maturely

[blackdiamond]

I dont know what you guys are all up in arms for.Jesus came into this world not to destroy this world but to save it.
He came into this world supernatural thu a virgin birth,was tempted after his baptism in th jordan river by John,and lived a sin free life so we can try to live the way he did.I every morning wake up a ask for forgiveness because I know by myself I will sin.It is by his grace that I will not be bound to go to hell when I face my judgement( we will all face the music if you belive or not)

I think you are on the right track.

Your name should be wishIhadmoneytobuyatruck because if you have money to spend, a truck will follow.

[Brandon]

I don't

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

Why dont you ??Some of my mormon freinds and I get into some great debates (not yelling)but they want to covert me to there way and I want to save them.Its  a battle but after going to church with me one of them gave there life to christ and was transformed into someone special in my view point.

[NO4X]

Why dont you ??Some of my mormon freinds and I get into some great debates (not yelling)but they want to covert me to there way and I want to save them.Its a battle but after going to church with me one of them gave there life to christ and was transformed into someone special in my view point.

That is AWESOME!  Every christian reading this thread is praising God.

[NO4X]

The Bible is clear that being part of Israel is not specific to a nationality. If we are not considered to be Israel, who are God's people, then there is a lot of the Bible that does not apply to us, so why would God keep it as part of the Bible?

I do not deny the fact that we are SPIRITUALLY Israel.  That is the point Paul is making in the above verses.  He is writing to 2 different churches, who have been taught that they must convert to judaism in order to be saved.  He is saying that is not true.  Believers are God's people by the Spirit that is inside them.

However, the verse you reference in Matthew 24 is specifically addressed to PHYSICAL Israel.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I may be spiritual Israel, but I don't live in Judaea. 

When the time of the gentiles is complete, then God will work through physical Israel once again.

[NO4X]

First I will post a couple of texts a 2nd time:

Psalms 8:4-5 "What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor."

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Christ was made like us. If there was no chance that Christ could fail, then what did He sacrifice? As I said before, Christ having a "sinful nature" isn't a description that I am 100% comfortable with, but He was made like us and did have the opportunity to fail.


How about #2

Let's put this one to bed before I go on to #2.  O.k.?

I totally share your frustration of knowing what I believe but not being able to put it into words.  So, I think we will all be able to agree on this explanation, and then I can go on to #2. 

This is not my explanation.  The credit should go to Dr. J. Vernon McGee.

Jesus was made like us, and tempted (tested) like us.  But he could not have sinned.  Temptation is simply the opportunity to sin.  This is how satan tempts us.  He tempted Jesus the same way.  Sin is the desire to take advantage of that opportunity.  The desire to do wrong.  Jesus had the opportunity to do wrong, but had no desire to do wrong.  Had Jesus sinned, it would have only proven he wasn't God.

[chim]

The whole point of Romans chapter 14 is for us not to judge one another, it does not give specifics about what is right or wrong in God's sight.  The key is that the judgement is up to God.  We all answer to God directly and individually, it is not our place to judge.

The key here IS judgement.. but its about judging people on which day they worship... not just judgement in general..  there are tons of versus on that by itself...  your not addressing the fact that we shouldnt judge people on when they choose to worship God..

Why dont you ??Some of my mormon freinds and I get into some great debates (not yelling)but they want to covert me to there way and I want to save them.Its  a battle but after going to church with me one of them gave there life to christ and was transformed into someone special in my view point.

Thats awesome... Im a Mormon convert myself... praise the Lord.

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

One of the mormons once told me that Jesus was just a good guy,(I almost laught)and the he was lord of this world and when we die we will be lords over other worlds.I can't see that happing since there are only so many worlds and more humans everyday.

[wheelinyotagirl]

  Well, after seeing this I figured he can't be all that bad...his dad knows whats up.

[*FFC*]

 

[dj]

I want to join that church           

[NO4X]

One of the mormons once told me that Jesus was just a good guy,(I almost laught)and the he was lord of this world and when we die we will be lords over other worlds.I can't see that happing since there are only so many worlds and more humans everyday.

I know what you are talking about.  These people are faithful to their cult.  I think it is so cool how God used you to get through to this person.

[WISHIHADATRUCK]

i really dont know where we got on paul's adventure.He was the first traveling evanglist.He was not one of the 12 and he was a tax collector (lowest form of life those days).But we can see what can be done when we belive in Jesus

[Ebbs15]

I know what you are talking about. These people are faithful to their cult. I think it is so cool how God used you to get through to this person.
cult (n)

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.
An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
it's a organized religon just as much as christianity is!... by looking it up I could classify EVERY religon as a cult being that I believe that they ALL may be wrong... but cult has a Negitive conotation to it...  but maybe I'm just reading too much into it... and you didn't mean it the way it sounds... but just wanted to clear the air...

[chim]

Ebbs15 - When the term cult is used, it is referred to any non-Christian organization straying from orthodox Christian beliefs. This is what is commonly accepted and how it is commonly used. Accept obviously when a cultist uses it to try to defend their position. Sure it doesn't sound that great..  by why should it be sugar coated?