Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 195052 times)

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andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #870 on: May 02, 2017, 10:12:40 AM »
Yeah I guess I always go the impression from Ted that he was doing some amount of testing on the dyno, but he wouldn't put up the actual numbers. Only a range of percent of increase. Which I guess makes sense from a business point of view, if you put up dyno numbers you are opening yourself up to every idiot with a truck that runs like crap trying to say your product doesn't run as advertised.

I spent a few years tuning a Wrx and I don't remember any of the mod companies I dealt with putting up real dyno results. They would just make a vague dyno-looking chart without any numbers (totally worthless) and really just say what "stage" you should be at to run that piece of gear. Maybe that has changed but it was Cobb and Turbo XS, pretty big names in the game, and they seemed to have no interest in provided a real chart to the public.

All in all with a 22RE cam, looking at those charts you posted it is apparent that mostly what is happening is shifting the power band one way or another. Peak torque and HP never vary by that much. I would certainly question anyone who can feel the difference between couple of ft/lbs or HP. It looks like the 252 should be a touch better than the 261. And I cant even really compare from when I owned one because now I am running a RV head with oversized valves. If Ted is right and that head provides 6-10% increase than that is far more than a cam change can do. I am a believer in that head, that is for sure :) I can't really see throwing $230 at the 252 to maybe gain 2 ft/lbs, haha.

Did engnbldr have any response to the lobes being off-center? Can't see that causing your engine issues, but it might speak to some QC issues in that production run.
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #871 on: May 03, 2017, 04:41:13 AM »
Hi andykrow,

Great commentary.

On my question about the lobe misalignment on my cam… Tod said that it is not uncommon and that it won’t cause any issues (paraphrased).

I understand all the aspects of sales, marketing, advertising, distribution, and profit-loss in a sales driven business model.  When I first read Ted’s posts on his Toyota 22 power enhancement products, I challenged him and at that time he could not, or would not share any test data… so I, like many, just had to take his expert “word” on the percentages.  As I recall his oversized valves will add about 7% to 8%.

Dyno numbers… over the years, anytime I had a chance to communicate with a supplier, I always asked for data to backup their claims.  So far, I have not seen any.

The Doug Thorley engineer I met and spoke with back around 1987 said the header I was having installed on my 22RE would increase power about 10%, again I asked for test data….crickets.

From 1977 thru 1986 I ran K&N air filters on all 3 of my sandrails….again I asked for their test data on performance gains and long term use… crickets. Here’s a link to their FAQs… read #2.  https://www.knfilters.com/faq.htm#2

It’s my opinion that many advertised power gain numbers are very optimistic, or simply inflated for marketing purposes, and not realistic for the average consumer.

Just my speculation…. If I take my 1985 stock 22R, rated at 96 HP, add a Doug Thorley header and 2.25 exhaust with free-flow and get 8 to 10%, that’s 105.6 HP. Then I add an RV head with over-sized valves, that adds another 7 to 8% - that’s 113 HP. Now install torquey camshaft, that adds 2 to 4%, that totals approximately 116 HP, or an increase of about 20 HP.  Is that reasonable?  I’d love to see an engine dyno test on SuperFlo 902S starting with a factory stock 22R or 22RE and adding a header, a ported head with OS valves, and a torquey cam.

My experience with the 22s is not as long as yours, but my experience is slightly different.  With the modifications I have made on all of my 22s, I could DEFINITELY feel the difference in throttle response, torque, and high end RPM.  I do believe that my butt dyno can, in fact, feel the difference in very small torque number changes.  My 85 factory stock 22R was rated at 96 HP, so small changes to an already under-powered truck was noticeable.

Can you feel the difference when you switch on your AC in your 22RE?  How much in HP or torque numbers is the drag on the engine?

Regarding publically shared product test data and false advertising… why would it not be perfectly legal for a supplier to share test data on a specific engine test with a specific product, with an appropriate disclaimer?

More than one expert Toyota 22 engine builder has told me that the primary restriction to the stock head is the port design.  WITHOUT porting the head - based upon flow bench testing - larger valves, cam profile changes, and opened exhaust will NOT be significant.

How much increase in torque and HP will a $1210 Stage 2 head from 22RE Performance add to my 1986 factory stock 22RE??????.... I don’t know.

Until I see some certified comparison test data, I have to go by the “experts”, Toyota aftermarket suppliers, anecdotal opinions, shared experiences of others, my experiences, and my years of research, and 1000s of hours doing mock pulls on my Engine Analyzer software.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 04:59:21 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #872 on: May 03, 2017, 08:00:19 PM »
Hey andykrow,

I have attached an Excel sheet with 4 cams.  For this comparison I simply only changed the cam specs as published by the manufacturer or supplier.

I chose those cams because they closely match my desired power gain in torque in the RPM range I use the most.

These are just predicted numbers from my Engine Analyzer software, so they may or may not be what we would see on an actual engine dynamometer test.

Please compare the numbers for the CompCam 252S and the Schneider 244-50F... interesting numbers?

Based upon those numbers my choice today is the same one I chose about 13 years ago for my 22R… the CompCam 252S.

The engine specs are:  1986 22RE, .020” over bore, 1mm Over-size valves, Compression Ratio 9.6:1, header and free-flow exhaust.

The dyno program running conditions are:  29.82 Barometric pressure, Intake air temperature 80d F, Dew Point 37d F, Elevation 1,000 feet, Coolant Temperature 195, Fuel 87 Octane.

See attached Excel Sheet.

Please let me know what you think.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 08:07:34 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #873 on: May 04, 2017, 04:46:00 AM »
This is just my 2 cents but ..

Hey Liveoak,

Wow.. there are a lot of thoughts I have on your comments.

Squeezing more power out of any factory ECU controlled engine is a challenge at the very least, but it’s done all time.

I agree that the 22RE ECU is programmed to “control” the power, and limits changes outside of its “control”, and I have already posted my thoughts on this many times.  I have also commented that in my experience the power gain modifications to the 22R are way more noticeable and reasonable.

I also agree that the data from my DD is based on mathematical changes in the physical dimensions of a camshaft profile, and cannot evaluate or analyze the ECU programmed limitations and electronic ranges… which is very obvious to me when using the program.

I also believe that the cost per increase in numbers (Torque and HP) has been well documented in many posts on this subject.  In other words, people have spent several thousand dollars on aftermarket products to modify a 22RE and the results, by butt-dyno, was in many cases, less than expected.

My interest is not to get a neck-snapping increase in power out of 30 year old engine by bolting in a $100 camshaft and bolting on $600 worth of header and exhaust.  My primary interest was just to educate myself more about how this little engine works…. Learning by way of actual hands-on experience.

Regarding WOT (wide open throttle), I understand what that means to an engine.  Since I'm not building a race engine, the WOT response is way less important to me because I would practically only use WOT power in few driving situations.  My original main interest was to see if I could get more torque in the 2500 to 3500 range where I do 95% of my actual drive time.  I believe that even an increase in peak torque from 140 lbs to 150 lbs will be noticeable enough to make my daily driving more enjoyable. Based on the conversations I’ve had with expert Toyota engine builders, the 22RE injectors will only flow enough fuel to a limit of about 125 HP.  If that’s true, I’ll be happy to take my 116 HP engine to 125 HP.

So looking at the big picture, are the suppliers selling camshafts and larger valves to get more power in a 22RE  is just Bravo Sierra … “air-power”?  Would it be rational to speculate that the reason I don’t see any real engine dyno test data to back up claims by the suppliers of aftermarket products is the purported power gains are not factual?  :dunno:

Or are the experiences expressed on many automotive websites just Bravo Sierra?  :dunno:

I agree with your comment…. “I would advise anyone rebuilding a 22re to stick to the stock configuration as much as possible.”  That’s probably good advice.

Where would we be if we didn’t explore the unknown, break the rules, and think outside the box?  :dunno:

Cognitive Dissonance will always be present in the automotive world... and that is what makes it interesting. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 04:11:48 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #874 on: May 04, 2017, 06:49:07 AM »
I agree we should explore the unknown, but also share what we learn from it. I fell down the 22re rabbit hole long ago. You're still an adjustable cam gear, bored throttle body and supra AFM behind where I was when I finally realized it is what it is. I only mentioned WOT because (on a 22re)it's the top end that suffers most from added air mods(big bores, big valves). The closer you get to WOT, the further you get from the pre-programmed fuel parameters. I hope you get your motor running to your satisfaction, I just thought I'd add some lessons learned to anyone reading this who's thinking about jumping into  the hole with us.

All information shared is a good thing.

I'm beyond the theoretical "it will work" and the theoretical "it won't work", I'm just trying to verify what "does work" for myself.

It's definitely appears to be a rabbit hole.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #875 on: May 04, 2017, 08:05:22 AM »
Gnarly,

Thanks for the data! Very interesting. I would say it confirms what I have been thinking regarding the 2 cams as I drive my new motor a bit more. My butt dyno thinks the previous truck may have had a little more oomph right off the line. Only up to 1500 or so, and than this current motor just takes over, probably due to the OS valves.

It is a bit surprising that the 261 is so weak off idle, compared to the others. Mainly because as for drivability in my setup, I can't really ask for anything better than what I have. (Probably because the 35/5.29 combo is a little lower geared than stock.) I barely have to touch the gas starting from a standstill, she does not want to die.

Certainly, it looks like I would be doing even better if I had the 252 in there right now, but the extra $150 or so I would have had to spend makes me okay with my decision right now. (For now, haha.) My main concern is the 3-4.5k range, where the 261 and 252 are nearly identical. This is the high-altitude interstate pass-climbing range. Since my gearing is so low I am not concerned with torque under 2k.

Soo... With your motor... What is your plan for figuring out the issues?
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #876 on: May 04, 2017, 08:13:07 AM »
One thing I might note with regards to tuning the 22RE. They are always pretty weak, in my mind. So, one quickly becomes used to the mods that were done and the truck gets back to feeling slow. All I have to do when that happens is hop in one of my friend's toys to remind myself that I have the fastest 22re amongst them. ;)

I don't really know enough about tuning, but there is some sort of range available from the ecu. It is EFI after all, it does look at the mixture and adjust accordingly. So it stands to reason if I can increase flow I will get more power, within the limits of the fuel map and the injectors. Currently I am happy with the OS valves and open exhaust and I will never take that any further.

As for WOT, in this motor that is open loop, correct? So, with too much flow we are going to lean out the motor, possibly dangerously. If one could edit that WOT mapping maybe we could get somewhere.

Personally I nearly always stay out of WOT on these motors, they actually seem to have a bit more power when you are close to WOT but not all the way there.
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #877 on: May 04, 2017, 08:03:28 PM »
..
It is a bit surprising that the 261 is so weak off idle, compared to the others.

This really surprised me also! ??  I've been trying to figure out where the data is getting the numbers...  6 degrees of overlap??

My butt dyno so far says this cam has lots of torque in the lower RPM range? 

Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #878 on: May 04, 2017, 08:34:22 PM »
..
As for WOT, in this motor that is open loop, correct? So, with too much flow we are going to lean out the motor, possibly dangerously. ..

Yes, WOT for most EFI ECUs will bypass the O2 sensor input, which is only going to read lean or rich - I don't think the O2 sensor in our 22RE is a linear readout.  In open loop, I believe AFR goes rich, not lean.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #879 on: May 04, 2017, 08:44:08 PM »
Gnarly,  Soo... With your motor... What is your plan for figuring out the issues?

Well... I will look at the rockers and cam on Sunday.  I need to figure out what is making the noise I hear.  I am debating to stick in my old stock cam, for testing purposes, or just order the CompCam 252S? 

As much as I hate to pull the chamber and throttle body to get to that dad-gum pressure regulator, I need to replace it to be sure it's not causing a low fuel pressure issue to the injectors... possibly causing what I think is a lean mixture.

Beyond that, I'm overly analyzing my rebuild and wanting to get it sounding right to my ears.  Then get 1000 miles on it.

I'm frustrated with this rebuild, but not surprised at the challenges and speed bumps I have run into.

Knowing what I know now, and could go back in time, I would rethink it and do it differently.

Gnarls

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #880 on: May 04, 2017, 08:48:28 PM »
Put a pressure gauge on the fuel system first so you don't have to pull things apart.............

I think   :headscratch: you can tap in on the cold start injector.......
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #881 on: May 04, 2017, 08:51:14 PM »
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #882 on: May 04, 2017, 08:53:53 PM »
Put a pressure gauge on the fuel system first so you don't have to pull things apart.............

I think   :headscratch: you can tap in on the cold start injector.......

Yeah.... not a bad idea... I've looked at this before:   http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #883 on: May 04, 2017, 08:55:09 PM »
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........

Funny... I was just posting the link after I read your suggestion!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #884 on: May 04, 2017, 08:56:43 PM »
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........

Geezz.. I've got close to $6,000 invested so far.... so another $60 or $70 seems like peanuts!! :dunno: 

And, if the pressure is OK, I'll have another cool tool to add to my garage!!!  A new fuel pressure regulator is about $70.


Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 03:53:33 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #885 on: May 04, 2017, 09:09:48 PM »
emsvitil,

By testing fuel pressure at the cold start injector, will that confirm that the fuel pressure regulator is functioning properly? :dunno:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #886 on: May 04, 2017, 09:18:19 PM »
I don't have a diagram at the moment, but I believe all injectors  are before the fuel pressure regulator....

If that's the case.........   Yes.
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #887 on: May 04, 2017, 09:22:25 PM »
I'd go with this:

http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Bolt-Kit-22RE-Fuel-rail-p/1093076.htm


and use a existing gauge I have laying around, and a npt plug when I'm done.........
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #889 on: May 05, 2017, 03:50:41 AM »
I replaced a fuel pressure regulator on an '85 22re 4runner without removing anything else.  I don't remembering it being easy, but it can be done.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #890 on: May 05, 2017, 04:24:54 AM »
I replaced a fuel pressure regulator on an '85 22re 4runner without removing anything else.  I don't remembering it being easy, but it can be done.

Well... I stared at this for about 30 minutes.  I looked at the pressure regulator from every angle, and I cannot see how I can get a wrench on the hex part of the regulator to loosen it and re-tighten it.  Obviously its doable... you did it.  It needs to seat with the fuel rail very carefully and with the right amount of torque so there is no fuel leaks.  An open end wrench looks like the only tool that will work?

If there is a trick to getting to it and R&R'd without removing the chamber and throttle body, I'd like to know what it is.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:33:01 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #891 on: May 05, 2017, 09:02:01 AM »
I don't have one to look at anymore, (cough, CARB!, cough, sniff) but I remember using a wrench and hurting my hand a little bit.
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andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #892 on: May 05, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »
I envy you guys with no emissions test :(
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #893 on: May 05, 2017, 10:11:58 AM »
I envy you guys with no emissions test :(

Move :)
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andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #894 on: May 05, 2017, 10:14:04 AM »
But I love it here :) Maybe just further up into the mountains where emissions isn't required.
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #895 on: May 05, 2017, 07:45:39 PM »
But I love it here :) Maybe just further up into the mountains where emissions isn't required.

andykrow... are you at about 4500 to 5000 feet elevation?  My 22RE's work way better than my 22R engine at elevation.

Colorado is nice, and one of trail runs that I did not get to do, and everyone that I know who went there raved about the trips!  But..you couldn't blow me out of Casa Grande with hydrogen bomb!

I love the sunshine and the desert.  Obviously everything is a trade-off.... every geographic place has pluses and minuses.  The weather is a biggie for me.  On the way home this afternoon my car thermometer read 109 degrees F... felt like it too.

The good news is if we get 2 consecutive days of 100+ degrees, it will kill the flower blossoms... and reduce the "allergy season".

The desert can be a harsh place to survive. The animal life is abundant, but the survival rate is pretty low.  I've saved over a 100 honey bees from drowning in my pool, and a dozen or so baby birds from dying.  Last year I saved a baby Gecko lizard that had his leather egg sack stuck over his head.  He could barely breath.  He was about an inch and half long, very fragile.  I worked on him for about 45 minutes with a pair of cuticle scissors and a tootpick before I could get it off his head.  Funny thing is, he held still for me while I worked on him.

I rescued a baby sparrow on Wednesday. He was barely alive when I scooped him out of the pool.  I wasn't sure he was going to make it.  It took about 30 minutes in my hands to get him warmed up.  After he opened his eyes and started plucking himself, I sat him down in the sunshine on the cool deck and his Momma came almost immediately.  My wife watched him practically all day as the Momma bird fed him and tried to coax him to fly.  He finally flew into a nearby Palo Verde tree for the night just about the time the sun was setting.

I felt really good about saving another one of God's creatures.  I hope I put a nice deposit in my Karma bank.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 06:01:25 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

andykrow

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #896 on: May 06, 2017, 11:11:46 AM »
Yeah I live at 5200. We have some wheeling that gets up to 13k, and then I'll get down into the 3k area in Utah. Lots of elevation change. When I had a FJ60 that was too much for the jets. It was either good in the high country or good low, I could never get it to handle both. (Plus the mileage was ridiculously horrible for a truck that could barely do 65, haha)

We are very close to being desert here, we see 300 days of sunshine and not a lot of rain. It rarely hits 100 degrees and winter is pretty mild too. It's also never humid. If you need cold air in the dead of summer it's only an hour away. Just drive west and up!

I love the desert though. I get to Utah 2-3 times a year or more. Basically it's where we go on vacation :) I'd consider moving there but the beer situation would be upsetting.
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #897 on: May 07, 2017, 04:25:05 AM »
....I'd consider moving there but the beer situation would be upsetting.

Some people I know would not call it "beer"!  :shake:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #898 on: May 07, 2017, 04:32:28 AM »
.... Currently I am happy with the OS valves and open exhaust and I will never take that any further.


When I compare the stock valves and the 1mm over-sized valves in our current rebuilt engine specs (261C cam), my DD shows only 1 lb. average increase in torque, and a peak increase of 5 HP around 5,400 RPM with the over-sized valves.  That increase is about 3.1%.  So from those numbers, the increase in power is at the top end of the RPM range, and doesn't seem to help that much for torque at the lower RPMs.

SEE ATTACHED EXCEL SHEET.

Compare the numbers from 1000 RPM to where the over-sized valves start to show increase.

The stock valves produce more torque up to 2700 RPMs.

Again... just numbers in a computer program.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:15:31 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Lewis Hein

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #899 on: May 07, 2017, 11:07:02 AM »
Gnarls,

I have been reading this thread with interest, and one thing occurs to me about your cam that it seems no-body has mentioned. If they have, or you have already thought of it, forgive my repetitiveness.

You have been expressing doubts about the quality of this cam for a while. Others have come along insisting that theirs works fine. I'm not trying to settle this debate -- I'm sure there are people that use these cams with wonderful results.

I have also heard vague accusations around the web that Enginebldr may be cutting corners. I have no knowledge whatever of this, but if it were true, it could explain a lot. If they are cutting corners, I don't think that it would mean their cams are uniformly bad. Instead, they might be non-uniformly great. Put another way, they might not hold good tolerances, so for some particular model, 50% of their cams might be wonderful, 40% good, and 10% duds. It occurs to me that you might have got a dud (especially your much earlier comment that it seemed rough), and the good experience of others with this particular cam wouldn't mean nuthin' to the contrary.

I'm pretty sure you have had similar thoughts to what I just outlined. But coming from an outside perspective (admittedly, one that includes very little general knowledge of engine tuning), this seems like a highly possible explanation.

I am anxious to see what you find out about fuel pressure. By all means, check the cheap and easy things first. But my 2c is not to forget the cam.

Lewis.

P.S. I run a carb

 
 
 
 
 

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