Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[emsvitil]

Never seen one of those cork gaskets that didn't leak. I've used ultra grey multiple times with good results but it's a real pain to get apart. Working on a Taco 2rz right now and will be using Toyota FIPG.

Mine doesn't leak.....


But there's also Ultra-Black along with the cork...

[Gnarly4X]

Well.... Like most of you, I've read 100s of posts on the topic of sealants.

I know all the pros and cons, likes and dislike, that have been posted... a zillion times.

Everyone has their opinion and experience.  And, there are different levels of skills when installing an oil pan (i.e. bolt torque), and periodic maintenance. Based upon being around other auto enthusiasts for many years, I think I'm probably more anal about maintenance than the average guy.  I have documented that anal-ness with posts in my Corolla thread, with Blackstone test results.

There is more than one way to seal the oil pan.

Here's my take on it...

Ultra Black, Ultra Grey, or Toyota FIPG is the basically the same stuff, all rated for the same type of sealing.  My oil pan is not going to know the difference.

The Toyota purest out there have their experiences and I have mine over the past 50+ years around engines.  On most nuts and bolts, I typically use a 2 or 3 stage approach to tightening bolts and nuts that do not use a Loctite product...  a slightly less than maximum torque number, and then a very soon check and retorque, 2 or 3 times.  I have found that, for me, it works better for headers, oil pans, intake manifolds, etc. I believe that some of the torque specs in the Toyota manual are not accurate for me.  Some torque specs feel too tight, and some are too loose.  Right or wrong, I use my own experience.

When I rebuilt the engine, when I bolted on the oil pan, I took extra care to clean the pan, apply the Ultra Black and waited for the cure time, etc., etc.  One thing I do not like when applying it with no gasket is the fact that I cannot maintain a consistent level of sealant, no matter how hard I try.  So, obviously there are areas on the pan and contact with the engine block that may have less sealing pressure.

Unless my conversation with a Permatex tech has a convincing better recommendation, I will use this:

Permatex® OPTIMUM BLACK Gasket Maker

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/optimum-gasket-makers/permatex-optimum-black-gasket-maker/

– and a cork gasket.

As always, I appreciate any and all input. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I replaced the rocker cover gasket today with a Beck Arnley 036-1817.

It turns out that the oil in NOT leaking out of the rock cover, it appears to be blowing out around the distributor shaft housing passed the O-ring - which I would bet is the original and 35 years old.

I just ordered 2 from Advanced Auto Parts.

Ishino Stone Distributor O-Ring
Part # F2101137438ISH

$1.73 each.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE:  DECEMBER 4, 2021 PM

I have come to the painful acceptance that my engine is toast.  And as much as I was slightly in denial, today I know it's toast. I believe there is so much blow-by caused by the failured piston rings that the crankcase pressure is very high and blowing oil out the rocker cover gasket and burning about 1 quart of oil every 600 miles.  I will probably do a compression test just to add to painful reality.

Lessons learned:

1 – I thought I was experienced enough and smart enough to buy all quality rebuild parts from a highly reputable, well-known Toyota part supplier.  I will never buy a DNJ part again. I should have done way more research.  Trust but verify.

2 – I trusted the machine shop – a well-known and highly respected one.  I should have verified EVERY single thing they did with technical specs. Show me the paperwork.  Just to know for myself EXACTLY what was done to my block.  I have no reason to believe that the machine shop was in any way at fault for the failed piston rings.

3 – There was always a thought that I messed up the assembly and the break-in.  BUT after speaking with Jim at 22RE Performance, he said that he has seen bad piston rings, either bad metallurgy and/or insufficient ring pressure that causes the rings never to seat in the cylinder.

I also had a very reputable head shop here in Phoenix owned by a couple guys that together have over 50 years of experience building engine cylinder heads, inspect the engbldr/DNJ head, after about 15,000 miles, and they said the valves were not properly seating (all 4 exhaust valves were leaking) – probably valve seats or wrong valve face angles, and the valve springs were distorted and did not maintain their geometric shape.

Since engbldr went out of business right after I rebuilt the engine, I don't know what was done to the DNJ head and by whom.  I do know the parts in the rebuild kit were junk.

I am looking at my options to buy a new long block. Jim at 22RE Performance is not taking any orders.  I am looking at LC Engineering's Street Stroker and their website also says "Currently Unavailable / NO ETA" 

"He that can have patience can have what he will." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Gnarls.

[helipilot77]

Have you considered that now might be the right time for a 3RZ?

[Gnarly4X]

Have you considered that now might be the right time for a 3RZ?

Hi h....

That is a good question.

Yes, I have considered that engine.  But I did not dwell on it very long.  I know it's a very highly rated Toyota engine and has very nice torque and HP numbers.  It has been a very popular swap for our old pickups.

At this point in my ownership of this XtraCab (now has only 154,000 original miles) I want to keep it as stock as reasonable.

The LCE Street Stroker would probably be reliable enough to go 250K to 300K miles, which means it would probably out live me.  I think the torque and HP of that engine would be just about right for my driving style.  I would imagine it would get a little less fuel mileage than a stock 22RE but that would be a fair trade-off for the extra power.  And it would be a complete bolt-in, no modifications, fabricating, or special adapters.

My fantasy swap job would be a V-8 LS aluminum block.  That would require lots mods and fabbing, would be expensive.  BUT more fun than I should have at my age!

The most practical swap would be a Chevy 4.3L Vortec. But that would mean I would want to do a solid axle swap. That would provide an extremely reliable engine, plenty of power options, plenty of inexpensive parts, and super low maintenance.  Built for 87 octane fuel, and optional tricks like a cold-air induction kit, gas mileage costs could be as good as the LCE Street Stoker.

With anything other than a 22RE, there is always the potential for EPA laws and other State emission regulation requirements.

The 3RZ and the swap requirements has never been an engine that I got excited about.  I suppose it's mostly because I am so familiar the 22s.

Gnarls.

[helipilot77]

I can get that you would want to keep it stock. I just wanted to see where you were at.

[OVRAROK]

154k...   sounds like an auction vehicle to me.. probably fetch a pretty penny 

[Gnarly4X]

154k...   sounds like an auction vehicle to me.. probably fetch a pretty penny 

The odometer is 151,189.  However, I added some miles to it because it's had 31" and 30" tires on it since I bought it.

I don't know what it's worth to anyone, but it is in remarkably excellent condition for a 35-year old vehicle.

I do believe that there are not very many 1986 XtraCabs out there in this factory stock condition.

When I got it home from CA, I noticed it even has the 4 original factory knobs that hold down the shelf behind the seats!!

It has the original carpeting and seats.  The seats don't show hardly any wear!

Once I get the engine issue fixed, my goal is to get it restored a little more and just use it for hauling stuff my Corolla will not.

Of course, someone could make me an offer I can't refuse. 

I have a short list of restoration items.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I've been thinking... that could be very dangerous.

The other day I was saying how bummed I am about my failed engine rebuild.  My lovely wife, very intelligent and always amazes me with her insightful logic, said in her non-automotive retort "If only the rings are bad, why don't replace the rings?"  Well... I got to think'n.....

If I buy a new long block from LCE, I have to pull the engine – that's almost halfway to a rebuild, and then what am I going to do with that long block?

This rebuild only has about 17,000 miles on it.  Should I attempt another rebuild? 

With the failed engine on the engine stand, in less than 1 hour I could have it down to just the bare block.

The block would have to be inspected and re-machined. The machine shop can tell me if honing the cylinders only would be enough, but I'm thinking since I will install new Hastings pistons and rings, go ahead and bore it to 40 over with the correct RA in the cylinders for the rings. I would opt for a new camshaft, probably the Schneider 250-60F EFI cam.

A King bearing kit is only $76, so I'd replace the bearings.  The crank and rods should be OK.

I think I can do a quality rebuild for around a $1,000.  And... if it is successful, I'd have some satisfaction of feeling a little redemption, while saving some $$$. 

Any thoughts?

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

You might only  need a re-hone with new rings.............

Bearings might still be good too.

[Gnarly4X]

You might only  need a re-hone with new rings.............

Bearings might still be good too.

Hi e...

Yes.. I'm thinking the same thing.

I believe I can remove the rods and the caps without disturbing the bearings.

However, I will have to remove the mains bearing from the block and disturb them, so I'm thinking it would be wise and worth the slight extra cost to replace those bearings.

Since the bearing kit comes with all the crank bearings, I might as well replace the rod bearing as well.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

154k...   sounds like an auction vehicle to me.. probably fetch a pretty penny 

https://bit.ly/3slOX90

https://bit.ly/3GQehZ4


If that 1986 4-Runner will fetch $30K, and that 1987 shortbed will fetch $25K - then my 1986 Xtracab just jumped in value to $20,000....

.... after I rebuild the engine and park it in front of Scottsdale Porche. 

https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X]

My Sunday afternoon sucked.

I put my little 1986 22RE Xtrcab on jack stands. 

It's blowing oil out the rocker cover and the oil pan. – too much crankcase pressure from the failed rings.

I've started putting money into my Rebuild Engine #2 Project.

It appears right now Jim at 22RE Performance is not taking any orders and LC Engineering's site is showing "No ETA" on a long block.

Looks like it will be a long winter and perhaps a bummer of a spring.

Gnarls.

[GeorgiaBoy]

Pull the pistons and see what you find. Worse case would be new rings, rod bearings and a head gasket. I may have missed it but did it have lots of blowby from the start?

[Gnarly4X]

Pull the pistons and see what you find. Worse case would be new rings, rod bearings and a head gasket. I may have missed it but did it have lots of blowby from the start?

Hey G....

Good question.  The engine was burning/using about 1 quart of oil every 600 miles. I drove the truck the same way every day, 5 days a week, so I had very good tracking data.

Oddly, there was no "smoke". No smoke at cold starts, and no smoke during normal driving. I could see a little smoke if I took it to 5,000 RPMs, but it was hardly visible.

The engine ran good with the engbldr head with over-sized valves and the 261 cam, lots of torque and it would rev easily to 5,500.

After about 5,000 miles I realized the oil consumption was not going down, and it stayed about the same until it blew a head gasket.  I had an excellent conversation with Jim at 22RE Performance, and he said "It's bad rings".  The DNJ rebuild kit from engnbldr was Chicom JUNK!! I analyzed, in my unscientific terms, the failed head gasket in this thread.  I then made a decision to pull the head and have it inspected by a very reputable cylinder head company here. None of the exhaust valves were sealing, the valve springs were badly distorted.  John, the shop owner, has been building cylinder heads for over 25 years, he suspected that the valves and valve seats were never correctly installed or properly spec'd.   Under the conditions of my engine burning oil, and that I didn't want to pull the engine for a re-rebuild yet, he suggested a new stock head, since rebuilding the engnbldr head would be about twice the cost.  The shop ordered me a stock 22RE head, and they said my stock cam was fine to re-install.  It ran OK for a few 1000 miles and then it started to show high crankcase pressure.  The stock head and stock cam produced noticeably less torque and throttle response.

I know I could do a quick and dirty engine rebuild, but at this point, being north of $5K into this engine, plus I have some doubts about my limited engine building skills, so I'm leaning towards buying a long block.

I have all the tools and equipment, however dropping the tranny and pulling the engine is REALLY hard on my old body, so I will only do it one more time.

Gnarls.

[252chad]

 

[toyodaaddict]

You might only  need a re-hone with new rings.............

Bearings might still be good too.

Pull the pistons and see what you find. Worse case would be new rings, rod bearings and a head gasket. I may have missed it but did it have lots of blowby from the start?

Gnarls.

I have a question for you guys. Say you have a fresh rebuild and it burns some oil. You want to run it anyway and at some point the oil consumption increases and you want to repair it. Any idea how many miles you could run a motor and still get away with re ringing it? And in a situation like this, where new rings are the fix, can you expect to re hone the cylinders and not have to go up in ring size?

(Sorry to ask silly questions in your thread Gnarly. I know you like to talk motors, so I assume you wouldn't mind)

[GeorgiaBoy]

Japanese blocks are made well with good metal. On a fresh an correct hone job, providing you don't find anything to raise an eyebrow at...........I would be comfortable with 5k but that is just me. I have done lots of Honda and Nissan engines ( in my younger days--can't believe I said that!).

[Gnarly4X]

I have a question for you guys. Say you have a fresh rebuild and it burns some oil. You want to run it anyway and at some point the oil consumption increases and you want to repair it. Any idea how many miles you could run a motor and still get away with re ringing it? And in a situation like this, where new rings are the fix, can you expect to re hone the cylinders and not have to go up in ring size?

(Sorry to ask silly questions in your thread Gnarly. I know you like to talk motors, so I assume you wouldn't mind)

Good question.

I did some research on the options to do a re-rebuild.

I believe there are 3 types: 
1 – quick & dirty
2 – DIY again with more smarts
3 – Professional

Every time I looked at the "quick & dirty" option, for example  – just barely doing what needs to be done – re-ring job after 5,000 miles if rings are not sealing. I always came back to pulling an engine down is too much work NOT to rebuild right - Option #2.

Then there is the "why" did the rings not seal? Lots of possible reasons.  And, that should to be determined before going any further forward.  Analyzing the reason is not as simple as it may seem.  Was it the bore, hone, cross-hatching, RA, pistons, rings, piston-to-bore size, improper break-in, was the engine over-heated, improper assembly.

Since rings are typically the first target, were they the wrong material, the wrong static ring pressure, out of spec ring grooves, wrong side clearance, too little/too much back clearance, improperly installed.

The piston and ring manufacturers like Mahle, Hastings, Power Seal, Precision, Total Seal, KB, etc., all have their specs and recommended machine work – RA/cross hatch angle.

Matching the pistons and rings to the machine work on the block is critical.  If a quality long mileage engine rebuild is the goal, then pinching pennies at the machine shop and the pistons and rings is borderline really stupid.

Yes...you can do a budget rebuild over a weekend engine. Guys do it all the time. Some are successful. BUT... how many of those guys then post on a forum "My engine won't idle", "My rebuild is making noise", "My engine won't start". My engine won't rev passed 3500 RPMs", and the list goes on.

There is a reason it takes Jim at 22RE Performance 40 hours to build a long block.   - Option #3.

That's just my perspective at this point in my engine rebuild experience.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I woke up this thinking about this..

toyodaaddict and GeorgiaBoy....

Early in mileage when I determined the rings are most likely bad and not sealing, it was suggested to me to try something without having to pull the engine.

At the time I was too upset to really give it good thought.

So... it is possible to pull the head, drop the oil pan, remove one rod cap at a time (or two if they are in the same position on the crank, push the piston out of the deck enough to install new rings, push it back down and reinstall the rod caps, the head and oil pan??

It that feasible or not? 

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Worth a try.......

[Gnarly4X]

Worth a try.......

Is it WORTH a try??

After pulling the head on 22RE I believe I would only be 2 or 3 hours away from pulling the engine, and then properly rebuilding it from scratch.

That's what I keep coming back to in my mind.  I don't want to risk another failed attempt by my own making.

A new long block from a reputable Toyota engine builder is my next move to get my truck running again.

Gnarls.

[toyodaaddict]

I feel like I'm missing something in all this. If an engine has been rebuilt (still low miles), is burning oil and needs repair. What is to be gained from re doing all the work that has just been done?  I'm still learning and have only done one rebuild (with Zippo helping assemble the bottom end ) but it seems to me that anything other than addressing the cylinders, rings and maybe crank/rod bearings (can they be safely removed/reinstalled?) is just doing the same work twice. If the block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. are all fresh why mess with them?

I would love to see you find a cost effective way to repair this engine. If there is one, I don't know. However, considering your age and how long you have been dealing with this, buying a long block from 22REP and being done, doesn't sound like a bad option. Especially if you can afford it.

[GeorgiaBoy]

Pulling the head and oil pan is certainly an option. I have done many Honda's this way. If they have a blown head gasket and 100-150000 miles the old rings will not be happy. New rings and rod bearings, hone job, new t-belt and wp---good to go. I have never seen one that needed mains even at 250k if they halfway changed the oil. I know it sounds shade tree but I have had good experience with it. I buy every civic i can find with a bad head gasket and go thru it, clean it up and put a for sale sign on it. Helps put the kids through school! I drive a long way to work and I got a 04 civic with a blown head gasket for a grand. Spent about 400 on parts and was gonna just flip it. Started driving it to work to make sure it was good to go before I sold it and that was 4 years ago! 36mpg is hard to beat when you drive a lot to work. But I still drive my Yota some and it is much more fun!

[Gnarly4X]

Hey t.....

As I mentioned it took me 3 years to save up the money for what I thought was going to be fairly easy, often done rebuild.

Yeah.. it's been a real bummer for me.  I've lost lots of sleep over it.

Here's my thinking....  and I could be wrong.

I don't know for sure why the engine was using oil 1 quart of oil every 600 miles.

I DO know why it blew a head gasket.... Chicom junk.  https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100729.0;message=1163383

Most of the DNJ engine rebuild kit from engbldr was junk.

It has been suggested by an expert Toyota engine builder that he believes it's the Chicom junk rings with either insufficient spring pressure or bad metallurgy.

BUT... I won't know 100% until the rings and the block are inspected and mic'd by a professional.

I don't even know for sure what the ring manufacture's (DNJ?) specs are for the RA in the cylinders.  I assumed they were moly. I basically trusted the machine shop's expertise, since they had the block, all the parts, during their machining, sonic test, and magnaflux.

It is possible I fubar'd the assembly?  Or, I completely blew the break-in?

What if I do the ring job and it's the wrong bore, hone, or RA?

As I said, after removing the head, I'm only 2 to 4 hours away from pulling the engine.

I can afford to buy a quality long block, but it's a $4k or $5 investment.

I do NOT want to go through another rebuild and have it fail after I did a ring job or a full rebuild myself – even if I go completely OCD anal and verify double check EVERY single thing that is done to the block machining, buy the best parts, and mic'd & measured and expertly assembly, and follow the expert recommended break-in procedure.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Pulling the head and oil pan is certainly an option. I have done many Honda's this way. If they have a blown head gasket and 100-150000 miles the old rings will not be happy. New rings and rod bearings, hone job, new t-belt and wp---good to go. I have never seen one that needed mains even at 250k if they halfway changed the oil. I know it sounds shade tree but I have had good experience with it. I buy every civic i can find with a bad head gasket and go thru it, clean it up and put a for sale sign on it. Helps put the kids through school! I drive a long way to work and I got a 04 civic with a blown head gasket for a grand. Spent about 400 on parts and was gonna just flip it. Started driving it to work to make sure it was good to go before I sold it and that was 4 years ago! 36mpg is hard to beat when you drive a lot to work. But I still drive my Yota some and it is much more fun!

Hey G....

Yeah... I know you guys do this all the time very successfully. 

I'm not an engine builder, and it's painfully obvious. 

Gnarls.

[Cheesemaker]

Gnarls, I bought a longblock from a well known engine rebuilder locally.  Great price, and he knew his .  Well, after 35k miles in 10 years (I live 2 miles from work) it blew a headgasket.  I had a buddy who does engines all the time, help with the headgasket.  Things went easy, and I learned all about what to do.  Fast forward 3 years, it blew again.  And all the parts were from Putney, and block was checked, head was machined.  It came to my attention that that motor was built with ALL Evergreen parts.  The freeze plugs were leaking from the get go, and the front main has always leaked from day one. 

So, when it went the 2nd time, I had enough with that motor, it was cursed.  Now I bought and installed a overly built motor, I took out the MLS headgasket, and inner valve springs, and a TRD stg 2 cam.  With stock headgasket, and stock cam.  And now I feel better about the motor in my baby.  I do have another spare motor I need to put together, and have as a backup.  For just in case.  My headache of a motor, I will probably put a new headgasket in it, bolt it up, and sell it off to somebody. 


As for your situation, my thought process, after going through mine, would be this.  Go ahead and bust out the bottom and top end.  Check the cylinders, and pistons, this would give you a very clear idea of what's happening.  Pop in new rings, or cylinders, bolt it back up, and run it.  And as soon a Putney or LCE starts taking orders, get one!  I say this, because its getting harder to find good quality rebuilds.  And as much as I hate crawling over and under my rig anymore, like you, if an motor bites it, swap it.  And they can be swapped in a day easy.  Just my  from my experience. 

[sirdeuce]

Yeah, I see you used the early gasket, you need the late "pear" shape port gasket as liveoak pictured. For the exhaust? Don't use the FIPG. Find the reason your gaskets are failing. If your mating surfaces are flat look into an MLS or copper gasket. And definitely check your torque.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey C.....

Thank you for the input. 

Your experience is not unusual, as we have read thousands of posts on this subject over the years.

The alloy head bolted to a cast iron block is not necessarily a real compatible couple – coefficient of thermal expansion differential.

10 years before a head gasket failure is probably a good number.  Any mileage after 100,000 on a head gasket is a plus.

Only 3 years on a head gasket sucks.

Parts.. they all come with opinions.  As I have mentioned, the engbldr DNJ rebuild kit was ALL Chicom junk. The head gasket, oil pump, rocker cover gasket, freeze plugs, head, and the RINGS!

Thinking you know is not knowing.... I did not know enough and believed what "reputable" people told me... my bad!

If I were back in my 50's I'd tackle another re-rebuild and see if I could successfully rebuild an engine.  BUT at 74, a few of my old body parts inflicts some serious pain after being in the garage and under my truck for more than a couple hours.

I want to get a long block from LCE or 22RE Performance.  It will take me way more than a day to do the swap.

Most of the time when I'm working in the garage, I'm in 4-Low.  After the swap, I don't know what I will do with this engine.

I can hardly wait for this thread to have a happy ending!

Gnarls.