Topic: Advanced Theology II

[BLACKDOG]

Actually, the word "Sabbath" shows up on the NKJV in Exodus chapter 16.

Genesis 2:1-4 “Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.  And on the seventh-day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh-day from all His work which He had done.  Then God blessed the seventh-day and sanctified [made the day holy] it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

I can’t imagine that God required any form of rest, mental, emotional or physical, so it is logical that He rested as an example of what He wanted us to do.  The example is for us to rest from our weekly activities.

Mark 2:27-28 “And He said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.’”

This text comes up often to prove that man is not bound by the Sabbath, but I believe that it really means that the Sabbath was made for us to be a blessing. 

Genesis 8:10-12 “And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark.  Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew the waters had receded from the earth.  So he waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, which did not return again to him anymore.”

This text doesn’t specifically reference the Sabbath or a sanctified holy day, but it does indicate that the weekly cycle from creation was still being followed.

Exodus 16:4 “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you.  And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.  And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.’”

Exodus 16: 22-23 “And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one.  And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.  Then he said to them, ‘This is what the Lord has said, “Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, and holy Sabbath to the Lord.  Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.”’”

Exodus 16:25-30 “Then Moses said, ‘Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it again in the field.  Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’”

Exodus 16 makes it very clear that the Sabbath was know prior to the Ten Commandments being given at Sinai.  God performed a miracle every day for 40 years to feed Isreal with manna.  Five days a week the manna appeared on the ground and spoiled over night, but on the sixth day they were instructed to gather twice as much because it didn’t not appear on the seventh day and it did not spoil.

Could the highlighted verse be both ways?  I believe it can.  I belive it could very well be that I am missing out on blessings because I don't worship per se on Saturday. (the original Sabbath)  An odd thing to acknowledge, for sure, but I can concede that it is very possible.  One of the things I struggle with personally (and we had a good message about it at a church we just visited this Sunday, go figure ) is tithing.  I have no doubt that I am missing out on God's blessing in that arena, yet I am still able to come up with some excuse (no $$, forgot checkbook, next week, etc. )  for not tithing how I am supposed to.  This I accredit to my human(sin) nature.

In all reality, Christ made things very easy for us.  it is difficult in many ways to make the Bible relatable to today, due to the advances in technology and society in general.  One thing that comes to mind is wheeling.  bd, you have mentioned that you choose to avoid the "harder" trails on the Sabbath.  Now I may not be as well read as I'd like to be, but I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't cover wheeling.   :disturbed:How do we know what constitutes "work?"   In the Bible, the people weren't allowed to even collect food on Sat, or cook.  Granted, this is comparing apples and oranges, but that is my point.  In this arena, there is a lot of room for interpretation.  Does a child playing soccer violate the sabbath?  I could say no, because that child is enjoying the gifts God gave him, and is worshipping him through the use of those gifts.  I could also say yes, because that child is physically exerting himself on a day that is designated for rest.
The same thing goes for employment.  We are not supposed to work on the Sabbath, but in the New Testament (forgive me if this is not entirely correct) Jesus says something along the lines of people being allowed to work on the Sabbath in occupations that do good?  I beleive this is what the SDA use to "excuse"  Firefighters, police officers, doctors, etc. ?  Does this still mean though, that a police officer should not be as aggressive as he would be on other days in busting crime?   

This one is kind of smart but I am curious to know your answer bd.  Would you say that if I were to take my truck wheeling on an easy trail on the Sabbath, with my leaky power steering pump reservoir almost empty, making me work hard to turn the truck, and thus rendering the trail more difficult, that I would be sinning, but if it were full, and I could turn my truck with ease, that I would not be? 

Just curious to what you think


These are all just some thoughts running through my head.  bd, I think you know that I am not trying to nitpick your beliefs, but for some of you others, please understand these are curious questions that come to mind when discussing this topic, and are not meant to diminish your beliefs in anyway. 

When you say sin is sin to one person and maybe not the other... as in drinking... I disagree... sin is sin. Its all sin and its all equal in Gods eyes.. we dont determine what is and what is not sin.

Chim, I would disagree with you to a point here.  I believe that there can be someting that is a sin for one person, but not for another.  Drinking is a good example.  Drunkeness is a sin, but having a beer is not.  however, if a person has an alcohol dependency, then for him, drinking a beer could easily be a sin, because it is allowing his dependence on alcohol to come between him and God.  There are many things that God is very clear on (fornication, gluttony, drunkeness) but for everything he is crystal clear on, there are many things that he is not, but that he leaves to the individual to interpret WITH THE GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.  An example would be bd's choice to wheel easier trails on the Sabbath.  perhaps he could go wheeling with another SDA member, who also feels this same way.  However, this othee member could be more experienced, and have a much better built rig (comp buggy lets say) and therefore, his level of "easy" trails is much higher than bd's.  Does that mean he is sinning, because he isn't taking bd's version of "easy?" do you understand what I mean?  

On to something new that doesn't apply to much that has been discussed but I currently need help with: My wheeling buddy tells me that he doesn't think he believes in God anytime I bring up religion. What am I supposed to say to him? He has been one of my best friends for quite a few years now, and I would hate to ruin it all now. I guess I don't make friends easily, because most of the kids that I know party all of the time, and I am not into that. Plus many of them don't like wheeling, they just like to go and tear up the land in their high powered destroy-the-land-mobiles (I don't consider this wheeling). In other words, I don't want to lose my good friend over religious beliefs. Should I just not bring it up? Or what? Sometimes it really bothers me that he tells me this stuff, and it makes me feel like I should try to spread the Word to him, but I don't know if I am ready to take on this challenge. Ideas? Thanks in advance for any responses to this even though it is way off topic.

KDXSR5, keep in mind, that Jesus told us to go and speak to all nations.  That is our command.  He didn't tell us to convert people, but rather to make sure that they hear the message.  A person's salvation is between him and God, we are simply God's tools.  It is your job to make it known to him of where you stand, and to give him the opportunity to know God himself.  It is up to him if he takes the opportunity.  Keep in mind as well, even if you don't see any change, you may have planted a seed that will flourish many years down the road.  By him knowing that you are a believer, and having had you present him with the Truth, you have done your job.  You should still reach out when the opportunities arise, but if you have spoken with him on the subject, you have fulfilled the great commission.

BigMike,  no apology is necessary.  I truly enjoy being able to come to this forum and discuss things like this with people like minded, and not as like minded.  It gives me the opprtunity and encouragment to read deeper into my own faith, and get to know God better myself.  I would like to hear what you believe, as you mentioned above.



I apologize to all for the sporadicness of this post.  I was not on the board much this weekend, and wanted to do a quick catch up, and of course, found several things to comment on. 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

BD,  The only way that I see Mark 2:27-28 "And He said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath,'" being understood to mean that the Sabbath commandment is no longer binding is to presuppose that the Ten Commandments are no longer applicable, or valid.  Anyone that assumes that the Ten Commandments are still binding wouldn't reach the conclusion that this undid the Sabbath.

As for what is "ok" to do on Sabbath, a group of friends and I studied this very carefully and only came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit has to convict individuals.  My reason for generally avoiding the technical trails on Sabbath has nothing to do with physical rest, but if my full focus is on the technical aspects of wheeling how can I really enjoy nature, family and time with God?  There are translations that say," thou shalt no do thy own work," which makes it easier to understand for me.  God wants us to set a day aside from our normal activities to spent time resting and growing in our relationship with Him, this process is different for everyone.  An office worker may need to go for a hike, for example, when a construction worker may prefer sitting on the couch.  I don't work on Sabbath, but I'm open to phone calls if I have needed information for others to be productive.  How can my Sabbath be seen as a blessing by others if it constantly puts them in a bind?  My wife is a PA and does work on Sabbath on a rotational basis.  Admittedly, I sometimes wonder where the line is between helping people and "working" is and again it is an individual conviction.  If a co-worker was planning to work on Saturday for something important and came down sick at the last minute, I suspect I would be willing to fill in.

As far as tithing, I can assure you that it is a blessing.  There are even financial advisors that will recommend an 80/10/10 plan (10% Savings & 10% Charity) because they know it changes people to donate to a cause that benefits something.  I personally give both tithes (God asks for 10% of our income) and offering (because I'm thankful).  I know many people that double tithe, but I have chosen 13% total because it is approximately 1/7th of my income to match the Sabbath principle.  God doesn't promise that we will have everything that we "want" but He does promise to give us what we need.

Done rambling...

[chim]

If you say that some things are sin to one person but not another... then who is the judge??? I could say that flirting as a married man is not a sin to me.. but maybe its a sin to you?? Or what about fighting... fighting to me is a sin... but to you its not?? Who is the ultimate judge? Does God say to us... listen here.. for you this will be a sin.. but for you.. its not a sin.. no.. that makes no sense! God determines sin.. and sin is sin.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

If you say that some things are sin to one person but not another... then who is the judge??? I could say that flirting as a married man is not a sin to me.. but maybe its a sin to you?? Or what about fighting... fighting to me is a sin... but to you its not?? Who is the ultimate judge? Does God say to us... listen here.. for you this will be a sin.. but for you.. its not a sin.. no.. that makes no sense! God determines sin.. and sin is sin.

On the surface I agree with you, but in practice it's difficult to apply.  I believe that the Bible contains an absolute truth and we as believers need to be constantly working towards discovering that perfect truth.  I also believe that we are held accountable for the knowledge that we have and the knowledge that we had the opportunity to learn and chose to ignore.  To a certain point man has the ability to judge actions, but only God can judge the heart and a persons motive.  Let's take an example:

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." NKJV

Now the question is what is the absolute truth containted in this commandment?  Obviously, it is a sin for me to walk into a place of business and shoot a random person, but is it wrong to kill someone in war?  Are there situations in war where it would be wrong?  Am I justifed to kill in time of war simply because a superior officer gives the order?  Christ expands on this verse and tells us that hate (i.e. wishing someone was dead) is the same as murder.

Discussion like this can go on for ever, and this commandment is probably one of the most simple of them all.  This, I believe is where the gift of grace is so amazing and important.  We are only accountable for what the Holy Spirit has convicted us and the rest is covered under grace.  I believe that we are responsible to ask forgiveness for the sins that we know about, but it is impossible to ask forgiveness for every sin we commit.

This is partially why the Mosiac laws were so complicated, they were setting the boundaries in such a way to create a buffer zone to ensure they didn't error.  The end result was extreme legalism that can also rob a person of the freedom that God brings.

When we get to heaven it will be eye opening and amazing to spent eternity learning about God, His Love, His Mercy, and His Law.

Does this make any more sense?

[chim]

You are right, we can go round and round.. but I do believe that God says that sin is sin... although we see some as worse than others.. God doesnt. Good thing we are forgiven.

[BLACKDOG]

BD,  The only way that I see Mark 2:27-28 "And He said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath,'" being understood to mean that the Sabbath commandment is no longer binding is to presuppose that the Ten Commandments are no longer applicable, or valid.  Anyone that assumes that the Ten Commandments are still binding wouldn't reach the conclusion that this undid the Sabbath.

As for what is "ok" to do on Sabbath, a group of friends and I studied this very carefully and only came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit has to convict individuals.  My reason for generally avoiding the technical trails on Sabbath has nothing to do with physical rest, but if my full focus is on the technical aspects of wheeling how can I really enjoy nature, family and time with God?  There are translations that say," thou shalt no do thy own work," which makes it easier to understand for me.  God wants us to set a day aside from our normal activities to spent time resting and growing in our relationship with Him, this process is different for everyone.  An office worker may need to go for a hike, for example, when a construction worker may prefer sitting on the couch.  I don't work on Sabbath, but I'm open to phone calls if I have needed information for others to be productive.  How can my Sabbath be seen as a blessing by others if it constantly puts them in a bind?  My wife is a PA and does work on Sabbath on a rotational basis.  Admittedly, I sometimes wonder where the line is between helping people and "working" is and again it is an individual conviction.  If a co-worker was planning to work on Saturday for something important and came down sick at the last minute, I suspect I would be willing to fill in.
As far as tithing, I can assure you that it is a blessing.  There are even financial advisors that will recommend an 80/10/10 plan (10% Savings & 10% Charity) because they know it changes people to donate to a cause that benefits something.  I personally give both tithes (God asks for 10% of our income) and offering (because I'm thankful).  I know many people that double tithe, but I have chosen 13% total because it is approximately 1/7th of my income to match the Sabbath principle.  God doesn't promise that we will have everything that we "want" but He does promise to give us what we need.

Done rambling...

  gotcha!  and actually, I fully agree with that, in all aspects of my beliefs.  I do not agree with what I see as an over emphasis of the Sabbath (no offense intended) but I also do not feel in anyway convicted in that arena.  I worship God everyday, and praise him everyday for the things he has blessed me with.  There may come a day in my life and in my spiritual growth that I will become convicted about worshipping on Sat.  If that is the case, then I will gladly worship on that day instead.  Until that time, I may be wrong in my beliefs, and if that is the case, thank God we have His grace and his forgiveness huh?  We all fall short, and there is no doubt of that. 

As for tithing, I am fully aware that I am missing out on God's blessing.  I have been making some big changes in my life recently, putting more faith in God, and he has been blessing me for it.  I am planning on tithing this weekend at church, and am praying for the strength and will to get in that habit. 

If you say that some things are sin to one person but not another... then who is the judge??? I could say that flirting as a married man is not a sin to me.. but maybe its a sin to you?? Or what about fighting... fighting to me is a sin... but to you its not?? Who is the ultimate judge? Does God say to us... listen here.. for you this will be a sin.. but for you.. its not a sin.. no.. that makes no sense! God determines sin.. and sin is sin.

reading this statement, I don't beleive I made myself clear.  I apologize for that.  It is not up to us to decide what is sin, and what is not.  There are things God is very clear on that are sins.  Examples being fornication, drunkeness, greed, hate, and the list goes on.  However, there are things that I believe the Holy Spirit will convict individuals about, that may not be a conviction for everyone.  You use fighting as an example.  First of all, what do you define as fighting?  If you are fighting in anger, or hate, then yes, I would agree it is a sin.  What about boxing though, or someone taking karate classes, does that fall under the sin of fighting? 
Since I don't know your beliefs concerning this, pretend for a moment that the activity of boxing itself is not a sin.  if a man is boxing, and sees it as a recreational activity, and as an activity to improve his physical fitness, and keeps his emotions under control, then I don't believe he is sinning.  However, if a man is unable to keep his emotions under control, and becomes angry and hateful toward his opponent, then that activity is leading him to sin. 

Alcohol is another example.  if a man is prone to addiction, and anytime he drinks, he gets drunk, then he is sinning.  however, if a man chooses to have an alcoholic beverage occasionally, and doesn't allow himself to get drunk, then he is not sinning.  The activity of drinking alcohol itself is not a sin, but the possible results can be. 

Does that clarify what I mean at all?  I hope it does.  By no means did I mean to sound as if I believe that we get to choose what is right and wrong.  God has laid down the ground rules concerning sin, and the Holy Spirit will convict us if we are violating those ground rules, or heading that direction with an activity that is not necessarily specified. 

[93tonkatoy]

Sounds like BD said it better than I did. But, I agree.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Today at church the pastor mentioned a text that reminded me of some of our discussion and none of us had come up with the specific text.

In past discussion the thought that certain actions can be wrong/sin for one person but not someone else.  I THINK it was Chim that didn't agree with this idea.

In any case, James 4:17 says, "Therefore, to him who know to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."

The text only specifically covers one side of the arguement, that we are responsible to do what we know is right, but I think it isn't a stretch to understand from the text that we are not held responsible for things we don't understand, don't know, or have not been convicted to do.

On a different subject, also from the sermon today, did you know that when David "stole" Bathsheba and had her husband killed he nearly had a Uzza experience?  The punishment for his sin was losing four of his sons, but the Lord very nearly killed him on the spot.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord."  And Nathan said to David, 'The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"

We know that David did die eventually and is one of the great men in the Bible, but it appears that if he hadn't repented of that particulal it may have been the end of David.

I thought it was an interesting perspective.  What do you think?     

[chim]

Im not sure what you are getting at with the responsibility of sin... I didnt understand the comment...

I seem to remember that Davids repentance was not immediate... that it ate at him for a while...

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Im not sure what you are getting at with the responsibility of sin... I didnt understand the comment...

I seem to remember that Davids repentance was not immediate... that it ate at him for a while...

In past discussion the topic of something being sin for one person and not another has been touched on.  An example might be drinking might be a sin for one person and not another.

Davids repentance wasn't immediate, just as you remember, but he did repent when confronted directly by the prophet Nathan.  At that point Nathan tell him that he will not die.  It was sort of like a last chance to repent.

More clear?

[BLACKDOG]

In past discussion the topic of something being sin for one person and not another has been touched on.  An example might be drinking might be a sin for one person and not another.

Davids repentance wasn't immediate, just as you remember, but he did repent when confronted directly by the prophet Nathan.  At that point Nathan tell him that he will not die.  It was sort of like a last chance to repent.

More clear?

Not really.  I too am kind of confused by the relationship between the two? 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Not really.  I too am kind of confused by the relationship between the two? 

Two sepearate thoughts.

Today at church the pastor mentioned a text that reminded me of some of our discussion and none of us had come up with the specific text.

In past discussion the thought that certain actions can be wrong/sin for one person but not someone else.  I THINK it was Chim that didn't agree with this idea.

In any case, James 4:17 says, "Therefore, to him who know to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."

The text only specifically covers one side of the arguement, that we are responsible to do what we know is right, but I think it isn't a stretch to understand from the text that we are not held responsible for things we don't understand, don't know, or have not been convicted to do.

On a different subject, also from the sermon today, did you know that when David "stole" Bathsheba and had her husband killed he nearly had a Uzza experience?  The punishment for his sin was losing four of his sons, but the Lord very nearly killed him on the spot.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord."  And Nathan said to David, 'The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"

We know that David did die eventually and is one of the great men in the Bible, but it appears that if he hadn't repented of that particulal it may have been the end of David.

I thought it was an interesting perspective.  What do you think?     

Key words in RED.

 

[BLACKDOG]

Gotcha.  It just seemed like you were trying to relate the two.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

NEW TOPIC

This afternoon I was doing some reading and came across something that I thought I would post.  Read the following verses:

Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Mat 10:32-36  Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.  (33)  But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.  (34)  Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.  (35)  For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.  (36)  And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.

I believe that these verses say that God has promised us peace as individual believers, but is clear that "world peace" is not part of his plan.  With this in mind I pose the following questions:

(1) Should we expect Christians to be at peace with the world?

(2) Should we expect different religions to become accepting over time of the beliefs that other religions hold?

(3) Should we expect world religious leaders to focus on the "common ground?"

[germ]

1. No. They should be at peace with themselves.
2. No. They are too egotisticle (sp?) and would loose "influence"
3. No. It would distract them from their dogma.

I think BD touched on it earlier. It is our individual relationship with the Lord that will grant us salvation. It is not (IMHO) which religion you belong to. I joined the Adventist Church because from what I could see, they taught the Bible, pure and simple, and there was not much "church doctrine" that needed to be followed in order to be a member. I think it is very easy to get caught up in the dogma of a church and loose sight of the message that is held in the Bible. This is where people will loose their salvation as they follow to the letter the "rules" of the church, but don't follow the teachings of the Bible and establish and develop a relationship with the Lord.

Erik

[Trunkz]

It has been a while since there was an active thread on the board that discussed religion.  Personally, I enjoyed the discussions because they were more “open” than I have found discussions to be on the Christian boards.  Most of the discussion seem to suffer from "Holy Roller" syndrome. 

I will start this discussion with a couple of questions.

(1) Do you believe that the devil, or his evil angels/spirits, actually exists and is a real live personal being?

(2) Do you believe that the devil can influence your life, or thoughts? 

(3) Do you believe in devil, or spirit, possession?

(4) Do you believe that we, as humans, have the right to “cast” the devil, or evil spirits, out of people that are possessed?

I have been reading a series of books written by a man that was personally involved in spirit worship, also known as devil worship, that tell about his experience and his life after becoming a Christian.  Blackdog has read the first book that he wrote.

Last night I read a chapter in one of the books where he explained his belief that we, as humans, do not have the right to “cast” the devil out of possessed people.  Instead he believes that we are to pray that the Holy Spirit will rebuke the devil. 

This was new to me.  I am in the process of looking at this topic a little more in depth.  What do you think?

 

1. the devil exsist but not in a corporial form as we know it, he wont take that roll till the antichrist is killed (and the dragon had seven heads and one of the heads hung as if dead (close enough... dont remember it word for word off top of head))
2. the way that the devil can influence your life and faults is through temptation (the devil tempted Jesus several times while jesus was fasting in the desert for 40 days)
3. yes "they call us legion for we are many" and jesus cast out the demons who inhabited swine which ran into the sea and were drowned...
4. no, not in the catholic church sense (not that i dont have a lot of problems with the catholic church lol) God through Jesus has the only power to drive out demons, in essense this makes the "inhabited" his own excorsist

The earlier generations thing is throwing me off.  It isn't saying the same thing  to me. 

*EDIT*

Read through the original post and saw this   its clearer now, but the wording still doesn't make sense to me?  Earlier generations  

Sorry, can you try to explain that a little better? 

one theory (and its just a theory) that me and some buddies from church have come up with are that the Earlier generations are the nephram (sp?) the giants, the giants were washed from the earth during the flood, goliath was of the giants, ill have to dig up my notes on this at some point but it was fairly in depth


or maybe ill wait for the next go around on the christianity thread and jump in on the beginning lol...

[BLACKDOG]

or maybe ill wait for the next go around on the christianity thread and jump in on the beginning lol...

Topic changes all the time, feel free to jump in  

[blackdiamond [OP]]

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47553.new#new