Author Topic: Advanced Theology II (Read 31053 times)

blackdiamond · « **Reply #60 on:** Nov 06, 2006, 09:19:09 PM »

Quote from: notajeep on Nov 06, 2006, 09:08:14 PM

I am going to throw in a side topic.
If Faith is all we need to be "saved", and Christ said: I am the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except by me". and "you must be baptised by water and by fire or you can in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven" (that might not be exact, but you get the point.)
What about all the people who lived before christ, not of the family of abraham, and what about all of the billions of chinese people who have never heard of christ? Are these people screwed? Does God not care about them? They didn't \ don't have any faith in Christ. They were certainly not baptised. How can you account for these people? If there is no second chance after death, there are a very large number of God's children that will not be "saved".

Why are you assuming that the family of Abraham didn't need to be baptized to be saved while it is a requirement for the rest of the world?

I believe that we are held responsible to live by the "light" we are given, but admittedly it is difficult to support with the Bible.

notajeep · « **Reply #61 on:** Nov 06, 2006, 09:50:34 PM »

I wasn't assuming that the family of abraham didn't need any thing that others do. I was just trying NOT to imply that they didn't know of Christ before his birth, thats all.

chim · « **Reply #62 on:** Nov 08, 2006, 07:26:45 AM »

Abrahams faith was counted as righteousness before he went to offer up Jacob... and yet he wasnt baptized... baptism is not essential to salvation... its just the outword manifestation of an inward decision. I believe that there are not many places left that havent actually heard of Christ. And the BIble says that God manifests himself in nature byt the things that are clearly seen. So.. even after all that... I believe that God is a just God, and he will handle those who honeslty have never heard... but then again.. im not really sure how many actually havent heard.

blackdiamond · « **Reply #63 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 05:36:52 PM »

I didn't realize how long it had been since this thread was active. Kind of sad actually.

In any case, I recently found out that some of my friends parents that were very nearly family growing up have left the SDA church. My friend, their son, died a couple of years ago from cancer and the family has been in a "tail spin" ever since.

I have started an email discussion with them to see what beliefs they retained and which ones they kept. It is really sad, but I can already see that "threw out the cart with the horse" and the original reason was that the church members and pastors were not able to provide the needed support in their time of need. It hurtss to see relidgious beliefs changed by pure emotion.

In any case, please pray for me and them. They are still hurting alot from the death of their son and now they are likely being "condemned" by many of their friends for leaving the church. They seemed very appreciative that I would address my concern for them personally and seem happy to dialogue about things.

It should be fun, but talking about the "state of the dead" which is one of the things that have changed will be difficult with death being so close to home for them.

BLACKDOG · « **Reply #64 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 07:22:10 PM »

You got it bd

Quote from: notajeep on Nov 06, 2006, 09:08:14 PM

I am going to throw in a side topic.
If Faith is all we need to be "saved", and Christ said: I am the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except by me". and "you must be baptised by water and by fire or you can in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven" (that might not be exact, but you get the point.)
What about all the people who lived before christ, not of the family of abraham, and what about all of the billions of chinese people who have never heard of christ? Are these people screwed? Does God not care about them? They didn't \ don't have any faith in Christ. They were certainly not baptised. How can you account for these people? If there is no second chance after death, there are a very large number of God's children that will not be "saved".

Simply put, at least I think it is, before Christ came, there was a different set of "rules" to go by. If you followed those "rules" then you were going to go to heaven (preforming the proper sacrifices, etc.) Christ came as the ulitmate sacrifice, so that we wouldn't have to stand by the old rules anymore. They still had to live by faith, and did so.

Actually chim, a lot of the world is still "in the dark" so to speak. It is lightening every day, but there are many people groups unreached. There are still people groups being discovered!!

How great is this earth God created huh?

Incredibly, I'll have to find it, but there is a documented story (i'm sure there is more) of the story of Christ being manifested as a "pagan religion" A Southern Baptist missionary went to a people group in Africa 30 some years ago, to share the word. When he got there, he discovered that the basic structure of Christ's story was in place, and that ths people group already worshipped God/Christ!! He filled in some details, but here was this people group, undiscovered until then, that already knew

Yes, God is a just God, and things go on that we don't know or could even comprehend. We have our directive (go out unto all the world, and make disciples of all men) and when we follow it, God will bless us, and those around us.

CTENG in KS · « **Reply #65 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 08:07:14 PM »

Just to keep you all on your toes...

Don't forget that this IS all just make-believe you are wasting your breath on.

http://beyondbelief2006.org/Watch/

chim · « **Reply #66 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 12:12:51 PM »

Paleez! What do you think are the most valid points...

blackdiamond · « **Reply #67 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 04:22:31 PM »

Quote from: chim on Jan 10, 2007, 12:12:51 PM

Paleez! What do you think are the most valid points...

I suspect it's nothing more than "bait."

CTENG in KS · « **Reply #68 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 05:54:53 PM »

Sorry, no bait...I don't need you to argue your beliefs or the like. I just wanted to remind you that there is no God in case you get too caught up in all this. Try it on for a day..see how it feels. Look around the world and see it for what it is - delusion free.

I bet you probably can't allow yourself to do it. After all, where then would you find reason to live?

BLACKDOG · « **Reply #69 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 07:30:35 PM »

Quote from: CTENG in KS on Jan 10, 2007, 05:54:53 PM

Sorry, no bait...I don't need you to argue your beliefs or the like. I just wanted to remind you that there is no God in case you get too caught up in all this. Try it on for a day..see how it feels. Look around the world and see it for what it is - delusion free.

I bet you probably can't allow yourself to do it. After all, where then would you find reason to live?

Ya know, most of us have lived that way at some point in time in our lives. It saddens me that you don't believe in God, but that is your decision. As certain as you are that there isn't a God, some of us are just as certain that God does exist.

CTENG in KS · « **Reply #70 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 07:51:24 PM »

And I am entirely as sorry that you believe in god. There is no rational or practical use for such beliefs and no truth behind them. I am sad that you folks can't seem to deal directly and honestly with the world around you, but instead choose to delude yourself in an effort to put off responsibility for your own moral judgement and character.

I am deeply saddened that people of faith would choose NOT to recognize the truely amazing creatures that we are as human beings and the beautiful physical realities that produced us. Instead you credit all this...all of us...to an imaginary figure who exists without proof or even evidence, only on "faith." It is insulting to me that you would deny what I find to be the most important truth: Existence is far more complex and far more intricate than any religion or idea of god could ever imagine it to be. All this complexity was created naturally, no supernatural being necessary. We have the privelige of experiencing this amazing semblance of order one time, and one time only.

Instead of appreciating the way things are, and how they became that way, the faithful spend their time thanking an imaginary being and looking forward to going to heaven.
No good comes of irrational, illogical beliefs and there is simply no reason for anyone to continue to hold on to them.

blackdiamond · « **Reply #71 on:** Jan 10, 2007, 09:20:41 PM »

I am not trying to start a dialogue about the existence of God, however, I am always amazed to find an engineer, which generally means a logical thinker, that can believe in the statistical odds macro evolution. It takes far more faith to believe in the BIG BANG than it does creation.

Here is an interesting article that I saw a while back that was entertaining:

**********

Scientists believe they have found a key gene that helped the human brain evolve from our chimpanzee-like ancestors.

In just a few million years, one area of the human genome seems to have evolved about 70 times faster than the rest of our genetic code. It appears to have a role in a rapid tripling of the size of the brain's crucial cerebral cortex, according to an article published on Thursday in the journal, Nature.

Study co-author David Haussler, director of the Centre for Biomolecular Science and Engineering at the University of California, Santa Cruz, said his team found strong but still circumstantial evidence that a gene, called HAR1F, may provide an important answer to the question of what makes humans more intelligent than other primates."

Human brains are triple the size of chimpanzee brains.

Looking at 49 areas that have changed the most between the human and chimpanzee genomes, Haussler zeroed in on an area with "a very dramatic change in a relatively short period of time."

Haussler said the gene didn't exist until 300 million years ago and is present only in mammals and birds, not fish or animals without backbones. But the gene didn't change much during that time, Haussler said.

He said there were only two differences in the gene between a chimpanzee and a chicken. But there were 18 differences in the gene between human and chimpanzee and they all seemed to occur in the development of man.

Andrew Clark, a Cornell University professor of molecular biology who was not part of Haussler's team, said that if true, the change in genes would be fastest and most dramatic in humans and would be "terrifically exciting."

However, the gene changed so fast that Clark said that he has a hard time believing it unless something unusual happened in a mutation. It's not part of normal evolution, he said. Haussler attributed the dramatic change to the stress of man getting out of trees and walking on two feet.

And it's not just that this gene changed a lot. There is also its involvement with the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for some of the more complex brain functions, including language and information processing.

"It looks like in fact it is important in the development of (the) brain," said co-author Sofie Salama, a research biologist at Santa Cruz, who led the efforts to identify where the gene is active in the body.

The scientists still don't know specifically what the gene does. But they know that it is switched on in human fetuses at seven weeks after conception and then shuts down at 19 weeks, Haussler said.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/science/gene-clue-in-monkey-brain-evolution/2006/08/17/1155407916074.html

**********

I put two sections in bold for comment.

(1) The monkey is scientifically more similar to a chicken than to a human, but I have never heard that monkeys evolved from chickens.

(2) This evolution believing scientist directly says that the change from monkey to man happened so fast it can't be explained with normal evolution and would have required a mutation.

This is the classic case of making scientific facts support a predetermined result. I bet it never occured to him that maybe man didn't evolve from a monkey?

CTENG in KS · « **Reply #72 on:** Jan 11, 2007, 06:34:47 AM »

Not a random mutation. A product of quantum superposition. There is NOTHING random about natural selection, both on a classical and quantum scale.

As a logical engineer there is no logical reason for me to believe in god or support any type of irrational belief system.

chim · « **Reply #73 on:** Jan 11, 2007, 08:27:18 AM »

I just wanted to add a quick thought without writing pages and pages... all one has to do to see there really is a God is look at Israel.. Look at everything happening in the Middle East, and actually around the world right now... It was all predicted in the Bible.. can you actually find one false prophecy in the Bible?? Good luck!

I think the sad part is to actually live in this world and believe there is no God.. what happens when you die... nothing?? Then why try at all.. why not just party it up.. live it up... stupid! Its funny how the smartest people can make the dumbest statements and develop the dumbest thoughts.. Even Einstein and Galileo knew there was a creator of all things.. a supreme being.. but then.. todays engineers must have exceeded their learning...

Sorry if Im not tiptoeing around the situation.. But I know for a fact that the Lord can return at any second.. there is nothing left to set up... everything is in place.. everything that needed to happen before his return has happened.. even within the last 40 years.. and I know that when he does.. every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the father.. wether we want to or not.

CTENG in KS · « **Reply #74 on:** Jan 11, 2007, 09:51:39 AM »

I don't smoke enough crack for this thread...I'm bowing out.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

chim · « **Reply #75 on:** Jan 11, 2007, 11:39:31 AM »

Thats kind of what I thought.. Continue to keep our head in the sand in light of all that God is doing right now...

TexJeff87 · « **Reply #76 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 06:15:41 AM »

Quote from: CTENG in KS on Jan 10, 2007, 07:51:24 PM

It is insulting to me that you would deny what I find to be the most important truth: Existence is far more complex and far more intricate than any religion or idea of god could ever imagine it to be.

And it is insulting to me that YOU would deny what I find to be the truth.

Lemme ask you a question...if I'm wrong, so be it. It was a waste. But what if you are wrong? What if there is more? Ain't no "do overs"...too late to say " oops".

My brother is Church of Christ...over thanksgiving there was a long and heated discussion about several things...is babtism essential for salvation, faith by works, do you have to be a member of COC to go to heaven...it was something that's been hanging over our family for years. Lot's was learned that day.

Asking Jesus to be your savior and acknowledging your need for him in your life is all that you need for salvation. Yes, in Acts it says several times " repent and be babtized". But elsewhere in the Bible is says " just call on me ". (Of course I am paraphrasing...) That's not to say that baptizm is not important. It is an outward action, a public declaration that you are born again in Christ, and you want everybody to know it. You are to be baptized so that, if somebody else sees you do this, and declare your faith, then they may be moved to do the same. We cant' bring the people to Jesus, but we can bring Jesus to the people.

I am excited about reading this whole thread, and continuing the discussion with you all. Couple of other boards I post on do not allow threads like this.

Jeff

chim · « **Reply #77 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 07:52:40 AM »

I agree with you TexJeff87.. thanks for the thoughts.. it should always throw up a red flag when someone tells you that you have to be part of their organization to be saved... whatever!

Lady Di · « **Reply #78 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:27:36 AM »

The Argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist" says God, "For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing."
"BUT," says Man, "The Babel Fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that." And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Ooh, that was easy." says Man and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

chim · « **Reply #79 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:30:24 AM »

Quote from: MrsWillyMammoth on Jan 12, 2007, 09:27:36 AM

The Argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist" says God, "For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing."
"BUT," says Man, "The Babel Fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that." And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Ooh, that was easy." says Man and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

Boy.. that confuses the heck out of me!

Lady Di · « **Reply #80 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:31:36 AM »

OK, sorry, I always found that part of the Hitchhikers Guide to be particularly funny.

Question:

Can you believe in God but not in organized religion?
Every religion can't be right but they can all be wrong.

chim · « **Reply #81 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:40:27 AM »

Quote from: MrsWillyMammoth on Jan 12, 2007, 09:31:36 AM

OK, sorry, I always found that part of the Hitchhikers Guide to be particularly funny.

Question:

Can you believe in God but not in organized religion?
Every religion can't be right but they can all be wrong.

Absolutely! I think religion is something the devil loves.. he gets us so caught up in our rules and practices that we tend to think that, that is what is getting us to Heaven... its all about our relationship with Jesus Christ.. thats all that matters... but also.. dont forget the fellowshipping of the saints.. church buildings should be there for believers to go to have fellowship with each other.. to worship.. to learn together.. to teach.. for the building up of each other, and giving glory to God..

I go to a church that teaches from the Bible.. Book by book.. Chapter by chapter.. verse by verse.. we skip nothing.. and we emphasize through everything.. that its all about Jesus Christ and that relationship... we just happen to be blessed with the building and all the other nice stuff that the Lord has provided...

If someone says that you need to go to their church.. or become a part of their organization.. stay away from that.. thats not what God has said..

Lady Di · « **Reply #82 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:47:10 AM »

that's why we stopped going to church in the first place. I was probably about 12 or so.
We had been going to Catholic Church.
When my father left us, and my parents divorced, by no fault of my mother. It was my father's decision to leave. All my mothers "friends" with the church turned their back on her.
They were nothing but a bunch of hypocrites that, as you say, believed because they went to church every Sunday, they would be saved no matter what else went on the rest of the week.
I think I'll read through this thread from the beginning and do some learning myself.
Thanks

chim · « **Reply #83 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 09:51:25 AM »

That sounds very familiar... when I left mormonism.. all my mormom friends and family dumped me so fast.. my wife even left and divorced me.. but even though that sucked.. it has brought me closer to God.. and thats all that matters.. when we die.. we take nothing with us except for that relationship with Christ..

But yeah.. mormonism teaches that there is no salvation outside the church.. which is funny because in the Bible it says.. whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved.. it doesnt say.. go to so and so church.. do all that they say.. then maybe I will save you!

Lady Di · « **Reply #84 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 10:01:22 AM »

Wow, that bites that your wife would actually leave you over that! Sounds a bit too fanatical to me.

I listen to an XM radio trucker station from time to time, it's like a chat room on the air. Truckers call in and talk about whatever. It can be really funny with some of the regulars calling and busting chops and also very informative.

I don't know how this conversation came up, but one caller said that if you have a Mormon friend, and even though you don't take Mormonism as your religion, that when this friends dies he can put in a good word for you with the lord and you too shall be saved.
Something like that.

I thought that was pretty funny.

chim · « **Reply #85 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 10:04:03 AM »

Quote from: MrsWillyMammoth on Jan 12, 2007, 10:01:22 AM

Wow, that bites that your wife would actually leave you over that! Sounds a bit too fanatical to me.

I listen to an XM radio trucker station from time to time, it's like a chat room on the air. Truckers call in and talk about whatever. It can be really funny with some of the regulars calling and busting chops and also very informative.

I don't know how this conversation came up, but one caller said that if you have a Mormon friend, and even though you don't take Mormonism as your religion, that when this friends dies he can put in a good word for you with the lord and you too shall be saved.
Something like that.

I thought that was pretty funny.

Thats funny.. I have never heard that! Doesnt surprise me though.. Mormonism is constantly changing to be more P.C.

TexJeff87 · « **Reply #86 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 10:47:22 AM »

Quote from: chim on Jan 12, 2007, 09:51:25 AM

That sounds very familiar... when I left mormonism.. all my mormom friends and family dumped me so fast.. my wife even left and divorced me.. but even though that sucked.. it has brought me closer to God.. and thats all that matters.. when we die.. we take nothing with us except for that relationship with Christ..

But yeah.. mormonism teaches that there is no salvation outside the church.. which is funny because in the Bible it says.. whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved.. it doesnt say.. go to so and so church.. do all that they say.. then maybe I will save you!

Here's a way to look at it. It's not Jesus "plus" anything. Not Jesus plus baptism. Not Jesus plus wearing a tie on Sunday. Not Jesus plus being a good person. Not Jesus plus confessing your sins to a priest.

Just Jesus.

I'm with you, Chim. I go to a Bible church. To me, organized relegion is man's relationship with God on mans terms.

BLACKDOG · « **Reply #87 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 02:41:17 PM »

Quote from: MrsWillyMammoth on Jan 12, 2007, 09:31:36 AM

Question:

Can you believe in God but not in organized religion?
Every religion can't be right but they can all be wrong.

absolutely.

I think I've said it before, but I to think that "religion" is the biggest downfall of "the church" (believers in Christ) we actually had this debate in our college classes' bible study last week. Needless to say, I was in the minority for most of it

I go to a Baptist church right now, but I am a member by default. (when we moved here, my parents joined) To join our church, you have to sign a membership form. Included in this form are some things that I don't believe are Biblical. I'm glad I didn't have to sign anything at the time, and if I was asked to now, I wouldn't sign it. I don't have anything against joining a church, because I believe that it encourages accountability, but I won't sign anything that isn't spelled out in the Bible. Our church has some great people, and some great ideas, but it has its share of hypocrites, and "holier than thou" people. People that are there for the image, for the "religion" rather than the "relationship"

notajeep · « **Reply #88 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 02:59:46 PM »

I think that you find that in most any church. But in my oppinion that is the downfall of the individule (sp) not that paticular church.

chim · « **Reply #89 on:** Jan 12, 2007, 03:21:20 PM »

Quote from: notajeep on Jan 12, 2007, 02:59:46 PM

I think that you find that in most any church. But in my oppinion that is the downfall of the individule (sp) not that paticular church.

The Bible says that the people ARE the church.. not the building.. not the organization... so what we do does reflect the "church" ... the body of believers.. thats why it irritates me that there are so many out their claiming to be "Christian", yet live a life in total contradiction.

blackdiamond [OP]

blackdiamond [OP]

blackdiamond [OP]

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