Advanced Theology II

[blackdiamond]

I have not been to church many times on Sunday, in fact, it may have only happened twice on the same day.



I know what your thinking, but I had a class in college that required us to attend at least four churches other than our own.  We found another Saturday church, went to Catholic Mass on Saturday night and then two different Sunday churches the following day.  I was well "churched" that weekend.

[jimbo74]

you dont get saved if you arent obedient though, so therefore batism is essential

[blackdiamond]

you dont get saved if you arent obedient though, so therefore batism is essential

This thread has been quiet for a long time, is this comment related to a previous discussion?  BigMike's question is the current topic.

I'll assume that you are talking about baptism and not worshiping bats.  If you consider "essential" to be the equivalent to required or mandatory then I would point to the thief on the cross.  There is no evidence of baptism yet there is a promise of salvation.

[chim]

I agree with you blackdiamond.. But Captain4x2.. thats not the topic

[jimbo74]

jesus was baptised, by st john the baptist

[BLACKDOG]

jesus was baptised, by st john the baptist

  he was demonstrating what we are supposed to do.  Supposed to do, not forced to do.  Baptism is an outward profession of faith, not a requirement of salvation. 

I would like to ask a new question:

Why do you (if you do) go to church on Sunday?

Because I was raised that way

Basically for all the reasons Chim said, except for #5  (I don't have any)

[BigMike]

Maybe I should have addressed the question in a different manner:

Why, if you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday, do you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday?

I just want to know what people's reasons are for this. I imagine they will be much like BLACKDOG's post above: My parents did it so therefore so do I?

[BigMike]

I am by no means a Bible scholar, but I have been studding my faith a lot since last Sept. and I have a much greater appreciation than before.

jesus was baptised, by st john the baptist

Jesus's baptism was required for our redemption. See Matt 3:13-17

If you are confused on Mark 16:16, then see Acts 8:35-39. We are not saved by Baptism, but rather by accepting that Jesus Christ is The Son of God. This is what the thief did when he acknowledge Jesus.

[blackdiamond]

This topic has been discussed a bit previously so I interested to see your perspective. 

[chim]

Saturday or Sunday.. thats a debate... not among Christians, but amongst Christians vs specific groups... Not to start a SDA debate.. but the Bible says whatever day you chose to honor.. do it unto the Lord! The sabbath was made for man.. not man for the sabbath.

Sunday is what works for me... I suppose if my church makes it saturday... it really wouldnt bother me... of course I go wednesday too.. so do I technically do it wednesday...

oy vey! This could re-open some huge cans of worms! thanks Mike!! haha

[blackdiamond]

Saturday or Sunday.. thats a debate... not among Christians, but amongst Christians vs specific groups... Not to start a SDA debate.. but the Bible says whatever day you chose to honor.. do it unto the Lord! The sabbath was made for man.. not man for the sabbath.

Sunday is what works for me... I suppose if my church makes it saturday... it really wouldnt bother me... of course I go wednesday too.. so do I technically do it wednesday...

oy vey! This could re-open some huge cans of worms! thanks Mike!! haha

Did you just say that SDAs are not Christians? 



You might be amazed at how difficult it is to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) in today's world.  I don't know if I know any Christians that, apart from attending church, keep Sunday in a different way than any other day.  When you follow the 4th Commandment and abstain for doing "your" work it can become a real test of faith.

[BLACKDOG]

Did you just say that SDAs are not Christians? 



You might be amazed at how difficult it is to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) in today's world.  I don't know if I know any Christians that, apart from attending church, keep Sunday in a different way than any other day.  When you follow the 4th Commandment and abstain for doing "your" work it can become a real test of faith.

and I think that is the big point.  You are right bd, other than going to church, I don't do much different.  I'll mow the yard, work on my truck, play softball, etc.  bd, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do on the Sabbath? I know you've said it before, but I forgoy

  Personally, I agree with chim on the idea of worshipping the Lord on any certain day.    bd had me read From Sabbath to Sunday, and I have to admit, it made me think a lot about why we go to church on Sunday rather than Saturday.  However, I do think the Lord is more interested in how we worship him, rather than the day. 

[chim]

Did you just say that SDAs are not Christians? 



You might be amazed at how difficult it is to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) in today's world.  I don't know if I know any Christians that, apart from attending church, keep Sunday in a different way than any other day.  When you follow the 4th Commandment and abstain for doing "your" work it can become a real test of faith.

All this has already been discussed... so anyway...

[blackdiamond]

In general, the activities that I am involved with on Sabbath outside of church are centered on family, friends and/or nature.  Common activities, other than church, include having lunch with other church members and hanging out together for the day.  In the 4x4 world we will often do more senic types of trails on Sabbath where we can focus more on the beauty of creation rather than the wheeling.  I avoid regular work at home (i.e. cars, yard, etc..) I never studied while in college and I don't deal with my job whenever possible (I will accept phone calls when I'm the only one with needed information).  A group of my friends studied the Sabbath a while back and focused on what right vs. wrong activities and concluded that everyone has to make their own choice with Christ's guidance because the Bible doesn't provide it in black & white.

I believe the purpose of the Sabbath is to acknowledge God as our Creator and worship Him and a day to rest from our normal activities.

[BLACKDOG]

In general, the activities that I am involved with on Sabbath outside of church are centered on family, friends and/or nature.  Common activities, other than church, include having lunch with other church members and hanging out together for the day.  In the 4x4 world we will often do more senic types of trails on Sabbath where we can focus more on the beauty of creation rather than the wheeling.  I avoid regular work at home (i.e. cars, yard, etc..) I never studied while in college and I don't deal with my job whenever possible (I will accept phone calls when I'm the only one with needed information).  A group of my friends studied the Sabbath a while back and focused on what right vs. wrong activities and concluded that everyone has to make their own choice with Christ's guidance because the Bible doesn't provide it in black & white.

I believe the purpose of the Sabbath is to acknowledge God as our Creator and worship Him and a day to rest from our normal activities.

What if you enjoy mowing the yard, and maintaining God's creation?    It actually sounds like we're not too far off on what we do.  I rarely do "real" work on Sundays, like I mentioned its usually spent with people I love, and it usually involves being outside   of course, I enjoy creation everyday!!

[blackdiamond]

I think one of the interesting things to remember is that we all tend to confuse church with the Sabbath.  Church has nothing to do with a day being the Sabbath.

Exodus 31:16-17 says, "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

Personally, I believe in a spiritual Isreal and the Sabbath of creation is an eternal bond between God and man.

Isaiah 66:22-23 says, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.  And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."

To me this provides a glimpse of what Heaven will be like.  The sabbath will be part of man's relationship with God for all eternity.   

[jimbo74]

  he was demonstrating what we are supposed to do.  Supposed to do, not forced to do.  Baptism is an outward profession of faith, not a requirement of salvation. 

well, obedience is required for salvation, and baptism is the first step in the promise of obedience.....

[BLACKDOG]

well, obedience is required for salvation, and baptism is the first step in the promise of obedience.....

The only obedience REQUIRED by God for our salvation, is our acceptance the His son Jesus Christ died for our sins, and rose again, and that we are nothing without the sacrifice he made for us.  It is only through him that we can be saved.  that acknowlegement is the only thing we are required to do, and in reality, the only thing we can do to be save.  We cannot earn our salvation through good deeds, obedience or anything else. 

[weirdtimes_7]

The only obedience REQUIRED by God for our salvation, is our acceptance the His son Jesus Christ died for our sins, and rose again, and that we are nothing without the sacrifice he made for us.  It is only through him that we can be saved.  that acknowlegement is the only thing we are required to do, and in reality, the only thing we can do to be save.  We cannot earn our salvation through good deeds, obedience or anything else. 

And this is true, but I do believe that in doing good deeds and being obedient to oneself and i also knowing what the difference is between right and wrong will make you a better person. You will stand in front of God and have to explain your actions in which you took while on this unheavenly earth...

military_stang

[chim]

And this is true, but I do believe that in doing good deeds and being obedient to oneself and i also knowing what the difference is between right and wrong will make you a better person. You will stand in front of God and have to explain your actions in which you took while on this unheavenly earth...

military_stang

Are you speaking as a born again believer.. or just your own thoughts?

[BLACKDOG]

And this is true, but I do believe that in doing good deeds and being obedient to oneself and i also knowing what the difference is between right and wrong will make you a better person. You will stand in front of God and have to explain your actions in which you took while on this unheavenly earth...

military_stang

  absolutly!!  Obedience is important to a good relationship with God.  My point as stated in my previous post is just that aside from the step of repentence/recognition of Christ's Lordship, nothing else is REQUIRED, because then you would be earning your way into heaven, and that isn't possible.  We arew most certainly recongnized for our actions, the Bible is very clear on that

[blackdiamond]

Why, if you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday, do you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday?

What are your thoughts on this BigMike? 

[BigMike]

Well, I wanted to spend some time replying and had hoped to do it last weekend, but didn't get around to it. I will offer more this weekend


Basically, The reason I brought up the Sabbath is because I firmly believe that it will be the test for those who choose for keep God's commandments in the very near times to come.

the Bible says whatever day you chose to honor.. do it unto the Lord!

No, the Bible does not say this. The reason why we should worship God on Saturday (the 7th day) is because "it is a sign between (God) and (his people) for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." (Exodus 31:17) The Hebrew word here for "sign" is "owth" (can someone check this for me?) And in the Ten Commandments, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:8-11)

We all know these texts, there is nothing new here. But what needs to be pointed out is that God placed his seal in the heart of the ten commandments, which gives the entire law its authority. Without a seal, a governmental seal saying who the law maker is and what the territory is, the law has no validly. So the Sabbath commandment, gives the validity to the entire law of God. Without the Sabbath commandment, the law could have been given by Joe Blow. Anybody. And we need not to be intimidated, or bow down to its precepts. But with the Sabbath commandment, it is the law thy God, the Creator, that gave the law his seal of authority. So I need to do nothing but keep the Sabbath and I am acknowledging an authority over my life that cannot be gainsay, because its from the Creator. I stand for righteousness by faith if I love him enough to keep his commandments.

So do you think Sabbath will be the issue? What is Satan attacking in the government of heaven? It's the authority of Jesus Christ. And here is the symbol of his authority. Therefore, if Satan wants to attack the authority of Jesus Christ, he has no other option but to attack the Sabbath.

I always thought that if I were the devil, and it says in the Bible that I am going to attack the Sabbath, I would attack something else and prove God wrong. You know, I’d be sneaky. But I can't, because the Sabbath stands for God's authority. Whose authority is relevant in my life? Either it's God's, or it's someone else's.


Well... You know this is a really hard topic to go into.. If anything I write is offensive in any way, please remember that is it not me who is saying this, I am just quoting it. If you are offended, then please check my sources and tell the author about it, not me please. Let's look at the Catholic Church for more on this:

"The Sunday … is purely a creation of the Catholic Church." – American Catohlic Quarterly Review, Jan 1883
"Sunday … It is a law of the Catholic Church alone" – American Sentinel (Catholic) June 1893
"the observance of Sunday by Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the Catholic Church." – Monsignor Louis Segar, Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today, P.213

The Sabbath has nothing to do with the day; that is incidental. The Sabbath has to do with Authority.

Jesuit Catechism:
"Q. What if the Holy Scriptures command one thing, and the Pope another contrary to it?
A. The Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside.

Q. What is the Pope?
A. He is the Vicar of Christ, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and there is but one Judgment Seat belonging to God and the Pope." – Roy Livesey, 1998, Understanding the New Age World Government and World Religion, p.104

Jesus is sidelined in this equation, and the Pope takes on the SAME description as Jesus does in the Bible. How can you throw the Scriptures aside? "My word is a lamp unto your feet and a light unto your path" (Psalms 119:105) "Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4)

Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic Church "can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days. – S. C. Mosna, ‘Storia della Domenica, 1969 p.366-367

"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible." – The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893

God does not alter his plans! "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8 ) He does not alter his plans! "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalms 89:30-34)

"Sunday is therefore to this day the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church … without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant world. – Editorial, The Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, A day which we never sanctify." – Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers p.89

These are very blatant statements, they cannot be gainsay, they not judgmental they are facts.

Why is the Sabbath so important? "Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act ... And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters." – Letter, Oct 28, 1895, from C.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons


"Sunday is our mark of authority… The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." - Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.

This has nothing to do with the day, the day is incidental. It has to do with Authority.

Consider this example: If your wife were to divorce you, and marry some other guy, and this man says "I am the new authority in the lives of your children", and the law says that you have visitations on whatever day, maybe Wednesday because that is the day you can get off from work or whatever, and this other man says "no, I am the new authority, you can't have that day with your children, you must choose another day." Then you are going to be very angry, but why? Because you can't have that day, or because he is assuming authority? It's about authority. It is not about the day, the day is incidental.

I choose to worship the Creator God on Sabbath, the seventh day that was set aside for us to share with him. I am not against Catholics, I love Catholics, I am not against this group or that, I am against ERROR, as my pastor put it, "ERROR cloaked in the robe of truth"

In the book of Revelation, John beholds a people distinct and separate from the world, who refuse to worship the beast or his image, who bear God's sign, keeping holy His Sabbath, the seventh-day, to be kept holy as a memorial of the living God, the Creator of heaven and earth. Of them the apostle writes, "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12) We must not conform to the standards of the world, we must be a light unto the world.

BigMike

[chim]

Mike... it does say it.. read Romans 14 to get the context.. then read verse 6:

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

You are making man for the sabbath, when the sabbath was created for man..

In the end that will NOT be the test.. all the verse you site are old testament.. should we all go back into the law, so that grace wont abound?! No! Christ fulfilled the law, therefor we are no longer under it. so if I want Sunday to be my day of rest, then so be it.. or even tuesday, friday.. whatever.. it doesnt matter!

[BLACKDOG]

Before we continue our discussions, can I suggest we all agree on one version of the Bible to quote?    I would suggest the KJV, or NKJV, because I believe that is probably the most accurate, and most likely to be accepted by all who participate?  (SDA, Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc.)  


Personally, I question the SDA ideology of the command to set aside the Sabbath because it seems to emphasize the 4th commandment over all of the other commandments.  

As for the idea that this is about Satan attacking Christ's authority, I believe that to be false.  There is no room for Satan to attack Christ's authority any longer, his attacks were thwarted, first when God cast him out of heaven, 2nd when Jesus rejected Satan's temptations, and finally, when Christ died on the Cross, and rose again, 3 days later.  From that point forward, there is no questioning of authority, no possible attacks.  Satan is "living" on borrowed time, and he knows it.  The only thing he can do is try to intimidate Christ's followers, and confuse/discourage/mislead unbelievers.  Christ's Authority has been established.

Here are two sections that I believe aid my argument, there are just a couple of verses in each section that apply, but I want to ensure the proper context is there  

FYI, all of my references are from bible.com, and are KJV  
Romans 14:5-10:

  5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

  6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

  7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

  8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

  9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

  10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.




Colossians 2:10-20:

  10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

  11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

  12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

  13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

  14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

  15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

  16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
  17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

  18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

  19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

  20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

I believe, like chim, that any day can be used to honor and worship the lord, and actually, that every day should be.    

[chim]

Nicely done Blackdog.. and Im cool with either version...

[BigMike]

Mike... it does say it.. read Romans 14 to get the context.. then read verse 6:

Thankyou, I will read the whole chapter to understand it.

First off guys, I just want to apologize if any thing I have directly stated is in error. If so, please be kind enough to point it out as Chim has. Jumping to the chase, I just wanted to say that this is the first time I have EVER engaged in a Bible and religion discussion like this, and I have been watching these threads for some time, but I never felt I was ready enough for myself personally to discuss. I am still a student and eager learner, so I will most certainly appreciate what knowledge and insight this will surely offer for me.

You are making man for the sabbath, when the sabbath was created for man..

I know about Mark 2:27-28, but could you explain in your own words how I am making man for the sabbath.

In the end that will NOT be the test..

Understanding how deep this could become, may I ask, what then do you believe is the mark of the beast?

all the verse you site are old testament.. should we all go back into the law

The old law must still be binding. The New Testament tells us that says that the word of God lives forever, "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever." (1st Peter 1:23-25 ) and stated above, the word of God never changes, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8 ) and "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalms 89:30-34), so why then would his commandments change? Luke 16:17 & Matt. 5:18 tells about the Law of God, "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the Law to fail.". What is James 2:10-12 telling about the Law of God? Shouldn't we keep every law? If we break the Sabbath commandment, then its the same as breaking any of the rest: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" Matt. 5:19 says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

I've never discussed this with anyone before, so I will learn how to present my interpretation as I go.

Christ fulfilled the law, therefor we are no longer under it.

When Christ fulfilled the law, as I interpret it, means that he lived and preached the Word of God, HE LIVED UP TO THE LAW.

Let me ask this: What was the tradition of Jesus on the Sabbath? See Luke 4:16, "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day".
And if this is true, then when the Bible tells us to follow in his footsteps, "because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps", I believe that if God's character of love is a transcript of the Law, then that is the character that he would like us to develop through his grace. That is why I put him first in my life over all else and I choose to accept the Law of the one who said I am the Lord of the Sabbath. I am your creator and your redeemer, you are mine by creation and by purchase.
1st John 2:6 says "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Before we continue our discussions, can I suggest we all agree on one version of the Bible to quote?    I would suggest the KJV, or NKJV, because I believe that is probably the most accurate, and most likely to be accepted by all who participate?  (SDA, Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc.)

I am using a KJV on my computer here at work. I own a KJV and a NIV at home.

Personally, I question the SDA ideology of the command to set aside the Sabbath because it seems to emphasize the 4th commandment over all of the other commandments.

I do not feel this way, I do not believe that the 4th commandment is greater than the rest. But because it is the only commandment out of the 10 that has the SEAL OF GOD, this is why it has already become a HUGE problem and it will get worse in my opinion.

I asked Chim what the Image of the Beast is, and I believe it is when the wall of separation between church and state will fall apart, and Protestantism does the same enforcing of false doctrine as Rome once did, and it will happen soon: "The wall of separation between church and state is a metaphor based on bad history." – Chief Justice William Rehnquist

Regarding Satan attacking Christ's authority! yes! This is what we need to put our attention towards because it will affect God's children!

As for the idea that this is about Satan attacking Christ's authority, I believe that to be false. There is no room for Satan to attack Christ's authority any longer, his attacks were thwarted, first when God cast him out of heaven, 2nd when Jesus rejected Satan's temptations, and finally, when Christ died on the Cross, and rose again, 3 days later.  From that point forward, there is no questioning of authority, no possible attacks.  Satan is "living" on borrowed time, and he knows it.  The only thing he can do is try to intimidate Christ's followers, and confuse/discourage/mislead unbelievers.  Christ's Authority has been established.

What do you think is Satan's #1 goal right now?

I believe, like chim, that any day can be used to honor and worship the lord, and actually, that every day should be. 

If this is true, then I believe that you are asserting to an authority that is not from Jesus Christ.

I feel like I am completely rushing through all of this. I just don't have enough time during my break here at work to write how I feel. I have more to add regarding Jesus fulfilling the law and the Sabbath that I will try to include later tonight if possible.

Remember that Romans 16:17 says to avoid those who try to change the doctrine of God, and this is what is happening to Protestantism today. Protestantism is in HUGE trouble and I would rather talk deeper about Protestantism and how Spiritualism and a New World Religion is replacing the word of God as I type this sentence.

BigMike

[BigMike]

BD, I will look at Colossians 2:10-20 and reply back later as well. That has definitely got my curiosity going!

[chim]

Thankyou, I will read the whole chapter to understand it.

First off guys, I just want to apologize if any thing I have directly stated is in error. If so, please be kind enough to point it out as Chim has. Jumping to the chase, I just wanted to say that this is the first time I have EVER engaged in a Bible and religion discussion like this, and I have been watching these threads for some time, but I never felt I was ready enough for myself personally to discuss. I am still a student and eager learner, so I will most certainly appreciate what knowledge and insight this will surely offer for me.

I think its great that you are engaging... its times like these that spur you to know what you believe and why you believe.. its a great way to learn! It helps me all the time!

I know about Mark 2:27-28, but could you explain in your own words how I am making man for the sabbath.

In simple terms.. its making man bound to the sabbath, and its starts to become a restriction of law, rather than a blessing of needed rest! It was designed so that we would have that rest.. we werent made to be under the discipline of a sabbath.

Understanding how deep this could become, may I ask, what then do you believe is the mark of the beast?

I believe the mark of the beast will be that one identifying item to which we will have to take in order to be able to buy and sell in a cashless society. The world is already heading towards that.. one currency, one religion, one government.. soon we wont have  a license or credit cards, we ill just have a chip of some sort implanted or tattooed on our right hands or forearms.. this will be that mark. Check out Worldnetdaily.com  Steps towards this are already in the works and have been for some time...

The old law must still be binding. The New Testament tells us that says that the word of God lives forever, "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever." (1st Peter 1:23-25 ) and stated above, the word of God never changes, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8 ) and "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalms 89:30-34), so why then would his commandments change? Luke 16:17 & Matt. 5:18 tells about the Law of God, "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the Law to fail.". What is James 2:10-12 telling about the Law of God? Shouldn't we keep every law? If we break the Sabbath commandment, then its the same as breaking any of the rest: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" Matt. 5:19 says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Christ fulfilled the law though so that we are no longer living under the law.. but by grace..
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I think Romans chapters 5 & 6 have good info on grace.. well actually the whole book!

I've never discussed this with anyone before, so I will learn how to present my interpretation as I go.
When Christ fulfilled the law, as I interpret it, means that he lived and preached the Word of God, HE LIVED UP TO THE LAW.

He fulfilled the law, we cant.. so thank God we dont have to! Refer to my previous verses from Galatians

Let me ask this: What was the tradition of Jesus on the Sabbath? See Luke 4:16, "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day".
And if this is true, then when the Bible tells us to follow in his footsteps, "because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps", I believe that if God's character of love is a transcript of the Law, then that is the character that he would like us to develop through his grace. That is why I put him first in my life over all else and I choose to accept the Law of the one who said I am the Lord of the Sabbath. I am your creator and your redeemer, you are mine by creation and by purchase.
1st John 2:6 says "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Jesus also defended peter picking food on the sabbath and related saving a hefer who was trapped.. because the Jews were taking the sabbath to the extent theat many are trying to today.. to make it law.

I am using a KJV on my computer here at work. I own a KJV and a NIV at home.
I do not feel this way, I do not believe that the 4th commandment is greater than the rest. But because it is the only commandment out of the 10 that has the SEAL OF GOD, this is why it has already become a HUGE problem and it will get worse in my opinion.

I asked Chim what the Image of the Beast is, and I believe it is when the wall of separation between church and state will fall apart, and Protestantism does the same enforcing of false doctrine as Rome once did, and it will happen soon: "The wall of separation between church and state is a metaphor based on bad history." – Chief Justice William Rehnquist

Regarding Satan attacking Christ's authority! yes! This is what we need to put our attention towards because it will affect God's children!

What do you think is Satan's #1 goal right now?

If this is true, then I believe that you are asserting to an authority that is not from Jesus Christ.

I feel like I am completely rushing through all of this. I just don't have enough time during my break here at work to write how I feel. I have more to add regarding Jesus fulfilling the law and the Sabbath that I will try to include later tonight if possible.

Remember that Romans 16:17 says to avoid those who try to change the doctrine of God, and this is what is happening to Protestantism today. Protestantism is in HUGE trouble and I would rather talk deeper about Protestantism and how Spiritualism and a New World Religion is replacing the word of God as I type this sentence.

BigMike

[chim]

Oh yeah.. I wrote in Red