Advanced Theology II

[BLACKDOG]

The Bible says that the people ARE the church.. not the building.. not the organization... so what we do does reflect the "church" ... the body of believers.. thats why it irritates me that there are so many out their claiming to be "Christian", yet live a life in total contradiction.

Not even necessarily living a contradictory life, but coming up with "rules" to adhere to that are unfounded.

I think that you find that in most any church.  But in my oppinion that is the downfall of the individule (sp) not that paticular church.

what part? the holier than thou attitude, and the hypocrisy?  I agree, each person can control their own behavior, but I believe that the doctrine that they follow often aids in the hypocrisy 

[chim]

good point Blackdog.. also..  if you are going to follow a church founded on one person.. you have to see what that one person said, and be ready to defend it if you are taking them on as your beliefs and saying its the only truth out there....

[Lady Di]

those giant preacher churches really get to me. We have them all over down here.

[chim]

those giant preacher churches really get to me. We have them all over down here.

We dont really have those... the "Mega Churches" are not found here...

[Lady Di]

We have the Benny Hinn ministries just a few miles from us.

[chim]

okay.. Benny Hinn.. that dude is messed up! I would like to see him make me pass out by touching my forehead!

[BLACKDOG]

We dont really have those... the "Mega Churches" are not found here...

Not really around here either they're in So Cal though

We have the Benny Hinn ministries just a few miles from us.

okay.. Benny Hinn.. that dude is messed up! I would like to see him make me pass out by touching my forehead!

but did anyone else hear Larry the Cable Guy's bit on Benny Hinn?    He said "Well no kidding people are getting up and walking, he ain't healing them, they just don't wanna be hit in the head!" 

[Lady Di]

but did anyone else hear Larry the Cable Guy's bit on Benny Hinn?    He said "Well no kidding people are getting up and walking, he ain't healing them, they just don't wanna be hit in the head!" 

Yeah, that's great! 

[blackdiamond]

Boy did I miss a bunch today.

Absolutely! I think religion is something the devil loves..

As you all know, I am a member of a denomination (SDA).  There are really two problems with organized religion: (1) people tend to look at each other, forgetting to look toward Christ, and see only faults.  This causes many people to walk away from religion.  They expect church members to be "perfect" and we are ALL messed up.  (2) Many times once people join together they think they know it all and no longer look for more truth because it might require them to admit that their original foundation wasn't perfect.  The problem with organized religion is that it involves sinful people.

Wow, that bites that your wife would actually leave you over that! Sounds a bit too fanatical to me.

I would agree that things like this are sad, but the reason Chim wouldn't stay in the Mormon church to save his family is because he also believes that it directly impacts his salvation just like his wife did.

But yeah.. mormonism teaches that there is no salvation outside the church.. which is funny because in the Bible it says.. whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved.

I thought that everyone at least reached the 3rd heaven, but only Mormons had the opportunity to go to the 1st or 2nd?

[Lady Di]

this thing about different levels of heaven is even more confusing then the concept of heaven itself.

[Lady Di]

Someone wrote here about the giant people? That got washed away in some flood? Was that the flood that the ark was supposedly involved in? (sorry, I really know nothing about the bible or religion)
What about those big images that were drawn in the desert, was it the inca's? What if the giant people were really the aliens.

[notajeep]

I thought that everyone at least reached the 3rd heaven, but only Mormons had the opportunity to go to the 1st or 2nd?

This is closer than anyone else.  But still not quite correct. We do beleive in mulitiple levels of heaven, we also beleive that in the Celestial kingdom, or 1st level as you have termed it, is where you and your family can be togeather forever. To acheive this, you must be sealed togeather with your family in the temple and live a good life.
We beleive that by being here on earth, that you have already chosen to follow christ, and by His sacrife in the garden and on the cross, we are all given the gift of eternal life, and go to heaven.
That is not to say that you will not pay\suffer for the sins which you have not repented of. Because we beleive that you will. Christ has suffered for all of our sins, but it is up to us to take advantage of it fully.
We beleive that there are different rewards (levels of heaven) for different works\faith here on earth. The telestial is likened to the glory of the stars in the heavens. Here you will find most of the bad\evil people of the earth, who have previously suffered for the sins of which they have not repented. See above.
The terlestial is likened to the glory of the moon, that much brighter than the stars. Here go people who more or less tried to live a good life, but were otherwise blinded by the sins\temptaions of this world.
The clelstial is likened to the glory of the sun, that much brighter than the moon or the stars. It requires that you be baptised with the proper priesthood authority, or otherwise be unable to choose right from wrong. like little children who die, the mentally handicapped, and such.
Ready for it to get a little more in depth?
We beleive that the celestial is split into 3 additional levels.
This is just a brief summary of my beleifs, regarding heaven, given to you all for your information. I will happily answer any questions that you may have to the best of my ability. I do however ask that you refrain from personal attacks on me, or generalised attacks on my religion.
Dan

[blackdiamond]

I expect Chim might have something to add.

Question for notajeep: Do you believe that everything you believe is supported by the Bible?

[notajeep]

We beleive the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

[blackdiamond]

We beleive the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

So you believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it matches with the Book of Mormon, correct?

If this is the case, discussions are very difficult because Bible is the only standard.  We'll have to see what we can do.

[chim]

This is closer than anyone else.  But still not quite correct. We do beleive in mulitiple levels of heaven, we also beleive that in the Celestial kingdom, or 1st level as you have termed it, is where you and your family can be togeather forever. To acheive this, you must be sealed togeather with your family in the temple and live a good life.
We beleive that by being here on earth, that you have already chosen to follow christ, and by His sacrife in the garden and on the cross, we are all given the gift of eternal life, and go to heaven.
That is not to say that you will not pay\suffer for the sins which you have not repented of. Because we beleive that you will. Christ has suffered for all of our sins, but it is up to us to take advantage of it fully.
We beleive that there are different rewards (levels of heaven) for different works\faith here on earth. The telestial is likened to the glory of the stars in the heavens. Here you will find most of the bad\evil people of the earth, who have previously suffered for the sins of which they have not repented. See above.
The terlestial is likened to the glory of the moon, that much brighter than the stars. Here go people who more or less tried to live a good life, but were otherwise blinded by the sins\temptaions of this world.
The clelstial is likened to the glory of the sun, that much brighter than the moon or the stars. It requires that you be baptised with the proper priesthood authority, or otherwise be unable to choose right from wrong. like little children who die, the mentally handicapped, and such.
Ready for it to get a little more in depth?
We beleive that the celestial is split into 3 additional levels.
This is just a brief summary of my beleifs, regarding heaven, given to you all for your information. I will happily answer any questions that you may have to the best of my ability. I do however ask that you refrain from personal attacks on me, or generalised attacks on my religion.
Dan

Sorry fellas.. I dont have internet at home I have a lot to say about this! and I will address it in order.

1. Bible does not support multiple levels of Heaven.
2. Families will be together, but that is the body of Christ as one giant family.. there will be no individual familes.. marriages etc... no biblical support.
3. Being here on earth does not mean you have already chosen to follow Christ.. by this statement you are illuding to pre-exsistence.. which the Bible does not support.
4. Gods sacrifice was on the Cross.. not the garden.
5. Not all will go to heaven. We do not automatically get the gift of eternal life.
6. If Christ died for all sins.. how will we suffer?
7. You have no priesthood authority.

Note.. this is not a personal attack.. and it is not an attack on your religion... it is DEFENSE of the Christian faith!

All points can be backed up biblically... If you want to defend it.. pick one..

[chim]

We beleive the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

What this means is that... they will use scripture to back up their points of view... whenever it contradicts what they say.. then it is not translated correctly.. its the biggest load I have ever heard... howcome they dont toss that disclaimer to the Book of Mormon when there have been over 4000 documented changes...

[notajeep]

Sorry fellas.. I dont have internet at home I have a lot to say about this! and I will address it in order.

1. Bible does not support multiple levels of Heaven.
2. Families will be together, but that is the body of Christ as one giant family.. there will be no individual familes.. marriages etc... no biblical support.
3. Being here on earth does not mean you have already chosen to follow Christ.. by this statement you are illuding to pre-exsistence.. which the Bible does not support.
4. Gods sacrifice was on the Cross.. not the garden.
5. Not all will go to heaven. We do not automatically get the gift of eternal life.
6. If Christ died for all sins.. how will we suffer?
7. You have no priesthood authority.

Note.. this is not a personal attack.. and it is not an attack on your religion... it is DEFENSE of the Christian faith!

All points can be backed up biblically... If you want to defend it.. pick one..

I will happily address all of these points when I have my scriptures on hand. (I don't keep them at work as don't do this for a living.)
Looking back at the thread, I thought that I might ask you about this and to elaborate.

The BIble says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. not Believe and do this and that and you will be saved....

In the end of Mark, I think that it is verse 15, dosen't it say something like "whosoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whosoever does not believe will be condemed".
I agree with you when you said that belief will lead to works, but this tells me that works are also required.

[chim]

I will happily address all of these points when I have my scriptures on hand. (I don't keep them at work as don't do this for a living.)
Looking back at the thread, I thought that I might ask you about this and to elaborate.
In the end of Mark, I think that it is verse 15, dosen't it say something like "whosoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whosoever does not believe will be condemed".
I agree with you when you said that belief will lead to works, but this tells me that works are also required.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But look...

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It doesnt say anything about Baptism here...

So how can you say that you have to baptized? If baptism were essential it would be cut and dry! But its not.. in fact Paul says at one point.. Im glad I baptized none of you! Is Paul saying in a sense... Im glad you are not saved? No...

Baptism does nothing to save you.. all it is, is an outward demonstration of an inward decision.

This is typical of people taking scripture out of context.. because the mormons also like to say that they only way you can receive the Holy Spirit/ Ghost, is by the laying on of hands.. and that only happens twice! every other instance when the Holy Spirit is dispersed.. its because God gives it freely.. by breathing on people for example... You cant take an inconsistent practice and form it into an essential...

[notajeep]

So you are saying that bible says to different contradictory (sp) things, and that God chose to do the same thing different ways?
Could you please explain how taking that scripture as saying that you must be baptised is taking it out of context.

[chim]

So you are saying that bible says to different contradictory (sp) things, and that God chose to do the same thing different ways?
Could you please explain how taking that scripture as saying that you must be baptised is taking it out of context.

Its not contradictory at all...

You just added the word "must" .. where are you reading that?

If baptism is essential to salvation, then Jesus himself must be a liar. Because he told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with him.. and obvisouly they didnt take him off the cross and baptize him did they...

Thats like saying that Abrahams righteousness came the moment he was swinging to kill Isaac, which we know is not true.

There is only one salvation... and only one way to be saved... by being baptized after being "saved" you are just being obedient to doing what the Bible teaches.

[notajeep]

ok, so when jesus said he that believes and is baptised will be saved, he is lying? You just said that he said two different things. Which is it?
I don't have the reference in front of me, but what about the scripture that says "a man must be baptised by fire and and by water or he can in nowise enter the kingdon of heaven." Again I am paraphrasing as I don't have it in front of me.

If baptism is essential to salvation, then Jesus himself must be a liar. Because he told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with him..

If you were a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, then you would know what we believe this means.
Anyway
I'll  be back tomorrow.
Thanks
Dan

[chim]

I was a latter-day saint, and thats how I know exactly where you stand. And I know that points of theology like these fall on their face...

Baptism is an act of obedience. It does not save you. If it were required... you would see it consistently in scripture... yet.. it isnt. So therefore it must not be essential. Show me all the places where it says you have to be baptized, and I will show you way more where it doesnt even mention it for salvation.

You are beating a dead horse dude..

Fire is a metaphore for cleansing.. and water is a symbol for the Holy Spirit.

[notajeep]

I know I said I was leaving.
But you missed it. Are you sure you were really LDS?

[chim]

See ya tomorrow, have a good night...

Yes... I was a temple mormon for several years.. still got all the garments, robes, aprons, hat.. hand signs and tokens. Taught deacons, 2nd counselor to elders quorom, did a fine job on home teaching too

[Lowrider]

1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No

[chim]

1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No

I guess I dont get it???

[Lowrider]

I was answering the 4 questions asked at the beginning of the thread.

[BigMike]

I would like to ask a new question:

Why do you (if you do) go to church on Sunday?

[chim]

I would like to ask a new question:

Why do you (if you do) go to church on Sunday?

Several reasons.. In no particular order..
1. To worship God.
2. To teach and to learn.
3. To fellowship with other believers.
4. To strengthen ministries.
5. Because I love my kids.
6. To make myself a better person.
7. To help others.

Im sure there are more if I spent more than 68 seconds