Topic: Advanced Theology II

[blackdiamond]

Greek for 2784
 
Pronunciation Guide
kerusso {kay-roos'-so}
 
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:697,430 of uncertain affinity
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to be a herald, to officiate as a herald

a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald

b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed

2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done

3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers


 
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 61
AV - preach 51, publish 5, proclaim 2, preached + 2258 2,
     preacher 1; 61
 
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)
 
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I did a search in e-sword (KJV+) for 2784 and it only showed up twice.     Here is the other text:

Mat 3:1-2  In those days came John the Baptist, preaching (kerusso) in the wilderness of Judea,  (2)  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In this case it is apparent that John the Baptist was preaching the gospel prior to the key event which is Christ's sacrifice.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

You  me

Nevermind, I just found the other references, I must have either pushed the wrong button of simply got confused.

 

I just reviewed several of the 61 texts and found examples of Christ preaching the gospel prior to His sacrifice and also His direction for us to preach the gospel after His death.

The purpose for preaching is to convert, so it only makes sense that the preaching would be done while we are alive.

Maybe I'm missing your point? 

[chim]

I just thought someone had said that Christ went to Sheol to preach to those who were condemend and that they could be saved.. I thought a second chance was trying to be established..  thats all...

[blackdiamond [OP]]

 

What are your thoughts Blackdog?

[BLACKDOG]

What are your thoughts Blackdog?

  Thoughts?  what thoughts?

To be honest, I have a hard time focusing when I'm reading stuff online, and honestly, some of it is just over my head.  I kinda glazed over when you guys started busting out with Strong's and the Lexicon. But from all of it, It seems as if we agree that there are no second chances, correct? 

Oh yeah, and I got the second version now, thanks for explain'n bd

I just thought someone had said that Christ went to Sheol to preach to those who were condemend and that they could be saved.. I thought a second chance was trying to be established..  thats all...

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Today after church many of the men gathered for lunch and a Bible study.  The topic was the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:3-11.

Mat 5:3-11  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  (4)  Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.  (5)  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.  (6)  Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.  (7)  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.  (8.)  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.  (9)  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.  (10)  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  (11)  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

It was proposed that these are the "steps" of growth that a person follows with Christ leading in their lives.  We only directly discussed the first three, but it was an interesting study.

Probably the one thing that I have a new understanding of is the meaning of the word mourn in verse (4).  It was explained as the feeling that Adam must have had when he realized that Eve had sinned and everything had changed.  It is us mourning for sin and sinners and the destruction that sin has caused.

Another set of verses that were also looked at from the perspective of a progression of growth was 2 Peter 1:1-8.

2Pe 1:5-8  (5)  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;  (6)  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;  (7)  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.  (8.)  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is important to note that the "poor in sprit" receive the "kingdom of heaven" which is evidence that this one item is all that is needed for salvation, but that once this happens the growth of the Christian continues.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

 

[chim]

"It is important to note that the "poor in sprit" receive the "kingdom of heaven" which is evidence that this one item is all that is needed for salvation, but that once this happens the growth of the Christian continues."

To confirm, you are saying that the poor in spirit would be those that humble themselves to the realization that they need a savior and come to him right?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

"It is important to note that the "poor in sprit" receive the "kingdom of heaven" which is evidence that this one item is all that is needed for salvation, but that once this happens the growth of the Christian continues."

To confirm, you are saying that the poor in spirit would be those that humble themselves to the realization that they need a savior and come to him right?

 

All we have to do is admit that there is nothing we can do and allow the Spirit to lead in our lives and then we are just along for the ride.

[donkeykong]

All we have to do is admit that there is nothing we can do and allow the Spirit to lead in our lives and then we are just along for the ride.

So are you saying all you need is faith and you are saved forever?

What about the scripture that states "faith with out works is dead" sorry I don't have my bible with me so I can state the exact verse.  But with that scripture we can conclude that holding on for the ride is not going save you.  There are "works" that must be done, specifically going out and making disciples of all the people of all the lands, just like Jesus commanded us to do.

As for the questions that started it
1 Satan is an angel that rebelled, his demons are other angels that he led astray when he rebelled.  the demons preflood where able to come down as flesh and blood to have relations with earthly women, so I would assume Satan also has that ability but if he does that or not I don't know.

2 temptation and deception can move a man to do horrible things. I believe Satan the father of the Lie can use many ways  to to try and influence our lives, it is up to us to lean on Jehovah God to give us the strenght and ability to recognize his attempts and overcome them

3 demon possessions happen, many instances in the bible and I believe even till this day.

4 we do not have the ability to remove an evil spirit.  Jesus and his apostle did this NOT of there own doing but by the power given to them by the heavenly father through his holy spirit.

[chim]

So are you saying all you need is faith and you are saved forever?

What about the scripture that states "faith with out works is dead" sorry I don't have my bible with me so I can state the exact verse.  But with that scripture we can conclude that holding on for the ride is not going save you.  There are "works" that must be done, specifically going out and making disciples of all the people of all the lands, just like Jesus commanded us to do.

As for the questions that started it
1 Satan is an angel that rebelled, his demons are other angels that he led astray when he rebelled.  the demons preflood where able to come down as flesh and blood to have relations with earthly women, so I would assume Satan also has that ability but if he does that or not I don't know.

2 temptation and deception can move a man to do horrible things. I believe Satan the father of the Lie can use many ways  to to try and influence our lives, it is up to us to lean on Jehovah God to give us the strenght and ability to recognize his attempts and overcome them

3 demon possessions happen, many instances in the bible and I believe even till this day.

4 we do not have the ability to remove an evil spirit.  Jesus and his apostle did this NOT of there own doing but by the power given to them by the heavenly father through his holy spirit.

The works are a result of being saved.. you dont bark to become a dog.. you can bark all you want.. its not going to make you a dog. You bark because you are a dog. You dont work to become saved.. you can work all you want but it wont happen... you work because you are saved.

[donkeykong]

Yes I agree, you work because you have faith, you do not have faith because you work.  I in no way meant to imply that you can work your way to salvation.  Everlasting life is a gift from Jehovah God, a gift we as imperfect humans can never "EARN".  But because of our faith and love for god and his son we are moved to do those works

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Welcome to the discussion!

So are you saying all you need is faith and you are saved forever?

What about the scripture that states "faith with out works is dead" sorry I don't have my bible with me so I can state the exact verse.  But with that scripture we can conclude that holding on for the ride is not going save you.  There are "works" that must be done, specifically going out and making disciples of all the people of all the lands, just like Jesus commanded us to do.

Chim answered this fairly well, but let me add my 

Salvation truly is as simple as admiting our need and asking Christ to be our Saviour (i.e. faith).  The thief on the cross is evidence of this fact; however, if Christ and the thief wouldn't have died that day I believe that the thief would have followed Christ as one of the disciples.  If we are true followers of Christ our actions will speak louder than our words.

1 Satan is an angel that rebelled, his demons are other angels that he led astray when he rebelled.  the demons preflood where able to come down as flesh and blood to have relations with earthly women, so I would assume Satan also has that ability but if he does that or not I don't know.

Would you be willing to expand on this belief and provide scriptural evidence?  Where does the Bible say that demons could have relations with humans?  Where does it say that it could only happen prior to the flood?  What specifically do you mean by relations, sex?

[donkeykong]

I will expand on this when I get home tonight along with scriptures that go with it.  But prior to the flood fallen angels came to earth and had relations with earthly women, thus the nephulum, gaint men disposed to anger and voilence were born, but they were wiped away in the flood and at that time the angels that had come to earth, inorder to save themselves, returned to there spirit forms, but were no longer welcome by God thus falling in the ranks of satan and his demons.  I did not say this only happened prior to the flood that is just the only scriptural account that I know of.  Like I said once I get home I will expand on this with scriptures.

We are going to have to agree to dissagree on the idea that faith is all you need to be saved.  I believe without faith you can not be saved, but, I also believe that we cannot be saved by faith alone.  You mentioned the thief, what would have happened if he was pardoned and released right after jesus told him that. what if, instead of following the other apostles and continued the preaching work after jesus death, he had went on his own never to mention the events or jesus teaching again, would he still be saved?  would that have been showing true faith in jesus and what he taught, or would true faith moved that man to continue the preaching the word of God like Jesus had commanded his followers to do.  I believe faith moves you to continue in jesus foot steps, striving to up hold the values and lessons taught to us by the bible and to do the work of preaching that Jesus started and told us to do, without these actions I believe our faith is not true..."Faith without works is Dead"

[chim]

I agree Faith without Works is dead.. but.. if he were trul repentant then the Lord would know his heart and be saved... if he wasnt truly repentant.. then he wasnt saved to begin with.. just like the scripture says.. many will say Lord Lord, havent I done things in your name.. and the Lord will say he never knew them... if we truly believe, then we will turn from those things and live a life accordingly. Still.. you can do all the works you want.. They will NEVER save you. The BIble says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. not Believe and do this and that and you will be saved....

[donkeykong]

You keep saying faith saves I keep saying without works you dont have true faith. We are argueing the same point just emphazing diffrent parts.

Can we agree on these statements

You must have faith to be saved.

True Faith will move you to work.

Thus, if you do not work you do not have true faith.

and if we can agree on that, then the question is left...what is "works"?

[chim]

This is what you said...

"We are going to have to agree to dissagree on the idea that faith is all you need to be saved.  I believe without faith you can not be saved, but, I also believe that we cannot be saved by faith alone."

I believe that faith IS all you need to be saved.

[donkeykong]

OK...our beliefs differ, i shouldn't have said they are the same point, but they have similarities.  I am trying to develop common grounds to build the discussion on.

I understand your belief, i think, you believe that faith is all you need..period.

but to me faith and works are like fire and air. without air the fire will die, but you can have all the air in the world and never get fire from it. so
Fire without air is dead
faith without works is dead

I understand your belief, do you understand mine, even if you dont believe it do you at least understand what I am trying to say?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

True Faith will move you to work.

Thus, if you do not work you do not have true faith.

These statements are partially true.  Try it this way, "True faith will move you to work given the opportunity."

The thief on the cross was told by Christ that he would be saved, so we can only assume that the faith he had in Christ as his Savior was enough for salvation.  This doesn't mean that he was saved forever if he had continued to live and not followed through with works, but he never had that opportunity.

The bottom line is that salvation is a heart issue and the work will follow if the believer is given the opportunity (additional life), but the opportunity isn't required (death bed conversion).

[blackdiamond [OP]]

We are going to have to agree to dissagree on the idea that faith is all you need to be saved. 

How about this, "Faith is all you need to be saved (present), but a working faith is required to stay saved (future)."

I will expand on this when I get home tonight along with scriptures that go with it.  But prior to the flood fallen angels came to earth and had relations with earthly women, thus the nephulum, gaint men disposed to anger and voilence were born, but they were wiped away in the flood and at that time the angels that had come to earth, inorder to save themselves, returned to there spirit forms, but were no longer welcome by God thus falling in the ranks of satan and his demons.  I did not say this only happened prior to the flood that is just the only scriptural account that I know of.  Like I said once I get home I will expand on this with scriptures.

This is completely new to me so I am very interested.

[donkeykong]

How about this, "Faith is all you need to be saved (present), but a working faith is required to stay saved (future)."

I like it...

I will get on it, I should be home in an hour or so and will give scriptures to back it.

[mrsblackdiamond]

But prior to the flood fallen angels came to earth and had relations with earthly women, thus the nephulum, gaint men disposed to anger and voilence were born, but they were wiped away in the flood and at that time the angels that had come to earth, inorder to save themselves, returned to there spirit forms, but were no longer welcome by God thus falling in the ranks of satan and his demons.  I did not say this only happened prior to the flood that is just the only scriptural account that I know of. 

Jumping in with my two cents.  I have heard this theory before.  I'm not sure how to prove that the "sons of God" are the fallen angels you mentioned.  But I'm doing my own looking.  I have posted the two references in the Bible to the Nephilim.  I used the NASB version because it's the Bible I use and I like the way it reads.


Gen 6:4  "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.  Those were the might men who were of old, men of renown."
Numbers 13:33  "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

[donkeykong]

genesis 6:1-8  some key parts but read it all yourself to get the whole.

verse 2 "then the sons of the true god began to notice the daughters of men, that they were looking good; and they went taking wives for themselves.."

verse 4 "...when the son of the true god continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty  ones who where of old, the men of fame."

if this was  just refering to other men why would it say the sons of the true god. Remmeber this is right before the account of Noah so at this time Noah was the only man to find favor in god eyes, so why would he refer to any man as the true son of god.

verse 7-8 "..because I do regret that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah."

also if they were just mere humans why would there sons be anything but normal not mighty ones, the men of fame.

I have more just the first part to think over.

P.S. all scriptures taken from the New World Translation Bible

[blackdiamond [OP]]

genesis 6:1-8  some key parts but read it all yourself to get the whole.

verse 2 "then the sons of the true god began to notice the daughters of men, that they were looking good; and they went taking wives for themselves.."

verse 4 "...when the son of the true god continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty  ones who where of old, the men of fame."

if this was  just refering to other men why would it say the sons of the true god. Remmeber this is right before the account of Noah so at this time Noah was the only man to find favor in god eyes, so why would he refer to any man as the true son of god.

verse 7-8 "..because I do regret that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah."

also if they were just mere humans why would there sons be anything but normal not mighty ones, the men of fame.

I have more just the first part to think over.

P.S. all scriptures taken from the New World Translation Bible

My wife is currently using the computer that has e-sword, but my immediate response to "sons of the true god" and "daughters of men" would be that is referring to righteous vs. wicked people.  The children of Israel were forbidden from marrying "heathen" people.  The story of Samson is a good example.

[donkeykong]

again why would he be saying that his rightous ones, when in the same chapter he says all mankind was bad, even saying that "every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time." and if these where rightous one of earth why would there sons be mighty, no sons of rightous ones were mighty unless given that gift from god and we know god didnt give them there mightyness, becuase if he did he would have saved them along with the only man he found favor with Noah.

Also this was preflood, not till after the flood did he make a covenant with noah claming him as his people. prior to the flood there were no rightous ones, no chosen nation.  In chapter 5 of Genesis you read the family line of adam and it only mentions one man as walks with god and that man is Enoch and he had passed before this all occured. So if you read chapter 1-5 up to this account youo will fine no rightous ones on the earth, no group that would be called Sons of the True God.

[donkeykong]

did we give up on this discussion or have you not had the time to respond?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

did we give up on this discussion or have you not had the time to respond?

Time has been short recently, I will try to take a look in the near future.  I want to give it an honest minute of thought.

 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Time has been short recently, I will try to take a look in the near future.  I want to give it an honest minute of thought.

 

I have not forgotten.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Luk 18:9-14  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:  (10)  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.  (11)  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  (12)  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.  (13)  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.  (14)  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

One key point - If you have ever been thankful for not being like the Pharisee, then you might want to think about it a bit more.

 

[notajeep]

I am going to throw in a side topic.
If Faith is all we need to be "saved", and Christ said: I am the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except by me". and "you must be baptised by water and by fire or you can in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven" (that might not be exact, but you get the point.)
What about all the people who lived before christ, not of the family of abraham, and what about all of the billions of chinese people who have never heard of christ? Are these people screwed? Does God not care about them?  They didn't \ don't have any faith in Christ. They were certainly not baptised. How can you account for these people? If there is no second chance after death, there are a very large number of God's children that will not be "saved".