Topic: Advanced Theology II

[BigMike]

Funny we should mention this because I did a small study on it to help a friend earlier this year.

Here is a direct copy from my file:

Regarding Fornication

Fornication: Voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other.


Acts 15:20,29      -- Resist fornication.
Romans 1:29      -- Those who commit fornication are worthy of death.
1 Corinthians 6:13   -- The body is not for fornication, but for the Lord.
1 Corinthians 6:18   -- He who commits fornication sins against his own body.
1 Corinthians 7:2   -- To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and vice versa.
1 Corinthians 10:8   -- The end of the world has come to those who have committed fornication.
Galations 5:19-21   -- Those who commit fornication shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3-5      -- Those who commit fornication shall not inherit the kingdow of God.
1 Thessalonians 4:4   -- God wants us to abstain from fornication.
Jude 1:7      -- The people of Sodom and Gomorrah fornicated and will suffer eternal fire.
Revelation 2:14-16   -- Asks those who commit fornication to repent for this sin.
Matt 5:32 & 19:19   -- If one divorces for without a reason, and remarries, this is also fornication.

[BLACKDOG]

This is an interesting statement.  If we should follow his commandments, why only nine of the ten?  I agree that following the commandments has nothing to do with salvation, but keeping the commandments is evidence of a relationship with God and a sign of our willingness to do his will.

Ah, but I've never argued that it is wrong to worship on Sat.  I've never said that it should be Sunday rather than Saturday.  It may be as simple as "tradition" but that is the way its been for me.  I'm not saying that it will stay the same, or that it will change, and if I am wrong in going to church on Sunday, then I will answer for my sin.  I accept that, but I believe God is more concerned about a relationship with him rather than following specific rules.

Just curious though, for those of you that do worship on Sat.  What is your stance on when you are doing other things (say wheeling)  on Sat?  granted, you could say you're doing it to God's glory, enjoying his creation, etc. What about when you break?  does that trail repair count as work?    It seems that if you are to mandate that you are to worship/honor God on a specific day (sat), that means all of them, not most of them, or some of them, etc?    I'm not trying to nitpic, I'm just curious how that factors in.

 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

BD,

Since I am at work, I'll keep my answer brief.  My family has generally chosen to avoid the more difficult trail on Sabbath in an effort to keep the focus on family and nature rather than the technical aspects of wheeling.  I don't claim to keep the Sabbath perfectly, but I can tell you that when I do it is a blessing.

[chim]

Chim - God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

By choosing a 6 year old, you open the door to the age of accountability. 

God is the same... but look how things have changed.. Jesus said if you lust after a woman in your heart its just as bad as actually doing it.. it was also said eye for eye, now Jesus says to love your neighbor.... Law has been fulfilled... God is the same, but these things are obviously different.

As far as the 6 year old boy... God has the last word, and its not up to me to speculate a situation like that... but the Bible is clear, that God is even seen and testified of in nature to those who dont necessarily have a missionary running around.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

God is the same... but look how things have changed.. Jesus said if you lust after a woman in your heart its just as bad as actually doing it.. it was also said eye for eye, now Jesus says to love your neighbor.... Law has been fulfilled... God is the same, but these things are obviously different.

I would argue that the Moral Law, or Ten Commandments, is further explained in the New Testement.  An example is the Ten Commandments say, "Thou shalt not murder," and the New Testement clarifies that hating your brother is the same as murder.

The Mosiac Law, the civic laws of Isreal, contained the "eye for an eye" and were given for an entirely different purpose.

Remember, the Ten Commandments are the only laws written with God's own finger and spoken audibly to Isreal by God Himself.

Christ did fulfill the law that says, "The wages of sin is death," when He died in our place, BUT that doesn't mean that it is now acceptable to break the Moral Law.  It only means that our penalty was taken away and replaced, if we choose, with the free gift of salvation.

[BigMike]

When Jesus fulfilled the law in Matt. 5:17,
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (KJV)

I understand it as Jesus lived-up to the prophecy concerning Him.

I know there are better verses than this, but I don't have my notes with me at work.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:45, KJV

He came to live-up to the task of which he was sent to do: to take back what Satan took from him in the garden of eden. And He fulfilled everything that was prophesied He would. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law" The law has not been changed. This is how I interrupt it.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

BigMike,

I don't think that I have ever heard it explained quite that way, but it certainly makes sense.

The phrase, "the law of sin and death," in the Bible which simply means that for every sin a death is required.  Christ died for us.  I don't have e-sword on this computer or I would quote a text for this phrase. 

[chim]

I agree.. He didnt come to destroy the law but to fullfil it.. and you make the point that God wrote the commandments with His own finger and that makes them special... but doesnt the fact that the Lord Himself speaks further on those laws make is just as special? Im not discounting the 10 C's..  Its my point to say that lets not be harcore about one.. forget the others..  but lets realize that Jesus spoke further on the subjects and added clarification.. and when He clarified them for us, we see that sabbath was made for man.. not man for the sabbath, and its not dependant on a certain day of the week!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

...and when He clarified them for us, we see that sabbath was made for man.. not man for the sabbath, and its not dependant on a certain day of the week!

The fact that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath has nothing to do with a specific day, rather the purpose.  The day was defined at creation and then stated/documented as part of the Ten Commandments.  BigMike posted quite a bit of information supporting the reason for the change of the Sabbath on the 7th day to the Lord's Day on the 1st day.  I'm not sure I have ever met a Sunday believer that said that they worshipped on "Sabbath."

[chim]

This is silly to keep arguing this.. If my church changed to Saturday, that would be fine! If they changed to Thursday.. That would be ok too!!! Its not the day! Its about our relationship with the Lord.. thats it! period! Have a sabbath on Saturday and that makes no difference if you dont have a personal relationship with God!

[BigMike]

Chim,

I have studied this from my Bible teacher, but I would love to hear another analogy of it to better understand it.

Here is the text in question:
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
(28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Mark 2:27-28 KJV


I need to learn how to become more open minded, and one way to do this is to hear others opinions and feelings in an open and loving way possible.

Actually, I feel like I just jumped out of a train and started screaming and kicking. I really want to apologize to you and BLACKDOG, I feel like I am not offering anything from me personally, all I am offering is what I've been taught and therefore "branded" to do/feel.

I have many friends who are Jehovah's witnesses, LDS, Baptists, Catholics, Buddhist's, etc, and if I am going to sit here and type that I love and respect them, then I need to learn how to become more open minded.

I already learned this the hard way with Misato. She is from Japan and her parents were raised Buddhists, however they do not practice it and did not really teach it to their children. They do things based on "tradition", much like the Protestants in America, such as going to temples during holidays, ringing the bell and dropping some change, and making promises and requests to someone or something. As much as this sounds that they in fact are Buddhists, none would profess to actually being Buddhists. I do not know everything about Japanese culture, and therefore it remains a difficult thing for me to comprehend.

But we have had many discussions about who is Christ, what is God, why is there a God, all very very basic things and I really pushed her in the beginning because I feel that God is the way and the only way, but I forgot that it only makes perfect since to me and not her.

I'm rambling and going off topic again, but I would like to hear how this makes it man made for the Sabbath.

[93tonkatoy]

May I weigh in here?

The church I was raised in, the church of God, is a non-denominationally dictated group of believers that hold that if you believein the Lord Jesus Christ, and have repented of your sin, then you are a member of the Church of God. I am making a distinction here between the church and the Church. True Believers are scattered ALL through religions. There are Christians in Catholic churches, Baptist, Methodist, SDA,....

Now, I believe that the "Beast" is Satan. The "Mark of the Beast" therefore is SIN. The woman in the earlier post is the religious group as a whole. And God is calling the Church to Him.

"He that knoweth to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (hope I quoted that right) We are Human, and despite our best efforts, we are not perfect. This was the reason for Jesus to die on the cross; so that we can, as soon as we learn of a sin we've committed, be granted forgiveness from God, without resorting to rituals and ceremonies. It is a personal and private relationship between one person and God. WE do not have to go through a mediator to get to god. And also the Bible tells us to "work out our own salvation", which means that we have to read and study the bible and apply it to our everyday life. I personally find no prohibition in the bible for the consumption of alcohol. (personal conviction) If you believe it is wrong, then for you to would be sin. Now, I come to your house/shop/wherever to work on a project with you and I have beer in my cooler, and I open one, I have done nothing wrong. When I find out that my drinking offended you, that would be the moment that determines if I sinned or not. First, I must make it right with you, by asking for your forgiveness. Then, I must ask God for forgiveness.

But the relationship is supposed to be evident to others in our lives by the fruits of the spirit. This is the way we deal with other people every day. For example, the Parable of the good Samaritan. If that were you on the side of the trail with a broken axle, on the sabbath, I could, in keeping with my faith, stop and work on your truck. My belief is that ALL other humans are my brother. And "when you have done it unto one of the least of these, you have done it unto Me". So, when I stopped to help you, I have really stopped and paid Homage and Servitude to God. Is that not what the Sabbath is about? and according to my convictions, every day should be the sabbath. God and my relationship with him should be the foundation of my whole existence.

The Sabbath was set aside for man to worship God with teaching, offerings and sacrifices. Man was not made so that he could worship on the Sabbath. This was set up as a ritual reminder in the law. Now that the law was fulfilled, God is to be the center of our lives, so every day is the Sabbath. And everyone we come in contact with is to be treated as Jesus himself. That to me is the ultimate in worshipping God.

And, I will add, being open minded is good to a point. You must understand the material and its reasoning before you soak it up. If it flies in the face of what you believe, then you must really study and pray for the answer.

Next, the 10 c's and the rest of the Mosaic Law was a list of mostly "Don'ts" and penalties. The New Testament did not do away with it, it superceded it all with two directives: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and your neighbor as yourself." if you keep the two NT commandments, how many of the 10 C's are you going to break?


Chim, What is the "age of accountability"? When are you responsible for your actions? According to the court system, it's never. There's always someone else to blame.

ok, i'll get off my soapbox now.

[chim]

I dont know the age of accountability... I believe thats entirely up to God and the stage of development of the child.. I wouldnt assume to know...  But the Mormons think they have it figured out that its age 8 regardless of the the mental state of the child.... hence baptism at 8.

[93tonkatoy]

I would have to disagree with a chronological definition of this. I agree with you,in that it is up to God. He alone is the Judge of our innocence. Again I look at "He that knoweth to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Without the knowledge, there is no sin, only innocence. I hope I was correct in my quotes, because they were from memory.

[chim]

I would have to disagree with a chronological definition of this. I agree with you,in that it is up to God. He alone is the Judge of our innocence. Again I look at "He that knoweth to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Without the knowledge, there is no sin, only innocence. I hope I was correct in my quotes, because they were from memory.

I dont know what you mean by disagreeing with the chronological definition...

But I believe that just because you are ignorant of the law and sin, doesnt mean you are not going to be held accountable for it.. its like getting pulled over in your truck and being cited for something you didnt know was a law.. does that make you exempt from the law... no... but it is cool when you receive grace and are let go for it.. I believe God does the same thing in certain instances... do I know which ones they are,.. no...

When you say sin is sin to one person and maybe not the other... as in drinking... I disagree... sin is sin. Its all sin and its all equal in Gods eyes.. we dont determine what is and what is not sin.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

tonkatoy6497 - tonight, hopefully, I will respond to several things in your post.  Some of your statements intrigue me.

[93tonkatoy]

First, I may be forty, but I do not know it all and am still learning every day. I hope to not come across as a know-it-all, and if I do, please forgive me. it is not intended.

I will take a step back and explain my stance. God is omniscient - all knowing. If you agree with this, then god knows the intent of your heart. He knows the reason and judgement used to guide your life. He also knows what you know.

In the garden of Eden, Eve and then Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. At that point they chose to do what they knew was forbidden. NOTHING they did was right or wrong. It was on the level of the animal kingdom. True innocence. Will a dog go to hell for getting into a fight with another dog and killing it? The dog does not have the ability to know right from wrong. This is the same as it was before the original sin. The only "wrong" there was was to disobey God's restrictions about the tree of Knowledge.

So, it follows, That God alone can judge us based upon what we as an individual know. the intent of our heart.

Man's law on the other hand must be enforced in a certain situation whether the person is truly innocent of the knowledge or not. But a police officer has the option based on his assessment of the situation to either ticket you or just give you a warning.

God does not say, "ok johnny, you are 13 y/o now so now you are accountable for everything you do." No, as the child learns and grows, he is accountable for what he learns. Is a 1yr old child responsible for groping another woman's breast? What about a 5t yr old? I say it is when he learns that it is wrong. However old he is. Is a 20 yr old mentally retarded person held by God to the same standard as a 20 yr old having full faculties? What is the division? Where do you draw the line? At what intelligence level do you believe God would say one would be responsible for their actions? I as the father of a 5yr old and a 13 yr old, hold the 13 y/o to a higher standard than the 5 y/o. God as our Father, judges us in the same manner. If a person accepts God on his deathbed or hours before he is killed, is he accountable for the same things that a person who has been a christian for years?

more in a little bit, my battery is going dead, and it's time to eat. back soon.

[93tonkatoy]

In Genisis2:16,17, God said that Adam "must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it, you will surely die."(NIV) In v. 25 it states "The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." Kinda like a 3 y/o after a bath. When Eve was tempted and ate of the tree, and Adam did the same, "their eyes were opened." They saw their nakedness and hid themselves. The death referred to in the restriction from eating the fruit is a spiritual death; I believe, it is the death of our innocence. Obviously it is not a physical death because mankind is still here. As we grow, we learn. A newborn baby does not know right from wrong. It is learned as the person grows. We are individuals, and as such, we grow and learn different things at different times. At the moment we realize that something is right or wrong, that is the time that we are accountable for our choices.

Now, to make this clear, to let you know where I am coming from, I do consume alcohol from time to time. Haven't for almost a year, but I do not believe that I am sinning by doing so. (Romans 2) But, at the same time, I believe that it would be wrong for me to go out and tie one on and get sloppy drunk! It is not my place to define anything that anyone else does as sin. Only by reading and studying the Bible, which is the sole basis for my faith, and through thoughtful discussions with others, and weighing that with the Bible, can I learn and grow in my faith. If, in my studies, God opens my eyes to the point that I believe that I must stop, then to continue would be sin. Man cannot judge that. That is between that person and God. Think of this comparison: a police officer shoots and kills a person who has just murdered someone else. a pro-life fanatic kills a doctor for performing abortions. Is one right and one wrong in God's eyes? both have killed one who has murdered. Man's law says that the officer is justified and that the other is not. But sin can only be judged by God. I do not believe that I, as an imperfect sinfully natured man, have the power or right to judge anyone else for anything. But in the enforcement of man's law, I could be required to judge someone according to it(man's law). In that instance, I would have to judge the way I said above depending on the circumstances and evidence presented in court. But that does not determine spiritual guilt or innocence.

ok. i'll give someone else a chance to speak.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

(1) Now, I believe that the "Beast" is Satan. The "Mark of the Beast" therefore is SIN. The woman in the earlier post is the religious group as a whole. And God is calling the Church to Him.

(2) I personally find no prohibition in the bible for the consumption of alcohol. (personal conviction) If you believe it is wrong, then for you to would be sin.

(3) The Sabbath was set aside for man to worship God with teaching, offerings and sacrifices. Man was not made so that he could worship on the Sabbath. This was set up as a ritual reminder in the law. Now that the law was fulfilled, God is to be the center of our lives, so every day is the Sabbath. And everyone we come in contact with is to be treated as Jesus himself. That to me is the ultimate in worshipping God.

(1) If the "Mark of the Beast" is sin, then what would distinguish one from having the mark in the end since, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"

(2) I would agree with this.  I believe the problem comes when it becomes a vice which is very easy.  I have watched one of my friends slowly grow in his alcohol use and it is sad to me.

(3) You mention in a later post that Adam and Eve were "innocent" and really only a single rule of not eating of a certain tree.  How can the Sabbath's purpose be to be a reminder of the law when it was actually part of the creation week, one of the things created.  What law is it a reminder of?  How does it remind me of any law?  I believe that the purpose of the Sabbath is that it is a time set aside by God to spent time growing in our relationship with Him.

[93tonkatoy]

(1) If the "Mark of the Beast" is sin, then what would distinguish one from having the mark in the end since, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"

The cleansing power of the blood of Christ on the cross. When a person believes and asks God to forgive his sin, he is innocent. He is a new creation.

(2) (3) related - Romans 14:1-8 And BM, I think this also applies to your question. Your convictions are between you and God. If you believe that you are supposed to worship on the sabbath, then that is what you should do. (v. 5) But that is to say that if I regard no day as more special than the other, that neither of us is wrong. We, at the time of judgement, will account for our own life. And God will judge us by the conviction of our heart and our knowledge of right and wrong.

  more l8r

[KDXSR5]

I was glancing through the recent posts area on the main page, and this one caught my eye. I have spent the last five hours reading through the previous posts, and find this all very interesting. I was brought up Episcopalian, but as I have gotten older (I'm only 16), I have drifted away from the church. The single reason why I believe in The Holy Trinity and The Bible is simple: If we were not here, what would there be? There has to be a God, because if there wasn't, nothing would exist. I have spent many nights laying awake all night long pondering about God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, the Christian religion in general, and how there would be nothing if none of this existed.

Ok now that everyone knows a little about be, please allow me to add to this topic. I am very interested in the Sabbath on Saturday vs. Sunday conversation. I have one question: Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday shall be the first day of the week? I have not found anything that says that, but I am still young and have not been reading the Bible for a while now, so I probably skipped it over when I did read.

This topic will defiantly make me start again. Thank you all for pointing me back towards the Bible! After reading all of this, I have realized how important it is to try to lead one's life by the Bible, and try to follow what God has instructed us to do. Especially at my age. Thanks again!!!

When we get a break in the discussion, I would like to introduce a new topic: Gays in the Christian Church. It doesn't need to be talked about right now, because other things are being discussed. Heh, my earlier question was probably a little off topic anyways, but I am hoping that I am introducing a valid point to this discussion. I'm sorry if I am rambling, I've been awake for quite a few hours now. I guess I will check in sometime soon!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Ok now that everyone knows a little about be, please allow me to add to this topic. I am very interested in the Sabbath on Saturday vs. Sunday conversation. I have one question: Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday shall be the first day of the week? I have not found anything that says that, but I am still young and have not been reading the Bible for a while now, so I probably skipped it over when I did read.

Sunday being the first day of the week is a historical fact and it is actually possible to trace the week back to Christ's time.  At one time the calender was changed (had something to do with lost time due to not having a leap year) but the days of the week didn't change, just the numerical value so the weekly cycle was unchanged.

I don't think that I have really heard Sunday keeping Christians say that the Sabbath is on Sunday, it is generally agreed on that the Sabbath of Creation and the Bible is Saturday or the 7th Day.  The discussion is on whether or not the Ten Commandments were modified or changed in the New Testement.

Historically, Sunday was a pagan day named in honor of Sun worship.  In an effort to bring in, or "convert", the pagan's the Roman Church (Catholic Church now) adopted a lot of the tradition of the pagans.  Nearly all of the statues and symbols in the Catholic Church and at the Vatican have pagan roots.  The statue of St. Peter at the Vatican was originally the Statue of Jupiter and the statue of Mary was another pagan god.  You will notice the sun in the background of many paintings and that came directly from sun worship.  Study some history and you will find a lot of historically interesting facts.  It was during this process that the day of worship was changed from Sabbath to Sunday which was the pagan's day of worship at the time.

Essentially all modern churches branched off from the Roman Church and each reformed an aspect of the teachings, but Sunday remained.  In the mid 1800s the SDA church was founded by a group of people from several different churches.  At the time it was the Adventist church and they worshiped on Sunday.  The message was that Christ is coming soon, the second advent of Christ.

    

[93tonkatoy]

answer your question with a question?

In the OT, The Sabbath was the time when believers gathered to offer sacrifices for breaking the jewish laws and worship God. In the OT, it was a "pay as you go" system. For a law that was broken, there was a certain sacrifice made. At the Crucifiction, Jesus became the sacrifice for ALL transgressions; past,present and future. Now, we have to do nothing but claim that sacrifice as our own. And we can do that any day of the week and any hour of the day, no matter what we are doing. So The only other thing the Sabbath was set aside for, is worship.

When we are saved, we confirm our belief in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The next step is to start putting Him first in our lives. (memory quote??) "In all that ye do, do it as unto me." Is this not worship? Your neighbor has a project at his home and you see that he could use your help, expertise, or equipment. When you provide for his need, are you not witnessing for Him? When you hear of a family or individual who have a need that you anonymously provide for, is this not charity.  If they are, then you have worshipped. Does this mean that you can only do this on Saturday? A weekly gathering of believers is for the strengthening of the faith of the believers, a time of praise to god, and a time to come together to join as one to present requests to god in prayer ( for the sick, needy...). The current "church service" is as much for the congregation as it is for God. Our whole life as a Christian should be one long worship. This is the meaning of the NT commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart... soul... mind... strength, and your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."Mark 12:30, 31. Living your life doing your best to let God show through you to others is the best way to worship Him.

I just want to point out though, I believe that there is nothing wrong with gathering together for worship on Saturday. And also nothing wrong with doing it any other day of the week. And I hold no ill will to anyone who chooses to worship on any particular day. I just hope I do not seem too argumentitive. I'm not trying to be. If I am, then  me.

And I also have a little thought jerking question to ask later to keep this going after we exhaust this one...

[KDXSR5]

Thanks for the history lesson. I like learning about history, especially involving the Bible and the church. I just never understood why the week had to start on Sunday. It does make more sense now though. I think it doesn't really matter when you worship. But that is just my current opinion, it may change, I don't know. I understand the point of setting aside the Seventh Day for rest, I was just wondering if any other day could be the Seventh Day, depending upon when the individual starts his/her First Day, or if the first day and last day were predetermined in the Bible as Sunday and Saturday.

On to something new that doesn't apply to much that has been discussed but I currently need help with: My wheeling buddy tells me that he doesn't think he believes in God anytime I bring up religion. What am I supposed to say to him? He has been one of my best friends for quite a few years now, and I would hate to ruin it all now. I guess I don't make friends easily, because most of the kids that I know party all of the time, and I am not into that. Plus many of them don't like wheeling, they just like to go and tear up the land in their high powered destroy-the-land-mobiles (I don't consider this wheeling). In other words, I don't want to lose my good friend over religious beliefs. Should I just not bring it up? Or what? Sometimes it really bothers me that he tells me this stuff, and it makes me feel like I should try to spread the Word to him, but I don't know if I am ready to take on this challenge. Ideas? Thanks in advance for any responses to this even though it is way off topic.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Thanks for the history lesson. I like learning about history, especially involving the Bible and the church. I just never understood why the week had to start on Sunday. It does make more sense now though. I think it doesn't really matter when you worship. But that is just my current opinion, it may change, I don't know. I understand the point of setting aside the Seventh Day for rest, I was just wondering if any other day could be the Seventh Day, depending upon when the individual starts his/her First Day, or if the first day and last day were predetermined in the Bible as Sunday and Saturday.

On to something new that doesn't apply to much that has been discussed but I currently need help with: My wheeling buddy tells me that he doesn't think he believes in God anytime I bring up religion. What am I supposed to say to him? He has been one of my best friends for quite a few years now, and I would hate to ruin it all now. I guess I don't make friends easily, because most of the kids that I know party all of the time, and I am not into that. Plus many of them don't like wheeling, they just like to go and tear up the land in their high powered destroy-the-land-mobiles (I don't consider this wheeling). In other words, I don't want to lose my good friend over religious beliefs. Should I just not bring it up? Or what? Sometimes it really bothers me that he tells me this stuff, and it makes me feel like I should try to spread the Word to him, but I don't know if I am ready to take on this challenge. Ideas? Thanks in advance for any responses to this even though it is way off topic.

Just let him know that you accept him no matter what his belief is.  Get a copy of the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.  He was an atheist and set out to disprove God and is now a Christian.

As for the Creation Sabbath being part of the ceremonial laws that the children of Isreal observed I would disagree.  The 7th Day Sabbath predated sin in the garden of eden.  There were other "sabbaths" that were part of the ceremonial law, but served a different purpose and were not weekly.

[93tonkatoy]

When we get a break in the discussion, I would like to introduce a new topic: Gays in the Christian Church. It doesn't need to be talked about right now, because other things are being discussed. Heh, my earlier question was probably a little off topic anyways, but I am hoping that I am introducing a valid point to this discussion. I'm sorry if I am rambling, I've been awake for quite a few hours now. I guess I will check in sometime soon!

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 and yes, I think we can get to that.

[93tonkatoy]

I fully agree with blackdiamond. You should make it very clear that you accept him as a friend. But as a friend you should also make it known that you do not approve of something when it comes up. Be ready to forgive and be ready to give. Always show kindness. Eventually, the door will open.

Quick Question BD, Do you have a concordance? If so can you tell be the first reference in the OT of "Sabbath"? I just did a quick scan (don't have a concordance) and the first reference I saw was the 10C's. Genesis was just "on the (  sixth  typo!) seventh day...". If that is the case, the 10 commandments were the origin of Jewish Law. It was the Jewish Law that placed the restrictions about what you couldn't do that day. The Sabbath was commanded to be a day of rest. No one was allowed to do any work: wife, children, servants. You were also forbidden to cause anyone else to work on that day. This included any work. harvesting, cleaning, cooking, serving(by servants). As a correlation to today, you would not be allowed to buy merchandise at a store on Saturday, becuase that would be requiring someone to work providing service to you. And by requiring the service,you would be guilty of breaking the sabbath.

I have got to get some sleep tonight.  Y'all have gotten me interested in this and i stayed up too late again. 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Quick Question BD, Do you have a concordance? If so can you tell be the first reference in the OT of "Sabbath"? I just did a quick scan (don't have a concordance) and the first reference I saw was the 10C's. Genesis was just "on the sixth day...". If that is the case, the 10 commandments were the origin of Jewish Law. It was the Jewish Law that placed the restrictions about what you couldn't do that day. The Sabbath was commanded to be a day of rest. No one was allowed to do any work: wife, children, servants. You were also forbidden to cause anyone else to work on that day. This included any work. harvesting, cleaning, cooking, serving(by servants). As a correlation to today, you would not be allowed to buy merchandise at a store on Saturday, becuase that would be requiring someone to work providing service to you. And by requiring the service,you would be guilty of breaking the sabbath.

I have got to get some sleep tonight.  Y'all have gotten me interested in this and i stayed up too late again. 

I think you may be correct that the word "Sabbath" may be used for the first time in Exodus 20, but let me get some things done today and I'll show that the Sabbath was known prior to that time.

Very fair question. 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I think you may be correct that the word "Sabbath" may be used for the first time in Exodus 20, but let me get some things done today and I'll show that the Sabbath was known prior to that time.

Very fair question. 

Actually, the word "Sabbath" shows up on the NKJV in Exodus chapter 16.

Genesis 2:1-4 “Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.  And on the seventh-day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh-day from all His work which He had done.  Then God blessed the seventh-day and sanctified [made the day holy] it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

I can’t imagine that God required any form of rest, mental, emotional or physical, so it is logical that He rested as an example of what He wanted us to do.  The example is for us to rest from our weekly activities.

Mark 2:27-28 “And He said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.’”

This text comes up often to prove that man is not bound by the Sabbath, but I believe that it really means that the Sabbath was made for us to be a blessing. 

Genesis 8:10-12 “And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark.  Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew the waters had receded from the earth.  So he waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, which did not return again to him anymore.”

This text doesn’t specifically reference the Sabbath or a sanctified holy day, but it does indicate that the weekly cycle from creation was still being followed.

Exodus 16:4 “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you.  And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.  And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.’”

Exodus 16: 22-23 “And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one.  And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.  Then he said to them, ‘This is what the Lord has said, “Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, and holy Sabbath to the Lord.  Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.”’”

Exodus 16:25-30 “Then Moses said, ‘Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it again in the field.  Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’”

Exodus 16 makes it very clear that the Sabbath was know prior to the Ten Commandments being given at Sinai.  God performed a miracle every day for 40 years to feed Isreal with manna.  Five days a week the manna appeared on the ground and spoiled over night, but on the sixth day they were instructed to gather twice as much because it didn’t not appear on the seventh day and it did not spoil.

[93tonkatoy]

Maybe this question will answer the distinction between the lines of thought. As New Testament Christians, are we bound by the Jewish Law? If we are, are we not bound by it's entirety? If not, then why any part of it?

In the early church, the day of worship or gathering together was changed to Sunday in celebration of the resurrection of Christ. He was crucified on Friday and was buried quickly that evening before the sabbath. Then He rose again on Sunday, thi first day of the week. This is the central most important event that we base all beliefs upon. Without the resurrection, we would still be bound by the Law, no matter how great of a teacher Jesus had been.

I do know, however, that the Roman Catholic Church is a very "adaptable" religion. When they came into a new region that did not know Christianity, they would absorb some of the customs of the indiginous people, and thus be more acceptable. This is evident in that Catholic customs and celebrations in South America differ from those in France, and from those in the Phillipines. Look at Mardi Gras. The celebration was of Pagan origin, but Lent was of the Jewish Law.

Now earlier when I referred to the Sabbath as stated in the Law, I didn't say it in a way that conveyed my full meaning, and not clearly. I meant that it was set up as a ritual that must be performed to remind us that god set aside the day as a day of rest. ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. IMO.

I will not judge your actions or your choices or beliefs. I support you with the love of God and in the spirit of Christ. If I ever get to meet you, I will greet you as a child of God. "When you do it to the least of these my children, you have done it unto me." If I were to reject you for our differences, then I would be rejecting Christ. And if I reject Christ, then I am not a Christian.

IMHO.