Topic: Advanced Theology III - Creation, Evolution & Prophecy

[MiniSimp]

So will the 5 year old be allowed in to heaven by your standards?

[DTB]

So humans are created evil and must become good?

OR humans are inherently good and are taught evil?

[chim]

Didn't South Park say it was the Mormons who got it right?     Sorry if I'm wrong.  I get all of my knowledge from TV.

Seriously though, I'm sorry but I cannot get on board with the idea that there is one specifically RIGHT religion.  I do believe there is a "higher power" and I believe that people should follow the basic concepts of the 10 Commandments, however they might translate into their religion.  But you can't tell me that a group of people on the other side of the earth who have never even heard of the Bible are all going to hell because they never stepped foot inside of a church, yet they lived their whole lives praising whoever they believe their "higher power" to be and living their lives as good caring people?  I think it's extremely closed minded to believe that any one religion is THEEE only right way.  I also find it funny how the people who are supposed to be the most devout christian people are the quickest to pass judgement on others.  I don't say this because of anything specifically posted in this thread, I've just been seeing a lot of it in my life lately.

A truely good religious person, should they care enough to respond to Mini's first post, should have said something along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way, Mini, and I truly hope that one day you find the Lord.  Please let me know if you'd ever like any guidance or help in understanding the Word."

I love that South Park episode.. they accurately point out how crazy mormonism is! They do a good job with scientology too..

Im against religion, what I am for is a personal relationship with Christ, and following the best I can to what He was written in the Bible... And please dont call me close minded, because it was Christ first who Himself claimed that He is the ONLY way to heaven!

As far as those who havent heard... the Bible says that God clearly demonstrates Himself in nature by things seen, and that there is no excuse.. I also believe God is just and knows our hearts and that we will be judged according to what we know..

And i dont really need to dance around with minisimp because he has seen these threads before, and if he is as devout as he says, he should know better..

[chim]

So will the 5 year old be allowed in to heaven by your standards?

I believe they will be... I dont think they have developed an adequate understanding at that point.. I believe there is an age of accountability.. not a set age, but only an age the differs between individuals that only God could know...

[chim]

So humans are created evil and must become good?

OR humans are inherently good and are taught evil?

They werent created evil, they were born under sin, because the Bible says that through one man sin entered into the world.. that man was adam.

[MiniSimp]

I believe they will be... I dont think they have developed an adequate understanding at that point.. I believe there is an age of accountability.. not a set age, but only an age the differs between individuals that only God could know...

Ok, thank you. You have clearly explained your views.
I am now done with my questions, carry on. 

[DTB]

Im against religion, what I am for is a personal relationship with Christ,

Me too....except my relationship is just with God alone....

I choose not to follow the mindless sheep

If you are truly a good person in your heart you will go to heaven...no amount of reading the bible, going to church or preaching to others will save you from hell. Its not that complicated

[chim]

Me too....except my relationship is just with God alone....

I choose not to follow the mindless sheep

If you are truly a good person in your heart you will go to heaven...no amount of reading the bible, going to church or preaching to others will save you from hell. Its not that complicated

Are you truly a good person? Have you lied? Cheated? Stolen? or wait... have you ever lusted over a woman?!

[Wermz84]

How is this passing judgement?

for the record my first post was light hearted humor.  and i am not angry or passing judgement now.  I am simply engaging in a conversatin, perhaps based on symantecs.  but i can assure you that i am smiling right now because i enjoy intellectuall conversation.   

It is my belief that in order for someone to call someone a name, you must first pass judgement on them.  Based on a certain criteria about said condition.  in this case, you must first pass judgement that he met the conditions of an Idiot.  then the judgement is verbalized.

Then you justified it based on his actions.  But it is also my belief that a persons actions are between them and god and it is not my place to judge, condem, whatever.  No matter what my convictions or beliefs are. 


 

[JanMarie13]

Are you truly a good person? Have you lied? Cheated? Stolen? or wait... have you ever lusted over a woman?!

And you've never done any of those things??  I can see not stolen...possibly not cheated.  But most everyone has at least told a "little white lie" and EVERYONE lusts.  Sorry, I don't buy it if you say you don't.

[DTB]

Are you truly a good person? Have you lied? Cheated? Stolen? or wait... have you ever lusted over a woman?!

Yes, I have done all of those things....... Did I feel bad for doing them? YES....
But I still truly believe I am a good person.....

Guess I will wait until I get to the Pearly Gates and God will make that decision for me based on  

 

[DTB]

And you've never done any of those things??  I can see not stolen...possibly not cheated.  But most everyone has at least told a "little white lie" and EVERYONE lusts.  Sorry, I don't buy it if you say you don't.

I think Chims point is that everyone has done these things....its just a matter of being forgiven by God...correct?

[chim]

I can tell you straight up I fail at almost all of these every single day! I know Im not good... sure the world may see me as good but that doesn't matter.. Your definition of good may differ from another's definition of good.. then who is right? You may see some things as bad that others don't... then what? God is the judge of who is good based on what He set as standards..  and no one can meet those standards.. so thats why He sent His son to die for us... and if we accept and believe in what Christ did on the cross for us, then we are saved, then we are going to Heaven... not by anything we do or did otherwise we would never make it.. me included... so the only difference between you and me would be that I am a sinner saved by grace and you are a sinner still stuck in your sins

[chim]

Yes, I have done all of those things....... Did I feel bad for doing them? YES....
But I still truly believe I am a good person.....

Guess I will wait until I get to the Pearly Gates and God will make that decision for me based on 

 

I don't understand why you would gamble like that... I have unfailing confidence that I know now where I will be and that I don't have to wait on a roll of the dice to see where I end up.. thats just not a chance im willing to take, especially when eternity is involved!

[JanMarie13]

With all due respect chim, and I'm honestly not trying to attack you in this thread, you are certainly entitled to your own beliefs....but what do you believe that we would need to do to ensure that we aren't gambling?  When we all behave in the same way, that is to say that we presumably sin but are otherwise good people, and we feel bad for it and ask for forgiveness from God, what step are we missing that means we are stuck in our sin?  I just find it hard to believe that because I did not walk into a particular building at a particular time on a particular day, that I am NOT going to be forgiven when I ask.

[DTB]

I don't understand why you would gamble like that...

I have my own personal (more of a spiritual hippie-like) connection with God.  Dont need anyone to tell me how or when to communicate with him....

Its a very strong (and personal) connection...thats why I take the gamble....

There are hundreds of organized religions all claiming to be right....telling me that I am wrong (or even a bad person).....why should I gamble on one of them? What if its wrong and I end up with Lucifer for a room mate?

[chim]

With all due respect chim, and I'm honestly not trying to attack you in this thread, you are certainly entitled to your own beliefs....but what do you believe that we would need to do to ensure that we aren't gambling?  When we all behave in the same way, that is to say that we presumably sin but are otherwise good people, and we feel bad for it and ask for forgiveness from God, what step are we missing that means we are stuck in our sin?  I just find it hard to believe that because I did not walk into a particular building at a particular time on a particular day, that I am NOT going to be forgiven when I ask.

It has nothing do with a building, time or other formula of physical action other than to say, I believe that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, that He died on the cross for my sins, that Christ had to do it for me because He lived a sinless life, where as I could not. And after dying on the cross for me, He rose from the grave 3 days later just as He had said He would and ascended into Heaven, therefore providing a way that I can return to be with Him in heaven if I chose to believe.

And if you truly believe this God will renew your spirit by sending you His Holy Spirit to live and dwell in you. And if this truly has happened then God will do an awesome work in your life and things will change, and fruit of this change will be evident.

[chim]

I have my own personal (more of a spiritual hippie-like) connection with God.  Dont need anyone to tell me how or when to communicate with him....

Its a very strong (and personal) connection...thats why I take the gamble....

There are hundreds of organized religions all claiming to be right....telling me that I am wrong (or even a bad person).....why should I gamble on one of them? What if its wrong and I end up with Lucifer for a room mate?

I would say dont believe what anyone says.. but if you have that connection with God.. then read what He has written and decide for yourself... Im sure if you are that tight then He would be delighted for you to read His word.. start with John or Romans possibly..

[DTB]

I would say dont believe what anyone says.. but if you have that connection with God.. then read what He has written and decide for yourself... Im sure if you are that tight then He would be delighted for you to read His word.. start with John or Romans possibly..

Yea I think you are right! I dont trust anyone except myself and God...... 

Why the bible? Talk about borrrrrring! How do you know God actually wrote it and not just some guy that had a wild imagination?

Why not the Qur'an? or Torah or some other book. What makes the bible and Christianity the "correct" religion over others?...

[DTB]

btw, Im not trying to razz ya or anything...just trying to get some answers "the church" has not been able to provide me for the past 31 years

[chim]

Yea I think you are right! I dont trust anyone except myself and God...... 

Why the bible? Talk about borrrrrring! How do you know God actually wrote it and not just some guy that had a wild imagination?

Why not the Qur'an? or Torah or some other book. What makes the bible and Christianity the "correct" religion over others?...

The Bible is the most scrutinized book in all of history yet has stood the test for hundred of years.. it has been proven scientifically, archaeologically, prophetically, and has not failed yet... no other book can claim this... Plus it was written over a period of around 6 thousand years by more than 40 authors from all walks of life all confirming the same message.

[chim]

btw, Im not trying to razz ya or anything...just trying to get some answers "the church" has not been able to provide me for the past 31 years

Im not razzed at all... I enjoy it! But I doubt I have all the answers!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Interesting discussion so far.  Here are a few comments that I noted along the way.  They may not even be in the correct order.

“You can call me an elitist if you want..  because my God is elite, and Im one of His.. so im cool with that...” – chim

Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I would say that God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) is the only true God (i.e. "elite"), but I don’t think the Bible supports His followers being anything but humble (meek not weak).


“The mormons are not going to be my judge! In fact, they arent saved and I wont see them!” – chim

Mat 7:1-2  Judge not, that ye be not judged.  (2)  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Are you judging them as individuals or as a religion?  There is a huge difference.  I believe the LDS, Catholic, etc... religions have it wrong, but that there will be believers that will be saved out of them.  On the flip side, I believe the SDA religion has it correct, but there will be a lot of members lost.  The denomination/religion is not the same as the believers.

Several of you stated that you were against organized religion, but is it close minded to automatically assume that the beliefs of a denomination are incorrect?  The truth shouldn’t be overlooked simply because you can’t see past the sinners in the church.  This is why we have to focus on Christ and Christ alone.  People will always let you down.

“So because of someone's personal beleifs they are not your equal and will not be allowed in to heaven? Even if they have done no wrong?” – MiniSimp

Mini, the Catholic Church basically says that there is no salvation outside of “the church” so based on that I would expect you to believe that someone of a different belief wouldn’t have salvation.

[MiniSimp]

“So because of someone's personal beleifs they are not your equal and will not be allowed in to heaven? Even if they have done no wrong?” – MiniSimp

Mini, the Catholic Church basically says that there is no salvation outside of “the church” so based on that I would expect you to believe that someone of a different belief wouldn’t have salvation.

And that is where the "Church" and I differ.

[chim]

Interesting discussion so far.  Here are a few comments that I noted along the way.  They may not even be in the correct order.

“You can call me an elitist if you want..  because my God is elite, and Im one of His.. so im cool with that...” – chim

Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I would say that God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) is the only true God (i.e. "elite"), but I don’t think the Bible supports His followers being anything but humble (meek not weak).


“The mormons are not going to be my judge! In fact, they arent saved and I wont see them!” – chim

Mat 7:1-2  Judge not, that ye be not judged.  (2)  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Are you judging them as individuals or as a religion?  There is a huge difference.  I believe the LDS, Catholic, etc... religions have it wrong, but that there will be believers that will be saved out of them.  On the flip side, I believe the SDA religion has it correct, but there will be a lot of members lost.  The denomination/religion is not the same as the believers.

Several of you stated that you were against organized religion, but is it close minded to automatically assume that the beliefs of a denomination are incorrect?  The truth shouldn’t be overlooked simply because you can’t see past the sinners in the church.  This is why we have to focus on Christ and Christ alone.  People will always let you down.

“So because of someone's personal beleifs they are not your equal and will not be allowed in to heaven? Even if they have done no wrong?” – MiniSimp

Mini, the Catholic Church basically says that there is no salvation outside of “the church” so based on that I would expect you to believe that someone of a different belief wouldn’t have salvation.

I know you are just tossing stuff out now for sake of argument thats actually hindering dialog.. but thats ok I guess... My elite comment was simply a defense of being called that... do I think Im better than others.. no.... but as Paul boasted in the letters.. so do I.. not in myself, but in Christ.But if you think being a follower of Christ is to cower and not defend, then thats not me.. Am I special because God chose me... heck yeah!

Your verse in Matthew about judgment has no bearing on the comment... If you believe in the mormon church and its teachings.. you are not saved. Mormonism is a non-christian cult that believes in a different Christ than the Bible. If you are truly saved, then the Holy Spirit will make it evident that its not in accordance with the Bible if you happen to be attending a mormon church unsuspectingly... I think there can be saved sda's if they are unaware of the teachings of E.G.White, I think there can be saved Catholics if they are all about Jesus and not the popes and mary... But I know the power of the Holy Spirit and I know He will bring things to light.

[chim]

And that is where the "Church" and I differ.

Thats good.. I would stay away from any organization that says they are the way to salvation!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

NEW TOPIC - I am in the process of watching a DVD mini-series about creation and came across a few interesting quotes.

First, briefly read the information about Professor Richard Lewontin on the following link:

http://authors.library.caltech.edu/5456/1/hrst.mit.edu/hrs/evolution/public/profiles/lewontin.html

It seems to me that he would be considered a reliable source for supporting evolution.  Now read this quote:

“We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its contructs…because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.  Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.” - Professor Richard Lewontin

Now read the following quote:

“There are only two possible explanations as to how life arose; spontaneous generation arising to evolution or a supernatural creative act of God.  Spontaneous generation was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others, but that just leaves us with only one other possibility that life came as a supernatural act of creation by God, but I can’t accept that philosophy because I do not want to believe in God.  Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution.” George Wald

link: http://bevets.com/equotesw.htm

Now open your Bible and read 2 Peter 3:5-6, "“For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God;”

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:19-20

The Bible predicts that there will be a time when man would choose to ignore creation.

I had never heard this verse in this context and I found it interesting that some of the evolutionists openly states that it was a choice to not believe in God against scientific evidence.  Just think about that for a minute, does this sound like intellectual honesty?