Topic: Advanced Theology II

[BigMike]

Oh yeah.. I wrote in Red

I just modified your post, is it correct now?

[chim]

Looks good thanks

[BLACKDOG]

Ok, lets see if I can do this

First off guys, I just want to apologize if any thing I have directly stated is in error. If so, please be kind enough to point it out as Chim has. Jumping to the chase, I just wanted to say that this is the first time I have EVER engaged in a Bible and religion discussion like this, and I have been watching these threads for some time, but I never felt I was ready enough for myself personally to discuss. I am still a student and eager learner, so I will most certainly appreciate what knowledge and insight this will surely offer for me.

 aren't we all?  I have been involved with these discussion for a while, but as you can probably see from some of my responses, I am not nearly as well learned as others.    One of the big things I enjoy is that although we disagree on some things, these discussions encourage me to dig deeper into my faith, and to study more.    which is what we're supposed to do.

Understanding how deep this could become, may I ask, what then do you believe is the mark of the beast?

I think we'll know when the time comes.  Right now, I don't know what it is, but I don't think that it is failing to follow the 4th commandment.  I believe this because if that were so, then part of salvation would in fact be the obedience of this commandment, indicating that you do actually earn your salvation.  Also, I would point you to a verse that you quoted, the entirety of   Matthew 5:19:

   19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 Even if we are breaking the 4th commandment every week that we do not worship on a Sat, It says that we may be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.  However, being the least in the kingdom of heaven is better than having the mark of the beast, and not being in the kingdom of heaven at all.  Granted, we shouldn't strive to be the least in the kingdom of heaven, but I don't believe that not following the 4th commandment could be the mark of the beast and still allow people into the kingdom of heaven

When Christ fulfilled the law, as I interpret it, means that he lived and preached the Word of God, HE LIVED UP TO THE LAW.

This too is what I believe.  Matt 5:17-18  lead me to believe this.
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

   18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



However, this does lead me to believe that Jesus was talking about fulfilling the prophecies, as well as the requirements for the "appeasements" of sin prior to his death and ressurection (sacrifices).  By no means does this render the 10 commandments as any less important, or that Jesus didn't follow the law.

I do not feel this way, I do not believe that the 4th commandment is greater than the rest. But because it is the only commandment out of the 10 that has the SEAL OF GOD, this is why it has already become a HUGE problem and it will get worse in my opinion.

I asked Chim what the Image of the Beast is, and I believe it is when the wall of separation between church and state will fall apart, and Protestantism does the same enforcing of false doctrine as Rome once did, and it will happen soon: "The wall of separation between church and state is a metaphor based on bad history." – Chief Justice William Rehnquist

Regarding Satan attacking Christ's authority! yes! This is what we need to put our attention towards because it will affect God's children!


What do you think is Satan's #1 goal right now?

Big Mike, can you help me out with the seal of God being on the 4th commandment?  here is the 10 commandments from Exodus 20.  I'm not arguing with you (yet )  I'm just not sure where this seal of God is coming from?  I mean, I dunno if it needs  seal, the 10 commandments are pretty much written in stone, aren't they?  (pun intended )
Exodus 20
   1And God spake all these words, saying,

   2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

   3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

   4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

   5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

   6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

   7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

   8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

   9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

   10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

   11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

   12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

   13Thou shalt not kill.

   14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

   15Thou shalt not steal.

   16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

   17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.



Interesting thinking about the mark of the beast Big Mike, I'm going to have to look more into that.

As for Christ's Authority, I don't believe it can be questioned.  I'll start off by pointing you to these verses.

Isaiah 45:23:

    23 By myself I have sworn,
       my mouth has uttered in all integrity
       a word that will not be revoked:
       Before me every knee will bow;
       by me every tongue will swear.

Romans 14:9-12
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
   " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
   'every knee will bow before me;
      every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:11:

    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.




Now don't take that as me seeing that there isn't a problem in the world, no far from it.  I just believe Satan has gone from questioning Christ's authority to more of a demoralizing tactic.  He is attacking believers, causing dissent and unrest within the church (don't get me started on denominations)  as well as discouragments, distractions, and temptations to individuals. He is also attacking non-believers with many of the same things, as well as making the shortcomings of the "church"  very evident, to coerce non-believers into thinking that they don't want to get involved with this mess.  Satan recognizes Christ's authority, he can no longer question that.  He has been tried, and judged already, he is simply living on a suspended sentence.  There can be no question of Christ's authority any longer.    


As much as a I regret it, I need to finish up some finals preparation.  I look forward to coming back later tonight and seeing what ya'll have to say.  I'm sorry if these lasts posts weren't quite clear, I've been trying to do other work as well.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I got some reading to do it appears. 

[BLACKDOG]

I got some reading to do it appears. 

[BigMike]

Before we continue our discussions, can I suggest we all agree on one version of the Bible to quote?

One thing I forgot the mention is that although I am partial to the KJV, the NIV is actually much better translated for the state of the dead. For instance, in the New Testament alone, the word hades is used 12 times and should be translated to "grave" instead of "hell" in eleven of the twelve instances. If you compare the texts from KJV and NIV you will see that the NIV makes more sense. For instance, Revelation 6:8 in the KJV says to kill with death is redundant. It should be to kill with pestilence (Hebrew word "deber")

Romans 14:5-10:
   6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

I believe that if you look at this chapter, it is about judging others. I think it is similar to 1 Corinthians 10:31, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." Giving glory to God in this sense, means to act like God would. If we were to judge others about what they do, then do it with love and kindness. Romans 14:6 does not specify a specific day where as the 4th commandment does, the Sabbath day of thy Creator God.

Colossians 2:10-20:
   16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is reference to ceremonial laws. If this was the Commandments of God that were nailed to the cross, then show me which of the 10 Commandments does it tell us how to eat, or how to drink? Also, the "sabbath days" that this is speaking about I believe are the 12 Sabbath Days of the year, which are festive days, not each and every Holy Sabbath day of all mankind.

Guys, if we no longer live under the law, then it seems to me that I may just have your wife/girlfriend? How about you truck, I am just going to take it and this would be ok, right? How can the laws no longer be binding?

According to the Bible, even Jesus knew and kept the 10 Commandments:
"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother." (Luke 18:20)

What does Jesus tell us to do if we love him?
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

What does Jesus say about tradition vs. commandment keeping?
"(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (8 ) For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. (9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (10) For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (Mark 7:7-10)

How do we show love for God and is it burdensome to keep his commandments?
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1st John 5:2-3)
"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." (Psalms 119:165)
"Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

Can the Law of God ever change?
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." (Luke 16:17)
"But the word of the Lord endureth for ever." (1st Peter 1:23-25)

Is it possible to keep his commandments for ever?
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12)

How important is it for us to keep all of God's laws?
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

What day will we worship God in Heaven?
"(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (23) And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 66:22-23)

Was the Sabbath Day Blessed?
"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3)
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:11)

And if God blesses something, how long does it remain blessed?
"Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O LORD, and it shall be blessed for ever. (1 Chronicles 17:27)

What promise is there for those who choose to keep the Sabbath?
"(13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: (14) Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mount of the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 58:14)

Does God remember those who trust on him?
"And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."

It is my opinion that if you try to do away with just the 4th commandment somehow, then you completely miss out on all of these wonderful promises that God has given us. Also knowing that we will be keeping the Sabbath in Heaven is more than enough of a reason for me to wish to keep it here on earth: If I am not in the habit of Loving God and keeping his commandments now, then how could I ever do that when I am in Heaven?

[BigMike]

Big Mike, can you help me out with the seal of God being on the 4th commandment?  here is the 10 commandments from Exodus 20.  I'm not arguing with you (yet )  I'm just not sure where this seal of God is coming from?  I mean, I dunno if it needs  seal, the 10 commandments are pretty much written in stone, aren't they?  (pun intended )

If I say, "George Bush is the president of the United Sates of America", then I have stated 1) who the president is and 2) what his territory is. With this, he is then the authority of the United States of America.

Likewise, wherein the 4th Commandment says (Exodus 20:11):
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,"
This shows who commands this: The Creator God.

"the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
This shows his territory: No one else may call this day his own but the Creator God who created it.

This is the ONLY commandment out of the 10 that gives the authority of the author to the Creator God. Without this commandment, the 10 commandments could have been written by anyone. There is only one person who can give this commandment, and it must be the Creator God.

As for Christ's Authority, I don't believe it can be questioned.

If you remove the 4th commandment, then you remove the authority of Jesus Christ. Just wait and see, I believe that citizens of the U.S. will soon be FORCED to attend church on Sunday, and also they will be FORCED to accept a New Universal Christ who satisfies all religions!! These two things are already in progress today! The SDA church has been preaching this message for over 150 years: what if they were right all along?

Throughout the Bible, whenever God says something, Satan always questions it. He always puts question marks where there are statements. The first time he did this was of course when the two first lies of human kind were spoken:
1) "You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4)
2) "Ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5)

And weather you want to believe it or not, this is what the Protestantism churches of the world are preaching today through Spiritualism and Pantheism.

I want to get into this in much more detail, but I don't think I will have time until this weekend (hopefully). I would also like to share about the two Beasts and how the 2nd beast is showing homage to the 1st beast right now today.

I believe that the theory of Evolution will be used to great extent to show that God is less than he really is, and science will be used for the 2nd lie above to show that we are god.

Guys, I feel that it is getting really scary in this world. I believe that we are truly living in the last days. I believe that there are people alive today who will be alive at the second coming. Can you believe that?

I have known God my entire life but only in the last 1/2 year have I honestly and earnestly desired to know God. Is it just coincidence that I just happen to suddenly be so interested in God? Revelation tells me otherwise.

[BigMike]

In simple terms.. its making man bound to the sabbath, and its starts to become a restriction of law, rather than a blessing of needed rest! It was designed so that we would have that rest.. we werent made to be under the discipline of a sabbath.

I overlooked this point. Question: Are we bound to keeping the Commandments of God?

As for the Commandments being a restriction of life, or a burden, please see 1st John 5:2-3 and Psalms 119:165 (both quoted above), and I know there is another text in Revelation but I cannot find it right now

we werent made to be under the discipline of a sabbath

Was the Sabbath discipline not given less than 24 hours after man was brought into existence? It is the world view point today that has shifted our sight away from how God designed us to and wants us to live. Remember we were designed to be vegetarians, and we will be vegetarians again in Heaven!

I am off to sleep. I have not been up this late for a while, which is amazing! (amazing dumb I guess )


BigMike

[BLACKDOG]

If I say, "George Bush is the president of the United Sates of America", then I have stated 1) who the president is and 2) what his territory is. With this, he is then the authority of the United States of America.

Likewise, wherein the 4th Commandment says (Exodus 20:11):
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,"
This shows who commands this: The Creator God.

"the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
This shows his territory: No one else may call this day his own but the Creator God who created it.

This is the ONLY commandment out of the 10 that gives the authority of the author to the Creator God. Without this commandment, the 10 commandments could have been written by anyone. There is only one person who can give this commandment, and it must be the Creator God.

Aren't you putting more emphasis on the 4th commandment, simply by stating what you state here?  I think the "preamble" if you will of the 10 commandments makes it pretty clear who the Authority writing it is.  Exodus 20: 1-2  1 And God spoke all these words:

    2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery

Keep in mind, we must focus on context.  While the Ten Commandments are often referred to as stand alone "documents" they are actualy part of a larger event.  Removing them out of context eliminates some of the emphasis.  this is equivalent to referring to the bill of rights seperate from the constitution.  While able to stand alone, they were meant to be used together.

If you remove the 4th commandment, then you remove the authority of Jesus Christ. Just wait and see, I believe that citizens of the U.S. will soon be FORCED to attend church on Sunday, and also they will be FORCED to accept a New Universal Christ who satisfies all religions!! These two things are already in progress today! The SDA church has been preaching this message for over 150 years: what if they were right all along?

And guess what?  I will accept neither of them.  Christianity is not a religion of force, or coercion, but rather of willful submission to the Allmighty.  

Throughout the Bible, whenever God says something, Satan always questions it. He always puts question marks where there are statements. The first time he did this was of course when the two first lies of human kind were spoken:
1) "You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4)
2) "Ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5)

And weather you want to believe it or not, this is what the Protestantism churches of the world are preaching today through Spiritualism and Pantheism.

I cannot speak for all churches, but the one I go to currently preaches nothing of the sort.

I want to get into this in much more detail, but I don't think I will have time until this weekend (hopefully). I would also like to share about the two Beasts and how the 2nd beast is showing homage to the 1st beast right now today.

I believe that the theory of Evolution will be used to great extent to show that God is less than he really is, and science will be used for the 2nd lie above to show that we are god.

Guys, I feel that it is getting really scary in this world. I believe that we are truly living in the last days. I believe that there are people alive today who will be alive at the second coming. Can you believe that?

I have known God my entire life but only in the last 1/2 year have I honestly and earnestly desired to know God. Is it just coincidence that I just happen to suddenly be so interested in God? Revelation tells me otherwise.

Big Mike, I'd like to request that when you quote me, you ensure that you quote the full relevance of what I say.  I don't feel that I was properly reperesented by the quote about the Authority of Christ being questioned.  You included no explanation (whether you disagree or not) with my statement, which leaves it open to false interpretation for those who don't bother to read all the responses.  As I've stated before, NOTHING can remove the authority of Christ.  there is nothingfor him to defend.  He's already won, and Satan knows it, and every single soul will know it soon.

Thanks!  

[BigMike]

Sorry guys, I did not find time this weekend to share more of my thoughts..

Hopefully I will in the following week

Hope everyone had a good Memorial Weekend

[chim]

It was a good internet free weekend! welcome back everyone!

[weirdtimes_7]

I still have a lot of reading to do here, to catch up.... but i do have some questions....

Wouldn't we know what and when the Mark of the Beast is about us???

And for this Sabath day... have we figured  out if it's supposed to be Saterday or Sunday??? I am very interested in this. I know everyone has been going to church on Sunday since we can all can remember... so since we have been doing this, does this mean that we are wrong in the eyes of God??? Since we have been "trained" to go to church on Sundays?

military_stang

[BLACKDOG]

I still have a lot of reading to do here, to catch up.... but i do have some questions....

Wouldn't we know what and when the Mark of the Beast is about us???

And for this Sabath day... have we figured  out if it's supposed to be Saterday or Sunday??? I am very interested in this. I know everyone has been going to church on Sunday since we can all can remember... so since we have been doing this, does this mean that we are wrong in the eyes of God??? Since we have been "trained" to go to church on Sundays?

military_stang

This is kind of what we are discussing.  I don't think there is any disagreement that the Sabbath is saturday.  However, the discussion that we are having, is the importance of worship on Saturday vs. Sunday. 

As far as I can tell, with my knowledge, that is the primary (and pretty much the only) difference between SDA and other conservative Christian beliefs.  If you read through, you'll be able to see more clearly the debate, and why

[BigMike]

Hey guys,

I know it's been a while since we were into this... I've been wanting to continue the discussion so here goes..

Before you read these following posts, could you just please take a moment right now to stop whatever it is you are doing and relax. This information put me into complete shock when I learned about it, because quite frankly, I live in a rather sheltered world. This information has really opened my mind up to things I never knew were happening. I beg you to please ask for God to give you an open mind right now and to let him guide your thoughts on what I have presented for you to read and ponder on. Thankyou

I have a lot of material, so this is going to take numerous replies to complete. I am going to be quoting a lot of sources, so I would like to state first-hand that I have gotten 90% of this material from a series of DVDs from http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org, from their "Total Onslaught" series with Prof. Walter Veith, former Atheist and world leading Evolutionist.

Please do not take these replies as being judgmental. I plan to write out many quotes. Please do not be angry at me, I am not saying them, I am just quoting them. I am not against Catholics, I have good close Catholic friends, many who are on this forum and my nice and friendly neighbors are Catholic. I'm not against Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, I'm not against any person, but I am against ERROR. Especially error hidden behind a robe of truth.

I want unity, I love unity, God wants unity, but unity in truth not unity in error. Prophecy is very important and I feel it should be taught properly in every church. This information is very hard for me to share, but who will choose to share it?

I'll begin by sort-of branching off of my post above (Reply #142)......

Basically, I fully believe that the world is heading towards a singular World Religion, one that will be a compilation of all current world religions rolled into one, and the the vessel used to setup this religion will be the United Nations.

From this point, one must choose to either accept or reject this new religion. Choose to accept a new religion setup by man, or choose to accept the religion of the Bible. I believe there will be no other way around this if you believe in a god. I don't know how atheists will be treated during this time, but I believe the message of the new world religion will be very clear: Either you are with us or you are against us.

Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit who is now desist, is the father of the New Age movement. He is "one of the most frequently quoted writer by leading New Age occultists" (Gary Kah, En Route to Global Occupation, p.41, 1992) and you can find most of his writings in the United Nations headquarters. Regarding a new world religion,
"…a general convergence of religions upon a universal Christ who satisfies them all: that seems to me the only possible conversion of the world, and the only form in which a religion of the future can be conceived."  - Teilhard de Chardin, P.T., Christianity and Evolution, p.130, 1971

And you know what, I agree with him! He is absolutely right. From a logical viewpoint, this is the only way to get harmony on earth. It is a fact. How are we going to Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Shintuism, all the -ism's in the world to come together in one happy unit if they don't have a universal Christ who satisfies them all? There is no other solution for man kind if we want to have peace on earth and if this is going to be the final home, there is no other solution.

Of course, if you know this is not the final home, and if you know that there is only one Christ, then the picture changes. Either everybody accepts the real Christ, or there is going to be a division into two distinct classes: Those who accept this Universal Christ which satisfies them all, or those who accept the one Christ who said, "I am the Lord of the Sabbath. I am your creator and redeemer. You are mine by creation and by purchase."

This is why I believe there will be this one religion that the world is going to accept. They will have no other choice if they want the kingdom on earth. I know this is getting into New Age doctrine, which is not our point of study right now, but I wanted to quote Chardin to support my idea.

The Seventh Day Adventists have preached for over 150 years that in the end times there will be two distinct groups of people: Those who keep the commandments and testimony of Jesus, and those who have been united in this new world religion:

"...there are but two parties, those who keep the commandments of God and those who war against God’s holy law." – Ellen G. White, Spirit of Prophesy, 8th manuscript, p.6, 1903

But many people say to this, "That’s impossible, how are you going to get everybody into two groups? There are many groups; there are not just two groups. You will never be able to get them together." Which seems true, but when we look behind the scenes, we see that the story is different.

The Bible talks about two distinct groups in the end times:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev. 18:4 KJV
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17 KJV
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you" 2nd Corinthians 6:17 KJV

I believe that we are saved through righteousness by faith. If you acknowledge God as King, and acknowledge his government, and acknowledge his law, you are saying I want to be subject to the sanctifying power of God. This is not works, this is gratefulness. "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV) If we love God with all of our hearts and all of our minds we will be thankful sinners saved by grace.

So I believe that we choose to love and follow God, then we need to follow in his footsteps and keep his commandments. (See James 2:10, John 14:15, 1st John 5:2-3, Ecclesiastes 12:13, Revelation 14:12, and Isaiah 58:14)

Of his commandments, only one gives the authority to God, and that is the 4th command, the Sabbath commandment:
(8 ) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:8-11, KJV

This is the only commandment that proves who the author is: The Creator God (verse 11). Therefore, if you remove this commandment, then you remove God from the entire law. Then it would have no authority and we need not to be intimidated, or bow down to its precepts.

This is what Seventh Day Adventists are all about. The SDA church believes that Satan has setup a false church on earth to lead God's children astray from the truth. I believe that the Catholic church is preaching error, going far astray from the Bible and word of God and has replaced it with man made traditions and apparitions.

One of the most obvious changes to God's law is Sunday worship, and this is purely a creation of the Catholic church:

"The Sunday … is purely a creation of the Catholic Church." – American Catholic Quarterly Review, Jan 1883
"Sunday … It is a law of the Catholic Church alone" – American Sentinel, June 1893
"the observance of Sunday by Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the Catholic Church." – Monsignor Louis Segar, Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today, P.213
"Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic Church 'can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days.'" – S. C. Mosna, ‘Storia della Domenica, 1969 p.366-367
(I quoted more information regarding the change from Sabbath to Sunday worship above in reply #142)

Another message taught not accordance to the Bible is salvation through man by man:
"…He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. Mary is called the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her. The way to salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary…. The salvation of all depends on their being favored and protected by Mary. He who is protected by Mary will be saved: he who is not will be lost… Our salvation depends on three… God will not save us without the intercession of Mary…" – Dave Hunt; A Woman Rides the Beast, p.438

Wait, I thought Jesus is the gate of Heaven?! He is the only door, there is no other!
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 KJV (See also: John 6:47, John 3:16, John 6:40, etc)
So Mary takes the place of Jesus and is a representation of salvation by man through man with the exclusion of the diving component Jesus Christ.

Now I know there are many more, but I wanted to stick to these two right now because Protestantism has already adopted Sunday worship from the Catholic church, and they are about to fully adopt Marian theology today. Does this surprise you?

Billy Graham declared the Pope "The moral leader of the world." - Larry King Live, after the Pope John Paul’s death on April 2, 2005

"The pope was the only one to be a world evangelist; he could visit all faiths – Islam and Judaism. He prepared the way for a religious new world order." – BBC April 2, 2005

[BigMike]

......... Should I keep going?....... this is alot to think about.. I have a lot of information on Mary apparitions from Fatima and Medjugoreje, from Rome's Challenge, the Council of Trent, former Popes, 1844, the new world religion......

Below I begin to jump around on my thoughts......


For instance, from Medjugoreje, what do the Catholic Apparitions say the end time battle is going to be about? The tremendous vision (apparition) of Mary at La Salette, France, approved by the Church, Mary says,
"If my people do not wish to submit themselves, I am forced to let go of the hand of my Son. It is so heavy and weighs me down so much I can no longer keep hold of it. I have suffered all the time for the rest of you! If you do not wish my Son to abandon you, I must take it upon myself to pray for this continually. And the rest of you think little of this. In vain you will pray, in vain you will act, you will never be able to make up for the troubles I have taken over for the rest of you. I gave you six days to work, I kept the seventh for myself, and no on wishes to grant it to me. This is what weighs down the arm of my Son so much." – Published by the Shepherdess of La Salette, with Imprimatur by the Bishop of Lecce
So the Marian Apparition said the SABBATH is the issue!

Continuing......
"Dear children! Today also I wish to tell you: I am with you in these restless days in which Satan wishes to destroy everything which I and my Son Jesus are building up, In a special way he wishes to destroy your souls. He wishes to guide you as far away as possible from Christian life as well as from the commandments" – The Medjugoreje Vision, The Thunder of Justice, 1993, p. 196

"Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday." - www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline December 2003

Or in the Council of Trent, which was over Reformers charging the Catholic Church as "apostatized from the truth as contained in the written word" vs. "The Bible as interpreted by the (Catholic) Church and according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers." - Catholic Mirror, Sept. 1893, Rome’s Challenge, Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?

The Archbishop of Reggio entered the last opening session of Trent, on the 18th of January, 1562, saying the following:
"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith is false. PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath, They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If the truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but the have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the (Catholic) Church. Consequently the claim of 'Scripture along as the standard' fails, and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges." - . J. H. Holtzman, Canon and Tradition, page 263, 1859

For the protestants, there were no getting around this, for their own statement of faith—the Augsburg Confession, 1530—had clearly admitted that "the true observation of the Lord's day had been appointed by the Catholic Church only."
So the reformation lost at the council of Trent BECAUSE OF THE SABBATH.

It is my belief that when the reformation did not complete the work, God raised up the Seventh Day Adventist Church to be the only true protestant church. And if you look closely at the Catholic church, you will see that they too only regard the SDA church as being the "only consistent Protestant church".

What does the Catholic Church say about the SDA church? Remember, it is not me saying this, I am quoting!

"Popular Protestantism is Indefensible, self-contradictory, and suicidal. What will these Protestants, what will this Protestantism do?" – Archbishop Reggio

"But the Protestant says: How can I receive the teachings of an apostate Church? How, we ask, have you managed to receive her teachings all you life, in direct opposition to your recognized teacher, the Bible, on the Sabbath question…. Those who follow the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and the Seventh-Day Adventists have the exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the Biblical Protestant has not a word in self defense for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday…. The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its page for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, "Seventh-day Adventists." ....
No protestant living today has ever yet obeyed that command (the Sabbath), preferring to follow the "apostate church" referred to than his teacher the Bible, which from Genesis to Revelation, teaches no other doctrine …. Let the Bible decide whether Saturday or Sunday be the day enjoined by God. One of the two bodies must be wrong." - Catholic Mirror, Sept 9, 1893 p.29-30

"The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." – The Question Box, The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p.4

"People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday Holy." - The Cardinal from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church wrote in their Sentinel, May 11, 1995
This is why I choose to be a Seventh Day Adventist!

"The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right. There can be no other choice." – www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline , December 2003

How many groups? TWO. The whole world in unity with one group, and the other group which they have defined here with their own mouths as the Seventh-Day Adventists. There are only two world-wide Christian denominations, One is Rome and the other is the SDA.

The Catholic Church approved that "Lucifer was unleased in 1864" LaSalette, France, 1864
The Seventh-Day Adventist Church was officially formed in 1863. Was this just merely a coincidence?

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–-those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Revelation 12:17 NIV

These are the pillars the SDA church stands on:
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:142 KJV
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151 KJV
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 KJV

(6) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:6-7

Salvation by Grace, Salvation by Faith, Righteous by Faith, and worship Him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the fountains of water, the seal of God--the Sabbath--a memorial of his creation.

"The Catholic Church says Genesis is 'nonsense'…. Vatican Thinking Evolves… Pope gives his blessings to Natural Selection." – The Sunday Times, December 6, 1997, p.17

These are two messages! Either God says he is what he is or he's not!

[BigMike]

How about the Great Disappointment of 1844? If you know SDA church history, you will know that it is from this that the SDA church is formed! The White family were Millerites at this time. I don't see it as a disappointment and certainly neither does Satan! Just look at what the devil was up to in 1844, remember this is when Jesus moved from the courtyard into the Holy Place:

Karl Marx started writing the "Communist Manifesto" in 1844 and published it in 1848.
Darwin wrote the his first draft to "The Origin of Species" in 1844
The Bahal faith was founded in 1844. This is the main faith of the United Nations, "come together we are all one". This faith is largely enforced by Spiritualism, their is no Death, Theosophy, which was founded by channeled messages to Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, and Annie Ward Besant her successor. And also by Alice A. Bailey (1880-1949) who was the prophetess of the New Age Movement, who received channeled messages from the Tibetan Djwal Khul.
The Codex Sinaiticus manuscript that was discovered in 1844 at Mt. Sinal in the Monastery of St. Catherine. It agrees with the Codex Vaticanus "discovered" in 1481 in the Vatican library:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 KJV
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Genesis 3:15 Douay-Rheims Online Bible
In this Catholic Bible, Mary takes the place of Jesus.



..................


"What the world needs today is a convergence of the different religions in the search for and definition of the cosmic or divine laws which ought to regulate our behavior on this planet. World-wide spiritual ecumenism" – New Genesis: Shaping a Global Spirituality, R. Muller 1982 "Ecumenical is derived from the Greek term oikoumene, which may be translated as 'the whole inhabited world'." – WCC

"My great personal dream is to get a tremendous alliance between all the major religions and the UN." – Muller. 1982, New Genesis: Shaping a Global Spirituality

"The final object of ecumenism, as Catholics conceive it, is unity in Faith, worship, and the acknowledgement of supreme spiritual authority of the Bishop of Rome." – Priest J. Cornell




I am totally off track and will stop here.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

BigMike,

This is an interesting read.  I had a few thoughts as I read it and will try to keep my comments short.  In general I am in full agreement, but I differ on some of the specifics that I'm not sure the Bible provides enough detail to fully know and understand.

I'm not bold enough to say that the world will end up being a Seventh-day Adventist or part of the "other" church, but I do believe that the righteous will be Sabbath Keepers in the end which can be done outside of the the SDA organized church.

An intersting fact is that when the SDA church was founded, they were only called Adventist and actually kept Sunday rather than Sabbath.  It was during their studies that one of them realised the error.  In fact, I'm nearly positive that William Miller, who was one of the pillars was never a Sabbath keeper during his lifetime.

 

[BigMike]

but I do believe that the righteous will be Sabbath Keepers in the end which can be done outside of the the SDA organized church.

I believe the same thing and I have a couple friends who hold their own church meetings at home on Saturdays and who follow the Bible's health codes, etc, but they do not profess to being Seventh Day Adventists. In fact, I buy my gasoline from a Shell gas station near my house that is closed from Friday at sundown until Sunday morning. Inside they have many fliers about God and the Bible, and when I asked if the owner was Seventh Day Adventist, the worker told me he is not and that he just believes in the Bible and the Bible alone.

Once Seventh Day Adventists and any other group who keeps the Sabbath are forced to leave the cities and live on their own, they won't really have a real church to go to anyways...

[Cheesemaker]

WOW!  Mike you've been busy!  I read most of it, I'll re-read it all in depth again later. 

I have tried to stay away from this post for some time now, but I felt that I need to post my feelings.  I first want to say that I have many friends and family of all religions, including a Rabi.  And I've sat down and talked about the basics of their religions.  And I agree with Bigmike about the one religion to some degree.  I'm not religious, we don't believe in organized religion, my close and personal friends know how I feel about this.  I have been to many different churches, and religions, to try to see if I wanted to belong to a church, to see what it's all about, but all I ever got was how this church/religion is only church/religion to believe in!  My wife and I believe there is a higher power, there are things that can't be explained, but I'm not gonna say what religion/god is right!  If you boil down all the religions to their basics, they are all the same.  They are all about peace, love and be kind to your neighbor, whatever their color, beliefs and/or religion.

We follow the bible as a guideline on how to run your life.  We don't treat the bible as the final word.  It's a proven fact historically that the bible has been edited through time!  Who truly knows whats god's word, or what has been changed to fit the times!  I despise people that hate gay people just because the bible tells them too!  Or anything else.  That is pure ignorance.  My wife has a friend that was raised by the old testament and hates gays with a passion, because the bible tells her it's wrong!  That's just closing your mind to the world.  I just ask people to have a open mind and to make an educated decision.  Just don't believe that the bible is the only word, and don't vote on a president, because your minister says to vote for this guy.  (my step-mom)   Or that the dinosaurs never existed because the bible doesn't talk about them! 

I don't intend to upset anyone on how I feel, or what I believe in!  We are all open minded on this board, we are all able to say what we say as long as it's not meant to offend!  I respect what people think!  And this is how we feel, and think.  That's all I ask. 

Thank you!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I despise people that hate gay people just because the bible tells them too!  Or anything else.  That is pure ignorance.  My wife has a friend that was raised by the old testament and hates gays with a passion, because the bible tells her it's wrong!  That's just closing your mind to the world. 

It is possible to love the sinner but hate the sin.  Sin is sin and we all fall short of the glory of God so we are all equal.  There is a difference between loving and accepting the sinner without condoning the sin.

Another thought that I had earlier reading BigMikes post was that I recently hear that one of the "ism" religions was actually getting really close with the Catholic church.

[BigMike]

I've re-read what I am getting into above, and I wanted to just add the following...

I am NOT saying that one may only be saved in a certain religion. The Lord "winks" his eye at ignorance (need the source for this). I am NOT saying that Church A is better than Church B.

The reason why I think this is important is because the Bible tells about a counterfeit religion in the end times that will deceive many and many will be lost because of this. Revelation 18:4 (KJV):
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Satan is not an idiot, he is a highly intelligent being!! Many people associate the devil with horns and such, but no, he must be a very beautiful and majestic angel for he was an angel for God in the past!

Satan is so smart that even the highest ranking Bible scholars and theologians will be deceived in the end times:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matt. 24:24

Once people are deceived and are bought into this false counterfeit religion, the Bible warns they will do horrible things without knowing they are in error:
"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death." Luke 21:16 KJV
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think he doeth God service." John 16:2 KJV

This is why I feel it is important for everyone to act on their curiosity, question where your beliefs originated from. Protestantism is dieing all around us and yet very few are willing to speak up about it.

I am not trying to invoke fear into you. This is the moment we have been waiting for! This is not a time to be afraid, this is a time to stand for Jesus.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 KJV

[chim]

I agree that the world is heading towards a one world religion. But... Im going to strongly disagree with your whole sabbath argument... I wish that SDA's put as much effort into the other commandments as they do with the sabbath commandment. If being part of the true church is following the sabbath commandment and thats how its identified.. thats crazy! I will continue to go to church on Sunday and Wednesday and whatever days we organize stuff. And when the anti-christ is revealed, and Im still here and havent been raptured.. then I can guarantee you that I will not be joining and universal church.. so how do you account for that? Are you saying I will have to be SDA to be in the true church of God... see this is where people get messed up.. when they say you have to be part of a certain group to be part of the true church. Thats messed up, and thats not biblical.. just the fact alone that someone says their organization is the true one because they do certain things should throw up a red flag immediately!

[BigMike]

I wish I was more open minded like many here are. I envy this. I am very open minded about many things, at times I personally feel open minded about all things, but then there are certain things that I can't clear my mind on. Religion certainly is one.

Remember, I am not saying anything. Read the quotes.


It is too late to continue, so just a couple quick thoughts:
--Did you know that Jesus will not even touch this planet until long after the resurrection and his people are in heaven? That cancels out all false Christs right there.

--Did you know that the nativity scene is incorrect? How old was Jesus when the wise men came to him? Are you sure? Was he in a manger? Are you sure?

[BLACKDOG]

I wish I was more open minded like many here are. I envy this. I am very open minded about many things, at times I personally feel open minded about all things, but then there are certain things that I can't clear my mind on. Religion certainly is one.

Remember, I am not saying anything. Read the quotes.


It is too late to continue, so just a couple quick thoughts:
--Did you know that Jesus will not even touch this planet until long after the resurrection and his people are in heaven? That cancels out all false Christs right there.

--Did you know that the nativity scene is incorrect? How old was Jesus when the wise men came to him? Are you sure? Was he in a manger? Are you sure?

Not to get off topic, but our sunday school class is reading/doing an interesting study on heaven right now.  The book we are using is called Heaven, by Randy Alcorn. 

Back to the Nativity scene, yes, I am well aware that it is incorrect.  I am not positive of how old Jesus was when the wise men came but I do know he was less than 2 years old, otherwise it would have been pointless for Herod to order the killing of boys 2 years or younger in the area (Matthew chapter 2) I do know he was not in the barn, but he was still in Bethlehem when they came to visit him.  However, Luke does say that after Jesus' parents fulfilled the law of the Lord, they returned home to Galilee.  So I'm not positive exactly when the wise men came, but Its clear enough to me that they came to Bethlehem, and He was less than 2 years old, but by that time they had a room, and were not in the stable any longer. 

I don't believe I am all that open minded when it comes to religion.  To me, God makes it very clear that the only way to Heaven is through his Son, Jesus Christ.  Without a doubt, you should follow His commandments, there is no question there.  However, does that mean that you absolutely have to in order to get to Heaven?  no, not at all.  I think one of the problems with religion (All sects and denominations) is the legalism that we have today.  I also believe that is why Jesus really witnessed to those that he did, because the Pharisees figured they had all the answers.  They were so stuck on the laws, that they were devoid of comapssion.  Jesus cared more for the people than for the law.  One story brought to mind is when Jesus stopped the crowd from stoning the woman caught in the act of adultery.  We think that is a great story of God's grace, but in reality, Jesus broke the Mosaic Law, set down by God!  The crowd was legally in the right in stoning the woman, in accordance with God's laws.  However, Jesus was more concerned for her well being, and her salvation, than he was in upholding the law.  I believe that is where churches lose sight of God today.  Yes, Jesus came to uphold the law, and not do away with it, but he also came to form a tangible relationship with his people.  Churches get so stuck on legalism that they forget the importance of Christ's teachings.  Often times it wasn't what he said, but HOW he said it, or HOW he did it.  However, people then, and today were so focused on the content of what he said, rather than the context, so they missed, and continue to miss the point today. 

I apologize if this is compleltely off topic,  as you may tell, I'm having some issues with the church in general, my church especially(not God)  and I'm trying to figure things out for myself, with God's help   

[chim]

I just want to say that there are false Christs even now among us.. those professing to be the Jesus Christ incarnate, and there are false Christs that we cant see, and those are the ones that other religions teach about that dont conform with the Christ of the Bible.. i.e. Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, etc.. they believe in a Christ thats different than the Bible, therefor making that a false Christ.

I agree with what you say Blackdog, and just want to reiterate the fact that when an organization says that they are the true way to Heaven then that should throw up a red flag right there.. its about the relationship with God, not with a "church". God saves, not churches.

BTW - We had studies on Heaven using Randy Alcorns book too..  very good stuff

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Without a doubt, you should follow His commandments, there is no question there.  However, does that mean that you absolutely have to in order to get to Heaven?  no, not at all. 

This is an interesting statement.  If we should follow his commandments, why only nine of the ten?  I agree that following the commandments has nothing to do with salvation, but keeping the commandments is evidence of a relationship with God and a sign of our willingness to do his will.

[chim]

I see where you are going with this BD... but look at the new testament definition of the sabbath... or what about fornication.. these things have changed! If you want to be an old testament saint.. go ahead.. and good luck.. but this is the time of grace and more knowledge in the light of Christ and what he proclaimed.

[BigMike]

Of course the Bible says:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10 KJV

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:19 KJV

To me, Matt 5:19 could be understood two ways:
1) The person is in heaven and he/she is "called the least" in heaven.
2) The person did not enter heaven, and those who are in heaven call him/her "the least" from heaven.



Here is what I used to wonder:

Consider a tribe in Africa who worship a cactus. They have never heard about God or Jesus, instead they think this cactus is their god. And somehow some rules in the past were created and they are considered the rules of the cactus.

So one day a 6 yr old boy, a member of this tribe, is out playing in the desert and he gets killed by a hyena.

Now, this boy lived up to the cactus. He worshiped it and followed its belief and law system and was holy and true to the cactus god.

Question for you: What will his future be? Will be resurrected at the 2nd coming?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Chim - God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

By choosing a 6 year old, you open the door to the age of accountability. 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

or what about fornication.. these things have changed!

At the risk of going on a "bunny trail" I'm curious what the definition of fornication is in the Old Testiment compared to the New Testiment.  Please provide Biblical support for your answers.  This is, honestly, new to me.

I think BigMike has done a fair job of support the Sabbath in the New Testiment and we have already covered it several times so I'm not going into that discussion again.  It's BigMikes turn.