What do you think of Christ?

[yota83]

CTENG... then quit reading the post! lol, j/k.

I like this topic.... my views:
  I believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect son of God.  I believe that he is fully man and fully God. On top of that I believe he died, rose again, and is alive and well today. I KNOW that I have an active relationship with Him and he is my salvation. Additionally, I believe he is the only perfect being to ever walk the earth and that he will return again someday.

Matt

what are you talking about? he did my laundry yesterday. JK!!!

god is good. i beleive in god just dont beleive in the church!!
i was raised baptist and couldnt stand the two faced way of the churches that i utended. 13 in my life to be exact.

[chim]

If you believe in  God, you Are part of the church! Organized religion is good and bad..  dont take the experience of one place and assume they are all like that..  without a church to go to our growth is limited. But its all about our personal relationship with Christ.

[blackdiamond]

If you believe in  God, you Are part of the church! Organized religion is good and bad..  dont take the experience of one place and assume they are all like that..  without a church to go to our growth is limited. But its all about our personal relationship with Christ.

Mainstream Christianity has it's roots in the Catholic church (who admittedly changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as a mark of their authority), this is why they call themsselves the mother church.  If you know anything about Catholics and Adventists it isn't a good denominational relationship (this isn't a personal issue between individuals, but with the system).  Even with the strong criticism from the SDA church about the Catholics, one of them can still be quoted saying that anyone who believes that the Bible is the #1 authority (essentially don't believe the Pope has authority) then they should be SDA Christians.

I will start working on things more tonight, the list is getting long of things to discuss.

[chim]

I was making a point that Christ called the believers the "Church" not any particular organization.

[blackdiamond]

I was making a point that Christ called the believers the "Church" not any particular organization.

I lost my connection along with my last post...grrr.

You made the statement earlier that, "Since orthodox Christianity has always taught Heaven or Hell and the continuation of the soul, then the burden of proof is in your lap to prove that the unbelieving soul goes to eternal sleep, or caput.. or whatever."  You of all people on the board should know the danger of accepting the teachings of the church simply because it is what has been taught.  We are all responsible for our own understanding.

I will be posting a Bible study that I have done in sections since it is 25 pages long and consists or about 90% Bible quotes with a few added statements as transitions and to make points.  In the words of some great person somewhere in history, "Prepare to defend yourself!" 

[blackdiamond]

Scripture reveals that the eternal God is immortal.

1 Timothy 1:17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.  Amen."  NIV

He alone has immortality (uncreated, self-existent, and has no beginning and no end).

1 Timothy 6:16 "...who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.  To him be honor and might forever.  Amen."  NIV

The Scriptures nowhere describe immortality as a quality or state that man, or is soul/spirit, possessed inherently.  The terms "spirit" or "soul" occur more than 1,600 times in the Bible, but never in association with the words "immortal" or" immortality."

In contrast to God, human beings are mortal.  Scripture compares their lives with "a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away."

James 4:14 "Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow.  What is your life?  You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes."  NIV

Psalms 78:39 "He remembered that they were but flesh, a passing breeze that does not return."  NIV

Job 14:2 "He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure."

God is infinite and humans are finite.

The Creation account reveals that humanity derived life from God.

Genesis 2:7 "...the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  NIV

Acts 17:25 "And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."  NIV

Colossians 1:16-17 "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."  NIV

The corollary of this basic fact is that immortality is not innate to humanity but God's gift.

When God created Adam and Eve, He gave them free will, the power of choice.  They could obey or disobey and their continued existence depended upon continual obedience through God's power.  Their gift of immortality was conditional.

Genesis 2:17 "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."  NIV

Satan contradicted God's warning when he told Adam and Eve that disobedience would not bring death.

Genesis 3:4 "'You will not surely die,' the serpent said to the woman, 'For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'"  NIV

Adam and Eve discovered that the wages of sin is indeed death.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."  NIV

Genesis 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."  NIV

After giving this sentence, God barred them from the tree of life.

Note that God said that man is dust, not dust + soul.

Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like us, knowing good and evil.  He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'"  NIV

This made it clear that the immortality promised on the condition of obedience was lost through sin.  Man had now become mortal, subject to death.  Adam could no longer transmit what he no longer possessed.

Romans 5:12-14 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned – for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.  Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. "  NIV

Quote from the Life Application Study Bible (NLT) supplemental notes.
"Paul has shown that keeping the law does not bring salvation.  Here he adds that breaking the law is not what brings death.  Death is the result of Adam's sin and of the sins we all commit, even if they don't resemble Adam's.  Paul reminds his readers that for thousands of years the law had not yet been explicitly given and yet people died.  The law was added, he explains in 5:20, to help people see their sinfulness to show them the seriousness of their offenses, and to drive them to God for mercy and pardon.  This was true in Moses' day, and it is still true today."

It was only God's mercy that kept Adam and Eve from dying immediately.  The Son of God offered to give His life so that they (we) might have another chance.

Revelation 13:8 "All in habitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."  NIV

Even though we are mortal, the Bible encourages us to seek immortality.

Romans 2:7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life."  NIV

Christ is the source of our immortality (salvation from sin).

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."  NIV

1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

2 Timothy 1:10 "...but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."  NIV

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."  NIV

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."  NIV

Note that the dead are in their graves and they rise to live at the second coming.

(continued)

[blackdiamond]

If Christ had not come, the human condition would have been hopeless and all who died would have perished eternally.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."  NIV

Paul assures us that it is the Holy Scriptures that are able to make us "wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

2 Timothy 3:14-15 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."  NIV

To me this means that we need to study the Bible carefully for all truth.

1 Corinthians 15-51-54 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true" 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'"  NIV

This makes it very clear that God bestows immortality on the believer at the resurrection and not at the time of death.  While John points out that we receive the gift of eternal life when we accept Christ, the actual realization of this gift takes place when Christ returns.

If death is the cessation of life, what does the Bible say about a person's condition in death?

Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection.  The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep or rest.

1 Kings 2:10 "Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of David."  NIV

1 Kings 11:43 "Then he rested with his fathers and was buried in the city of David his father..."  NIV

1 Kings 14:20 "He reigned for twenty-two years and then rested with his fathers..."  NIV

1 Kings 15:8 "And Abijah rested with his fathers..."  NIV

2 Chronicles 21:1 "Then Jehosaphat rested with his fathers and was buried with them in the City of David..."  NIV

2 Chronicles 26:23 "Uzziah rested with his fathers and was buried near them in a field for burial..." NIV

Job, David, Jeremiah and Daniel all called death a sleep in the Old Testament.

Job 14:10-12 "But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.  As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep."  NIV

Psalms 13:3 "Look on me and answer, O Lord my God.  Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death..."  NIV

Jeremiah 51:39 "'But while they are aroused, I will set out a feast for them and make them drunk, so that they shout with laughter – then sleep forever and not awake,' declares the Lord."  NIV

Jeremiah 51:57 "...they will sleep forever and not awake..." NIV

Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth with awake: some to everlasting life, others to everlasting contempt."  NIV

The New Testament uses the same imagery.

Matthew 9:24 "...he said, 'Go away.  The girl is not dead but asleep.'  But they laughed at him."  NIV

Mark 5:39 "He went in and said to them, 'Why all this commotion and wailing?  The child is not dead but asleep.'"  NIV

John 11:11-14 "After he had said this, he went on to tell them, 'Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.'  His disciples replied, 'Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.'  Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.  So then he told them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe.  But let us go to him.'"  NIV

This is a key verse to show that Christ meant death when He referred to sleep.

Acts 7:60 "Then he fell on his knees and cried out, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'  When he had said this, he (Stephen) fell asleep."  NIV

Peter and Paul call death a sleep.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.  We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1st resurrection).  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them I the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (His feet do not touch the ground).  And so we will be with the Lord forever."  NIV

Note that the living do NOT precede those who have fallen asleep, or died, into heaven.

The Biblical representation of death as a sleep clearly fits its nature, as the following texts demonstrate:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.  Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun."  NIV

Psalms 146:4 "When their spirit (God's breath of life) departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."  NIV

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."  NIV

Psalms 115:7 "It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to silence."  NIV

To understand what happens at death, it is important to understand what makes up human nature.  At times the Bible uses the word soul to refer to the whole person and at other times to affections and emotions.  It does not teach that man comprises two separate parts.  Body and soul only exist together.  At creation, dust of the ground (earth's elements) and the breath of life combined to form a living being.

Genesis 2:7 "- the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."  NIV

Adam didn't receive a soul, he became a living soul.  At death, the dust of the ground minus the breath of life equals a dead person without any consciousness.

Psalms 146:4 "When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."  NIV

Genesis 3:19 "...until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."  NIV

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that the soul survives as a conscious entity.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die.  The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.  The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."  NIV

The Old Testament calls the place where people go at death sheol (Hebrew) and the New Testament hades (Greek).  In the Scripture, sheol most often simply means the grave, the meaning of hades is similar.

Psalms 89:48 "What man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave?"  NIV

Genesis 37:35 "All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted.  'No," he said, in mourning will I go down to the grave to my son."  So his father wept for him."  NIV  (Jacob and Joseph)

When Christ died, He went into the grave (hades) but at the Resurrection His soul left the grave.

Acts 2:27 "...because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."  NIV

Psalms 16:10 "...because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."  NIV

When David thanked God for healing, he testified that his soul was saved from the grave.

Psalms 30:3 "O Lord, you brought me up from the grave you spared me from going down into the pit."  NIV

The spirit goes back to God where it came from.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "...and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."  NIV

Many have thought that this text gives evidence that the essence of the person continues to live after death.  But in the Bible, neither the Hebrew or the Greek term for spirit (ruach and pneuma, respectively) refers to an intelligent entity capable of a conscious existence apart from the body.  Rather, these terms refer to the "breath" – the spark of life essential to individual existence.

According to Solomon, at death there is no difference between the spirits of man and beast.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 "Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other.  All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal.  Everything is meaningless.  All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return."  NIV

This is a good place for a break and chance for discussion.

[blackdiamond]

As a side note (I don't want this topic to overshadow the two posts above) I made the statment earlier that nearly all mainstream Christian religions (those that worship on Sunday) have roots in the Catholic church.  As evidence I found the following link on the internet.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/st-cath.htm

[gotrocksgirl]

Chim, I am really impressed with your decision. I am a Seventh Day Adventist, but my family's roots started in the  Mormon church. Kudos to you for your call to stand apart. That is somethiing  I look up to you for. It may seem horrible to you right now, but what God has waiting for you is something to look forward to. Remember everyone, it isn't hard to accept God's salvation. It is a free gift, all you have to do is accept it, and ask God into your heart everyday. You don't have to do things to gain your salvation.

--> Only dead fish swim with the sea.<-- Just remember that quote.

[chim]

Wow, there are a lot of Seventh Day Adventists on here!   Thanks for what you said Rocksgirl, but in all honesty, i didnt make a decision.. I would have never have chosen to loose my family.. if i knew what laid before me way back then I dont know if I would have had the strength..  what I do know now is that God gives me the strength to continue.. and looking back now it was all a part of Gods plan. Now I am curious to see what he has for me next! I have a good healthy fear of the Lord now!

What I meant by Orthodox Christianity is that what is taught is what makes the most sense and what has been backed up by scripture for centuries! This is one of the principles that the Christian church agrees on... Just like the Trinity.. or Christ rising from the dead on the 3rd day.

You can sight a bunch of scripture on sleep but what does the Lord Jesus Christ say about it... Look at the latter portion of Matthew 25: and you will see that Christ tells the story of a rich man and a poor man.. its not a parable.. its a story.... and Christ never lied to make a point. He talks about both men being very conscience of whats going on.. while the rich man is being tormented he is talking to Abraham and the poor man and knows exaclty whats going on... this doesnt indicate sleep to me.. and this is the "clearest" picture we have of what happens to us when we die and our conscious state.

You quote right here..
1 Corinthians 15-51-54 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true" 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'"  NIV

The dead will be raised imperishable? That means that they dont just go caput?
When you give all these verses you cant just do a word search and toss them out because some of these refer to being spiritually dead.. and those are the non-believers... there are others that are dead to themselves..  those are the believers because now we are alive in Christ. These verses about death and sleeping are terms used in that time to just represent that the person in context is not alive right now on this earth..  again.. look at what Christ said in matthew..  is he a liar? He is the authority on the subject.

When responding, lets stick to one item... and not write a book on the subject, its hard to keep track on an item and hit each scripture passage with the attention it needs.

[germ]

Well, been watching the thread for a couple of days, and I think I finally have the time to jump in and comment on a few things. In no particular order, here they are....

One thing that is very common with non-Christian organizations or "cults" is that they use the same Christian terminology but attached to those terms are completely different meanings..  Thats how most people get sucked in, they think it sounds good.. then as they go they get indoctrinated with more false teachings. Its like boiling a frog...  All these organizations or cults will make Christ out to be less than he is, and he is nothing less than the Son of God, God himself!

You make a very good point here, but I also think there are several "christian" groups who do the same thing. There are many preachers who tell their congeregation to listen to "THEIR" words, and not read the Bible. The mark of a good preacher or "religion" is one that tells you to go read the Bible yourself to verify what they are saying. Anyone who steers you away from the Bible is at risk of false teachings.

That was a great example of the longsuffering of God. Now for nearly 2000 years he has been warning us again....  Choose him and live with him eternally or not accept his free gift and suffer eternally.. I think 200o years of warning is a picture of a just loving God who has given us plenty of time to choose. Plus who are we to say what type of plan he should have..  the clay doesnt tell the potter what it should do.. we are here for him.. we are here according to his purpose. its not about us.. so if his plan involves ertnal hell for those who dont believe who are we to say thats not fair. or thats not just.... I thank God he has given us as much warning as he has... as far a how you laid out the plan of the end times..  I dont necessarily agree with all of it...  but regardless its not vital to our salvation...   

Couldn't have said it better myself....

Let me ask you this though... Do you believe that Christs sacrifice was good enough to where once Im saved I am always saved, and I can never loose my salvation?

We've had a lengthy discussion about this. BLACKDOG has brought up some very good points on this subject. Personally, I think that as long as you maintain your relationship with God, once your saved, your always saved. I do however believe that you can loose your salvation if you turn away from God. Once you know God, and his commandments, you are obligated to follow his word if you wish to make it to Heaven. You can't accept Christ's salvation, then go and live in such a manner as to go against his teachings and still expect to be saved.

If what you say is true then there is a chance we could loose our salvation, even though Christ said it was Eternal Life, meaning forever, not just 3 months life, or 3 years life, or however long your good for....That makes me sad that people have to live in fear that they could loose their salvation!

Eternal life in this instance, refers to living with Christ in heaven for eternity. You have to reach salvation first. However, once Christ returns, and the final judgment has been passed, it is eternal life. I don't know enough about Heaven to know if it is possible to loose salvation once Christ has taken us to Heaven, but I'm reminded of Lucifer, who has obviously lost his opportunity for salvation.

I know as a mormon we were just warned to stay away from people who asked questions and wanted answers. But if we are confident in what we believe in, there should be nothing to worry about

Hmmmm, That is scary to me. Any group that tries to shield their members from learning more and questioning sounds more like a "cult".

so im gonna be damned forever and burn in a gigantic fire with a bunch of other ignorant people who didnt realize jesus christ died for there sins? just because i didnt believe in what other people told me or what i read in a book? just like half the garbage you read in a magazine or a newspaper or on the television or internet today, that is actually false or twisted? you want me to believe in a story thats thousands of years old when bill clinton lied about monicas lips being on his...just years ago?

ill never know, and i dont trust stories or the media, so im gonna burn forever? if your god is that cruel...

It's not that God is cruel. He has told us who he is, and what the consequences are. It's like being a parent. You have to give consequences to your children in order to guide them down the right path. The reward for obedience is "X", the consequence for not obeying is "Y". It's your choice. Has nothing to do with cruelty as I see it.

Most churches and Christians are a waste of time IMO...condeming too many folks for the speck in their eye while hitting them over the head with the log in their own...Matthew 7 I believe.

I have a high regard for Christ, it is most of his followers I can't tolerate.

Your right to a large extent. Many churches and their members are hypocrites, and do not reflect the true teachings of Christ. It's a shame, because these people are missing out on the true love and peace they could have.


I will try and post up some more later. Unfortunatly, I'm too busy right now.

Erik

[blackdiamond]

"You can sight a bunch of scripture on sleep but what does the Lord Jesus Christ say about it... Look at the latter portion of Matthew 25: and you will see that Christ tells the story of a rich man and a poor man.. its not a parable.. its a story.... and Christ never lied to make a point. He talks about both men being very conscience of whats going on.. while the rich man is being tormented he is talking to Abraham and the poor man and knows exaclty whats going on... this doesnt indicate sleep to me.. and this is the "clearest" picture we have of what happens to us when we die and our conscious state."

I will post more on this tonight, if you look at many of the details of the story it become obvious that there are problems with it being actual reality.

"1 Corinthians 15-51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true" 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'  NIV

The dead will be raised imperishable? That means that they dont just go caput?"

In order to understand this text you have to understand the difference between the 1st resurrection and the 2nd resurrection described in Revelation.  This text is describing what happens to the righteous (dead and alive) when Christ returns.  The wicked died at the 2nd coming, the wicked dead remain in the grave and both are raised at the 2nd resurrection for their final judgement.

[blackdiamond]

"You can sight a bunch of scripture on sleep but what does the Lord Jesus Christ say about it... Look at the latter portion of Matthew 25: and you will see that Christ tells the story of a rich man and a poor man.. its not a parable.. its a story.... and Christ never lied to make a point. He talks about both men being very conscience of whats going on.. while the rich man is being tormented he is talking to Abraham and the poor man and knows exaclty whats going on... this doesnt indicate sleep to me.. and this is the "clearest" picture we have of what happens to us when we die and our conscious state."

I think quite a few of the texts that I referenced were from Jesus Christ.  The whole Bible has to fit together from cover to cover, so how do you explain the Genesis account of mortal man starting as dust and ending as dust, or that we are no better than the animals or the fact that the gift of God is eternal life?  If I end up buring in hell for all eternity I will still have existence, obviously, but since God didn't give me eternal life then I am some how sustaining my life without Him, so why do I need Him at all?

What happened to Jesus for the three days that He was dead, where did He go or do during that time period since He is our example?

[blackdiamond]

It seems that everyone wants to take Revelation 20:10 literally, so lets examine it closely.

Revelation 20:7-10

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

In verse 7 Satan is released and in verse 8 he goes out to deceive the nations (the wicked people of the world) to gather for battle against God.

9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

In verse 9 Satan leads the wicked people to surround the holy city and fire comes down and devours them.  Devours is a very final word.

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now read verse 10 very carefully and you will see that the DEVIL, the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are thown into the lake of fire and  they will be tormented (the wicked people were already devoured in verse 9).

I don't believe that this is the case, but in a literal reading I still don't see how the wicked people are not caput.

Do God's laws ever change?  No.  Does this included the physical laws of nature?  Yes.  What happens carbon based things that are placed into a fire?  They burn up.  If Nature is God's 2nd book, why would He teach things in the Bible that are contrary to nature?  There are only two examples in the Bible of things surviving in a fire, the burning bush and the three Hebrews, both were a direct result of God, He was even seen in the fire with the three Hebrews.  The logical conclusion is that for us to survive a fire God would have to give us the strength, and if it was an eternal fire then He would have to give us eternal life...hmmm.

[*FFC*]

The bible teaches that un believers will go to hell... scary stuff...  but Christ taught more on Hell than he ever did on Heaven.

Ok, I'm realllly late in catchin up on this thread.  I don't agree with that sentence.  That Non Believers will go to Hell.  Yeah the Bible states something to that effect, but also, what about the people that don't know? What about the people in African jungles that live and die with no other knowledge other than a Witch Doctor? I believe that our Saviour is a merciful one.  I believe that he is not going to judge by whether or not you believe in him, he's gonna consider the fact that some people never had the chance, and he's gonna judge by how they lived their lives. If a person is doing what they wholeheartedly believe is right, then by all means, the Big Man upstairs ain't gonna send em to hell for it.

[chim]

I dont know if we are going to go around and around in circles forever on this subject..  but I know the the difference between the 1st and 2nd resurrection very well..... Its very clear that the 2nd resurrection is for the WHite Throne Judgement, which is the judgement of non-believers where they will be judged and send to the lake of fire as stated in Revelation 20.

The reason there is a gap between the two resurrections is because after the 1st resurrection this will be the time of the great tribulation after the believers have been taken up.

Check out this link.. this book is perfect.. it lays everything out in charts so you can see it and its the least confusing book out there...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0736901388/qid=1127329398/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-1594106-9225552?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"1 Corinthians 15-51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true" 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'  NIV

"We will not all sleep" meaning we will not all die.. there will be a generation that doesnt die.
"But we will all be changed  - in a flash...." Christ will gather his church... RAPTURE
"The dead will raise imperishable and will be changed" - the dead will raise first, and never die again and will be changed.. new body
"The perishable must clothe itself...." - We being the perishable and mortal be now be imperishable and immortal
"WHen the perishable...... " - we will have conquered death as Christ has.. only because of Christ.

Nothing here indicates Eternal sleep for anyone.. believers or non-believers.

[Toy4therock]

  Well, after Id give him one of these and for the fact he and the oldman went on vacation for far to long and left me to fight four long years and rolling with satin and his son.Or Id swear for anything to have gone even close to as all mighty and shitty as those had been.IM TALKING WAY BAD! But then if they threw me a peace sign! Id have to assume the position of holly earl and his brother thou!Personally  Im sure theres a vacancy sign hanging where the cat used to hangout! As Id seen nada hide hair even any nair! And this last grusome has made me GREEN!

[*FFC*]

Well, after Id give him one of these and for the fact he and the oldman went on vacation for far to long and left me to fight four long years and rolling with satin and his son.Or Id swear for anything to have gone even close to as all mighty and shitty as those had been.IM TALKING WAY BAD! But then if they threw me a peace sign! Id have to assume the position of holly earl and his brother thou!Personally  Im sure theres a vacancy sign hanging where the cat used to hangout! As Id seen nada hide hair even any nair! And this last grusome has made me GREEN!

Ok, wow, now I'm confused

[chim]

I think quite a few of the texts that I referenced were from Jesus Christ.  The whole Bible has to fit together from cover to cover, so how do you explain the Genesis account of mortal man starting as dust and ending as dust, or that we are no better than the animals or the fact that the gift of God is eternal life?  If I end up buring in hell for all eternity I will still have existence, obviously, but since God didn't give me eternal life then I am some how sustaining my life without Him, so why do I need Him at all?

I believe the Bible does fit together perfectly, otherwise I wouldnt have any confidence in it.. Our bodies came from the dust and thats where they will return, not our souls! Animals will return to dust also..  but i dont believe animals have souls.. so in that case as far as flesh and blood go they will all return to dust.. no question, no confusion. As far as our souls.. they are Gods to do with. I believe animals and people are not equal..  I believe the animals are here for us and thats what God intended. God even states that we are much more higher than the animals... The gift of God IS eternal life..IF.. we choose to accept it! That is, the free gift of eternal life with him. I believe that God is in control of all things.. even your punishment! It will be by his power that souls are sustained for eternity in punishment. We all need God wether we want to admit it or not! He holds the cosmos together with his power, and Im sure he can sustain us in whatever state we are in.

[chim]

Now read verse 10 very carefully and you will see that the DEVIL, the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are thown into the lake of fire and  they will be tormented (the wicked people were already devoured in verse 9).

I don't believe that this is the case, but in a literal reading I still don't see how the wicked people are not caput.

Dont stop reading at verse 10!!! Keep going to the end of the chapter... you are stopping at the Devil..  but it goes on to say what happens to non-believers.. 

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 

That is pretty stinkin clear to me!

Do God's laws ever change?  No.  Does this included the physical laws of nature?  Yes.  What happens carbon based things that are placed into a fire?  They burn up.  If Nature is God's 2nd book, why would He teach things in the Bible that are contrary to nature?  There are only two examples in the Bible of things surviving in a fire, the burning bush and the three Hebrews, both were a direct result of God, He was even seen in the fire with the three Hebrews.  The logical conclusion is that for us to survive a fire God would have to give us the strength, and if it was an eternal fire then He would have to give us eternal life...hmmm.


You are assuming that the laws of nature have to continue into eternity? Thats a horrible mistake...  Nature says I cant just receive a new body, nature says I cant live forever, nature says I need nourishment to live, nature says I have pain, nature says this and that.. etc.. . Thats a horrible point! Where is Nature Gods 2nd book?? I think you are making a huge assumption here! If laws of nature are strong in postion in your eternity, I wouldnt want to go there! You say "Both were a direct result of God", wow! isnt that what eternity is going to be .. a direct result of God and his power!!! The logical conclusion is that for us to survive a fire God would have to give us the strength, and if it was an eternal fire then He would have to give us eternal life...hmmm. I agree! We can have eternal life with him.. or spend eternity in punishment! The sould continues... if the non-believers just vanish.. whats the big deal in that.. they would never be conscious to know what they are missing out on..  then Christ wouldnt have to teach so much and warn us about hell, he could just say, believe and life eternally with me, or dont and cease to exist! That sounds retarded..  and he didnt teach that. Logically think that through!

[chim]

Ok, I'm realllly late in catchin up on this thread.  I don't agree with that sentence.  That Non Believers will go to Hell.  Yeah the Bible states something to that effect, but also, what about the people that don't know? What about the people in African jungles that live and die with no other knowledge other than a Witch Doctor? I believe that our Saviour is a merciful one.  I believe that he is not going to judge by whether or not you believe in him, he's gonna consider the fact that some people never had the chance, and he's gonna judge by how they lived their lives. If a person is doing what they wholeheartedly believe is right, then by all means, the Big Man upstairs ain't gonna send em to hell for it.

I believe that God manifests himself to everyone everywhere in one form or another..  and I also think that God is a just God and that he will judge accordingly. I also believe the Lord when he says, no man comes to the father but by me.. being Jesus Christ.. some things e just cant answer. But im not the resident theologan, so I dont know everything.

[*FFC*]

and I also think that God is a just God and that he will judge accordingly

AMEN that says it right there

[brainlessfool]

The one thing I want to know is, is he a Republican or a democrat?

[chim]

Im would bet on Independant!

[*FFC*]

    

[supermat]

Hey FFC,
  I must disagree with you... It is my firm belief that everyone is held accountable, PERIOD. There is a term called, "natural Inspiration" and the basic concept is that anyone can stand in nature whether it be in Livermore or Africa or on the Rubicon and say, " I couldn't create this, you couldn't create this, a higher power must have." The concept that anyone is capable of that mental connection is what makes you accountable. You know its bigger than you, its your responsibility to find out what IT is and the responsibiliity of believers to seek you out and show you. I believe my God is just and at times merciful but I have no ground to stand on if I think I can dictate what is "right" or "Just" for Him. Using a term like that is trying to pin an almighty spiritual being into a human shell and saying that he can't step aside from that, or that he must follow the same guidelines as us.
I submitted to God not out of fear, though he should be feared, but instead out of respect for an almighty being who was crazy enough to let his son die for pathetic-lazy me. If He was willing to go that far for me, I have no right, no moral grounds, and no reason, to do anything other than drop to my knee and dedicate my life to whatever it is he asks. In ancient times when a man saved your life you were his servant, this was a matter of respect and a symbol of  your gratitude for a debt you could not repay. God did not save my life metaphorically, he literally saved me and out of respect for that I am a literal servant by choice. I can never repay the debt but I can honor, obey, and follow as a symbolic thanks for the gift of life I recieved.

Hope all of that makes sense!

Matt

[chim]

Good Matt,

I agree with you.. although its hard to grasp..  I believe his word.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[MiniSimp]

Just to piss in everyone's cheerios, I beleive Jesus is a character in one of the best selling fiction books of all time.

[chim]

Just to piss in everyone's cheerios, I beleive Jesus is a character in one of the best selling fiction books of all time. 

Thats ok.. your not alone in your ignorance

[MiniSimp]

Thats ok.. your not alone in your ignorance

Thanks, that's good to know.