Topic: How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[BLACKDOG]

Synwars mentioned this real quick, and I'd lke to add that I think it is really cool that we can discuss this topic, and have been doing so for 4 almost 5 pages, and it looks as if it'll continue for a while, without gettin all pissed of and angry with each other.  I am learnign a lot, some things that I completely disagree with, and some things that I dont, and I am sure others can say the same, but I think its cool that a sensitive subect is discussable on this forum w/o getting pissed, like on other forums

[mr4x42u]

I will admit I get pissed when the the president of the u.s says he talked to god and that the war on iraq was the right thing to do..its people like that in my opinion that give religion a bad name..Religion is the sole reasonfor the death of so many people in this world,,how can it be good and its too bad..

[gonzo]

I will admit I get pissed when the the president of the u.s says he talked to god and that the war on iraq was the right thing to do..its people like that in my opinion that give religion a bad name..Religion is the sole reasonfor the death of so many people in this world,,how can it be good and its too bad..

I am sure that Sadam told the people in Iraq that God told him things also.

[88runner]

I will admit I get pissed when the the president of the u.s says he talked to god and that the war on iraq was the right thing to do..its people like that in my opinion that give religion a bad name..Religion is the sole reasonfor the death of so many people in this world,,how can it be good and its too bad..

Did you know that the United-States are one of the only country that beleive they have to put religious beleif in the politics, other countrys being the extremist religious people.

IMO religion and politic must be separate things or you get those weird things "the president of the u.s says he talked to god and that the war on iraq was the right thing to do"     

[germ]

I want to thank everyone for their considered responses, and not getting excited and upset as well. This has been a great learing experience for me as well, as while it maybe easy to hold my beliefs, it is not always easy to explain why, and where it came from. I am always interested in hearing others thoughts and beliefs, because I feel that it helps me to clarify my beliefs and I can always learn from others. Please, let us continue to explore this subject in a courteous way so that we can all learn and hopefully grow. to all who are participating and lurking!

I have been neglecting my work to participate in this thread, so for the next couple of hours I'll be charting. I'll be back in a bit to see what is new.

Erik

[germ]

Mr4x42u-

Your points are well taken. I fully understand your frustration with the events in the world, and how horribly some people are treated. I do think however that this is man who is doing this (under the influence of Satan), and not God. We are given free will, and man is very easily led into sin. God (as i understand it) does not wish to micro-manage us and allows us to, in a sense, sink or swim.

In the end, God will pass judgment on all of us. Those who uphold the principles of the Bible will be judged favorably, and those who don't will be judged harshly.

I wish I could address this with more specifics, but unfortunatly I can't. Maybe someone else has salient points to bring up. I believe that God has his reasons for allowing this to occur, but I just don't have the understanding of them to be able to explain it.

Erik

[blackdiamond [OP]]

This thread is simply amazing, after a couple of hours the questions pile up to the point of confusion.  I won't be able to address everything, but I will try to catch a few key points.

I realize that quoting a pastor implies that I can't defend my own faith (I wish I was better at it), but I think that I have provided enough information to be respected.  With that in mine I contact my new pastor and asked him if he could sumarize the topics a bit since he has more experience answering these type of questions.  Here is what he sent me, keep in mind that it sounds more judgemental than he really is (it was written to me), he is a great young pastor that loves 4wheeling

"There is a lot of stuff that goes into the Sabbath issues... (you know that) but for the Salvational part, it really boils down to that fact of two things...

1. If the Sabbath message has been presented to you and you reject it. That is Rejecting the God of the Sabbath. Saying it doesn't matter what day you worship on is Laodicea, riding the fence and not standing on the True Biblical Principles of worship and following God! But if you have never heard of the Sabbath, you are not a Christian, and you do not profess to be a follower of Christ, and you come to know him but not all the Bible "Gems" you are not accountable for everything that has been revealed throughout all History! If people are REAL BIBLE students, they would study the Bible and find out how all texts fit together, not throw out the ones they don't understand or make them feel uncomfortable!

Some people really believe that the Bible teaches Sunday worship, it has become part of the culture, so some of this will have to play out in time...

2. THe second issues come with If you believe in GOd and you are following God, you cannot live by 9 of the ten commandments. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. they can justify all they want and make excuses and all, but if they really look at it, the Bible never changed the day of worship, the Ten Commandments Still are valid today, and if they argue that keeping Sabbath is Legalism, then tell them to let you come and committ the last 6 commands on them and see how they feel about you stealing from them or committing adultry with their wife, etc... The truth is that most Christians are just following the crowd, and don't really have a true understanding of the Bible for themselves... they may be offended if you take this hard line with them, but that is the truth... ALL PEOPLE who really STUDY the bible and know history, know that Saturday is the REAL Lord's DAY!!! The Real SABBATH, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

The Texts, I have tons in a book i have not unburied yet (from his recent move), but there is a website with all the Sabbath Arguments and stuff you could imagine...
www.sabbathtruth.com

Check that out and see what you think!!! I believe it is put out by Amazing Facts...
Hope any of this helps, and I will be praying for you as you continue these discussions."

Now I will go back and try to answer/comment on some of the more specific things posted.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I have to agree with supermat though, isn't the blood of Chirst coverage for our sins? Even if we sin, we are fogiven, by His grace. Even if we sin knowingly, we are still forgiven, because although w eare to strive to be like Christ, we have a sin nature, and we will fall from time to time.

Another question for everyone. Do you beleive that you can lose your salvation?

The blood of Christ is absolutely enough to cover our sins.  The problem is that believing is God and following God are two different things.  I believe that if we accept Christ as our savior AND follow Christ's example and commands we have salvation; however, salvation isn't a "once saved always saved" concept.  For example, the majority of people in the world believe that it is wrong to murder another person.  Would you expect to saved if knowing and understanding that murdering was wrong you willfully chose to murder (directly breaking the commandment)?  Is one commandment more important than any other? Christ's blood can't be claimed by a willful sinner because their actions show that they do not believe in God enough to follow him.  If a person is actively working with God to stop a particular sin Christ's blood will cover them because they are not actively choosing to break God's law.  Does this make any sense?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

hang on

ok got it. 

As far as I am concerned, I still believe that I can worship God on any day of the week (yes we shoud worship him everyday) for example, My career choice is firefighter.  I am not one yet, but when I become one, I will have to work on Sat. and Sun.  should I not worship, and set aside time for God on one of my days off?  and make that my "sabbath"  so that I can fulfill my duty, and privlege in honoring my God??  But I will tell you one thing, if it cmes down to it, and it is made illegal to worship on Saturday, you'll find that I will start worshipping on Sat.  Out of respect for SDA beleifs? probably not.  Out of protest that I've been told I cant do something for no good reason? most likely.  So, does that still condemn me? that I would wait until that time?  Ifc that soundsw disrespectful its not intended to.

BD,  The problem with this is that you would be doing the right thing for the wrong reason.  We are saved by Grace along, but faith without works is dead.  It is possible to do the "right" things, but if we are not doing them for, or because of our relationship with, God it doesn't matter.  Take the Pharasies (Spell?) in the Bible for example, they took great pride in their works, but Jesus refered to them as vipers.  They were following the currently understood right things, but for the wrong reason.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/

I just looked at this website and it has tons of good information including audio and tons of Biblical references.

[notajeep]

so....
Worship on sunday=murder?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

so....
Worship on sunday=murder?

Not exactly, just suggesting that keeping the 4th commandment in full detail should be as important as any of the other 9.  They can all keep us from salvation.

As a side note question, how do each of you keep your Sabbath (day of choice)?  What do you do or not do on that day?

[germ]

I have a DVD about ways to keep the Sabbath. I'll watch it again tonight and take notes to post up tomorrow. Personally, I ususally just putter around the house with my family. We often will try to take a hike or go out on the canoe. Sometimes we'll go 4wheeling. Just kinda depends on how everyone is doing.

Erik 

[synwars]

mr4x42u:

Judging from your response mr4x4, you no doubt are asking the question of "Where is this world heading?" Everyday we see threats to our personal security, the environment is deteriorating every year at an alarming rate, millions of people across the world go to bed hungry, there never seems to be even a short period of time without a war going on somewhere, and if that doesn't kill you.... maybe one of the thousands of diseases that are out there will eventually get you. Behind that huge world scene the Churches are backing political wars and genocides all the while covering up the actions and consequences of priests sexually exploiting children. Indeed where is this world heading? This begs the question, "Does God really care? If he really exists, why hasn't he done something to bring us relief?"

The truth is, God does care. He provides guidance and genuine relief right now as stated above in my earlier post at 2 Timothy 3:16,17, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." By believing this we can then seek Jesus Christ who invites, "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.” (Matthew 11:28) God has already laid the basis for doing away with all of the above mentioned troubles we see on this earth. So whats the hold up? Why isn't he acting now? Well let's not point the finger at God wondering if he cares, because there are three fingers pointing back at you asking how much do YOU care to find out? Do you know who the Creator is? Do you know his name? Do you know his purpose? The answers are in the Bible, there it explains what steps he has taken and are going to take to right the wrong. In order to benefit, what is required on our part? How can we expect to benefit from this unless we show faith in him? John 3:16 says, "“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." And also at Hebrews 11:6, "Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please him well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." Does that mean we have to follow some heavy rules? 1 John 5:3 says, "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome." Do YOU care enough to do that?

If you do... In order to find out why God permits these world conditions to carry on, we must understand a vital issue, the issue of "Universal Sovreignty" aka "supremecy of authority" or who has the right to rule the earth and those on it?

If you would like to know more, let me know. I'd hate talking to walls...

[gotrocks]

As a side note question, how do each of you keep your Sabbath (day of choice)? What do you do or not do on that day?

well I go to church most of the time and then have lunch with friends usually at someones house, then we usually get a group of people together and go to the park to play football, volleyball, or something fun with a bunch of people, sometimes we get a few people together from church and go 4wheeling (mostly trail rides nothing to exciteing around here).  In the winter sometimes we'll get people together and go snowmobiling and have church up in the mountains (like 4 to 6 people).

What makes Sabbath different to me then for most people that go to church on Sunday is that I don't go and do things I'd normally just do during the week.  For me Sabbath and Sunday is not the same.  On Sabbath I don't go out and go shopping, ie. to the mall, movies etc.  It is different in that I spend time with fellow believers.  Jesus did that on Sabbath.  He would go to the synogogue then go out and be with his friends.  He would help people (just like Doctors, nurses, firefighters, policeman etc.) do.  He didn't condemn helping others on the Sabbath, but he didn't want us to go do things we do every day of the week.

[toybuilt]

Man I never go to church any more, just kinda stop going a few years ago

[blackdiamond [OP]]

A normal Sabbath for me begins at sundown on Friday night.  It is amazing how good I feel after a long week knowing that I can put everything aside for 24 hours and relax is God's love.  Most weeks I attend church, I am starting to attend Sabbath School (similar to Sunday school) on a more regular basis and my wife and I are helping/teaching in the youth groups.  After church we normally gather somewhere for a meal (sometimes at the church) and enjoy each others company.  For Adventists, Saturday night is the "fun" night where popcorn, soda and numerous forms of entertainment.  On weeks that I don't attend church, I will sometimes simply sleep in and enjoy the rest God has provided or head to the mountains to spend time in nature (God's second book).  If I go 4wheeling I try to keep it to easy to moderate so that my attention can be on God and nature rather than the truck and trail.

You would be amazed how awesome it is to know that each week there is an end in sight and you have one day to relax.  I watch people at work go weeks and sometimes months without a break and they become tired and bitter people, money can't make you happy.

As for working on the Sabbath, I am torn in the area a bit and have not completely determine what I think is right for me, but I know that it will be a rare day at my job that I would even consider going to work.

As for Blackdog being a firefighter, I would say that is acceptable, but if it were me I would spent the portion of my day between alarms with God (reading, music, praying and simply resting) rather than shooting hoops with they guys like every other day.  A group from my church just spent several months trying to determine was thing were OK to do on the Sabbath and we determine that it is 90% based upon your personal relationship with God, He has to convict you about what is right and wrong.  There are some general guidlines, but not everyone will apply them the same, this is were we need to be careful not to judge the decisions that other make, it is not my job to judge the motivation of others.  In general, health care positions are looked at as OK in the SDA church, but I would have a problem if someone purposely scheduled their shifts on Sabbath to free up the regular week, I think that it should always be avoided or minimized when possible, but that is not always an option.

[BLACKDOG]

I need to read more into my Bible, and find some more stuff. this thread is making it painfully obvious that I dont know what Ineed to know to defend my faith.  For one, I still beleive thatthe day of the sabbath is not important, as long as proper reverence and worship is shown.  I also believe that once saved always saved.  There are verses that back this up, and one of them is   along the lines of "not through works, but by grace you have been saved." If someone could help me out withthe refernece it'd be much appreciated.  There are more, butthat one states thatuitis Grace, from the Lamb of God thatsaves you, and nothing else.     Your deeds are pointless, whether good or bad, if you have been saved, you will go to heaven.  If youwork tofurther God's kindgdom, you will be rewarded, if you dont, you will not. 

I want todiscuss some other things, but I am tired, and y keyboard sucks, so I will continue tommorow  

[Diggertoy]

interesting.......The christian Sabbath day was originally Saturday, as Sunday was originally the Start of the week. But the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday in  321 AD for what reason, God only knows. amazingly enough , but the Catholic Church has some strange things about it anyway, that contradict what the Bible says is rightgeous. First of All We;re not to worship idols and worship money.......here is where the Catholic church does both.( the Catholic Church is one of the Richest entities in the world, and every church have Saints Statues , etc. that are worshiped. another is the above mentioned , changing of the Sabbath Day in 321 AD, what gives them the right to do this .......this is changing Gods rule ......here is whats said about this :

God said:

"And hallow My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God." —Ezekiel 20:20.

After the New Testament was finished and the Apostles had died, men tried transfer the sacredness from the seventh to the first day of the week. They tried to change the "time law."

Roman Catholic: "It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church."—Priest Brady, in an address at Elizabeth, N.J., March 17, 1903, reported in the Elizabeth, N.J. News of March 18, 1903.

"You may search the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saterday, a day which we never sanctify."—James Cardinal Gibbon, The Faith of Our Fathers, chapter 8.

"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter of February 10, 1920.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."—Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894; The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

"Prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says, No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church."—Priest Thomas Enright, CSSR, President of Redemptorist College, Kansas City, MO, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas Weekly Call, February 22, 1884, and the American Sentinel, a New York Roman Catholic journal, in June 1893, p. 173.

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act . . AND THE ACT IS A MARK of her ecclesiastical power."—From the office of cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor H. F. Thomas, November 11, 1895.

Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council, given about 16 years after Constantine’s first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: ‘sabbato’—shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall by shut out [‘anathema,’ excommunicated] from Christ."—Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C. J. Hefele, A History of the Councils of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 316.

"The keeping of the Sunday rest arose from the custom of the people and the constitution of the [Catholic] Church . . Tertullian was probably the first to refer to a cessation of affairs on the Sun day; the Council of Laodicea issued the first counciliar legislation for that day; Constantine I issued the first civil legislation."—Priest Vincent J. Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations, p. 203 [a thesis presented to the Catholic University of America].

"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day."—James T. Ringgold, The Law of Sunday, p. 267.

In the later centuries, persecution against believers in the Bible Sabbath intensified until very few were left alive. When the Reformation began, the true Sabbath was almost unknown.

"Now the [Catholic] Church . . instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. The same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory . . We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."—Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked about, 1927, p. 236.

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [of the Sabbath to Sunday] was her act . . AND THE ACT IS A MARK of her ecclesiastical power."—From the office of Cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor H. F. Thomas, November 11, 1895

[Diggertoy]

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.

Notice how God rested, blessed and sanctified one day: "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which he had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Genesis 2:2,3

Jesus taught us to keep the entire Law

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Do not think that I come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:16-19.

"Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the Prophets." Matt. 22:37-40.

By loving Jesus with all our heart we can obey the first table of the law which deals with obeying God; then we can keep the second table of the law, which deals with loving our fellow man.

Jesus and His disciples kept the law before and after the resurrection

"So He came to Nazareth where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read." Luke 4:16.    Jesus kept the seventh-day Sabbath 1700 times.

"And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath." Matt. 24:20. The destruction of Jerusalem spoken of here, took place 39 years after His death.

Jesus, while in the tomb, "Rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56.

"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures." Acts 17:2.

"So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42,44. Long after Christ’s resurrection, His apostles were meeting on the seventh-day Sabbath.

Baptism commemorates the resurrection of Christ, not Sunday worship

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him…." Romans 6:3-6

[Diggertoy]

In heaven and the new earth we will worship on the Sabbath

"'For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me.' says the Lord, 'So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,' says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22,23

The "Lord’s Day" is clearly defined in the Bible as the seventh day

"The Son of man is also Lord of the Sabbath." Mark 2:28. "...The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God...." Exodus 20:8-11. "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Matthew 12:8. The Lord calls it "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13.  Thus "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day...." Revelation 1:10, must refer only to the seventh-day Sabbath.

The ceremonial law, which looked forward to Christ, included temporary sabbaths and was nailed to the cross 

"Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross....So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." Colossians 2:14,16,17. The "handwriting" pertains to Moses writing the ceremonial law, such as the Day of Atonement sabbath, Passover, etc. It was "against us" is explained in Deut. 31:26 where the "Book of the law" written by Moses is "against you." The ceremonial law written on animal skin was "nailed to the cross" or ended at that time, but not the Ten Commandments, they were written by our Creator on stone for eternity. "The shadow of things to come" means it is temporary and points forward to Christ’s sacrifice when it would end.  We no longer observe the Day of Atonement or Passover sabbaths because the sacrificial system ended at the cross.  In Matt. 24 Jesus spoke of the Ten Commandment Sabbath in His prophecy of the destruction of Israel which took place 40 years after His death.  So the true Ten Commandment Sabbath was verified by Jesus to still be in effect long after His death. 

Some say we are under the New Covenant and therefore we have no responsibility towards obeying the Ten Commandments

(1) The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals (Exodus 24:5-8 and Hebrews 9:19,20) and based upon the promises of the people that they would keep God's law. (2) The new covenant is based upon God's promise to write His law in our hearts, which was ratified with the blood of Christ. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My law into their minds, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." Hebrews 8:10. See also Jeremiah 31:33,34. The central figure of the entire tabernacle service was the golden Ark of the Covenant over which the glory of God dwelt, and inside contained the Ten Commandments. Jesus is our high priest in heaven, ministering over the original Ark of the Covenant, with the Ten Commandments inside.

The Sabbath commandment contains the seal of God

A seal contains a name, title and territory, such as Ronald Reagan, President of the United States. God’s seal from the fourth commandment has His name "Lord," His title is Creator since he created His territory "heaven and earth." In Romans 4:11, it tells us that a seal is a sign. Ezekiel 20:12,20 says the Sabbath is a sign or a seal between God and man. Revelation 7:2,3 speaks of the seal of the living God and those who, at the end of time, are sealed in their foreheads. Revelation 14:6-12 gives us warnings from three angels for the last people on earth: Verse 6 speaks of a "judgment," which entails the Law of God, and calls us to worship the Creator, as it does in the fourth commandment; Verse 8 "Babylon" or fallen churches which contain error, have rejected some of the Law of God; Verse 9 Those who worship the beast through partial obedience to God, receive a mark, as opposed to the seal of God.

There are eight texts in the New Testament which mention the first day of the week. None contain a change of the Sabbath.  Here are the sun-day texts

These five texts mention the women coming to the sepulcher early on resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose from the dead: Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:1,2; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; but no mention of a Sabbath change.

"Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her. Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, 'Peace be with you.’" John 20:18,19. The disciples met out of fear of persecution, not to worship. No change of the Sabbath is mentioned.

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." Acts 20:7,8. The New English Bible indicates a Saturday night meeting. A Sabbath meeting went into Saturday night which is the beginning of the first day of the week. The breaking of bread, or eating, could take place any day (see Acts 2:46).

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come." I Cor. 16:1,2. The original Vulgate refers to a gift for the poor at one’s "own house," not at a church.  This was not a church gathering, but a directive to church members on the first work day of the week to set aside a donation. 

No time has been lost. The seventh day of our week is the same seventh day that Adam, Moses and Christ observed

The Jews have kept the seventh-day Sabbath on Saturday for 4,000 years.

From the book Your Amazing Calendar it states, "The week of seven days has been in use ever since the days of Moses, and we have no reason for supposing that any irregularities have existed in the succession of the weeks and their days from that time to the present."

In over 100 languages from around the world, the name for the seventh day which we call Saturday, means Sabbath or rest.

Jesus was killed on Good Friday, rested over the Sabbath in the tomb on the seventh day of the week, or Saturday, and arose from the grave on the first day of the week and went back to work. Luke 24:1, Mark 16:9

In 321 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine passed the first Sunday law forcing all men, pagans and Christians, to worship on Sunday. Pagan Rome then changed to Papal Rome which embraced the same idea of Sunday worship

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine states: "Q. Which is the Sabbath day? A. Saturday is the Sabbath day. Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." "Sunday is our mark of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of sabbath observance is proof of that fact." The Catholic Record, London Ontario, Sept. 1, 1923.

If we sincerely keep the Sabbath holy, we will receive blessings from the Lord

"If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your own pleasure on My Holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken." Isaiah 58:13,14

God’s last church on earth is identified as keeping God’s commandments and having the testimony of Jesus

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.

"And the dragon [Satan] was wroth [angry] with the woman [God's church], and went to make war with the remnant [final part] of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17

"Moreover I also gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. Hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God." Ezekiel 20:12,20. Read Exodus 31:12-17.

Friend, won't you choose to follow the Bible Sabbath which begins at sundown Friday and ends at sundown Saturday?  This is God's only Holy day of rest.  It is a time to commune with God, separate ourselves from our worldly work, focus instead on His creation and many wonders, turn off the TV, avoid the stores, spend time with family, and study His word. 

Standing for the truth at the end of time will involve persecution as "the whole world wondered after the beast" Rev. 13:3.   The vast, vast majority will not be saved and will focus their attention on those not obeying the civil government's call for a national Sunday law.  Those who are obeying ALL the Ten Commandments will be out of step with civil governments.  It will not be possible to stand on your own without the Holy Spirit within you providing the strength necessary to obey.  We can choose the popular path, or a peculiar one which leads to eternal life.  It's our choice.  One which every person on earth will soon make during the period of the Mark of the Beast and Time of Trouble.  There will be no secret rapture.   We will all go through this time of turmoil, increased natural disasters, increased terrorism, faltering economy, and a call from the citizens of the USA for a national day of rest, Sunday, to bring the country back to God.  The penalty for violating this law will gradually increase.  Satan will personate Christ and confuse the world.  He will say the Ten Commandments have changed, and Sunday is the true sabbath.  But we know that the Ten Commandments will never change.

[UNBREAKABLE]

I will admit I get pissed when the the president of the u.s says he talked to god and that the war on iraq was the right thing to do..its people like that in my opinion that give religion a bad name..Religion is the sole reasonfor the death of so many people in this world,,how can it be good and its too bad..

I'll stand up and agree to that. What ever happened to "seperation of church and state" ?
Religion has caused more deaths than anything else ever!

[blackdiamond [OP]]

That is good stuff Diggertoy, I'm not sure I have anything to really add after reading that.  There is one thing that I am still looking for to post, but I don't have the facts in hand quite yet.  I must have missed, or forgotten, you posting up as an SDA, but from your posts that would be my conclusion.

  

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I'll stand up and agree to that. What ever happened to "seperation of church and state" ?
Religion has caused more deaths than anything else ever!

In my opinion, it makes sense that the Devil would want Church and State to be separate because it makes this stuff more difficult to believe.  The fact is there is already Blue Laws or National Sunday Laws on the books in some states, they are just not enforeced.  As for being separated, have you noticed that the government is really attempting to control religion (especially Christian).  It is ok to print, "I God we trust," on our money, but we can't pray in schools?  I don't necessarily think that the teachers need to pray in class, but the students shouldn't get into trouble for prayer groups.

You are correct that many people have been killed in the name of religion, but have you ever seen anyting in the Bible directing people to kill?  It is a good cover and a great way for the devil to fight agaist God.

[gotrocks]

I'll stand up and agree to that. What ever happened to "seperation of church and state" ?
Religion has caused more deaths than anything else ever!

first I was wondering when I read that earlier when the president said that I'd like like to see a news webpage that backs that up.  I'm not trying to call anyone a lier or anything I'm just suprised that President Bush would've said that.  I know he is a Christian and is open about it but if he said that in those words I'm suprised.  Any how on that being a "seperation of Church and State" it doesn't cross the line of going into church and state.  The way I understand it was if the State Made a law that required you to do something agianst your freewill.  Thats the whole reason that the Pilgrams left England.  They were not able to worship to how they saw fit.  They wanted to believe and worship at their own free will not what a government told them they could or couldn't do.  Our country was built on morals from Christianity.  They weren't making a church that was like the "Church of the America" like England did by making the Church of England.  Look on our currancy.  It says in God We Trust.  But they are not trying to tell you that you are wrong in not believing if you don't. 

Anyone else wanna help explain this a little better.

[Diggertoy]

I'm not an SDA, Blackdiamond......I'm Christian, although Baptised Methodist, by my uncle whos is a retired Methodist Bishop for North Carolina. The stuff I posted above, came form a book called "The National Sunday Law" ........that I had read while in San Quentin. I believe some of what it says , but not all . For me you have to take that book with a grain of salt, and trust in the Lord, pray about it & know that as Long as you believe that Jesus Christ is your personal Savior, you'll be with God in Heaven for etenity !!! I'm also a member of a 12 step group,( 7/5/1996 ) that believes in a Higherpower, one of your own understanding, not necessarity traditonal ones although ofcourse their in there as well.......it's of Your Own Understanding !

I read your stuff and summised that you must be a SDA, and thought you'd appreciate the above
material.

Lastly and as stated in the 1st paragragh........it's all about Grace ; he loves us unconditonally, and if we accept his love into our hearts and him as our personal savior,................ thats it  !!! were guranteed a place in Heaven !!! and it's not about deeds, being good or anything ........again it;s all about GRACE  !!!

' In Jesus Name

[mr4x42u]

just for those of you who quote bible scriptures,,I thnk its really point less,,,Why you ask,,For there are many scriptures that arenot 100% correct,,how can that be you ask,,,well the bible is not really sure if its coming or going..

Can you see god???  every one I talk to says no,,I feel if he is real then he will show himself,,however
in   judges 1:19  "I have seen god face to face,and my life is preserved"

Yet in genesis 32:30 it says  "No man hath seen god at any time"    HUH,,how can that be??

Revenge,,we all have wanted it at one point or another,,so how  does the bible feel about it?
exodus 21:23-25 thou shalt give life for life,,eye for eye,,tooth for tooth,,hand for hand,,foot for foot,,burning for burning,,wound for wound,,stripe for stripe..

WAIT,,  matthew 5:39 says   "ye resist evil,but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek,,turn to him the other also".
Aint that a pregnant dog,,just when you thought you were going to get revenge..

so when your dead your dead right??wrong..
job 7:9  "he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more"..
NOT,,  John 5:28-29  "the hour is coming,in wich all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,and shall come fourth"..
Ok that was a trick question,,so what is it,,will or will I not come up from the grave,,the bible has no clue..

This one I found interesting,,the bible on incest,,so right or wrong to marry your family member??

deuteronomy 27:22  "cursed be he that lieth with his sister,,the daughter of his father,or the daughter of this mother"..
leviticus  20:17 "and if a man shall take his sister,his fathers daughter,or mothers daughter,,,it is a wicked thing..
But if your on gods good side he will make up the ruls as he goes..what was gods reaction to abraham who married his sister,,his fathers daughter??
genesis 17:15-16  "And god said unto abraham,,as for sara thy wife..I bless her and give thee a son also of her"


I think its pretty sad to see so many mistakes in a book thats supposed to be so perfect,,,and its no wonder so many that follow the faith molest kids,,and murder there familys while hiding behind this book and god...SAD Just plain sad..

[germ]

Diggertoy: I think you have posted up just about every pertinent text from the Bible that addresses the Sabbath. Thank you!

I just wanted to touch on a few points about the Sabbath, which I think are important. Keeping the Sabbath is not a leagalistic thing. God gave us this day for 2 main reasons. 1) Rest (which is fairly self explanatory) 2) Relationships. God wants us to strengthen our relationships, and he has provided this day to ensure that we are able to do this. It is not just about our relationship with Him, but also with others. Marriages are failing left and right. Children are turning away from their parents. The only way to mainatin and develop a good relationship is by spening time with people. God gave us this day so that we may put aside all our chores for one day, and focus on the relationships that we have with our family and friends. This will provide us with fulfillment, because our relationships will be stronger and more secure. We will have the joy of knowing that we are secure in them. This allows us to put forth greater effort on the 6 days that we work, because we are not worried about our relationship with others.

The Sabbath is not to be a burden, but is meant to be a day to look forward to. It is a blessing, and make it a day that is enjoyable.

The few "rules" about the Sabbath are really simple. We should not engage in commerce (buying or selling) on the Sabbath, because that is "work". If you run out of something that is vitaly important (Baby food, diapers, etc, it is not a big deal, but we should try and avoid these situations).  We should try to prepare as much as possible on Friday so that we do not have to work on the Sabbath. In Exodus, God would give enough manna  for each day, except Friday, when he would provide double, so that the Israelites could prepare for the Sabbath. There is not really much more to it.

So what are the practical ways we can keep the Sabbath?
-Go to church "It was Jesus's custom to go to the Synagogue on the Sabbath" Luke 4:16
-Try to focus on the goodness of God, and all the blessings you have recieved.
-Take time to read the scriptures, and other texts that lead us to Him.
-Fellowship with family, church and friends.
-Service: Feed the poor, visit the sick, Help the needy (Remember it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath)
-Nature: As mentioned before, Nature is Gods "other" book. Go for a hike, go wheeling, get out and see the natural beauty that God has created for us to enjoy.

I hope this helps clarify what "keeping the Sabbath Holy" means. It is not a leagalistic thing, and it is not meant to be a burden. It is really meant to be a blessing for us so that we can rest and focus on the good in our lives.

Erik

[blackdiamond [OP]]

mr4x42U,

You raise some interesting questions and I will try to address them tonight or tomorrow night depending on time.  One thing to keep in mind is that the Bible was originally written in Greek and Hebrew (this is why preacher, ministers and priests often take classes to learn these languages) and there is not always a perfect translation in English.  For example, there are several different meanings for the word "love" in the Bible that you have to know the Greek or Hebrew to distinguish.  I'm not saying that this explains all of your questions, but it is something to keep in mind.  Also, context makes a huge difference in some cases.

I know that there is one text in the Bible that has a grammer error, this is because the original text (Greek or Hebrew) didn't contain punctuation and it was added later.  It is one of those cases where it reads fine both ways, but if you move the comma slightly it completely changes the meaning.  I will try to located the specific text, it is fairly well known.

[germ]

I think its pretty sad to see so many mistakes in a book thats supposed to be so perfect,,,and its no wonder so many that follow the faith molest kids,,and murder there familys while hiding behind this book and god...SAD Just plain sad..

One problem I see with this, is that you are comparing portions of the Old Testiment with portions of the New Testiment. God had rules and requirements of the people who inhabited the earth before Jesus's arrival (Making sacrafices is one example) which changed once Jesus came.

Unfortunatly, I am at work, and do not have my Bible with me to look up the refrences you make so that I can expand on them.

I did want to address a point you had brought up earlier, and forgive me, I can't quote it right now, but you had mentioned that How could God allow little children to suffer.

To find the answer, you have to go waaaayyyy back to when Lucifer was still in Heaven. The reason he was thrown out of Heaven was that he started to tell the other Angels that God would not allow them free choice, and that He was dictating their existance. When God cast Lucifer and his followers out, he promised that he would allow people thier free will, and would not intervene, so that when he came back to re-establish his perfect heaven, no one who was in heaven would ever be able say that they did not have the opportunity to choose to be there.

What we are seeing is that man is excercising his free will, and many are choosing not to follow Gods word.

Remember, Salvation is a choice. You can choose to do what is needed to be saved, or you can choose not to. The only thing I ask you (and others...I'm not pointing this at you specifically) is to think about the consequences of your choice. Just like when we're wheeling, sometimes if you choose to turn right, you'll go into a beautiful meadow, but if you choose to turn left, you'll fall off a cliff. It's your choice, and my belief is that God specifically made it that way. I do not judge your (or anyone elses) choice (I'ts not my place). I may not agree with it, just as you may not agree with my choice, but it's all good.

Erik