Topic: How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[blackdiamond]

You make several key points.  There isn't much need to argue about anything that isn't a salvation issue and support/accountability are extremely important.  The devil is a sneaky dude.

I will see what I can put together on the Sabbath that isn't books long.  One of the CDs that I planning to send BD is specifically on the Sabbath so maybe he can pass it along to you when he is finished or I can probably get you a copy as well.

I understand that the reason that Catholics worship on Sunday is because the church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, they are very open about it.  Where I get confused is why mainstream Christians choose to follow the Sabbath teaching of the Catholic church, but often are adamantly opposed to the rest of their teachings.  It doesn't make sense to me to relax the Sabbath Commandment when nobody (other than the Catholics as shown above) seems to want to mess with the rest of them.  Why is the 4th Commandment any less important than the rest?  In my opinion, it seems to be the most direct and specific of the ten.

I believe that we are accountable for the knowledge that we have.  For example, someone living on a isolated island that never read a Bible wouldn't be held accountable for things that he didn't know, but we are responsible for the things that we know AND the things that we had the opportunity to learn and didn't.  Personally, I am convicted on how important the Sabbath (Biblical or not Biblical) is so it is a salvation issue for me; however, for someone that doesn't understand and isn't convicted it isn't a salvation issue at this point...I believe that it will be in the future.  Make any sense?

[germ]

I'm very curious about some of the SDA's beliefs, specifically the Saturday worship.
 I never realized how strictly this rule was enforced on your end.
At least that is what I thought because now I'm discovering that in your teaching Saturday worship is a salvation issue. What grounds are you taking that stand on?

Without over-simplifying it too much, it's the fourth comandment. It is quoted here.

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.  On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, or your animals, nor the alien within your gates.  For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.  Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."  Exodus 20:8 NIV

IMHO most of the Bible are guides and examples of how to live our lives. There are very few things which the Lord was adamant about, and those he made into "Commandments". He called them that for a reason. They are not the "10 suggestions" or the "10 things I'd like for you to do".

Man (in his infinite wisdom) found it expedient to make some adjustments to those commandments to better fit what he wanted to do (remember, God gave us free will). This has become tradition in many religions, and is practiced today by all but a few religions who use the Bible as their basis of worship. Many refuse to change because it would be too difficult and inconvienent.

Ultimatly, the way I understand the Bible, when judgment day arrives, we will be held accountable for how we kept the commandments. If we go thru life without ever knowing that the Sabbath is to be kept Holy (as many have not, and do not now), they are not held responsible, however if we know the commandment, and choose not to follow it, when we are judged we will have to answer for it.

Hope that clears it up some. Maybe some of the others can chiime in and clarify if I missed some points.

Erik

[MagPede]

Guess it's bout time for me to chime in. I'm only 17 so don't expect much out of this but here goes. I am a Baptist and believe that there is heaven and hell and that when you die you'll go to one or the other (no in between) depending on whether or not you chose to accept Christ as your Lord and saviour. Now about the sabbath day, well, I believe that it's a day set aside for worship and things of the like not necessarily a particular day. But for me it is Sunday. Not saying it's the "right" day. Also as far as I know there is no proof that the "1st day" was either sunday, monday, tuesday, etc., just that it was the first day of creation.

[supermat]

You are both making an excellent point. I must agree with you that breaking the commandments is sin. That's plain and simple. I actually disagree on your opinion of accountability being related to whether or not you've been informed, I believe you're accountable regardless but that is a null point. From you're perspective I've probably just said that I'm condemned and I know it but let me explain. I guess the difference lies in how the sabbath is recognized... (please call me out if you dissagree with something I say) Why is the Sabbath recongnized on Saturday? I don't understand why the saturday is so important. Why is it that I cant work 6 days and take off every monday as my day of rest to recognize the sabbath and to keep it holy? Different people work different weekly schedules and that may be their 7th day. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe the jews used a different calendar week than we do so their sabbath was in fact different than our own, or rather, your own. Please explain.

Also, I'll get a hold of whatever you send to Blackdog so no need for 2 copies.

Matt

[germ]

You both make excellent points, and when I first heard about this, I had the same question/concern. It was explained to me in a way that made perfect sense, but unfortunatly, I cannot remember the explanation right now. I will go home (in 45 minutes yippeeee!) and will try and research this and get back to you tomorrow.

bd if you (or anyone else for that matter) has a good explanation, please post up.

Erik

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I actually posted a link already that explains that the calender has change, but the daily cycle of days has not changed.

As for proof  let me try to explain.  I have heard that there is actually proof that the daily cycle hasn't changed since before Christ was on earth, admittedly I have not actually seen it.  Everyone seems to agree that Jesus died on Friday (Good Friday) and was in the tomb on Sabbath and was raised on Sunday morning (Easter Sunday & mainstream day of worship) the 3rd day. When I mentioned above that the Catholic church openly changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, here are a couple of quotes.

"Q: Which is the Sabbath day?
A: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday"

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy.  There is no such law in the Bible.  It is a law of the Holy Catholic Church alone.  The Bible says, Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.  The Catholic church says, No by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.  And low the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church."

Priest Enright C.S.S.R, Kansas City, MO

As I have stated before, Catholics (people that believe in the Popes authority) have a much easier time of explaining Sunday worship than do Christians that don't claim to follow the Pope and instead believe the Bible as #1.  I know that there are a couple of Catholics reading this thread and I would hope that they would be willing to verify the infomation that I posted as it is fact, the 1st one should be easy.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Here is the link again that explains the transfer from Saturday to Sunday in detail.

http://www.biblelight.net/notsun.htm

[Rocksurfer]

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.  On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, or your animals, nor the alien within your gates.  For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.  Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."  Exodus 20:8 NIV

Could someone tell all the hoodlums and criminals about this so maybe I could get Sunday's off.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Could someone tell all the hoodlums and criminals about this so maybe I could get Sunday's off.

Don't you mean Saturday off?

Anybody else want to post up some specific beliefs on their religion (LDS, Catholic, Baptist, etc..), I think that this thread can be a great tool for understanding each other better.  Often time we pick on other peoples beliefs simply because we don't understand them.

Germ, you got anything for us today?

One other thing that I thought about on the way to work today.  Revelation talks about the mark of the beast vs. the seal of God.  A seal contains three elements: (1) Title (2) Jurisdiction (3) Authority.

(1) Lord
(2) Heavens, earth , sea...
(3) Creator

I think that I have the three things listed correctly, in any case, the 4th commandment is the only one that contains all of the required elements.

[mr4x42u]

I don't believe in god,,or a faith,,what it is,, is what it is...

If there really is a god,,then its no god I would follow anyway..How could you feel right about a god that lets so many children in the world suffer??how could you follow a god that lets so many take the path of wrong doing?If good is truly better then evil how can this be..I also feel if there was one god,,then there would be one religion,,if this one god truly gets mad that no other god be set before him then you have about a 1 out of 100 chance that you picked the correct reliogion when its time to be saved..Is that really a chance your going to take??seems like a lot of risk for somthing you guys really know nothing about..what i mean by nothing is you have nothing to show that yes,,there is a god..

I don't know that I believe in evolution100% but its seems alot more realistic then some super power god that can create heaven and earth.. evolution is a theory kind of like gravity..

[BLACKDOG]

That is one of the things that is so great about God.  He doesnt control us like mindless zombies. We have freewill.  As sad as it is, he allows children to suffer, because it is human nature that allows them to suffer.  If we had a perfect Utopia, then that would mean that we were being controlled, and didnt have minds of our own.  He gave us His word, the Bible, to teach us how to follow him, and for those who choose not to, that is their choice.

[Rocksurfer]

That is one of the things that is so great about God.  He doesnt control us like mindless zombies. We have freewill.  As sad as it is, he allows children to suffer, because it is human nature that allows them to suffer.  If we had a perfect Utopia, then that would mean that we were being controlled, and didnt have minds of our own.  He gave us His word, the Bible, to teach us how to follow him, and for those who choose not to, that is their choice.

But in saying this you have now informed us what the after-life is, a mindless controlled Utopia.

[BLACKDOG]

But in saying this you have now informed us what the after-life is, a controlled Utopia.

The "afterlife" is not going to be a controlled utopia, but rather a place without sin at all.  As much as what I understand (which isnt much) There will be no more suffering, basically the afterlife is going to be worshipping God, and spending time with him.  I have no doubts that there will be wheeling, Rugby, feasts, basketball, and whatnot in heaven,, only difference is, no one will get hurt. 

 I'd like blackdiamond or supermat to jump in on this one, as I am sure he could probably help mw out a little, make this a little more intelligent. 

[supermat]

bd and Germ,
  A new thought this morning as I try to understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why the 4th commandment could condemn me. After all, Jesus died for ALL of my sins correct? So when I commit sin it is covered by his death. If I break the commandments I am sinning but I am still covered by God's loving salvation. So why then, does the 4th commandment hold so much power in your faith? Obviously, breaking a commandment is sin, though I'm not yet convinced my Sunday worship is breaking the commandment, but supposing it is, wouldn't that be covered by the blood of Christ?
 Also, if you got a chance to finish that research on Saturday remaining Saturday through history, I'd love to get a hold of that info. Thanks again to both of you not only for starting this discussion but for following through and answering our inquiries. I never knew the depth of your committments to the subject matter and I'm learning a lot.

Matt

[BLACKDOG]

bd sent me some stuff matt, I'll pass it on
bd, started readins some of Daniel last night, curious to see how It reads out.  I didnt get too much into it yet, but you're right, there is some interesting stuff in there.

[supermat]

What is going to happen after this earth is gone is a very deep subject. If you're not willing to accept the Bible as a teaching tool there is little we can do to convince you of this subject. Salvation and truth can be found through what we call natural revelation, in other words you see God's creation and recognize there is a God, then begin pursuing who He may be until you find Him. But Heaven is a different matter, you cant look out the window, see a tree and say, "Hey, that must be what heaven is like." So in order to gain details of this matter you have to accept the Biblical teaching about what it will be. (Or some other religious manuscript based on your belief system I suppose). BlackDog hit it pretty well. Heaven is going to be a sinless environment where you naturally have a desire to simply worship God. His power and prowess are so far beyond our comprehension that when we truly see Him we'll have nothing but respect and a desire to worship. If you've got any specific questions, feel free to throw them out there! I've got to get to work but I'll check back in around lunch time.

matt

[mr4x42u]

That is one of the things that is so great about God.  He doesnt control us like mindless zombies. We have freewill.  As sad as it is, he allows children to suffer, because it is human nature that allows them to suffer.  If we had a perfect Utopia, then that would mean that we were being controlled, and didnt have minds of our own.  He gave us His word, the Bible, to teach us how to follow him, and for those who choose not to, that is their choice.

If this god you speak of is so powerfull,,,why let the suffering continue,,,some children and countries don't have the power to feed the children,,why bring them into to the world to suffer,they say a child is a creation of god,,,so why let them suffer,,and i don't think it has anything to do with us as humans letting them suffer....at leats not my opinion..


I do feel IF there is a god,,Then we are to live our life as a good being,,and an all around nice guy and gal,,I don't think if we believe or disbelieve will effect going to heaven or hell,,or call it what you will..I think the idea behind free will has some pull..i don;t think because I did not go to church and did not say my prayesr will have any effect on the out come of going to heaven..

I also feel kind of ashamed of the faith so many follow,,good or bad,,its sad soooo many child molesters and preists and murderers hide behind the faith and this god so many speak of lets this happen...I would not follow that god who lets such bad things happen to kids by those who are supposed to be a man of god..

[KYOTA]

I havent read thru all 4 pages but has anyone claimed Nihilism?
       
            nihilism:
            a viewpoint that traditional
            values and beliefs are unfounded
            and that exsistence is senseless and useless

[germ]

Ok, I did a bunch of research, and hope your sitting down, ‘cause this is some heavy stuff. Please remember, I am not judging anyone’s beliefs, nor am I pointing fingers. I am not suggesting that you will go straight to hell if you don’t agree. Some of this may fly in the face of all you have been taught over the years, and I would not be surprised if some would find this upsetting. I am merely stating the facts as I have come to know them and trying feebly to answer the very tough questions posed about why keeping the Sabbath is so very important to those of us in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This is based on several scriptures in the Bible, and other sources that have been shown to me. Please feel free to disagree, but I also ask that you would read the bible for yourself, and see if it makes some sense.

Saturday is the seventh and last day of the week. It was on the last (seventh) day of creation that God rested. In Ezekiel 20:12-20 it states that the Lord gave us the Sabbath as a sign to his people that he is the creator and that we should worship him. (It is also good reading to understand how He feels when we don’t keep the Sabbath). He goes on to clearly state in Exodus that we are to keep the Sabbath holy (see previous post and below). This is the 4th commandment.

Matthew 12:10 talks about how it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath, and Mark 3:4 as well as Luke 14:3 talk about how it is lawful to do good works on the Sabbath.

Sunday was a holy day to the Pagans/Heathens, who worshiped the sun on the first day of the week. They worshiped other gods on other days. Thursday for example was to worship Thor the god of thunder.

For those of you who believe “it is just a day”, I say this: The Lord has given us this day to represent his commitment to us and for us to worship Him. Much like pieces of red, white and blue cloth are “just pieces of cloth” and are meaningless as such, when they are assembled correctly they become the American Flag, which represents freedom. Millions of men and women have willingly given their lives to defend what the flag represents (over 1600 since 2003). So too does the Sabbath represent our willingness to follow the commandments and do that which God has asked us to do. It is not “just a day” but rather the day that God has set aside for us to worship, rest and reflect on our relationship with Him. In Mark 2:27,28 the Bible states that the Sabbath was made for man.

So, why is this so important? Why do we make such a big deal about it? Here is the very difficult section, and I warn you that you may not like what I have to say here.

In the 4th century, the Roman Church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday as a way to try and bring all the different religions into it’s fold, and create one day of worship. Sunday was chosen as a way to include some of the tenets of these other churches, and to demonstrate its power to bring these religions together. They also included icons and idols, but that’s a whole different discussion. (Referenced from Catechism notes from 1948) The Roman Church readily admits “worship on Sunday is our mark of authority”.


It comes down to this… Satan was thrown out of heaven because he wanted to be worshiped and be “as powerful” as God. He is trying to lead as many people as possible away from God, in order to get the worship he desires. There are some who will worship him for who he is, but he knows that he would not be able to get Christians to worship him if he did not deceive them. So, in order to do this, he appears to be Christ-like so that people will follow him not knowing the difference. He is a counterfeit and like all counterfeits he is “almost” identical to the original, exceptionally difficult to discern, but slightly different. One of the ways he deceives Christians is that he has convinced people that Sunday is the accepted day of worship. This is close, but not exactly what God has said. God clearly states in Exodus 20:8-11, 31:14-16, 35:2-3, Leviticus 16:31, and Deuteronomy 5:12-15 among others that the day of worship that HE has established is the Sabbath.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in. Those who keep the commandments will not receive the mark of the beast. The true mark of the beast is rejecting the word of God for the word of Satan or man. Revelations 14:9-10 shows a clear warning to us about accepting the mark of the beast. Revelations 13:3,4,8 shows how all the world will follow and worship the beast. To receive the mark on the head means to have the belief in the teachings of Satan (deceit), or to choose to follow mans authority over Gods. (God says do this…Man says yes, but I will do that). To have the mark on the hand means that you know it is wrong, but by your works (or lack of works), you follow the teachings of Satan or man instead of Gods plan. The mark will not become evident until law is passed (around the world) that makes it “illegal” to follow the commandments as they are written, and forces people to follow the word of man.

The scary part is that we are much closer than you would think to doing this. In 1998, Pope John Paul II wrote a 140 page letter to all the churches called the Dies Domini, which discusses the importance of keeping the official day of worship as Sunday (among many other subjects). In 2001, G.W. Bush (U.S. President) made public comments that we as American’s should follow the Pope’s teachings. While this is not “law”, it shows that we have started down the path, and that one day this will come to pass as it is prophesied in the Bible.

So, why is it so important? Well in a word: Salvation. Why do we make such a big deal about it? We want you to be saved as well.

Now for my disclaimer, because I know this is complicated and heavy. This is a synopsis of some of the teachings I have been exposed to, and some of the ideas that led me to this church. My hope is that it will spur you to read your Bible and learn Gods truth. There are variations on people’s understanding of what I have written, and many disagree. I do not by any means profess to be an expert on this, nor do I write/speak for all Adventists (or anyone else for that matter). This does not make me any better or worse than anyone else, and I am not holier than thou. As long as your good folk, I’d be happy to go wheelin’ with all of you.

[gonzo]

 

[BLACKDOG]

  hang on

ok got it.  

As far as I am concerned, I still believe that I can worship God on any day of the week (yes we shoud worship him everyday) for example, My career choice is firefighter.  I am not one yet, but when I become one, I will have to work on Sat. and Sun.  should I not worship, and set aside time for God on one of my days off?  and make that my "sabbath"  so that I can fulfill my duty, and privlege in honoring my God??  But I will tell you one thing, if it cmes down to it, and it is made illegal to worship on Saturday, you'll find that I will start worshipping on Sat.  Out of respect for SDA beleifs? probably not.  Out of protest that I've been told I cant do something for no good reason? most likely.  So, does that still condemn me? that I would wait until that time?  Ifc that soundsw disrespectful its not intended to.

[germ]

I don't believe in god,,or a faith,,what it is,, is what it is...

If there really is a god,,then its no god I would follow anyway..How could you feel right about a god that lets so many children in the world suffer??how could you follow a god that lets so many take the path of wrong doing?If good is truly better then evil how can this be..

God's plan for us is way beyond our feeble mind's ability to understand. While it is very true that many children and people suffer horrible things, this may play a small part if Gods overall plan, which we can't see. His reasons may be a simple as by taking one life, he will bring one or two other people to Him. Seems cruel to us, but He is the only one who knows why it happened. When we get to Heaven, we can ask what his reasons were, and he will explain it to us

I don't know that I believe in evolution100% but its seems alot more realistic then some super power god that can create heaven and earth.. evolution is a theory kind of like gravity..

God and evolution are not mutually exclusive. God created the heavens and earth, I would think that if he is powerful enough to do that, he would also be intelligent enough to create a plan to allow species to adapt.

[germ]

bd and Germ,
  A new thought this morning as I try to understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why the 4th commandment could condemn me. After all, Jesus died for ALL of my sins correct? So when I commit sin it is covered by his death. If I break the commandments I am sinning but I am still covered by God's loving salvation. So why then, does the 4th commandment hold so much power in your faith? Obviously, breaking a commandment is sin, though I'm not yet convinced my Sunday worship is breaking the commandment, but supposing it is, wouldn't that be covered by the blood of Christ?

I suppose technically you are correct, but one of the basic tenets is that If you love God, you will do as he asks because you love him, not because you are afraid of the consequences. Yes, Gods will forgive you if you ask, and your are correct that the blood of Christ was shed for our salvation.

Erik

[germ]

...for example, My career choice is firefighter.  I am not one yet, but when I become one, I will have to work on Sat. and Sun.  should I not worship, and set aside time for God on one of my days off?  and make that my "sabbath"  so that I can fulfill my duty, and privlege in honoring my God?? 

Matthew 12:10, Mark 3:4 and Luke 14:3 all discuss this very issue. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath. My interpretation is that as a firefigter, you are doing good, so therefore you are within Gods law.

...But I will tell you one thing, if it cmes down to it, and it is made illegal to worship on Saturday, you'll find that I will start worshipping on Sat.  Out of respect for SDA beleifs? probably not.  Out of protest that I've been told I cant do something for no good reason? most likely.  So, does that still condemn me? that I would wait until that time?  Ifc that soundsw disrespectful its not intended to.

No, that's not disrespectfull...does sound a bit defiant though :hehe:

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

Matthew 12:10, Mark 3:4 and Luke 14:3 all discuss this very issue. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath. My interpretation is that as a firefigter, you are doing good, so therefore you are within Gods law.

No, that's not disrespectfull...does sound a bit defiant though :hehe:

Erik

I undestand that it is lawful to do good on the sabbath.  But wouldnt it be good to still celebrate the Sabbath, even if it is on a different day?   On a side note, I do not feel that changnig a day of worship should be taken lightly.  going to church is important and fellowshipping with beleivers is as well.  Wed. night youth group and Friday night Bible studis are not substitutes for Sunday (or Sat.) service in my book.   When I do work, and I am off on Sundays, I will be going to church.    While I think the sabbath can be any day, I dont mean that it is to be what is conveneient for me. 

Erik, what about the condemning part?  I know that is defiant, but if a law is passed that is stupid (ie doesnt hurt anyone at all, and makes no sense) then it is our duty as US citzens to argue it.  My question was about the Godly condmening.  Right thing for the wrong reasons type thing I guess is what is comes down to.

[germ]

Erik, what about the condemning part? I know that is defiant, but if a law is passed that is stupid (ie doesnt hurt anyone at all, and makes no sense) then it is our duty as US citzens to argue it. My question was about the Godly condmening. Right thing for the wrong reasons type thing I guess is what is comes down to.

I agree with you completley about arguing stupid laws, Its our right and responsiblity as citizens of society.

My understanding is that the Sunday laws, are going to be kind of the "breaking point" if you will that will truly separate the ones who follow the Bible and Gods teachings, and those who do not. Again, it is somewhat difficult to read, but I've referenced a few scriptures, which address the issue that Satan will have the masses worshiping him. In order to do this, he must trick them. This is how you are condemned. You are not following Gods law, but rather Satan's law. That is a sin, and that results in condemnation.

I think the other part of the condemnation (now that I've read and re-read your post) is that we need to be following Gods laws of our own free will. The key (i think) is that we do it because we WANT to, and for no other reason. Will it make a difference in the end? Unfortunatly, I don't know. Only God can judge that. I would think that he would look at our intention as well as our actions. Remember, we are not saved by acts (works) alone.

IMHO, God would not tell us that if we don't follow his commandments we will be condemned, and then not tell us how to figure it out and do His will. All the information we need is in the Bible. We just need to look for it (not always easy I'll admit).

I hope this clarify's your question. If not let me know, and I'll try again.

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

What you're saying makes sense, but it still doesnt answer my question, but I dont think I am asking very clearly.  Dont worr about it   I have to agree with supermat though, isn't the blood of Chirst coverage for our sins?  Even if we sin, we are fogiven, by His grace.  Even if we sin knowingly, we are still forgiven, because although w eare to strive to be like Christ, we have a sin nature, and we will fall from time to time.

Another question for everyone.  Do you beleive that you can lose your salvation?

[mr4x42u]

God's plan for us is way beyond our feeble mind's ability to understand. While it is very true that many children and people suffer horrible things, this may play a small part if Gods overall plan, which we can't see. His reasons may be a simple as by taking one life, he will bring one or two other people to Him. Seems cruel to us, but He is the only one who knows why it happened. When we get to Heaven, we can ask what his reasons were, and he will explain it to us

God and evolution are not mutually exclusive. God created the heavens and earth, I would think that if he is powerful enough to do that, he would also be intelligent enough to create a plan to allow species to adapt.

It seems to me such a smart god could find ways to  guide those that need to be guided,,such as the priests that molest kids..Part of a plan,,,well you keep that plan and that god..I'll do with out thanks,,of wait,,thats free will,,he can creat heaven and earth  yet can't keeps the kids of the world safe..It just seems so simple I don't see the need for all the mystery..This god is so powerful and all..so you say taking life could be part of a master plan,,take life and bring life back,,well I guess thats all fine and dandy as long as your not the kid who lives in poverty who is getting molested by a preist,,who can talk to god,,yet destroys a childs life...sounds like god has a great plan going,,glad i'm not part of it.

[BLACKDOG]

Sin seperates people from God, and any priest that molests a child has strayed far from God.  Any preistly acts he has are a cover up, and are not God inspired, or even God related.  It is horrible what some people have to go through, but you can also look at it thogh a different light, that people suffernig is a failure f humans to take care of one another, that God allows people to suffer in order for people to use their spiritual gifts to help others, so in turn, others can help others.  Everyone has heard the stories of people who have dead end lives, and get turned around, and then reach out.
We actually have a man at our church, has 2 strikes against him, was saved in prison.  He was in solitary confinement, and a guard slipped him a Bible.  He read it, was saved, and when releaed, fell back into doing the same old thing.  Wound up back in jail, determined to set his life straight, and when he got out, he moved up here, cut off all contact with his friends, and started life over.  He is now a manager at a larger plant, has a wife and a baby girl, and wants to reach out to others.

[synwars]

Wow this is some heavy stuff. I will admit that that was some tedious reading, yeesh. I didn't realize there was so much interest in religion, or spirituality for that matter on this board. I'm glad no one is getting too excited either, because I know from experience that conversations like this can get WAY out of hand and escalate quite quickly. I notice that there is about half that don't know what to believe, and then the other as a mix of SDA/Baptist/Catholic. Kudos to those who are participating on this topic as Jesus stated in Matt 5:3 that, "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." I too am conscious of my spiritual need. My faith has a closer similarity to SDA but with a touch of Catholic. I am what you might call a Witness of Jehovah, aka "Juhovah" or "JW" or "Jehovah's Witness".

One point I would like to bring to the fore is that those religiously inclined have a belief in "God". Seeing as the Bible is "inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight," (2 Tim 3:16,17) then perhaps for future reasoning we should all stick to what God has instructed us in his word the Bible and reason on that and not tradition. Whatever statement said, back it up with a scripture or verse from the Bible. And because translations differ in words, please try and quote it as I have done above.

bd you bring out some good points regarding the Sabbath, and BD also about days of worship. If it isn't too much, I would like to ask germ and bd some questions regarding the Sabbath. Alas, I have run out of time now because I am off to go preach "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14) and to "make disciples of people of all the nations." I've gots to go but I will be back on later tonight. I'll post up my questions and I look forward to your responses.

God and the Bible is not complicated, rather, people make it complicated.