How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[blackdiamond]

Can God move mountains?

I have no doubt that God can move mountains, He created the world (I can't see how it could be any other way), He caused the flood and He has guided my life from the beginning.

I recently heard a story from a missionary that works in New Gineau (Spelling?) and he told about going into a village where a young boy and recently died and they were in the middle of the funeral.  They knew that he was a Godly (Christian) man and looked to him for help.  He said that he was unable to do anything; however, the young man that came along with him (that was from a local village and had recently accepted Christ) took the little boy in his hands, lifted him in the air and started praying.  The "pastor" guy admitted that he didn't have the faith and wished that the young man hadn't set the village up for more dissapointment, but the little boy did come back to life.  The bottom line is this: God can do anything, we just don't have enough faith.  There are several stories in the Bible about people being raised from the dead and I believe that we could do the same if we could put aside our disbelief and allow God to work.

[mr4x42u]

sorry,,I call  :bull crap:    I think someone screwed up and just thought he was dead,,,its more possible that the boy was alive and was going to be buried alive then him coming back to life,,drugs and conditions DO exist that support that it is possible..but very doubtful that he was really dead and came back to life..

If you guys buy that then you should by my handy dandy heaven maker,,,all you do is slide this under your pillow each night and you will go to heaven when yuo die,,I sell them for only 499.00 a set,,,thats a small price to pay to go to heaven,,and its a set,,as in two..I will give you a full money back garuntee if you don't make it to heaven..

[rockhound]

I cruise Marlins forum for posts I think I can contribute to.
Some entertaining, some nonsensical,(sic) and informative.
I saw this one come up and purposely avoided it.
Cardinal rules...don't discuss religion or politics.
Last night I just jumped in.

[blackdiamond]

I have often wondered why adults can't discuss religion in a constructive way since it is either looked at as the most important subject or the biggest waste of time.  This board is awesome!

As for calling BS, I wouldn't expect that you (nothing against you at all) would believe the story; however, anybody that claims a belief in the God of Creation (the God that gives life) and doesn't believe that this story if possible might as well pack their bags to ignor religion.  I have never personally witnessed anything this dramatic, but I do believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it is possible.  Can we agree on that?

[BLACKDOG]

sorry,,I call  :bull crap:    I think someone screwed up and just thought he was dead,,,its more possible that the boy was alive and was going to be buried alive then him coming back to life,,drugs and conditions DO exist that support that it is possible..but very doubtful that he was really dead and came back to life..

If you guys buy that then you should by my handy dandy heaven maker,,,all you do is slide this under your pillow each night and you will go to heaven when yuo die,,I sell them for only 499.00 a set,,,thats a small price to pay to go to heaven,,and its a set,,as in two..I will give you a full money back garuntee if you don't make it to heaven..

Tell you what, I'll buy that when you buy my oceanfront property in Arizona.    I too have heard this story, and while it does seem far fetched, I see no reason why it wouldnt be true.  I myself have seen situations and cases where people should have died, or did die, and they are still alive.  My little brother's best friend was born premature and with his intestines and other organs hanging out of his stomach.  He is now 16 years old, and is living a normal life.  His surgeons themselves credit God for his survival, because they gave him almost no chance of living to 5, then 10, then 15, and even now, he is healthier than they said he would ever be, and he is getting better everyday.

Science didt save him, God did.  I'm sure germ can back me up that many times doctors realize just how little they know, and how much God truly does

[germ]

Science didn't save him, God did.  I'm sure germ can back me up that many times doctors realize just how little they know, and how much God truly does

While it is true that we have a dizzying array of science and technology that can do/see/fix some incredible things, I have also seen on more than one occasion when we have exhausted all our resources, and not cured the illness. People have made miraculous (sp?) recoveries that leave doctors scratching their heads. Trauma is another place where we see things that should by all measures kill someone outright, and they not only survive, but go on to lead essentially normal lives. Likewise, we see on an all to frequent basis people who have what would appear to be minor injuries, who die. Doesn't make sense sometimes.

I recently heard a story from a missionary that works in New Guinea (Spelling?) and he told about going into a village where a young boy and recently died and they were in the middle of the funeral.  They knew that he was a Godly (Christian) man and looked to him for help.  He said that he was unable to do anything; however, the young man that came along with him (that was from a local village and had recently accepted Christ) took the little boy in his hands, lifted him in the air and started praying.  The "pastor" guy admitted that he didn't have the faith and wished that the young man hadn't set the village up for more dissapointment, but the little boy did come back to life.  The bottom line is this: God can do anything, we just don't have enough faith.  There are several stories in the Bible about people being raised from the dead and I believe that we could do the same if we could put aside our disbelief and allow God to work

There are not enough facts in this story to say for sure exactly what happened in this particular case. In my belief, it is completely possible that God would bring this child back to life. Did it actually happen here? I dunno. I'm inclined to believe it did, because the God I know wants us to believe and follow him. This would be a perfect opportunity to show his love for his followers.

Faith is not blindly following and accepting. Faith is about learning, searching and realizing that God is about love, and his promise of salvation can only come by following His word. Most of the well known and prolific writers (prophets) had very difficult times dealing with their faith at one point or another. The Bible abounds with examples of how a prophet turned away from God initially, then realized the error in their ways and returned to receive a greater blessing.

Rockhound, First I want to welcome  you to the thread, and your comments are always welcome, whether or not I (or anyone else) agree with them. There is no judgement on my part, and I appreciate your perspective.

Just a couple of thoughts on your post:

All religion is a form of government, established to control the congregation

In most cases you're right. Many religions use their perceived authority to control their "congregation". This is not what my understanding of what God wants. He wants us to develop an individual relationship with him. When you have searched and found the truth, then find a church that teaches the truth. Do not let the legalistic ways of some religions turn you away from God, as the religion (church) is the problem, not God.

Faith is powerful. A strong belief in the power of faith precludes definition.  " I just believe." Explain that

Faith is something you achieve when you have spend time searching and learning. When you have spent time figuring out where you want your life to go, then the Holy Spirit will help you with your faith. "I just believe" in a sense is a cop-out. It means that either you believe because someone told you too, or you don't have the will or the means to defend your belief system. Sometimes, in the face of a very aggressive and hostile confrontation with a non-believer, it is easier to say "I just believe". The Bible reminds us not to cast pearls before the swine.

If you must have a purpose, love one another.
Without all the hyperbole, that is the message of all the prophets, no?

Yep, that's it. The one part you left out however, is love God as well.

God is love. Period

Couldn't have said it any better (or simpler) myself. Thanks.

I'll try and post some more later. I'd like to address/question some of what Synwars has written, but my time is unfortunately limited.

Erik 

[germ]

Furthermore, When Jesus was asked, "Master, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" did he isolate the Ten Commandments? Instead, he replied: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22:35-40)

If you claim that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians but that the other parts of the Law are not, are you not actually rejecting what Jesus referred to as which commandments are the greatest? After all, he did quote the greatest commands from the Mosaic Law did he not? Not from the Ten Commandments...

My understanding of this was that he did not pick out a single commandment because he knew then the people would discard the other commandments and only follow the one he spoke of. Rather, he combined the general intent of all the commandments and used that as an object lesson, referring back to the 10 commandments as how to achieve the intent. It was not his desire to do away with the commandments.

Upholding the Sabbath was part of that Law. Christ was used to bring an end to that Law. Our having an approved and righteous standing with God depends greatly on our faith in Jesus Christ, not on keeping a weekly Sabbath

Not sure I agree with this interpretation. Jesus led by example. It was his custom to go to the synagouge on the Sabbath. He spoke about keeping the Sabbath and made a great example by throwing the money changers out of the courtyard. If you could expand on this some, I'd appreciate it.


Synwars, you bring up some interesting quotes/thoughts. I have to admit however, that I'm not entirly sure I follow some of the logic used to come to the conclusions. (some examples above). it appears (and I have to admit, I have not had time to go and research each quotation you provide), that you are taking 1 verse, and applying it globally, rather than take the message contained in the whole scripture that surrounds it. (does that make sense?). I'd appreciate if you could expand on some of your thoughts, particularly the ones I've quoted above.

Also, I'd be very interested in hearing more about the actual mark identifying true Christians. In Rev 7:1, God talks about putting a mark on the foreheads of the true believers, and as I understand it, the figurative language actually means that he will put the faith in the mind of the belivers, and not an actual, visual mark. Your thoughts?

Erik 

[blackdiamond]

Tell you what, I'll buy that when you buy my oceanfront property in Arizona. I too have heard this story, and while it does seem far fetched, I see no reason why it wouldn't be true. I myself have seen situations and cases where people should have died, or did die, and they are still alive. My little brother's best friend was born premature and with his intestines and other organs hanging out of his stomach. He is now 16 years old, and is living a normal life. His surgeons themselves credit God for his survival, because they gave him almost no chance of living to 5, then 10, then 15, and even now, he is healthier than they said he would ever be, and he is getting better everyday.

Science didn't save him, God did. I'm sure germ can back me up that many times doctors realize just how little they know, and how much God truly does

The bottom line is that anyone who believes that Christ is risen from the grave shouldn't have any trouble believing a story like this, instead it should be exciting news!

[mr4x42u]

all i'm saying is this is what seems to confuse people,,,what some take as a medical mistake,,now is taken as an act of god,,its just silly to believe that kind of stuff..  I think it was a medical mistake,,not god bringing the boy back to life..Some people are so gullable thy will but that awnser and thats what we seem to have here..

[blackdiamond]

Religion has made it harder for me to believe in God.
The following is sure to enrage many and confuse some.

The sad truth is that Satan has infiltrated ALL religions (even mine) because he tempts everyone.  The result of this is that people do things in the name of religion that are wrong (in some cases horrible) that range from killing to telling a visitor that they are dressed inappropriately to be in church, both are damaging and wrong.  This is why it is so important to look at God as our example rather than looking at the people around us.  We are ALL sinner and fall short of the glory of God.

You want simple?
All religion is a form of government, established to control the 'congregation'.
Jesus fulfilled a prophecy...by destiny or choice?
The Bible was written 150 years after His death. Can you remember what someone said 150 yrs. after they said it? How can anyone be sure of the quotes?
Beliefs are based on faith. The faith that what is read or what you are told to believe, is God's word or Truth.
Faith is powerful. A strong belief in the power of faith precludes definition.  " I just believe." Explain that.
Life is meaningless without purpose. We are inquisitive. We seek answers. We function better as a society with rules. A child and a dog are happier with direction, routine and purpose. That is the limit of their world. The perameters we set for them govern thier behaviour.
You are born, you live, you die.

You have a point that people function better with rules.  Religion (church) is really a support group for common believers to strengthen their faith and knowledge by sharing a studying together.  Maybe Christ gave us the example of church because he knew that we need the structure.  Avoiding sin is no different than trying to stop a bad habit, it becomes easier when we have a group of friend and family to keep us accountable.

Without relying on religion,and it's teachings, what do you believe?
Many of you can recite the pretext of your belief. Please don't recite.
What do you feel in your heart?
Look within. If you find God in your heart, know that God is also in every living thing. See God in your neighbor, I'm having a real problem with this one right now.
You don't have to let God in, He's there, you have to let Him out.
It's not impossible to treat every human being as you would God.
How strong is your faith?
Don't presume to know if God is happy or sad or dissappointed in us, if He is, He knew He would be when we were just a twinkle in His eye.
And please don't presume to know God is on your side to justify your agenda. Bull.
God is love. Period.
Once everyone realizes the simplicity of that, and lives it, we will have achieved our purpose.

You are correct that God is love, but there is more to it that just that.  As for quoting the Bible, for most Christians it is something that we have in common that we each interpret differently based on our own study and how we were raised.  Convincing you that the Bible is truth is an entirely different topic.  I would suggest looking at some of the predictions given in the Bible and see how they match history.  If you look in the right places you will find that they have found evidence (I think that the dead sea scrolls are part of this) to support the ancient timeframe of the Bible.

If you want us to give you our beliefs without using the Bible, you might as well be asking a Ford engineer to describe his latest creation without talking about cars.  I think that it is evident from the knowledge of the Bible and time spent on this thread that we have a belief in what we are posting.  The JW guy spends hours studying the Bible, the SDA like myself have shown an amazing base of facts, and BD has shown his passion for Christ in his being open and willing to learn.  The Bible is the center of our belief system, you can't take that away from us.  There is a lot to be learned from nature, but studying the Bible opens up a new world.  Even if you were doing it just for fun, without any real belief, I think that you would be amazed with the complexity of it.

[synwars]

Well said.

The question, "What do you feel in your heart?" is very misleading. Especially when it is combined with, "Forget about the Bible, forget about God, don't recite anything." Isn't that just the prevailing attitude that we see around us today as we go deeper into these last days? (2 Tim 3:1-5) "Do what YOU want! Don't let anyone boss YOU around. Do what YOU feel like doing..." That is really contrary to what God warns us about in the Bible.

At Jeremiah 17:9, Jehovah warns us that, "The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I know! I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve." (New Living Translation)

If we listen to the sinful inclinations of the heart, according to Satan's desire, we will fall trap to our own selfish desires. To what benefit? Jehovah states that he is giving them their due rewards according to their deeds. So many people think that HATE is the opposite of love. In some cases it can be derived as such, but let's see what Paul described what love isn't. 1 Cor 11:4 says, "Love... does not look for it's own interests." (NWT) I honestly believe that SELFISHNESS is the opposite of LOVE. Think about it. Selfishness causes anyone to think only of themselves, for their own benefit at anyones cost. Love on the other hand is a motivating force that makes us think always about the other person, think always about God, even if it costs us our life. It's a self sacrificing spirit that pulls us together, makes marriages and family life last. It's pure love when someone puts their life on the line for your safety.

That's my analysis of selfishness anyway. Love is also opposite to a lot of other evils but I find more so to selfishness.

Therefore, in order to follow the greatest commandments, I simply cannot just go by what my heart is telling me to do. Don't underestimate the power of our corrupt heart, it can lead ya down the road to the reward of death.

I follow the principles found in the Bible because I have seen proof in my own life, and in others how by strictly following God's directives we can truely benefit ourselves. And I'm not talking about some warm fuzzy feeling on the inside either. I'm talking experiencing happiness and joy and peace and a clear conscience right now. I'm talking bright futures ahead, light at the end of the tunnel. I fully trust in Jehovah, and I know through experience that, "the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart." (Hebrews 4:12 NWT)

[synwars]

My understanding of this was that he did not pick out a single commandment because he knew then the people would discard the other commandments and only follow the one he spoke of.

Right, he didn't pick out one commandment, rather, he picked out two. Remember the question was, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the LAW?" He didn't ask, "What is the greatest of the Ten Words?" Jesus was born a Jew and thus followed the laws and customs of the Jews, such as following of the Mosaic Law Covenant. No Jew then would have counted the Ten Words as more important than the Mosaic Law Covenant, both were vitally important to follow because it was legally binding the Jews to a relationship with Jehovah. Both meant death to those that did not follow it. Therefore, in reply Jesus quoted two laws as most important. He quoted Deut 6:4,5 and Lev 19:18. Note that these two laws are not from the Ten Words. But both have Love as the factoring principle.

Rather, he combined the general intent of all the commandments... It was not his desire to do away with the commandments.

Exactly the point I was going to make clear. There is nothing wrong with the Commandments in the Law, except that they ARE COMMANDMENTS. No matter how good a law or commandment is, as long as sinful inclinations dominate a person's desires, there will be lawlessness. However, regarding the new covenant, which has replaced the Law covenant, Hebrews 8:10 states: "'For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.'" (This was Paul of course quoting Jer 31:33) How much more effective such laws are than those engraved on stone tablets!

Look also at Romans 6:15-17: "Shall we commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness? Never may that happen! Do you not know that if you keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, you are slaves of him because you obey him, either of sin with death in view or of obedience with righteousness in view? But thanks to God that you were the slaves of sin but you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were handed over."

Obedient from the heart, making your mind over. Also, Galatians 5:16-24, "But I say, Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all. For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that YOU would like to do YOU do not do. Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires."

The law covered all of the above mention desires of the flesh. But because we no longer work for the flesh, but work along in spirit, we do not need the law. If you are being led by spirit, given to us after the death of Christ, then we don't need the law because we put forth the fruitage of the spirit. We have already given up our fleshly desires when we dedicated our lives to God, and got baptized. It's all about principles I tell you. There is a principle to be found behind each and every law and commandment from the MLC including the Ten Words, with the motivating force being Love, the first of the fruitages of the spirit. Hence, why Jesus stated Love of God and Neighbor as being the greatest because that is what moves us to action. It is in our hearts.

There is even a principle found behind the commandment regarding the weekly Sabbath in the MLC. Who can tell me what it is?

Jesus led by example. It was his custom to go to the synagouge on the Sabbath.

You are right. Jesus DID lead by example. Does that mean though that we should literally wash the feet of Christians as Jesus said at John 13:14,15, "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." (KJV) Or did he want us to follow the principles involved? Likewise, because Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath as prescribed by the Law at that time, does that mean he wants us to follow him in imitation even though he never told us to? Or did he want us to follow the principle involved?

Also, I'd be very interested in hearing more about the actual mark identifying true Christians.

Ok so what is a Christian anyway? What is the definition of a Christian?

Merium-Webster's online dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." It also gives a reference to the word Disciple. Again, it defines a Disciple as "one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another (example) as one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts."

So a Christian is one who adhere's to and shares in spreading the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Everyone agree?

Let's go back to my question earlier: "On that note, does anyone know what Jesus said would be the actual identifying mark of true Christians?"

Let's look at John 13:31-35, "Hence when he had gone out, Jesus said: "Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him. And God will himself glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately. Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, 'Where I go YOU cannot come,' I say also to YOU at present. I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

Jesus knew that the time he had left on earth was reduced. And he also knew of the spiritual welfare of his disciples. Thus as a protection and to keep them strong after his death he commanded them saying, "love one another, just as I have loved you." How much did Jesus love them? To the point of death! He also said, "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

In contrast, we know that our days in this wicked old system have been reduced, for we are living in the "last days", in the fulfilling of the composite sign in Matt 24. Jesus knew that we would be living in "critical times hard to deal with", therefore he gave us this principle to follow as a protection from Satan, and to draw us closer together. Note, too, that Jesus stated that LOVE would be the identification of true Christians. As this old system gets worse and worse, as the harvest time draws to a close, the weeds and the wheat will become more easily distinguishable. And LOVE is the distinguishing mark.

What kind of LOVE are we talking about here anyway? Which of the four greek words defining Love was Jesus refering to?

Of course that isn't the only requirement of true Christians. Obviously it includes much more. So, what other identifying marks can we look for then?

Also, I will go into more detail regarding the Sabbath and it's intent as well as the principle behind it later and the "resting period" we can take part in. There are some Hebrew words I was cross translating with the KJV regarding the scripture bd brought up in the old testament, talking about the Sabbath being a "Lasting Covenant" that I will share as well that I think you may find interesting...

Ok I'm off to bed, it's almost 1am and I'm toast. Post up any more questions and I'll do my best to answer them. I'll be gone until 6ish tomorrow, out in the preaching work from noon on til 5:30 tomorrow.

[orygunner]

the christians are also identified with having their heads crammed up their ass and walkin around all righteous while pissin in everyones cornflakes and callin it knowledge

[mr4x42u]

the christians are also identified with having their heads crammed up their ass and walkin around all righteous while pissin in everyones cornflakes and callin it knowledge

       
amen

[blackdiamond]

Nice post synwars, I have not had a chance to read it in detail, and I don't agree with everything you posted as expected.  I will try to respond this evening when I have a chance to think without distractions.

To those have have been involved, or lurking, in the thread since it started, let's all make the extra effort to keep the discussion respectful.

[synwars]

the christians are also identified with having their heads crammed up their ass and walkin around all righteous while pissin in everyones cornflakes and callin it knowledge

See, now, why do you have to go and say something so ignorant? Like, come on, think about it. That's a physical impossibility to walk around with something so large up the bum. That would dislocate your hip or something.

Anyways, think what you want, but I'm pretty sure that no Christian here thinks more of himself than he should. It is common knowledge that everyone is on the same level. We are all sinners thus deserving of death. Rather, we view the changed course of life that we live much as the Apostle Paul described at Romans 12:1-3 :

"Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason. And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For through the undeserved kindness given to me I tell everyone there among YOU not to think more of himself than it is necessary to think; but to think so as to have a sound mind, each one as God has distributed to him a measure of faith." (NWT)

And this "knowledge" you talk about, is the same knowledge that leads us to everlasting life that Jesus talked about at John 17:3, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (NWT) And also at 1 Tim 2:3,4, "This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (NWT)

I am certainly not going to trade in something so valuable (knowledge) for something worth far less (ignorance), just because someone (you) has a guilty conscience or hurt feelings because this knowledge is forcing recognition of the fact that we are all accountable to God for our actions.

I'm sorry to break it ya, but "Ignorance" does not stand up in the Court of Law, nor will it won't stand when the Lord's day arrives, before our perfect Judge Jesus Christ.

[BLACKDOG]

the christians are also identified with having their heads crammed up their ass and walkin around all righteous while pissin in everyones cornflakes and callin it knowledge

to the thread orgy runner, glad to have you share your beliefs.  Sorry to have you missinformed though, headshake, I know I'm not flexible enough to hqave my head up my arse, and if I were, I dont think I'd be able to walk correctly.  As for pissing in other peoples cornflakes, now thats just wrong   But once again, welcome to our discussion, and please continue to share

[germ]

the christians are also identified with having their heads crammed up their ass and walkin around all righteous while pissin in everyones cornflakes and callin it knowledge

While it is unfortunatly true that there are some Christians who feel "above" others because of their supposed understanding and their percieved salvation, I think you will find that **TRUE** Christians are actually very humble and would not act this way. There are zeolots, who unfortunatly give all Christains a bad name. Similarly, there are a few idiot 4wheelers, who give all of us a bad name. I would hope that you (and any one else who has had this experience) would try to look past the person, and try to see the message that is being presented to you.

P.S. Welcome to the thread, feel free to contribute your opinions

Erik 

[crawlerdan]

one of the basic christian principles is that i shall not judge my brother, that means anyone, for any reason, and as for humble, Christ himself was not above washing the feet of beggers and women of poor virtue, Christ teaches humbleness, we need to understand tat, there are the few, or majority, of christians that ruin the name for the rest of us that call ourselves christian, i for one, am open to your thoughts and opinions, who am i to tell you that you are wrong? thats not what im about. i beleive what i do, and you, what you do. sharing that with others is great, but none of us should be here to badmouth others beleifs or veiws, if we do then we become hipocitical of our OWN beleifs.

[germ]

'Where I go YOU cannot come,' I say also to YOU at present. I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

"love one another, just as I have loved you." How much did Jesus love them? To the point of death! He also said, "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

Note, too, that Jesus stated that LOVE would be the identification of true Christians.

So, what I'm gleening from your post is that "LOVE" is the mark of a true Christian? While I don't disagree that love is a very key component of salvation, and is the major component of what Jesus has taught, I think it's a bit vague to say that it is THE mark. There are many examples of people who do not follow any of the teachings of Jesus, and are in fact quite evil, who still love. Does that mean a mass murderer who loves his child is still able to have salvation just because he has love?

Maybe, more specifically, you mean that the person "loves" God, and by loving Him, he will do as God has requested of us?

Your thoughts?

Erik 

[germ]

Obedient from the heart, making your mind over. Also, Galatians 5:16-24, "But I say, Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all. For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that YOU would like to do YOU do not do. Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires."

The law covered all of the above mention desires of the flesh. But because we no longer work for the flesh, but work along in spirit, we do not need the law. If you are being led by spirit, given to us after the death of Christ, then we don't need the law because we put forth the fruitage of the spirit. We have already given up our fleshly desires when we dedicated our lives to God, and got baptized. It's all about principles I tell you. There is a principle to be found behind each and every law and commandment from the MLC including the Ten Words, with the motivating force being Love, the first of the fruitages of the spirit. Hence, why Jesus stated Love of God and Neighbor as being the greatest because that is what moves us to action. It is in our hearts.

Let me see if i can summarize this and see if I'm understanding your point. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I understand what you've written, your saying that the actual laws are not as important as the desire to do God's will. If you love God, you will be moved by the Holy Spirit to do what is right, and the laws themselves are not the issue. Therfore, the laws do not apply.

Is that correct?

Erik

[blackdiamond]

Going back to an earlier discussion, here is another explaination for the importance of the Sabbath.

The original problem that Lucifer had in heaven was pride.  He became jealous of the worship that God received and wanted to be His equal.  The conflict between good and evil started over the issue of worship; this is why I believe that how and when I worship God is important.  I feel that the 10 commandments were given to everyone and should be followed (God doesn't change).  The point of focusing on God first is key, but that isn't the entire story.  Prior to Christ's death, the only way to be a righteous person was to follow God's Universal Law (I think God summarized them into the 10 Commandant for us) perfectly.  This is what allowed Christ to die for our sins and the reason that He had to live a sinless life on earth to fulfill His mission (He was justifed by following the law and His example was to follow the 10 Commandments).  In the garden of Eden Adam and Eve were given law(s) to follow and they didn't trust God (lack of relationship) enough to follow it and ate of the tree.  The plan was for them to follow the law through a relationship with God for eternity.  We have the same challenge today, the law convicts us of sin and we need to strive to follow it to the letter; however, because we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, it is only through His Blood that we can be saved.  We are not condemned for our sins if we accept Him as our savoir and Lord, but that doesn't give us a blank check for committing sin or not following the law.  Faith without works is dead.  The Sabbath was set apart for us to Worship God as our Creator and Lord at creation and was again stated in the 4th commandment.  It is my belief, and the SDA church, that Sunday worship is Satan's counterfeit to lead people away from the true worship of God and there will come a time in the future when it will become a salvation issue for all.  Again, I believe that anyone honestly seeking God will be convicted prior to that time of the truth, it is not a salvation issue for everyone right now, only those that understand and are convicted such as myself.  I believe that there will be people saved from all religions of the world.  In the end it is up to God to judge, thankfully He didn't leave it up to humans.

[crawlerdan]

thanks for that, the leave it to humans part, we'd
all be screwed

[BLACKDOG]

I know its a little off topic, but I thought I'd share, my dad emailed me this   I come from texas, so this has a special place in my heart

10 Commandments -- Texas Style

People here in Texas have trouble with all those shalls and shall nots
in the 10 Commandments. Folks here just aren't used to talking in those
terms. So, some folks out in west Texas got together and translated the
"King James" into "King Ranch" language: Ten Commandments, cowboy style.


Cowboy's Ten Commandments posted on the wall at Cross Trails Church, in
Fairlie, Texas.

(1) Just one God.

(2) Honor yer Ma & Pa.

(3) No telling tales or gossipin'.

(4) Git yourself to Sunday meeting.

(5) Put nothin' before God.

(6) No foolin' around with another fellow's gal.

(7) No killin'.

(8) Watch yer mouth.

(9) Don't take what ain't yers.

(10) Don't be hankerin' for yer buddy's stuff

Now that's kinda plain an' simple don't ya think?

Y'all have a good Day... Y'hear?
--

[gonzo]

My beliefs are more a long these line (real simple) thanks Blackdog.  I changed it some. I added Murder instead of Kill and made a couple of other changes.

Cowboy's Ten Commandments.

(1) Just one God.

(2) Honor yer Ma & Pa.

(3) No telling tales

(4) Git yourself to Sunday meeting.

(5) Put nothin' before God.

(6) No foolin' around with another fellow's gal.

(7) No Murderin'

(8 ) Watch yer mouth.

(9) Don't take what ain't yers.

(10) Don't be hankerin' for yer buddy's stuff

[mr4x42u]

Just wondering what your guys opinion is on those who practice a different religion..say a guy prays to budda,,or allah,,,or any other religion,,id being a christian is really the right religion and the gate way to heven then what happenes to thos who believe in the other religion??do they get to go to heaven?? 


Also how do you judge a person such as a homosexual who happens to believe in god,,lives his live to every word in the bible,,,does god still sentence that person to damnation because he was a homo??If god is so loving why send a person to damnation because of there sexuality??There has been reasearch that homos have different brain wave functions then say a normal person..if the person who is gay can't help but to love the same sex is it right,,even by gods standards to send that [person to damnation because he or she can't help to be loved by the same sex...Kind of falls out of line with the do unto others don't it??Just seems like its wrong to judge a person that way..Yet got and churches have that right??

[crawlerdan]

Just wondering what your guys opinion is on those who practice a different religion..say a guy prays to budda,,or allah,,,or any other religion,,id being a christian is really the right religion and the gate way to heven then what happenes to thos who believe in the other religion??do they get to go to heaven??


Also how do you judge a person such as a homosexual who happens to believe in god,,lives his live to every word in the bible,,,does god still sentence that person to damnation because he was a homo??If god is so loving why send a person to damnation because of there sexuality??There has been reasearch that homos have different brain wave functions then say a normal person..if the person who is gay can't help but to love the same sex is it right,,even by gods standards to send that [person to damnation because he or she can't help to be loved by the same sex...Kind of falls out of line with the do unto others don't it??Just seems like its wrong to judge a person that way..Yet got and churches have that right??

good questions, let me answer as best i can; it is my beleif that it is not our place to judge others, on a religious basis or any other, heck, my wife is "a witch" i dont judge her, i accept that she thinks in a different way, do i think that she will go to heaven if her beliefs dont change? no. it is my job to whitness the truth, and live by example.i love my wife with all my heart, so i owe her the respect of understanding, its called unconditional love, and i think its Gods greatest gift, shes not any more evil than i, just different. as far as homosexuality is conserned, if a gay man led his life to the word of the Bible, he wouldnt be gay in the first place, God calls for a union between man and woman, and gives no room for an option, i dont judge these people, i accept the fact that they are different than i and embrce their individuality, its not my place to tell them they are wrong, its Gods. read John 3; 16.... it doesnt say" except if you gay, lesbian, redneck, or drive a jeep"... it says, "and YOU will be saved.so, no, god forgives all transactions of sin, including homosexuality, and again, i dont call them wrong, God does. i hope i answered as best i could, and so that you understand. basicly, God IS love, and forgiveness, and i dont know for certain how those who are gay or of different religion will be judged, im not an expert, perse'. i just know that it is not my place to judge you for being different, it is my job to love my brother as i would myself, or better. if your gay, thats cool, im not going to distance my self from you for it, your prob. a pretty cool guy, lets go wheelen, have a good time, be cool, you know, im just not down with persicution, thats how christians should act, and thats how i do

[mr4x42u]

There is the problem,,how can a god say i have unconditional love,,yet not accept a person is gay..thats against all the good things the bible says to do..A god can give you free will,,yet reject you because a person wants to be loved,,and that love happens to come from another man or woman..Thats not unconditional love!Thats being bias or judge upon sexualit,,basicly against everything we are supposed to stand for..If you ask a gay person why there gay,,they don;t have an awnser,,there just born that was,,I'm not talking so much a bi person thats can choose,,i'm talking a full blown gay person that will only date the same sex..I'm sure they did not grow up wanting to be different,,I'm sure that did not want to say,,(I'm going to be gay when i grow up)..Yet christian will reject those people,,yet the bible says do unto others..how that right..the bible is f'd up..to reject a person with different is not right..thatsnot what humanity is supposed to be about,,thats not what god and the bible is tring to teach us..yet its ok to sentance a person to damnation..Thats not god that anyone should follow..If a god is to say I have uncondital love for every one should mean exactly that..I doubt a gay person in no longer gay when there get to heaven,,they are who they are..One more of the many reasons I say the words of the bible are bogus..
If a baby is the workings of god,,what some call a miracle,,and a person is truly born gay,,then it proves that god is not perfect,,or truly does not exist..

[BLACKDOG]

There is the problem,,how can a god say i have unconditional love,,yet not accept a person is gay..thats against all the good things the bible says to do..A god can give you free will,,yet reject you because a person wants to be loved,,and that love happens to come from another man or woman..Thats not unconditional love!Thats being bias or judge upon sexualit,,basicly against everything we are supposed to stand for..If you ask a gay person why there gay,,they don;t have an awnser,,there just born that was,,I'm not talking so much a bi person thats can choose,,i'm talking a full blown gay person that will only date the same sex..I'm sure they did not grow up wanting to be different,,I'm sure that did not want to say,,(I'm going to be gay when i grow up)..Yet christian will reject those people,,yet the bible says do unto others..how that right..the bible is f'd up..to reject a person with different is not right..thatsnot what humanity is supposed to be about,,thats not what god and the bible is tring to teach us..yet its ok to sentance a person to damnation..Thats not god that anyone should follow..If a god is to say I have uncondital love for every one should mean exactly that..I doubt a gay person in no longer gay when there get to heaven,,they are who they are..One more of the many reasons I say the words of the bible are bogus..
If a baby is the workings of god,,what some call a miracle,,and a person is truly born gay,,then it proves that god is not perfect,,or truly does not exist..

God does have unconditional love for us, and as Crawlerdan said, if someone followed the Bible to the letter, he/she wouldnt be gay.  However, due to our human nature (sin nature) no one on earth can follow the Bible to the letter.  That is why God gave his son to die for us on the cross, so that we dont have to be perfect to get into heaven.  We are to strive to be christlike, but everyone will fall short, that is the way it works.  Jesus' blood covers all sin, as long as you accept him.  If you accept Christ, you start your life anew, without sin.  You still have to pay the consequences, but it is no longer placed on your "record" so to speak.  If a gay person accepts Christ, they are still sinning, according to the Bible.  But, they will go to heaven, because Jesus has covered their sin.   I believe homosexuality is wrong, but it is not my place to judge.  If a gay guy were to want to come wheeling with me, cool   I'm met and known a few gay people, and some of them are pretty cool.  as I beleive ghandi said, the biggest thing oppseing Christianity is Christians themselves.   This is true, we are nto to judge, yet Christians are some of the most judgmental people opn earth IMO, and we will have to answer for that to God, and that wont be fun, but it is part of our human nature.    This is probably pretty sporadic, but it boils down to this

According to my beleifs, once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation.  If a person were to accept Christ, and then be gay, or turn into a mass murderer, people on earth may question a person salvation, but that is for God to decide.  If that person truly was saved, than he/she will still go to heaven, although they may have commited atrocities (the mass murderers) or disobeyed the Bible.  Theywill face the consequences of sin, be it jail time, HIV/AIDS, financial ruin, whatever the consequences may be, but that is nothing compared to what they would face had the not been saved. 

[mr4x42u]

If science is true,,and a person that is truly gay at birth,,born that way follows the bible,,,how does following the bible NOT make a person gay?Thats like saying if I Follow my owners manuel for my toyota it will never break down..There is not truth to that at all..