How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[crawlerdan]

c'mon man, no need for disrespect thats not why were here

[blackdiamond]

Here are texts from the New and Old Testament that talk about how to obtain salvation.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.  Repent!  Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.  Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.  Why will you die, O house of Israel?  For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.  Repent and live!"  NIV

Revelation 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.  He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death."  NIV

Notice that it says, "Turn away," and "overcome," rather than simply accept Christ's as your Lord and Saviour and continue on with life.

I know that the NIV version isn't always accepted as universally as the KJV or the NKJV; however, it is the easiest one for me to study and post online due to format.  I have a NKJV on order (in a similar format) for this type of discussion.

[germ]

There are so many different religions out who's to say which one is the "one" that you should follow.

There is not just "one" religion. There is one God, and he is who we worship. If you are following a church, or worshiping anyone but God, your salvation is truly in question.

I think any religion that has ever condoned killing someone for any reason is not a true religion. Defending yourself is one thing but to send out your lets say Knights in shinning armor or your jihad army to coerce, conquer and convert is wrong and not what any god would want or tolerate.

What your seeing here (and describing) is man's faulty nature, and using Religion as an excuse to commit sin. The Bible does not condone or encourage the use of Religion as a means to wage war on or against anyone. Unfortunatly there are those who will use the name of religion to justify their actions to others.

Don't give me this BS that it's in gods plan to force anyone to do anything

Nope, your right. God  has given us free choice, and will not force you to follow him. He certainly encourages you too worship him, but he will not force it. The only consequence is that when it is time for him to judge us all, he has told us what we need to do to gain salvation, and clearly told us what will give us damnation. It is your choice.

don't tell me what you think is right from reading the bible, I have read it and couldn't continue because it seems that every other page contradicts what the other page says. On top of that the way I read some stuff it can be interrupted different too... I may not be the most versed in the bible but I do know what a contradiction is, and the bible is littered with them. I gave up years ago trying to make head or tails of it but do follow the parts that are the important....... the 10 commandments

The Bible can be difficult to read thru if you read along like it is a novel. Not all scriptures are in chronological order, and there are references to the old testiment, which can be hard to follow. The way I study the bible is that I read one section at a time, and use the references in the center to go to other texts that are about the same subject, and see what the other authors have written. This gives the subject perspective from different points of view. I also use a "Study Bible", which has foot notes to help explain the texts I'm reading, and leads to other texts that help explain things.

I hope you don't give up on reading the Bible, as it is a rich source of guidance and understanding. Try my suggestions above, and see if it makes it a bit easier. I hope it will.

I guide my life not some pontiff that dictates what he/she thinks I should or should not do. I have one question, if the highest member of your church demanded that you stop wheelin' because you are destroying gods land would you stop?

I do not lead my spiritual life based on what man (pontif, priest, preacher, deacon or anyone else for that matter) says. I do however utilize those whom I have respect for as sounding boards, and as a way to increase or expand my insight or knowlege. I ALWAYS take their comments and compare that to what the bible says, and follow the scriptures. As for 4-wheelin, It would have to come from God to get me to stop. If (s)he said stop, then I would without question.

Sorry, I have one more question for you and this would be something that a certain religion already has deemed as murder in a basic since: do you use a condom, birth control of any kind, abortion? If you do you're a killer and will suffer for it.

This is a very tough question, and to be honest, I don't have a good answer. I certainly cannot answer for the church or anyone else for that matter. I personally feel that there is good reason to use birth control, and it should be used appropriatly. As far as abortion goes I can certainly see the benefit and usefullness of it, and I think the definition of "killer" also depends on your definition of "when does life begin" This is a whole separate topic which could probably fill another 10-15 pages of posts. I do not think that either option should be used as a way to escape the consequences of irresponsible behavior, and it should not be taken lightly, but I also see the usefullness of both options, and think they should be available.

I feel I will be judged not on what church I attended but on me, what I did in my life and the decisions I made. I may mess up but if everyone was condemned on messing up here and there nobody would make it to heaven or whatever it is truely called

Your right. Judgment will be on your relationship with God, and did you follow his commandments. You don't get any specific credit for which church you attend. As I've posted in the past, there will be people from every church who make it to heaven, and there will probably be folks who have never attended church who are there as well. Read you bible, and you'll see what it takes to get there.

As for messing up, if we weren't allowed to mess up, I'd be leading the group along the four wheeling trail to Hell. I've made many mistakes, and though I try not to now, I still "mess up" All I can do, is recognize it, and ask for forgiveness, which God grants me each and every time. My end of the bargain is to try and do better next time, and hopefully not make the same mistake twice.

Don't try and draw me into a fight over this because it won't work, you'll just get more of what I feel and nothing more

Wouldn't think of trying to draw you into a fight over it. I'd be happy to discuss your and my viewpoints rationally anytime. Not willin to fight about it though.

I won't fight over who gets to go and who doesn't, it's not my or your decision as to who gets there and who doesn't. If you're gay it's your choice and if god deems it unworthy then you'll have to deal with it.

Well said.

Please take my comments as thier intended. Not an argument, not judgement, not meant to stir the hornets nest. Just My thoughts on your comments.

Erik

[blackdiamond]

I figured that I should post my feelings on abortion.  I serve a God that gave me the power of choice and who am I to take it away from someone else.  I am strongly oposed to abortion; however, I wouldn't treat anyone poorly because of their choice.  It isn't my job to judge and it is also none of my business.

I heard a quote on a TV show that made me think a bit.  The doctor was asked to perform an abortion and wasn't sure how he felt about it.  He had performed on while in school/residency and never felt good about it.  He said that he didn't know exactly when life began, but he did know when it ended.

As for birth control.  God gave man dominion over the earth, it is our duty to be responsible and not over populate the earth just because we can.

[crawlerdan]

I AGREE, I THINK THAT ABORTION IS HORRABLE, BUT JUST AS ANYTHING ELSE IN LIFE, IT HAS ITS PLACE, IU JUST DONT AGREE WITH IT UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES

[gonzo]

I figured that I should post my feelings on abortion. I serve a God that gave me the power of choice and who am I to take it away from someone else. I am strongly oposed to abortion; however, I wouldn't treat anyone poorly because of their choice. It isn't my job to judge and it is also none of my business.

I heard a quote on a TV show that made me think a bit. The doctor was asked to perform an abortion and wasn't sure how he felt about it. He had performed on while in school/residency and never felt good about it. He said that he didn't know exactly when life began, but he did know when it ended.

As for birth control. God gave man dominion over the earth, it is our duty to be responsible and not over populate the earth just because we can.

This topic should actually be addressed on separate thread, but simply put I believe in choice.  Most people would say then you believe in abortion......no I believe in choice.  I may have enough kids to start my own off road competion team (including the pit crew), but never have even considered abortion as an option for any of them.  I do believe in choice.

[blackdiamond]

I agree with Gonzo

Someone could start another thread to discuss this if they wanted.

[blackdiamond]

To get us somewhat back on topic, I mentioned earlier that I believe that everyone will see God and acknowledge His power and justice.  Here are a couple of texts to support that statement:

Romans 14:10-11 "You, then, why do you judge your brothers?  Or why do you look down on your brother?  For we will all stand before God's judgement seat.  It is written, 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"  NIV

Philippians 2:9-11 "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."  NIV

Isaiah 45:22-25 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.  By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.  They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.'  All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.  But in the Lord all descendants or Israel will be found righteous and will exult."  NIV

The bottom line is that we have no reason to judge or look down on others, we all will answer to God face to face and acknowledge His justice and power.

[crawlerdan]

thats what ive been trying to comunicate, word for word, thanks for the quotes!

[BLACKDOG]

The bottom line is that we have no reason to judge or look down on others, we all will answer to God face to face and acknowledge His justice and power.

But we as Christians do have a responsiblity to serve and encourage others to follow Christ.  unfortunately, this is often interpreted as judgment and looking down upon people. 

[crawlerdan]

it has to be done correctly, and, some people insult others by downsizing the others beleifs. i think that living by example is a good way to get others to wonder what "makes us tick" and this is how i whitness to others., but i have a different personality than others may

[BLACKDOG]

it has to be done correctly, and, some people insult others by downsizing the others beleifs. i think that living by example is a good way to get others to wonder what "makes us tick" and this is how i whitness to others., but i have a different personality than others may

exactly how I try to view it.  I have to admit, I am good at sticking my foot in my mouth, and If someone is wrong (not if I think someone is wrong, but if they are) I will tell people so, but I feel that I lead a good example.  I also enjoy talking to people and learning about their beliefs, which enoucrages them to open up as well

[blackdiamond]

I believe that it is our responsibility to look for opportunities to tell people what Christ has done for us.  Some of the things that I have discussed (The Sabbath Saturday) is too much "doctrine" to bring anyone to Christ.

A group of my friends from church (also previously from school and now work) started a group/program called FNL (Friday Night Live) as a outreach group to reach the unchurched.  They have sponsored several Christian concert series that were held in coffee shops and such.  We had programs on Friday night at the church that were much less formal that the regular program.  The first season they did several TV knock-offs such as a parable done in the style of The Apprentice.  FNL didn't really catch the spark outside the church that they/we were looking for, but the youth in the church really enjoy it.  So SWAT (serving with all talents & FNL service department) was born.  Our activities ranged from cleaning up an old mans yard (2+ tons of trash and we just made a dint), passed out stamps and a payday bar for president's day at the post office and we passed out free water bottles at the local veterans parade.  We always include a simple card that say something like You have been served, this is our way of showing God's love in a practical way.  The card includes contact information for the church and an offer of assistance where needed.  SWAT is only a few months old, but I think we will soon be recognized in the community.  The group is also the lead for our church's softball team so we are getting the name FNL out even more.  The goal is simple to show people that God does care and nothing more.

Off Topic again, but I thought I would provide some ideas on how to share God's love.

[mr4x42u]

how do you guys feel about all the christian t.v that smothered all over every other channel..Over kill.??

Do people really believe that stuff about being saved,,falling onto the floor and doing the shakes after being saved..I really don't believe that many people fall for something like that..

[BLACKDOG]

how do you guys feel about all the christian t.v that smothered all over every other channel..Over kill.??

Do I feel that it is overkill that God's word is getting out? no, but I don't like most of the "televangelists" out there today. Its not my job to question sincerity or salvation, but I have a real problem with people who seem to be asking for $$ most of the time. 

Do people really believe that stuff about being saved,,falling onto the floor and doing the shakes after being saved..I really don't believe that many people fall for something like that..
People do fall for that, but I've never seen it.  There is no outward pysical appearance when you are saved.  It is a matter of the spirit, and unless I did it wrong (I know I didnt) you dont fall down.  I guess you could, but that isn't a mark of being saved.

[mr4x42u]

I saw a show on t.v this morning,,,tammy faye baker is making a comeback,,,if god is real,,them is is mighty pissed off at that woman,,she looks like !

[blackdiamond]

Sadly, I would agree that many, not all, of the Christian TV programs are in it more for the money that for spreading the Gospel.  I will even admit to watching on occasion for entertainment.  This is another prime example of how Satan gets everyone confused about what is right and what is wrong.  I have found that you can always learn something positive from the programs if you are willing to listen.

I would agree with BD that falling on the ground and speaking in tongues isn't a sign of the Holy Spirit.  There is no evidence of falling on the ground "in the spirit" in the Bible.  There is a story in the Bible about the Apostles teaching the people (Gentiles) and each one of them was able to speak to a different language group, even though they had never spoken the languages before.  I believe that something similar to this is what speaking in tongues really is.

[gonzo]

Sadly, I would agree that many, not all, of the Christian TV programs are in it more for the money that for spreading the Gospel. I will even admit to watching on occasion for entertainment. This is another prime example of how Satan gets everyone confused about what is right and what is wrong. I have found that you can always learn something positive from the programs if you are willing to listen.

The lady with pink hair who sits in a giant gold chair causes me to wonder about the educational value of that program.  Unless you concider the value of "what to avoid" as a lesson.

[crawlerdan]

The lady with pink hair who sits in a giant gold chair causes me to wonder about the educational value of that program. Unless you concider the value of "what to avoid" as a lesson.

ive seen her, looks like my grandma, but hes makes a good point. it make it hard for people to take us seriously when this may have been thier first experiance with christianity.

[germ]

i think that living by example is a good way to get others to wonder what "makes us tick" and this is how i whitness to others.,

I agree, this is the best way to witness to others about God's Love. I have an intense feeling to run away when people get "holier than thou". If we can get a non-believer to see how we interact with others and conduct our lives, it may spur them to look at their live and wish to make some changes. This is the opportunity to tell them about God. Trying to beat it into thier head just makes them run away.

I also enjoy talking to people and learning about their beliefs, which enoucrages them to open up as well

I totally agree. If you can get someone to open up about their beliefs, it is easier to find common ground, and from there sharing your viewpoints are much easier. It is not our job to change their beliefs, that is God and the Holy Spirits job. Our job is to show them, largley by example, God's love.

Some of the things that I have discussed (The Sabbath Saturday) is too much "doctrine" to bring anyone to Christ.

I have never felt that "Doctrine" will get  you a believer. Love will bring someone to Christ.

Erik 

[germ]

how do you guys feel about all the christian t.v that smothered all over every other channel..Over kill.??

Do people really believe that stuff about being saved,,falling onto the floor and doing the shakes after being saved..I really don't believe that many people fall for something like that..

IMHO, its a bunch of smoke and mirrors. God speaks to us in a quiet, still voice. Falling to the ground and having siezures is not what the Holy Spirit is about, but it's good for ratings. I've met some who have been to these events, who felt that the Holy Spirit was with them, but just as many told me they were annoyed by all the theatrics. I think pimping for money all the time also detracts from any sincerity they may really have.

Sitting quietly by a stream opens me up to Gods influence much more than these shows. Personally, I avoid them like the Plaugue. There are a few shows out there that are decent. To be honest, I don't watch much TV anymore. Kids, truck projects, reading and sleep seem to be much more important than TV.

I saw a show on t.v this morning,,,tammy faye baker is making a comeback,,,if god is real,,them is is mighty pissed off at that woman,,she looks like !

yea, she looks "rode hard and put away wet". Someone needs to teach her the word "subtle".

This is another prime example of how Satan gets everyone confused about what is right and what is wrong.  I have found that you can always learn something positive from the programs if you are willing to listen

Well said. I personally can't get past all the theatrics myself. It is such a distraction from the message, that I can't spend more than 3-5 seconds watching before my stomach turns and I have to change the channel. I suppose if I could get past that small point, I could probably learn something.

[gonzo]

I have never felt that "Doctrine" will get you a believer. Love will bring someone to Christ.

Erik

I'm not from Missouri, but showing me is the best way to convince me to see things your way.  Most of the time, in my experience, the show me individual is only in the I will show you mode when they are at a church or church activity.  Outside of the "church" environment they are a totally different individual.  It's kind of like a 5 foot 9 inch, 260 pound doctor telling me I need to lose weight.  It doesn't mean much to me, and makes me even more suspicious.

[germ]

Most of the time, in my experience, the show me individual is only in the I will show you mode when they are at a church or church activity.  Outside of the "church" environment they are a totally different individual.  It's kind of like a 5 foot 9 inch, 260 pound doctor telling me I need to lose weight.  It doesn't mean much to me, and makes me even more suspicious.

I'd have to agree with you to a point. As an example, I think everyone who has been posting on this thread has been a pretty good example. We have not judged or been "holier than thou" that I can see. We have been pretty consistent with talking about the same message. I don't believe any of us have tried to "cram" anything down someones throat.

Granted, this is on a message board, and we are not sitting and talking face to face, but I think the general principal applies and is valid.

There are quite a few people who will be very different while at church than they are away from church. I think these folks are posers, and don't live by Gods instruction.

Erik

[gonzo]

I'd have to agree with you to a point. As an example, I think everyone who has been posting on this thread has been a pretty good example. We have not judged or been "holier than thou" that I can see. We have been pretty consistent with talking about the same message. I don't believe any of us have tried to "cram" anything down someones throat.



Granted, this is on a message board, and we are not sitting and talking face to face, but I think the general principal applies and is valid.

There are quite a few people who will be very different while at church than they are away from church. I think these folks are posers, and don't live by Gods instruction.

Erik

I haven't considered the responses on this thread to be "cramming" anything down my throat.  Actually I have been very impressed with the amount of knowledge and information exchanged.  Most of the discussion has been very civil and respectful.  That in itself is very impressive.

[BLACKDOG]

I have never felt that "Doctrine" will get  you a believer. Love will bring someone to Christ.

Erik 

I forget who it is, I'll see if my sunday school teacher remembers this weekend, but there is a guy who's church services are aired on TV, but he is the real thing, and his big saying is, he's not gonna make it harder to join his church that it is to get saved.  I think that is a true example right there.  A lot of churchs have a bunch of rules to follow, and agreements to sign, where God will take you just as you are, as long as you open your heart to Him.

I'm not from Missouri, but showing me is the best way to convince me to see things your way.  Most of the time, in my experience, the show me individual is only in the I will show you mode when they are at a church or church activity.  Outside of the "church" environment they are a totally different individual.  It's kind of like a 5 foot 9 inch, 260 pound doctor telling me I need to lose weight.  It doesn't mean much to me, and makes me even more suspicious.

this is one of the things that bothers me the most  It really bothers me when I see a Christian acting different in and out of church.  I am who I am, kinda a screwu, but people can expect me to be the same in church or out of church.  I think that is another thing that turns people off to God, is when His people go to church, and are seen on sunday (or sat) doing the holier than thou, prim and proper thing, and then on monday, its the same old thing.  It also really bothers me when people are looked down upon by others for what they wear or drive to church.  We have a guy who rides his harley to church on sundays, and a few people were bothered by that.  My little brother wears shorts to church, nice ones, with a nice polo or button up shirt, and he's gotten scolded once, but he turned it around and told the lady "If God doesnt want me to wear shorts to church, he'll let me know.  I think he's just glad I'm here "  That is the attitude I think we shoudl have as Christians, let people see that, and they will come more often

[germ]

I haven't considered the responses on this thread to be "cramming" anything down my throat.  Actually I have been very impressed with the amount of knowledge and information exchanged.  Most of the discussion has been very civil and respectful.  That in itself is very impressive.

I'm glad you agree, and I'm also glad that you're participating (as well as everone else for that matter). I hope everone continues to be civil and respectful.

Erik

[blackdiamond]

Someone posted above that a preacher said that he wouldn't make it harder to join his church than it was to be saved.  This is a great attitude in my opinion.  I look at it as being baptized into the family of God rather than into a church.

Being baptized isn't a statement that you know everything about God that you will ever know, it is a commitment to God to spend time with Him, letting him lead and direct you into truth.  I feel that people should be baptized when they accept Christ as their Saviour and not when they agree with/understand all of the doctrines of a specific church.  Church membership and baptism should be different in my opinion.

As for acting differently on Sabbath, we shouldn't treat other people any differently; however, I do think that the act of worshiping God as my creator that I should do things a bit differently on Sabbath.  I'm not saying that it is required to wear a suite to church to worship, but I do think that we should make an effort to show respect to our God.

In the Bible when it talked about "fearing" God, I have been told that in the Greek/Hebrew it is more along the lines of the feeling of fear/respect/awe that you would have if the President (not any specific one) of the USA walked into your office rather than being scared.  Most people understand the concept of respecting people of great authority (say a formal dinner at the White House).  I think that going to church should be a similar thing since we are going into God's house.

[BLACKDOG]

Someone posted above that a preacher said that he wouldn't make it harder to join his church than it was to be saved.  This is a great attitude in my opinion.  I look at it as being baptized into the family of God rather than into a church.

Being baptized isn't a statement that you know everything about God that you will ever know, it is a commitment to God to spend time with Him, letting him lead and direct you into truth.  I feel that people should be baptized when they accept Christ as their Saviour and not when they agree with/understand all of the doctrines of a specific church.  Church membership and baptism should be different in my opinion.

That is one of the things I disagree with in our churches covenant, is that to be a member of the church, you need to be baptized, or come from another church.  Baptism is directed by God, but it doesnt mean that you aren a christian if you dont get baptized.  I disagree with more than that in the covenant, but I dont wanna get of topic

As for acting differently on Sabbath, we shouldn't treat other people any differently; however, I do think that the act of worshiping God as my creator that I should do things a bit differently on Sabbath.  I'm not saying that it is required to wear a suite to church to worship, but I do think that we should make an effort to show respect to our God.

In the Bible when it talked about "fearing" God, I have been told that in the Greek/Hebrew it is more along the lines of the feeling of fear/respect/awe that you would have if the President (not any specific one) of the USA walked into your office rather than being scared.  Most people understand the concept of respecting people of great authority (say a formal dinner at the White House).  I think that going to church should be a similar thing since we are going into God's house.

I too feel this way, however I believe people make too big of a deal of it.  I think God would be happier having a person in church in raggedy old clothes rather than not there at all.  Sometimes it seems as if people think a person needs to be dressed a certain way to approach a church.   

[germ]

Hey y'all, I just found this. some interesting reading....

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050627/D8B04H280.html

I wonder which version of the 10 commandments they are displaying?

Erik

[mr4x42u]

How do you feel about states putting up the 10 copmmandments in court houses..I feel its wrong..I don't want to see that on the wall..it could very well be offensive to some..I feel it goes beyond boundries of separation of church and state..