How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[BLACKDOG]

This is dangerous to do, simply because pulling single verses out of the Bible can be taken out of context.  Many of the veres below are taken out of context.  I probably havent covered them all well, but I did my best, using biblegateway.com an onlline NIV Bible.

just for those of you who quote bible scriptures,,I thnk its really point less,,,Why you ask,,For there are many scriptures that arenot 100% correct,,how can that be you ask,,,well the bible is not really sure if its coming or going..

Can you see god???  every one I talk to says no,,I feel if he is real then he will show himself,,however
in   judges 1:19  "I have seen god face to face,and my life is preserved"

Yet in genesis 32:30 it says  "No man hath seen god at any time"    HUH,,how can that be??

This one is very simple.  If nothing else, you can view the Bible as a history book.  You can view it as incorrect if you want, but this is the same as saying in 1865, no one has driven a car.  the book of Judges was written AFTER the book of Genesis, so it is completely feasible and uncontradictory for that to be written

Revenge,,we all have wanted it at one point or another,,so how  does the bible feel about it?
exodus 21:23-25 thou shalt give life for life,,eye for eye,,tooth for tooth,,hand for hand,,foot for foot,,burning for burning,,wound for wound,,stripe for stripe..

WAIT,,  matthew 5:39 says   "ye resist evil,but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek,,turn to him the other also".
Aint that a pregnant dog,,just when you thought you were going to get revenge..

This is also simple.  The first verse is not a verse on Revenge, it is a verse guiding punishment.  The verses surrounding it go on to describe punishment laws for the Jewish leaders to follow.  THe second verse is Jesus coaching people on how to act, in order to win people to Christ, and the example they are to give.  The veres after that also are descriptive of the same.


so when your dead your dead right??wrong..
job 7:9  "he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more"..
NOT,,  John 5:28-29  "the hour is coming,in wich all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,and shall come fourth"..
Ok that was a trick question,,so what is it,,will or will I not come up from the grave,,the bible has no clue..

The first verse is a man speaking Job, who has been stripped of everhting he owned, and is speaking out of despair.  The next chapter is a scolding from one of his friends, for speaking in such ways
Job 7:1-21 1 "Does not man have hard service on earth?
      Are not his days like those of a hired man?

   2 Like a slave longing for the evening shadows,
      or a hired man waiting eagerly for his wages,

   3 so I have been allotted months of futility,
      and nights of misery have been assigned to me.

   4 When I lie down I think, 'How long before I get up?'
      The night drags on, and I toss till dawn.

   5 My body is clothed with worms and scabs,
      my skin is broken and festering.

   6 "My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle,
      and they come to an end without hope.

   7 Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath;
      my eyes will never see happiness again.

   8 The eye that now sees me will see me no longer;
      you will look for me, but I will be no more.

   9 As a cloud vanishes and is gone,
      so he who goes down to the grave [a] does not return.

   10 He will never come to his house again;
      his place will know him no more.

   11 "Therefore I will not keep silent;
      I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit,
      I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

   12 Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep,
      that you put me under guard?

   13 When I think my bed will comfort me
      and my couch will ease my complaint,

   14 even then you frighten me with dreams
      and terrify me with visions,

   15 so that I prefer strangling and death,
      rather than this body of mine.

   16 I despise my life; I would not live forever.
      Let me alone; my days have no meaning.

   17 "What is man that you make so much of him,
      that you give him so much attention,

   18 that you examine him every morning
      and test him every moment?

   19 Will you never look away from me,
      or let me alone even for an instant?

   20 If I have sinned, what have I done to you,
      O watcher of men?
      Why have you made me your target?
      Have I become a burden to you?

   21 Why do you not pardon my offenses
      and forgive my sins?
      For I will soon lie down in the dust;
      you will search for me, but I will be no more."

The scolding
Job 8:1-22  1 Then Bildad the Shuhite replied:
   2 "How long will you say such things?
      Your words are a blustering wind.

   3 Does God pervert justice?
      Does the Almighty pervert what is right?

   4 When your children sinned against him,
      he gave them over to the penalty of their sin.

   5 But if you will look to God
      and plead with the Almighty,

   6 if you are pure and upright,
      even now he will rouse himself on your behalf
      and restore you to your rightful place.

   7 Your beginnings will seem humble,
      so prosperous will your future be.

   8 "Ask the former generations
      and find out what their fathers learned,

   9 for we were born only yesterday and know nothing,
      and our days on earth are but a shadow.

   10 Will they not instruct you and tell you?
      Will they not bring forth words from their understanding?

   11 Can papyrus grow tall where there is no marsh?
      Can reeds thrive without water?

   12 While still growing and uncut,
      they wither more quickly than grass.

   13 Such is the destiny of all who forget God;
      so perishes the hope of the godless.

   14 What he trusts in is fragile [a] ;
      what he relies on is a spider's web.

   15 He leans on his web, but it gives way;
      he clings to it, but it does not hold.

   16 He is like a well-watered plant in the sunshine,
      spreading its shoots over the garden;

   17 it entwines its roots around a pile of rocks
      and looks for a place among the stones.

   18 But when it is torn from its spot,
      that place disowns it and says, 'I never saw you.'

   19 Surely its life withers away,
      and from the soil other plants grow.

   20 "Surely God does not reject a blameless man
      or strengthen the hands of evildoers.

   21 He will yet fill your mouth with laughter
      and your lips with shouts of joy.

   22 Your enemies will be clothed in shame,
      and the tents of the wicked will be no more."


The second however, is descriptive of the Second Coming of the Lord,when Everyone who is saved will be taken to heaven to live with Jesus forever, also known as the Rapture

This one I found interesting,,the bible on incest,,so right or wrong to marry your family member??

deuteronomy 27:22  "cursed be he that lieth with his sister,,the daughter of his father,or the daughter of this mother"..
leviticus  20:17 "and if a man shall take his sister,his fathers daughter,or mothers daughter,,,it is a wicked thing..
But if your on gods good side he will make up the ruls as he goes..what was gods reaction to abraham who married his sister,,his fathers daughter??
genesis 17:15-16  "And god said unto abraham,,as for sara thy wife..I bless her and give thee a son also of her"


Incest is wrong.  This may help the context for the reference of Sarah being Abrahams sister
Gen. 12:10-13 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."

I think its pretty sad to see so many mistakes in a book thats supposed to be so perfect,,,and its no wonder so many that follow the faith molest kids,,and murder there familys while hiding behind this book and god...SAD Just plain sad..

bd, supermat, germ, and anyone else, feel free to jump in, I'm not sure if I answered these well enough

[germ]

Nope, I think you did it exactly right! Good Job. Context is an important factor, and not one of the points I hit on in my reply earlier.

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

So what are the practical ways we can keep the Sabbath?
-Go to church "It was Jesus's custom to go to the Synagogue on the Sabbath" Luke 4:16
-Try to focus on the goodness of God, and all the blessings you have recieved.
-Take time to read the scriptures, and other texts that lead us to Him.
-Fellowship with family, church and friends.
-Service: Feed the poor, visit the sick, Help the needy (Remember it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath)
-Nature: As mentioned before, Nature is Gods "other" book. Go for a hike, go wheeling, get out and see the natural beauty that God has created for us to enjoy.


Erik

This is what happens when I think, but I read through some of what you folks say you do on ther sabbath (sat) and I looked at this list right here, and then I compared what I do on Sat.  Pretty much the ontly thing different  is that Idont g to church, and I dont necessarily read my Bible   I attend church on sunday, a service and sunday school.  On sat. I am usually outside.  We go to the lake, ride jetskis, go camping and hiking, mabye some wheeling. My girlfriend, family, and most of my friends are christians, most go to the same church I do, and we are usually hangin out, at least some of us.  I am an Eagle Scout, and while too old to participate as a scout anymore, I still accompany my brother's troop on many of their service projects.   I guess my question is, I do most of what the SDA members on this boar do on Sat.  Am I essentially worshiping on Sat when I do this?  I know I dont go to church on Sat. but a couple of you said that you do not go to church every Sat. (not criticizing or anything) so somedas we are doing the exct same thing. ?? I'm not sure if this is a questio or statement, so thoughts ae welcome

[germ]

This is what happens when I think, but I read through some of what you folks say you do on ther sabbath (sat) and I looked at this list right here, and then I compared what I do on Sat. Pretty much the ontly thing different is that Idont g to church, and I dont necessarily read my Bible I attend church on sunday, a service and sunday school. On sat. I am usually outside. We go to the lake, ride jetskis, go camping and hiking, mabye some wheeling. My girlfriend, family, and most of my friends are christians, most go to the same church I do, and we are usually hangin out, at least some of us. I am an Eagle Scout, and while too old to participate as a scout anymore, I still accompany my brother's troop on many of their service projects. I guess my question is, I do most of what the SDA members on this boar do on Sat. Am I essentially worshiping on Sat when I do this? I know I dont go to church on Sat. but a couple of you said that you do not go to church every Sat. (not criticizing or anything) so somedas we are doing the exct same thing. ?? I'm not sure if this is a questio or statement, so thoughts ae welcome

I think you've got it!  It sounds to me from what you've described, that you are keeping the Sabbath, but may not have recognized it. While I think God would prefer for us to go to Church on Sabbath (as was his custom), I'm hard pressed to say that it is a salvation issue. I try and attend as often as possible, but I too have to work on the Sabbath sometimes (I'm a PA, and work in an ER every other saturday).

I think probably the salient point is that we do not conduct buisness on the Sabbath, as it is a day of rest, and not a day of commerce.

Erik

[BLACKDOG]

I think you've got it!  It sounds to me from what you've described, that you are keeping the Sabbath, but may not have recognized it. While I think God would prefer for us to go to Church on Sabbath (as was his custom), I'm hard pressed to say that it is a salvation issue. I try and attend as often as possible, but I too have to work on the Sabbath sometimes (I'm a PA, and work in an ER every other saturday).

I think probably the salient point is that we do not conduct buisness on the Sabbath, as it is a day of rest, and not a day of commerce.

Erik

I have another question for discussion to add, according to your last statement then.  Is it wrong to go shopping, or out to eat on the Sabbath?  because by going to a store or resturant, are you causing a person to stumble because he/she is workin gon the sabbath, and you are part of the reason that he/she is working?  Or should you just go eat or shop at a place that doesnt have christians working for them?

[blackdiamond]

BD,  In my opinion the difference between what you do on Sabbath and what I do on Sabbath, with the exception of church, may be our motivation.  I will admit that my focus on Sabbath isn't always on Christ (I am human and make mistakes like everyone else), but that is the reason for the things that I do or don't do.  Since we are saved by grace and not works (keep in mind that faith without works is dead) doing the right things without doing it for Him isn't keeping the Sabbath.  I would agree that you may be keeping the Sabbath in action, but not in spirit because Christ hasn't convicted you, yet, that you should be keeping the Sabbath (Saturday).

As for what I do or don't do on Sabbath, it is a very difficult area because Adventist vary in practice quite a bit.  I try to avoid filling up with gas on the Sabbath, don't make a habit of eating out, don't watch non Christian videos/DVDs, doing yard work, etc... In my opinion, there isn't a difference between me causing a Christian vs. a non Christian to work on the Sabbath.  It is very easy to become legalistic and lose the point of the Sabbath (it happens in the SDA church unfortunately).  For example, is it OK to get gas if you pay at the pump and don't go inside?  Or how about purchasing tickets to the zoo on Friday and then going on Sabbath (my family went to the zoo on Sabbath a lot as a kid), or what about ordering things on-line when the store is closed and won't process the order until Monday.  Do you see how easy it is to become legalistic?  The bottom line is that Christ has to convict you about what is OK to do on the Sabbath, it is a personal thing based on you study of God's Word.  The key is to be focused on Him rather than worldly things.

At the risk of muddying the waters more, a group from my church spent a couple of hours on a Sabbath afternoon cleaning up a old guys yard that couldn't do it for himself, we hauled away over two tons of trash.  None of us would do this type of labor in our own yards on Sabbath, but in this case we were doing to serve God by helping man.  Afterwords our group had mixed opinions and it sparked a long Bible study (that I reference above) to try and see what the Bible said.  Our only conclusion is that there are guidelines, but no set rules, it is between you and God.

[germ]

Is it wrong to go shopping, or out to eat on the Sabbath?  because by going to a store or resturant, are you causing a person to stumble because he/she is workin gon the sabbath, and you are part of the reason that he/she is working?

Technically yes it is wrong for the exact reason you mention. By us going out to eat or shopping, we are doing 2 things: 1) buying and selling, and 2) causing our "manservant and maidservant" to work. That is why God has requested us to prepare on Friday, before the Sabbath so that we don't have to go shopping or out to eat. Jesus talked about pulling your oxen from the ditch as an urgent need to "work" on the Sabbath, which he said was acceptable. In an earlier post, I had mentioned that in cases of urgency, it is not unacceptable to do this, but we should do everything possible to avoid it when possible.

Or should you just go eat or shop at a place that doesnt have christians working for them?

    Very clever!

It's about us and our salvation, not them, although we should do our best to teach them.


Hope that clarify's some...
Erik  

[germ]

BD, In my opinion the difference between what you do on Sabbath and what I do on Sabbath, with the exception of church, may be our motivation. I will admit that my focus on Sabbath isn't always on Christ (I am human and make mistakes like everyone else), but that is the reason for the things that I do or don't do. Since we are saved by grace and not works (keep in mind that faith without works is dead) doing the right things without doing it for Him isn't keeping the Sabbath. I would agree that you may be keeping the Sabbath in action, but not in spirit because Christ hasn't convicted you, yet, that you should be keeping the Sabbath (Saturday).

As for what I do or don't do on Sabbath, it is a very difficult area because Adventist vary in practice quite a bit. I try to avoid filling up with gas on the Sabbath, don't make a habit of eating out, don't watch non Christian videos/DVDs, doing yard work, etc... In my opinion, there isn't a difference between me causing a Christian vs. a non Christian to work on the Sabbath. It is very easy to become legalistic and lose the point of the Sabbath (it happens in the SDA church unfortunately). For example, is it OK to get gas if you pay at the pump and don't go inside? Or how about purchasing tickets to the zoo on Friday and then going on Sabbath (my family went to the zoo on Sabbath a lot as a kid), or what about ordering things on-line when the store is closed and won't process the order until Monday. Do you see how easy it is to become legalistic? The bottom line is that Christ has to convict you about what is OK to do on the Sabbath, it is a personal thing based on you study of God's Word. The key is to be focused on Him rather than worldly things.

Good points! I think the answer lies in prayer. We need to repeadedly pray for guidance on this issue, and Jesus will provide the conviction for what is right. (this is also a note to self, 'cause I need to do this more myself!)

Erik

[blackdiamond]

What I am about to post can create some antagonism (germ touched on this earlier).  Please keep in mind that this is not directed at any individual and isn't meant to judge people, only systems of belief.  This belief was around long before the SDA church (Martin Luther) so it is also not unique to us.

The SDA church believes that the Catholic system, led by the Pope, will be the catalyst that starts the mark of the beast.  The information that I have send BD goes into great detail and the links that I have posted provide great information as well.  With that in mind, watch this:

The official title of the Pope is "VICARIVS FILII DEI" which means "Vicar of the Son of God."  If you add up the numbers using the Latin numbers it totals 666.  As a side note, I have seen how this works for nearly every language but I have not found it documented quite yet.  Also the literal meaning is, "the substitute for the Son of God."

VICARIVS - substituting for, or in place of
FILII - means son
DEI - means God

Here is the link: http://www.remnantofgod.org/666.htm

What this means is you have a position in a religious system that claims to be in place of Christ and they have changed the commandments and the day of worship.  If you read Bible you know that nobody can take the place of Christ and that one of the signs of the beast is that they seek to change times and laws (Sabbath day and Commandments).  You will also note that the dragon is either scarlet or red, does that sound familiar?

I know that this sounds crazy, but you can actually watch history follow the prophecy's in Daniel and Revelation and they are very clear.  If they didn't have proof that the books were written thousands of years ago, it would be unbelievable because it is too amazing for someone to think up on their own.

[germ]

Here is the math to support this:

V=5
I=1
C=100
A=0
R=0
I=1
U=5
S=0
total 112

F=0
I=1
L=50
I=1
I=1
total 53

D=500
E=0
I=1
Total 501

112+53+501=666 The number of the beast

[BLACKDOG]

Good points! I think the answer lies in prayer. We need to repeadedly pray for guidance on this issue, and Jesus will provide the conviction for what is right. (this is also a note to self, 'cause I need to do this more myself!)

Erik

I think this is what it boils down too.  We have had discussions in our Friday night Bible study that really come down to the fact that you have to pray for conviction in certain areas.  Also, each individual will be convicted in different things by different ways.  Jesus will provide his guidance, and it is up to us to follow it.

[blackdiamond]

I think this is what it boils down too. We have had discussions in our Friday night Bible study that really come down to the fact that you have to pray for conviction in certain areas. Also, each individual will be convicted in different things by different ways. Jesus will provide his guidance, and it is up to us to follow it.

I think I agree with you, but let me clarify my thoughts a bit.  I do believe that not everyone will be convicted of the exact same things at the same time, this is because we do not all have the same relationship level with God.  Some of us are still "babies" and others are farther along.  I do, however, that in the end that is one absolute set of truth(s) that we are all striving for and being convicted of.  This is where the Holy Spirit becomes so important.  I feel that we should all pray for conviction for where we are doing, or going, wrong.  We all have things to learn and growing to do.

To illustrate my point of different level relationships with God, take Abraham and Isaac.  Just think of the relationship that Abraham must have had to be convicted that he should sacrifice his son.  I hope Abraham is the right guy, I'm thinking too hard and confusing myself on the names, but you all know the story.

As long as we have an active relationship with God and are receptive to what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us, not ignoring things because they are outside of our comfort zones, I believe that we have salvation.  I also believe that anybody that is honestly searching to find truth will eventually (before the mark of the beast and the seal of God are given) end up with the conviction of worshiping on the Sabbath (Saturday), it is an important thing and I don't believe that God will allow anyone that is truly worshiping and serving him to be lost.

[blackdiamond]

I almost hate to bring this up and potentially open the flood gates, but has anyone else seen a thread on the site have this many responses without anyone  or  or more amazingly  ?  I think that it shows that people do feel that religion is an important subject.  Keep in mind that this isn't an invitation to do any of these things 

This thread has been very valuable to me because it is a learning experience to defend my faith.  As much as I have enjoyed being on the "defensive" side answering questions (I hope it continues), I would like to try the other side of the fence and ask questions on other religions so I ask again for others to post up the beliefs of their religion.

[germ]

My faith has a closer similarity to SDA but with a touch of Catholic. I am what you might call a Witness of Jehovah, aka "Juhovah" or "JW" or "Jehovah's Witness".

I'd personally like to hear some more about the tenents of the Jehovah's Witness's point of view. My brother in law claims JW, and he has some beliefs and practices that i don't understand. For example, he states his religion forbids him from celebrating birthdays, Christmas and annyversaries. I always kinda figured it was because he had 6 kids, and a so-so job and didn't want to spend the $$. I've never really met anyone else from this faith, and I would be interested to learn more about your churches teachings.

There was someone else who posted up as LDS (I'm sorry, I can't find your post right now), and I'd be interested in hearing more about your churches teachings as well.

there is a bit of mystery about several of these churches (as there is about SDA), and rather than operate on hear-say, I'd like to hear something from someone with first hand knowlege.

thanks in advance.
Erik

[synwars]

Oh good cuz I'm just catching up... 

[blackdiamond]

Oh good cuz I'm just catching up...

You can a lot of reading to do!  Did you post your religion earlier, I can't remember and it could day a day to find it again.

[blackdiamond]

The official title of the Pope is "VICARIVS FILII DEI" which means "Vicar of the Son of God."  If you add up the numbers using the Latin numbers it totals 666.  As a side note, I have seen how this works for nearly every language but I have not found it documented quite yet.  Also the literal meaning is, "the substitute for the Son of God."

VICARIVS - substituting for, or in place of
FILII - means son
DEI - means God

Here is the link: http://www.remnantofgod.org/666.htm

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Revelation 13: 18

[synwars]

You can a lot of reading to do! Did you post your religion earlier, I can't remember and it could day a day to find it again.

Look at the author of Germ's quote above...

[blackdiamond]

Look at the author of Germ's quote above...

Hmm, I guess I am a bit slow tonight.

[synwars]

Much like the SDA, we as Jehovah's Witnesses follow Bible commands and principles as close as we can. I have to say Kudos to the SDA's on the board here for closely abiding to the Bible and being seperate from traditional influence from a certain Church. As Witnesses of Jehovah, we show much appreciation for the Bible and what it says by looking into it everyday through constant study and meditation. Hence, posted on the front of the building HQ of JW's, there you will see a sign that says, "Read the Bible daily." As Jehovah's Witnesses we strive to maintain out conduct, following Jehovah's principles that he has set out for us in his Word the Bible. Hence, that is why we do not celebrate birthdays, why we do not celebrate Christmas or any other holiday for that matter. That is why we do not accept blood in any form as acceptable in medicinal practices, or in our diet. That is why we do not fornicate, drink excessively, use drugs, divorce for no reason, and the list goes on. This is ALSO WHY we see that through reasoning on the scriptures and constant study of them, we see that we are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law Covenant including the 10 Words. We know that it is by practicing the principle of love in our life and by putting faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that we may address the Universal Issue of Sovereignty, thus leading to salvation and benefiting from the provisions Jehovah has set out for us. We see what is written in the Bible as direction from Jehovah himself, and he promises us that if we live our lives according to it, that it will benefit everyone.

Because you will have to admit, that if everyone could follow simple Bible principles perfectly, then the world would be a very nice place to live. Alas, because of inherant sinfulness, and because of Satanic influence, this cannot happen without Jehovah's help. We have seen it time and again. It is written deep in history. Man cannot keep going on the same way. Without Jehovah, all man's efforts will amount to nothing.

That is how we are Witnesses of Jehovah, in a nutshell. I mentioned various subjects above that many may try and defend. I am simply stating observations and reasonings that I have gleaned from the Bible. I will now present to you reasonings from the scriptures on these issues one at a time.

Which would you like to hear first?

***Please note that I will be gone between 7:30 and 9 as we have a Bible study to attend to with various Brothers and Sisters from our Congregation. These past few weeks we have been studying the "Last Days" and how close we are to the Great Tribulation followed by Armageddon. These truely are exciting days to be living in!***

[synwars]

OOOPS, I've gots to go. I promise I'll be back to post up info on these certain issues. Say around 9ish.

Later.

[blackdiamond]

I figured that I should post some information from the Catholic side, I found this on the web tonight.  The link is:

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/666.htm

The Pope, the Beast, and 666
A Challenge to Seventh-Day Adventists
by MARIO DERKSEN

"Seventh-Day Adventists (SDAs) have made it easy for themselves. They figured out a clever number game that - allegedly - proves the Pope is the Antichrist and the Catholic Church a satanic institution, the sleeper of Babylon.

Now, I am not even going to bother trying to refute this or that 666-game; instead, I will try a new tactic:
The passage this is all about is Apocalypse [=Revelation] 13:16-18:

And he [the Beast] shall make all, both little and great, rich and poor, freemen and bondmen, to have a character in their right hand or on their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, but he that hath the character, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six. [Emphasis added]

Now, this is my challenge to SDAs, or rather, to all those who believe the Catholic Church to be the sleeper of Babylon and the Pope to be the Antichrist:

Prove to me that you fall into the category of "he that hath understanding"; show me why you are the one that has the understanding that is mentioned in Apocalypse 13:16-18. It is not sufficient simply to tag a person with the number 666 by whatever calculations. 666 can apply to many people, depending on the method calculation, but only one is the Beast. Even adding to that other "clues" from Bible passages does not suffice, for the correct interpretation of these Bible passages would also depend on whether or not you have that understanding. So you must demonstrate a priori that you have the understanding needed to properly identify the Beast. If you would like to respond to this challenge, please send me e-mail: [email protected].

However, here's a hint: it cannot be done. I once had one participant argue that those who are holy have the necessary understanding, and that since he was holy, he had the understanding required. Though this argument works at least in theory, the problem was that he was not a Catholic and differed with Catholicism on what it means to be holy and justified in God's sight--in other words, he relied on his own interpretation of what the Holy Bible says about holiness and justification before God, and thus he could not escape the circle of first having to show understanding before arguing about Scripture. So, again: the challenge cannot be answered. It is impossible to demonstrate a priori that one has the understanding called for in Apocalypse 13:16-18. Only the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, could do so (though she hasn't identified who the Beast is), for the fact that she has understanding follows from her having been founded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:18-19; see also 1 Timothy 3:15)."

I can't say for certain, but I doubt that this person has studied the entire SDA teachings on this subject.  The number 666 is just a very small portion of the line of reasoning that is used; in fact, it can be done without it (it is icing on the cake just like the Revelation dragon beign red).  I would agree that there is no proof that Adventist have the "knowledge" that he is refering too, but is there any proof other than tradition that the Pope is in place of Christ.  It is also interesting to me that he wrote someone off simply because they didn't agree with the Catholic definition of "holy" does that seem like an honest open mind?

If requested, I will spend some time tomorrow evening and Saturday afternoon, if needed, trying to piece together more of the evidence.  Most of it is in the stuff I send BD, but I still have all of the hard copies on the floor.  Here is a summary:

If you follow Bible prophecy you can actually follow the world powers through history and see how they align perfectly with the statue in Daniel and the beasts in Revelation (the two work together).  You can even figure it out with timeframes.  Here is the list:
1) Babylon 605-539 BC (The head of gold and the lion beast)
2) Medo-Persia 539-331 BC (Silver chest and bear beast)
3) Greece 331-168 BC (Chest of Bronze and Leopard beast)
4) Rome 168 BC - 476 AD (Legs of Iron and terrible beast with 10 horns)
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings taht shall arise..." Daniel 7:24
5) 10 Kingdoms 476 AD - 2nd Coming (feet of iron and clay)
Germanic Tribes:
Alamanni = Greece
Franks = France
Burgundian = Switzerland
Suevi = Portugal
Lombards = Italy
Visigoths = Spain
Anglo-Saxons = England
Vandals = Destroyed
Heruli = Destroyed
Ostrogoths = Destroyed

It is worth noting that if you study history each of the major kingdoms actually fit the metals and animals that represent them. Rome was known for iron chariots and when you think of Babylon you thing of Daniel and the Lions, etc...

"I considered teh horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of teh first horns plucked up by the roots; and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:8

#1 Among them - Among the European Nations

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom aer then kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them.." Daniel 7:24

#2 After 476 AD when the 10 Kings arose.

#3 A "little" horn - a little kingdom

#4 Uproots 3 horns - three kingdoms

"And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:8

#5 A man at its head

"And he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." Daniel 7:24

#6 Diverse - different from other kingdoms

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies: and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Revelation 13:5

How does the Bible define blasphemy?

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:33

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.  But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 5-7

#7 Speaks great words and blasphemy

#8 Wears out and wars against God's saints

#9 Thinks to change times and laws

"And the woman (church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Revelation 12:6

20 years = a score, see Abraham Lincoln's speach. So 1260 day and profectic days = years, this is generally agreed on.

#10 Rules 1260 years. - this is a poor explaination I admit, don't have all of the texts in front of me.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wandered after the beast." Revelation 13:3

#11 World-Wide power

_____

#1 Vigilius...ascended the papal chair (538 AD) under the military protection of Belisarius. - History of the Christian church vol. 3 pg 327

#2 & #4 Of the ten divisions of old Rome seven accepted the supremacy of teh Biship of Rome, the other three opposed his supremacy.  War was made on these three.  The last of the opposing powers, the Goths, were overthown in 538 AD.  This gave Papal Rome the undisputed supremacy.  The 1260 years thus began in 538 AD.

#5 "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God." Ferraris' Ecclasiastical Dictionary

#6 The Papacy is very different from the rest of the kingdoms

#7 "This judicial authority will even include the power to forgive sins." - The Catholic Encyclopedia
Antichrist means, " Men who set themselves up in the place of CHrist, instead of Christ."

"...and shall wear out the saints of the most High." Daniel 7:25 - makes war against God's people  Also see Revelation 13:7

#8 "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than another other institution that has ever existed among mankind will be questioned by no Protestand who has a competent knowledge of history." - The History of the Rise of teh Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, VOl. 2 p. 32

#9 "thinks to change times and laws" Daniel 7:25 - "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws." Prompta Bibliotheca, Lucius Ferrais  Ten commandments (shown above and Sunday worship)

#10 1260 years, 538 AD to 1798 AD - what happened?

"The murder of a Frenchman in Rome in 1798 gave the French an excuse for occupying the Eternal City and putting and end to hte Papal temporal power." - Church History

"In 1798 he (Berthier)...made his entrance into Rome, abolished the papal government and established a secular one." The Encyclopedia Americana.

"His deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:3 - Nobody can argue that the Papacy has not gained worldwide influence prestige and prominence.

"The dragon (Roman Empire) gave him (the beast) his power, and his seat, and great authority." Revelation 13:2

" The popes filled the place of teh vacant emperors of Rome, inheriting their power, prestige and titles from paganism..." Stanley's History

"The papacy is but the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upone its grave." Stanley's History

"To the succession of teh Caesar's came the succession of the Pontiffs in Rome. When COnstantine left Rome he gave his seat to the Pontiff." Labianca

Men who saw the Papacy as the Antichrist:

Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran)
John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) ( Anglican)
Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist)
the list continues with a few more names...

I realize that this is a "crash" class, but I think that it shows enough basis to say that the number 666 isn't the sole reason or that Adventist (started about 1844) came up with the doctrine themselves.

[blackdiamond]

OOOPS, I've gots to go. I promise I'll be back to post up info on these certain issues. Say around 9ish.

Later.

I certainly have a few comments/questions, but I have a softball game tonight so I will have to get back with you tomorrow evening when I have time to think once again.  Thanks for the post!

[synwars]

Ok I lied haha, I'm here but I'm not. I'll be back in a bit after I go for a walk with my lovely girlfriend. 

[gonzo]

[blackdiamond]

"Much like the SDA, we as Jehovah's Witnesses follow Bible commands and principles as close as we can.  As Jehovah's Witnesses we strive to maintain out (our?) conduct, following Jehovah's principles that he has set out for us in his Word the Bible."

It is interesting that you claim to follow the Bible commands and principles, I would agree that you follow many of the principles, but if you don't follow the 10 Commandments, what "commands" are you talking about?

"Hence, that is why we do not celebrate birthdays, why we do not celebrate Christmas or any other holiday for that matter."

Where in the Bible does it say, or show by example, that we shouldn't celebrate events?  The Jews in the old testiment celebrated many different festivals (sabbaths) that were commanded by the Lord.  I could understand if the reasoning was based on teh fact that many of the current holidays like Easter and Chistmas were linked to pagan holidays of the past, but Birthday certainly don't fall under this category, they are simply a celebration of the life that God gave us.

"That is why we do not accept blood in any form as acceptable in medicinal practices, or in our diet."

I'm not sure I agree that this comes directly from the Bible, but I won't argue that it is a good diet practice.

"That is why we do not fornicate, drink excessively, use drugs, divorce for no reason, and the list goes on."

I would agree that all of these things are good, but are not many of them linked to the 10 Commandments?

"...we see that we are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law Covenant including the 10 Words."

I have heard of this belief before, I would agree that the ceremonial (Jewish Sacrificial System) law was done away with when Christ died, that is why the God tore the curtain between the holy and most holy rooms in the temple.  There is much evidence in the Bible that the 10 Commandments were not done away with.

"Because you will have to admit, that if everyone could follow simple Bible principles perfectly, then the world would be a very nice place to live."

If the majority of people followed half of the Bible principles the world would be a great place.

[blackdiamond]

I realize that it takes a while to process, but I am still a bit surprised that nobody has commented on my "summary" above.  I hope that you are all giving it an honest read and even confirming some of the information.  I have more information on the subject, but as you can see it would take a long time to explain on the board.

I need to make one correct/clarification in an above post, once finished I will post the revised statement here as well.

"As long as we have an active relationship with God and are receptive to what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us, not ignoring things because they are outside of our comfort zones, I believe that we have salvation.  I also believe that anybody that is honestly searching to find truth will eventually (before the mark of the beast and the seal of God are given) end up with the conviction of worshiping on the Sabbath (Saturday), it is an important thing and I don't believe that God will allow anyone that is truly worshiping and serving him to be lost."

The reason that I took the time to modify my statement is because a long time implies that you will eventually agree with me, while prior to the mark and seal means that God will lead you to truth before it is a salvation issue.

[germ]

As Jehovah's Witnesses we strive to maintain out conduct, following Jehovah's principles that he has set out for us in his Word the Bible. Hence, that is why we do not celebrate birthdays, why we do not celebrate Christmas or any other holiday for that matter.

Could you discuss this a bit more? Not sure I understand the reasoning for this. I certainly understand not celebrating the Pagen holidays, but Christmas (although not his actual Birthday) is meant to celebrate Jesus's birth. Individual Birthdays, as far as i can tell, are not governed by any Biblical principal.

That is why we do not accept blood in any form as acceptable in medicinal practices, or in our diet.

I'm very aware of the JW's not accepting blood products (As I work in Medicine), and the diet part I have to agree with. Could you provide some more information on why you don't accept life saving blood? Admitedly, I havn't scoured the Bible for a reference on this, but I'd be interested to know what principal this is based upon.

This is ALSO WHY we see that through reasoning on the scriptures and constant study of them, we see that we are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law Covenant including the 10 Words

You got me on this one. Not exactly sure what you mean by "Mosaic Law including the 10 words"

Because you will have to admit, that if everyone could follow simple Bible principles perfectly, then the world would be a very nice place to live. Alas, because of inherant sinfulness, and because of Satanic influence, this cannot happen without Jehovah's help. We have seen it time and again. It is written deep in history. Man cannot keep going on the same way. Without Jehovah, all man's efforts will amount to nothing

Well said ! 

Erik 

[germ]

Now, this is my challenge to SDAs, or rather, to all those who believe the Catholic Church to be the sleeper of Babylon and the Pope to be the Antichrist:

Prove to me that you fall into the category of "he that hath understanding"; show me why you are the one that has the understanding that is mentioned in Apocalypse 13:16-18.

"Hath understanding" is something that is provided by the Holy Spirit. There is no proof available, or really needed. I would ask the author to "prove" thru Biblical text that these understandings are wrong. Show us a well researched "proof" that it is someone else. Also, there is not just one that has the understanding. As quoted lower in the original post, there are several very well known and respected religious leaders from multiple different faiths who have come to essentially the same conclusion.

Even adding to that other "clues" from Bible passages does not suffice, for the correct interpretation of these Bible passages would also depend on whether or not you have that understanding

The Bible is the only authoritative text where this information can come from. Relying on text from man, unless a prophet, is essentially useless.

However, here's a hint: it cannot be done

Does it make any sense that God would give us this incredible warning of who and what we should be warry of, and not provide us the information needed to determine who and what that is? If that were the case, then none of us would be saved.

Though this argument works at least in theory, the problem was that he was not a Catholic and differed with Catholicism on what it means to be holy and justified in God's sight--in other words, he relied on his own interpretation of what the Holy Bible says about holiness and justification before God, and thus he could not escape the circle of first having to show understanding before arguing about Scripture.

The Catholics are not the only ones with access to the information, and they are not given devine ownership of "the truth". Catholocism does not define holiness, only God can make that distinction. This is also starting from the supposition that the Catholic church is right to begin with, which is faulty logic. Here again, we have the Catholic Church trying to step in "in place of" Jesus.

he could not escape the circle of first having to show understanding before arguing about Scripture.

This is circular logic, which falls apart under scruteny. You cannot hold a belief, then argue against it. Therefore if you hold the Catholic belief, or are held to that interpretation, it is illogical to try and argue against it. dosen't hold water IMO.

Only the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, could do so (though she hasn't identified who the Beast is), for the fact that she has understanding ((who says?) follows from her having been founded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself

No where have I found, or been told that the Catholic Church is the only one with access to this information. The bible was provided for man's salvation, not the Catholic Churches salvation. This implies that only those who are Catholic can be saved, which is in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches. This also assumes that Satan has not influenced man in any way, and could have polluted the Catholic church's belief system. Remeber, Satan is a counterfeit...Very close to the original, but yet different. Revelations speaks very clarly to this point.

Unfortunatly, this author is basing his arguments on weak points, and faulty logic. I'm not suggesting that he is not well read, or doesn't have some insight, but it sounds to me that he is basing his salvation on the words of man, and not the word of god. You cannot discount an argument just because it does not originate out of the same place as your beliefs. You have to use solid logic, and solid facts to discount an argument. (I wish I'd paid better attention in my speech classes!  ) From what he has written, it sounds as though he didn't even listen to this other person, because they held a different view than him.

A case in point: While in college, I had a professor ask us to prove to him that the holocaust did in fact occur. Some of us (me included) are WWII history buffs, and presented very well thought out and logical explanations and "proofs" that the holocust was real. He was able to discredit each and every argument we made. His final comment to us was that you cannot prove the Holocaust occured based on individual instances, but when you look at everthing that happened in it's entirety, there is no way you can surmise anything else but that it did occur.

I think it applies here as well. While you can argue to death individual points, when you put the whole picture together, I think it is fairly clear who the beast is, and what we need to do to avoid it's mark.

I think it is important to remember, that the truth is not found in Church, rather the truth is found in the Bible. Once you have read the Bible, and found the truth, then go and find a church that teaches the truth.

[synwars]

Sorry this is taking so long. I was writing up a long page and I totally got raped and pillaged by my computer. All of a sudden, SHUT DOWN. I really don't like this computer. Gimme some time, I'll get it up. My two fingers can't type fast enough.