Topic: How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[blackdiamond]

(6) Seventh Day Adventist Bible Commentary Vol 5 page 1129 Ellen White states "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty."

Indeed it does...now try reading it with the context around it.  I made the quote very easy to find.

SDA Bible Commentary Vol 5, p. 1129
   “But although Christ’s divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man.  The human did not take the place of divine, nor the divine of the human.  This is the mystery of godliness.  The two expressions ‘human’ and ‘divine’ were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality.  Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own.  His deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty.  Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven.  He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done.
   There were occasions when Jesus stood forth while in human flesh as the Son of God.  Divinity flashed through humanity, and was seen by the scoffing priests and rulers.  Was it acknowledged?  Some acknowledged that He was the Christ, but the larger portion of those who upon these special occasions were forced to see that He was the Son of God, refused to receive Him.  Their blindness corresponded to their determined resistance of conviction.
   When Christ’s indwelling glory flashed forth, it was too intense for His pure and perfect humanity entirely to conceal.  The scribes and Pharisees did not speak in acknowledgement of Him, but their enmity and hatred were baffled as His majesty shone forth.  The truth, obscured as it was by a veil of humiliation, spoke to every heart with unmistakable evidence.  This led to the words of Christ, ‘Ye know who I am.’  Men and devils were compelled, by the shining forth of His glory, to confess, ‘Truly, this is the Son of God.’  Thus God was revealed; thus Christ was glorified.
   Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings.  This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan’s charge against God is false – that it is possible for man to obey the laws of God’s kingdom.  Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty – to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.  Yet the stamp of divinity was upon His humanity.  He came as a divine Teacher, to uplift human beings, to increase their physical, mental, and spiritual efficiency.
   There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ.  Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men.  The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.  The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’
   In every possible was Satan sought to prevent Jesus from developing a perfect childhood, a faultless manhood, a holy ministry, and an unblemished sacrifice.  But he was defeated.  He could not lead Jesus into sin.  He could not discourage Him, or drive Him from the work He had come to this earth to do.  From the desert to Calvary the storm of Satan’s wrath beat upon Him, but the more mercilessly if fell, the more firmly did the Son of God cling to the hand of His Father, and press on in the blood-stained path.
   When Jesus took human nature, and became in fashion as a man, He possessed all the human organism.  His necessities were the necessities of a man.  He had bodily wants to be supplied, bodily weariness to be relieved.  By prayer to the Father He was braced for duty and for trial.”

This “contradiction” from Ellen G. White’s writings is likely one of the easiest ones to separate from context and completely lose the true meaning, plus when taken out of context is seems vitally important (you pointed it out above the others).  I think the above quote speaks for itself.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God (Moses had to turn his back on the mountain) yet sinful humans existed in the presence.  As White says, the incarnation of Christ is an impossible thing to describe or completely understand.

[chim]

"As a Side Note: One thing to remember is that you don't technically have to believe in EG White to be SDA, it is rare, but people like that do exist.  The biggest difference between Adventists and EG White and say Mormons and Joseph Smith (an example) is that we look at the Bible as #1 and EG White as #2 (she never claimed to be above the Bible).  The way most SDAs look at EG White is that if something she says doesn't make sense it is likely that we are misunderstanding what she says (context is very important just like the Bible).  If something she says seems to contradict the Bible, believe the Bible and the Bible only."

Although Joseph Smith and Mormonism are not a good example, what you are saying is very similar to what Mormons would say...With Mormons the Book of Mormon would come first because its the latest revelation.. , and even more recent would be their current prophet.  But the important part is that Joseph claimed to be a prophet of God, if what he says is not in accordance with the  Bible and if even one revelation doesnt come true he is false. ANd since he is the founder, it doesnt matter what that church teaches now,,... it was based on a false prophet..  Mormons say well we dont beleive that now.. it doesnt matter if they do or not.. its the fact that, that is what was taught by men supposively called by God. Context is important, but too often than not, just because we dont understand and make it work to our advantage doesnt mean we are taking it out of context..  If you knew that Mrs White taught some false teachings and she was the founder of SDA then why would you still want to associate and call yourself one? You already say the Bible is the most Important which is Awesome.. I mean.. i dont call myself Mormon anymore..

"How can a plan that doesn’t exist be advanced?  Is it implausible to think that God, the Trinity, had a plan in place from the beginning of time and then had a further discussion to make the final decision?  Do you think it was easy for God the Father do a let His Son come to earth and risk losing Him forever?  Are you willing to put God into a “box” that doesn’t allow Him to reconsider a plan?"

God doesnt reconsider a plan because God already knows everything thats going to happen, and God doesnt change... if he did it would violate his nature! An all knowing God would have no reason to reconsider anything....

I will need more time to respond more thoroughly...

[blackdiamond [OP]]

"God doesnt reconsider a plan because God already knows everything thats going to happen, and God doesnt change... if he did it would violate his nature! An all knowing God would have no reason to reconsider anything..."

Are you really will to limit God to be Himself "predestined" simply because He is all-knowing?  If God isn't predestined, then He must have the ability to consider options and make desicions and choices.  Think about the variety and creativity seen the  created world, I can't imagine that He didn't make "choices" about how to create things.  Every person is a unique individual, I believe that He took the time to create me to be who I am.  You are correct that God can't change His law, but that it entirely different from choosing between options.  The God I serve is a personal God.  As an example, God told Jonah that he was going to destroy (not might destroy) Nineva, did He?  No, the people repented and God chose not to destroy them.  We have to keep in mind that understanding or explaining God is impossible in our limited human state.

[chim]

I believe God can do anything he wants... I can not limit him..  BUt what I am saying that.. the God I believe in is so powerful so all knowing that he knows everything thats going to happen before it happens..  I believe God knew that he wasnt going to destroy Nineva.. I believe before he even planned the world he knew what he was going to do....  Thats doesnt make him predestined..  How could I count on God and trust his word if there was a chance he could change his game plan or his mind along the way?  We cant think of God in terms of man and say that he needs to make desciosions...  God says his thoughts are higher than ours and his ways are higher than ours..  for us to try to grasp that and relate it to us is not possible..  God is not a man.. therefor we can not rational things as if he were....


Also.. another quick thought.. why would E.G.W have to write additional writings just to clarify her earlier writings? God is not the author of confusion....

[blackdiamond [OP]]

You're technically correct that Ellen G. White is a co-founder of the SDA church along with Joseph Bates (I would have to do some research, but I think that he was the #1 leader), but the church was not formed to follow the teaching of Ellen G. White.  A group of Christians from various religions had studied the Bible and came to the conclusion that Christ's second coming was in 1844, I can't remember the specific date right now.  They sold all of their stuff and were sitting on a hill waiting for His return.  This is known as the Great Disappointment and it pre-dated the SDA church.  As a result of that event, some of the believers left Christianity and other determined to further study the Bible and figure out where their error was.  This group eventually became the SDA church.

Also, as a side note, she referred to herself and a "lesser light," never to be taken above the Bible.

Have you ever read one of her books from cover to cover?  I will be honest and admit that I haven't, but I have yet to find anything that she wrote that I wasn't able to compare with the Bible and see that it matched.  The other SDA's on the board that were raised SDA will probably all agree that the older generation went overboard with her writing and as a result many of my generation avoided her writings while growing up.  I am almost 28 and I am just now warming up to her writing.  My beliefs are based on the Bible alone.

As an interesting side note: There is also a ton of history to match the Bible facts (a list of about 10 things) about a prophet.  Did you know that true prophets go into a trance/coma thing when they are in vision and also they stop breathing?  Both of these are historically documented for her, I don't know all of the details but I would be willing to do some research if you want.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I believe God can do anything he wants... I can not limit him..  BUt what I am saying that.. the God I believe in is so powerful so all knowing that he knows everything thats going to happen before it happens..  I believe God knew that he wasnt going to destroy Nineva.. I believe before he even planned the world he knew what he was going to do....  Thats doesnt make him predestined..  How could I count on God and trust his word if there was a chance he could change his game plan or his mind along the way?  We cant think of God in terms of man and say that he needs to make desciosions...  God says his thoughts are higher than ours and his ways are higher than ours..  for us to try to grasp that and relate it to us is not possible..  God is not a man.. therefor we can not rational things as if he were....


Also.. another quick thought.. why would E.G.W have to write additional writings just to clarify her earlier writings? God is not the author of confusion....

God's law, character and His promises can't change, the Bible reveals all three to us and that, along with a personal relationship, is what we have faith in.  God is a creative God and that requires Him to be able to choose.  He could have chosen simply to not create Lucifer and theoretically the sin problem would have handled itself...that had to be an interesting choice.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about writing to clarify other writings?

[chim]

As far as testing a prophet there are two simple tests that the Bible outlines.. One in Deut: 13 and the other in chapter 18. Basically if one prophecy doesnt come true then there is no light in the person and they are a false prophet.. To be a SDA is to follow the teachings of E.G.W. and its just the same as to be a Mormon you follow the teachings or Joseph Smith.. or even Brigham Young who came later... The onle "scripture" i have read cover to cover is the Bible.. But dont discount the internet for info just because its the internet. Many scholarly people have made it their lifes work to inform people..  we just need to check the references and make sure its right.. like the bible says, test all things!As a mormon reading lots of their material I never found any contradictions either..  until the Lord gave me sight from spiritual blindness and showed me the errors...  but please dont get me wrong.. im not saying you are spiritually blind..  One thing i know for sure is that only God knows our hearts. I am 28 myself and am by no means a Bible scholar! But i do know that Christianity and the Bible are the only truth that will hold up. Religion can be a bad thing.. its tends to take our hearts away from whats important which is a personal relationship with Christ and focus it on religious wastes of effort and focus.

As far as true prophets going into a trance, I have never heard that..  not in the Bible, and not in real life..  If thats the case then Mormons are really in trouble.. falling into a trance actually would make me worry where the source of their power came from....

how would God have know if we truly had loved him if there wasnt evil and sin in this world? This topic has been debated over and over. If there was no sin, and no option to choose good over evil how would God know we love him,....  If it was all perfect it would be like a forced love...  You cant force someone to love you..  I cant force my kids to love me.. All I can do is love them and hopefully they love me back. I want my kids to love me because they choose to love me..  not just because I want them to. There has to be free will and choice..  without evil and sin there wouldnt be much of a choice.

[chim]

Does anyone else have any opinions on this stuff?

[blackdiamond [OP]]

For the record, you will notice in the 13 pages of this post I have only referenced E. G. White after she was brought up by another person.  I have been using the Bible alone to defend my beliefs.

I'm glad that the majority of Christianity mostly agree on death, hell and other doctrines, but doesn't the Bible say that the way is narrow?  I'm not claiming to be correct because my beliefs are unique; however, it is something to consider when you are in agreement with the majority of the world.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Here is some information on the spirit of prophesy, not anyone specifically.

Joel 2:28-29 “And it shall come to pass afterword That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.  And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.”

Acts 2:14-21 “…quote of Joel 2:28-29…I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the Lord.  And it comes to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.”

Revelation 19:10  “Worship God!  For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm360441.html

http://www.vtonly.com/loredec7.htm

[germ]

To be a SDA is to follow the teachings of E.G.W.

Chim, I'd have to disagree with you on this point. I converted to SDA about 2 years ago. While I was aware of E.G.W., I certainly did not get baptized BECAUSE of her writings. I follow the word of the Bible and not the word of man (woman). I have read several books by E.G.W., and personally find her writings somewhat tedious.

Is she a prophet? I couldn't tell you. There are certainly those who believe she is, but I don't know enough to say for sure. I can tell you though that I'm not SDA because i follow E.G.W.'s writings. I follow the Bible.

I became interested in the SDA church because they always referenced the Bible. In my church, they encourage people to question, and then direct them back to the Bible to find the answer. They also strongly encourage prayer so that God can inspire you to the right answer. Not once have i ever been directed to an E.G.W. writing to get an answer.

Can't say for sure this is true in all SDA churches, but it's the custom in the church I attend.

Erik

[chim]

Well... thats like me saying that I dont follow Joseph Smith or Brigham Young but am a Mormon. If your SDA you are going to follow her teachings or be influenced by them regardless.... There is no way around it unless you disassiociate yourself with that organization. Everthing always sounds great at first.. its not until you have been in an organization long enough and studied for yourself till you find out what your organization really represents... Then at that point you have to defend them with the Bible. And usually what yo uwill find are teachings that are just a little bit off of the Bible and something that makes Christ less than what he is. I could join the Freemasons and say that they do a ton of good work and believe in the Bible, but its not until im involved and research and study that I find out that it worships a different God than the Bible and leads people stray.

[chim]

The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.


As White says, the incarnation of Christ is an impossible thing to describe or completely understand.


This makes no sense and is totally contradictory to the Bible. Even a Bible believer like yourself can see the error here.. there is no way around it.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.


As White says, the incarnation of Christ is an impossible thing to describe or completely understand.


This makes no sense and is totally contradictory to the Bible. Even a Bible believer like yourself can see the error here.. there is no way around it.

What she is saying is fairly simple, if God the Father or the Son came to earth in their heavenly form we would all die.  Moses had to hide in the mountain just to see Gods "back" and still came down glowing.  She says that Jesus Christ is all man AND all God, but He has somehow (can't be explained or understood in human terms) He "changed" so that we could be in His presence on earth and not die.  Somehow He had to mask His almighty power or Satan wouldn't have had a fair chance.  He didn't use His own power, but relied on His Father the same way that you and I can.

[germ]

Well... thats like me saying that I dont follow Joseph Smith or Brigham Young but am a Mormon. If your SDA you are going to follow her teachings or be influenced by them regardless.... There is no way around it unless you disassiociate yourself with that organization. Everthing always sounds great at first.. its not until you have been in an organization long enough and studied for yourself till you find out what your organization really represents... Then at that point you have to defend them with the Bible. And usually what yo uwill find are teachings that are just a little bit off of the Bible and something that makes Christ less than what he is. I could join the Freemasons and say that they do a ton of good work and believe in the Bible, but its not until im involved and research and study that I find out that it worships a different God than the Bible and leads people stray.

Again I have to disagree, but...this is a minor detail in my mind, which does not affect my salvation. My salvation is directly affected by my relationship with God, and not E.G.W. Therefore, rather than split hairs about this, lets just agree to disagree, and move on to the more important stuff.

By the way, as I read through your posts, I am impressed with your knowlege and understanding. Lets keep up the dialoge, so we can all learn and be blessed.

Erik

[chim]

What she is saying is fairly simple, if God the Father or the Son came to earth in their heavenly form we would all die.  Moses had to hide in the mountain just to see Gods "back" and still came down glowing.  She says that Jesus Christ is all man AND all God, but He has somehow (can't be explained or understood in human terms) He "changed" so that we could be in His presence on earth and not die.  Somehow He had to mask His almighty power or Satan wouldn't have had a fair chance.  He didn't use His own power, but relied on His Father the same way that you and I can.

This is not what I am saying, nor what was quoted...

The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.

The man Christ Jesus IS the Lord God Almighty, Christ and the Father ARE one. By saying he is not is making him less than he is. He may have been a man here on earth but he never ceased being the Lord God Almighty... he claimed to be GOD.. thats why so many wanted to kill him several times..

[chim]

Lets keep up the dialoge, so we can all learn and be blessed.


Praise God.

[*FFC*]

Lets keep up the dialoge, so we can all learn and be blessed.


Praise God.

I agree, and I am bummed I haven't stayed caught up on this thread, guess I better start reading 

[blackdiamond [OP]]

Again I have to disagree, but...this is a minor detail in my mind, which does not affect my salvation. My salvation is directly affected by my relationship with God, and not E.G.W. Therefore, rather than split hairs about this, lets just agree to disagree, and move on to the more important stuff.

By the way, as I read through your posts, I am impressed with your knowlege and understanding. Lets keep up the dialoge, so we can all learn and be blessed.

Erik

I agree with Germ and we should agree to disagree on this issue.  I will admit that it is impossible to be SDA and not have some influence in belief from Ellen G. White; however, her impact on church doctrine is probably one of the most misunderstood aspects of the SDA church thanks to some of the other denominations founded by a "prophet."

[chim]

I just think that since she claimed to be a prophet of God that she should be held accountable for what she has said and what she has taught... I mean, not eating meat... thats not Biblical... Eternal sleep not Biblical, having to worship on Saturday was changed with Christ... Most all of this we have discussed so far... and I do believe that you are saved and that you will be with God when you die, but I also think that others who don't believe are misled with ideas of eternal sleep... or are pushed away by legalistic practices such as Saturday worship or not eating of meat...  Its very discouraging to a new believer to accept Christ and then have to worry about what they can and cant do.. don't forget there is freedom in Christ,... not to do all sorts of sinful things but to follow Christ and live your life in accordance to his word. To live for Christ is not to miss out on life and be bound, but to have life more abundantly.

Several times you have brought up John 3:16.. I want to look at this for a moment and break it down.

"For God.."  -  talking about God here
"so loved.." - God loved very much
"the world.." - Thats everyone here
"that he gave his only begotten Son.." - huge sacrifice to love so much that he was willing to sacrifice so much
"that whosoever" - thats anyone, anywhere, anybody
"believes in him" - believe in Christ..
"should not perish, but have eternal life" - Live with God forever in his Kingdom.

How could God have so much love and yet people can suffer eternally.. how could God send people to suffer eternally??

Answer is..  He doesn't.

We do. We make the choice to go there because we have rejected a free gift.. God already paid for us, with the blood of his perfect son, and when we don't accept that free gift we are making our own decision to suffer eternally. Its all about which we choose.

[*FFC*]

Several times you have brought up John 3:16.. I want to look at this for a moment and break it down.

"For God.."  -  talking about God here
"so loved.." - God loved very much
"the world.." - Thats everyone here
"that he gave his only begotten Son.." - huge sacrifice to love so much that he was willing to sacrifice so much
"that whosoever" - thats anyone, anywhere, anybody
"believes in him" - believe in Christ..
"should not perish, but have eternal life" - Live with God forever in his Kingdom.

How could God have so much love and yet people can suffer eternally.. how could God send people to suffer eternally??

Answer is..  He doesn't.

We do. We make the choice to go there because we have rejected a free gift.. God already paid for us, with the blood of his perfect son, and when we don't accept that free gift we are making our own decision to suffer eternally. Its all about which we choose.

Amen

I just think that since she claimed to be a prophet of God that she should be held accountable for what she has said and what she has taught... I mean, not eating meat... thats not Biblical... Eternal sleep not Biblical, having to worship on Saturday was changed with Christ... Most all of this we have discussed so far... and I do believe that you are saved and that you will be with God when you die, but I also think that others who don't believe are misled with ideas of eternal sleep... or are pushed away by legalistic practices such as Saturday worship or not eating of meat...  Its very discouraging to a new believer to accept Christ and then have to worry about what they can and cant do.. don't forget there is freedom in Christ,... not to do all sorts of sinful things but to follow Christ and live your life in accordance to his word. To live for Christ is not to miss out on life and be bound, but to have life more abundantly.

I understand your point on the meat eating view, but not the sunday/saturday view.  I believe that IF God wanted his day of rest changed from Saturday to Sunday, it would have been changed in His Word.  Where on earth does it say in the Bible that the Sabbath is supposed to be changed to Sunday from the "7th day" as the Bible puts it.

I once asked a Sunday preacher this question: Why, if the Bible preaches that the Seventh Day is the Sabbath, and Saturday is the 7th day, do you keep the FIRST day of the week as your sabbath?  He answered me with one simple word: Tradition.  Choosing tradition over the Bible? I dont get it 

[*FFC*]

Then again, as stated in the 'Christ' thread, I guess it shouldn't really matter which day you rest as long as you do it.... BUT it's the whole tradition vs. Bible thing that gets to me

[chim]

It doesnt matter to me if its Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday...Sunday just works better for me. I like to think of Sunday as the day the Lord arose from the grave.. Lets celebrate that.


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 


I would rather just be an everyday Christian and not just a "sabbath" Christian. Who cares what day it is... lets just give thanks and worship to the Lord everyday, and not fret about which day others are doing the same.

[*FFC*]

It doesnt matter to me if its Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday...Sunday just works better for me. I like to think of Sunday as the day the Lord arose from the grave.. Lets celebrate that.


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 


I would rather just be an everyday Christian and not just a "sabbath" Christian. Who cares what day it is... lets just give thanks and worship to the Lord everyday, and not fret about which day others are doing the same.

I agree, I just don't understand why a huge majority choose tradition over the Word... But yes I do agree, an every day Christian not a one day a week Christian

[gonzo]

A Christian is a Christian every day...........not only on days that are convenient to be a Christian.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.  For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.  For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.  For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.  Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offense. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."  Romans 14 KJV

The point of this chapter isn't to tell us what is right and wrong (Saturday vs. Sunday, Clean meat vs. Unclean Meat, etc..), but to simply point out that we are not to judge others because we will all have to answer personally to God at the judgement. We all need to be convinced, or convicted, in our own beliefs.  The main thing to keep in mind is that we don't turn a non-believer (someone that believes differently from me/us) away from God because we are not willing to accepth them as they are as Christ does.  Christ spent time with prostitutes, but He never said that prostitution was acceptable.  We must accept people with different beliefs, but that doesn't mean that all of the different beliefs are correct or truth.  The last verse in the chapter really hits home, if I do something that I am unsure of, and it isn't in faith, it is sin.

[gotrocks]

I'm going to have to catch up a little bit more on this thread since I have been away for a while but I do have to put my 2 cents in on the Sabbath vs. Sunday question.

I worship on Saturday (Sabbath) because that is the day the God set aside at the beginning of the earth.  Why is the Sabbath issue looked at so lightly by many.  Do you say "oh well as long as I'm good most of the time it won't matter if I sin this time because I know God will forgive me".  No.  You don't through his lays fo us to the side.  He made that a law.  If it wasn't important he would've said so.  I like to think of myself as someone who worships Him all week long and isn't just a "one day Christian".  God told me through his Ten Commandments that it was important so I am going to keep it, not because E. G. White said we should or some Pope in the Catholic who changed it so many years ago. 

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to condemn anyone here I just want people to think about it.  Why is it that that Law directly from God himself Written by God is not taken seriously.  He wants me to put a day aside for Him in my week, and only for Him.  You should want to fallow him and keep all of His laws of course through any other day but that one thing was important enough that He gave it to us. 

Anyhow blackdiamond if you want to step in and maybe help me out on this one, I might not be explaining it the best.  I just moved and when I find my Bible I will dig up my references that I have on the Sabbath.

[blackdiamond [OP]]

I think that I have put in more than my    so far and it will likely be more beneficial to look at things from a different perspective than what I think, we have already gone around that tree more than once.  When you find your Bible post up and I will be excited to see what you think.

[gotrocks]

I just want everyone to know though (while I'm looking for my post) I don't think anything less about people that choose to worship on Sunday.  I am happy when people come to know Christ and choose to fallow Him.  That is what is most important and God will be our judge in the end.  I just hope that I am able to witness to others in a good way and not push people away by what I might say or actions that I might have.

[kneedownnate]

I'm a member of the Church of Kneedownnate.  The pastor kicks ass and shares the same views as me......or lack thereof.  I believe there's something bigger, but if there are so many different religions then how can one point at all the others and say they're wrong?  I feel that the best gift or biggest influence we are given is a mind of our own, to be able to understand the difference between right and wrong and act accordingly.  I was raised to treat people how I wanted to be treated, and live my life in a clean, decent manner.  If I live a life of debauchery or maltreatment then I should expect an after-life of the same.  My parents basically said that we didn't need to go to church and surrender some of our money to the church just to solidify our place in heaven, and if we lead a good clean life and didnt harm others then we would have just as much chance of getting into heaven as anybody else.  I've seen too many religious people say they can basically do what they want as long as they ask for repent(?) before they die.  BULL!!  God or whoever gave me a brain to be able to realize right and wrong and be able to make my own decisions, not rely on a book or books to tell me how to live my life.  My church is in session 24 hours a day, not just for a short while one or two days a week.

And to answer your question, yes that means if I'm mean to you I fully expect you to be mean to me, and vice-versa......