What do you think of Christ?

[supermat]

I'm with you Chim, I too don't believe that we're kaput. bd, where did you get that from? PM me or post, I'm curious. If you want to put some more doctrine stuff on here that's really cool, if we want to keep this focused then PM or shoot me an email... [email protected]  Chim, you mind of we go off track on this topic? Its your thread afterall. I believe that its very clear what happens. Those who didn't choose to believe will see the error of their ways and be cast into hell, plain and simple. Its nasty but its all spelled out for you, just read it.

Matt

[MR_DIY]

I have grown up Southern Baptist for the most part.  either that or we would go to a non demoninatonal church.

I believe that you must be saved to get in Heaven and if you are not then when you die you go to Hell.  It scares me to see how many people out there simply do not believe in Him.  I'lll pray for those.  thanks for asking the ? though guys 

[chim]

We arent going to far off topic in my opinion..  Basically we are talking about what Christ taught and that has a lot to do with who he is. I think it was BlackDiamond who said the non-believers are Caput finished done.. Im not sure if thats a Seventh Day teaching or not? But in orthodox Christianity its always been Heaven or Hell...  I know as a Mormon I believed that only really bad people went to Hell like Hitler and those types, but then again it wasnt really Hell it was outer darkness..  otherwise it was just a lesser kingdom than those who were faithful saints.

One thing that is very common with non-Christian organizations or "cults" is that they use the same Christian terminology but attached to those terms are completely different meanings..  Thats how most people get sucked in, they think it sounds good.. then as they go they get indoctrinated with more false teachings. Its like boiling a frog...  All these organizations or cults will make Christ out to be less than he is, and he is nothing less than the Son of God, God himself!

This thread is open to wherever it goes... I have found its never my plan, but Gods.

[blackdiamond]

I will have to get out the references and likely push the 1,100 word limit tonight if I get time, but here is the SDA doctrine of life after death in a nut shell.

Righteous and wicked that die all go to Hades (the same place) which is actually is nothing more than being asleep (1st death).  When Christ returns (2nd coming) the righteous are raised and join the living righteous and go to heaven (meet Him in the air) and the living wicked are killed by the glory of the return.  The righteous go to heaven with Christ for the millenium (1000 years) to "study" the judgement and prove that God's judgement is just.  At the end of the 1000 years (satan is bound on the earth alone during this time) the new Jeruselem come down to the earth and the wicked are raised for the final battle between good and evil (this is where everyone gets their chance to acknowledge God and bend the knee).  The wicked are destroyed by fire and the result of their punishment, not the actual burning, lasts forever, you have to know the Greek for this.  The Bible says that sin will be gone forever, how can that be if sinners and the devil are still alive and burning?  Makes no sense to me, plus why would a loving God cause anyone pain for eternity?  The bottom line is that if you chose to not be in heaven (accept the free gift) you can be caput as I mentioned before.

I will provide more detail later...would it be better to post it on the religion thread?

[chim]

For over 100 years Noah warned the people of a great flood..  That was a great example of the longsuffering of God. Now for nearly 2000 years he has been warning us again....  Choose him and live with him eternally or not accept his free gift and suffer eternally.. I think 200o years of warning is a picture of a just loving God who has given us plenty of time to choose. Plus who are we to say what type of plan he should have..  the clay doesnt tell the potter what it should do.. we are here for him.. we are here according to his purpose. its not about us.. so if his plan involves ertnal hell for those who dont believe who are we to say thats not fair. or thats not just.... I thank God he has given us as much warning as he has... as far a how you laid out the plan of the end times..  I dont necessarily agree with all of it...  but regardless its not vital to our salvation...   

Let me ask you this though... Do you believe that Christs sacrifice was good enough to where once Im saved I am always saved, and I can never loose my salvation?

[blackdiamond]

Let me ask you this though... Do you believe that Christs sacrifice was good enough to where once Im saved I am always saved, and I can never loose my salvation?

Absolutely not, if for no other reason than it would take away my power of choice.  God gives me the power to choose Him and then not to choose Him later.  I know the "new" concept is Once Saved Always Saved IF Truly Saved, this is  :bull crap: in my opinon and a copout answer.  Adam and Eve started life perfect and sinless and were "saved" (or had eternal life) until they chose not to follow God.

I am sure that I posted some stuff on this on the other thread, not sure though.

[chim]

This one I have actually heard from SDA's. If what you say is true then there is a chance we could loose our salvation, even though Christ said it was Eternal Life, meaning forever, not just 3 months life, or 3 years life, or however long your good for....That makes me sad that people have to live in fear that they could loose their salvation!

[BLACKDOG]

This one I have actually heard from SDA's. If what you say is true then there is a chance we could loose our salvation, even though Christ said it was Eternal Life, meaning forever, not just 3 months life, or 3 years life, or however long your good for....That makes me sad that people have to live in fear that they could loose their salvation!

what he said  

I to believe that Jesus was the one and only son of God, and that that only way to heaven is through him, and accepting his gift of salvation.  I actually go to the same church as supermat, southern baptist, but was raised in christian, nondenominational, and baptist churches.  I do not beleive that you can lose your salavation.  And I do beleive that everyone will live forever, either in heaven or hell, and all will  know God is real, and almighty

[chim]

Right on Blackdog, it looks as though you and Mat are strong in your faith.. thats a good thing. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be Christian but when it comes down to it, they live in total contradiction. Its good to see people who will stand up for their faith. I know as a mormon we were just warned to stay away from people who asked questions and wanted answers. But if we are confident in what we believe in, there should be nothing to worry about

[blackdiamond]

It is good to see that you all agree, now show me eternal punishment in hell from the Bible and explain how sin will be gone forever (A Bible promise) if all sinners and the devil are still alive?

[BLACKDOG]

here you go bd, from NIV

Revelation 20:7-15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

   

Satan's Doom
    7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
    11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

As for explaining how sin will be gone forever, I really can't say how that will be accomplished, but I think the Bible is pretty clear on the fact that the damned will be tormented forever. 

[blackdiamond]

I won't argue that your quote is perfectly accurate; however, there was some relavent meaning lost in the translation from the Greek to English.  All of the pastors in the SDA church study Greek and Hebrew (the languages that the Bible was originally written in) and I have been told that the original Greek word more closely implies the mean of the result will last forever.  I am trying to figure out a way to get the resources to prove this, I realize that he said she said doesn't cut it...I will work on it.

There is actually another place in the Bible where the same wording exists...I will look for that as well.

[dirtyskivies]

so im gonna be damned forever and burn in a gigantic fire with a bunch of other ignorant people who didnt realize jesus christ died for there sins? just because i didnt believe in what other people told me or what i read in a book? just like half the garbage you read in a magazine or a newspaper or on the television or internet today, that is actually false or twisted? you want me to believe in a story thats thousands of years old when bill clinton lied about monicas lips being on his...just years ago?

ill never know, and i dont trust stories or the media, so im gonna burn forever? if your god is that cruel...

[brainlessfool]

Well I realy like the little clips he makes. you know the little ones that go on carbs. 

[blackdiamond]

so im gonna be damned forever and burn in a gigantic fire with a bunch of other ignorant people who didnt realize jesus christ died for there sins? just because i didnt believe in what other people told me or what i read in a book? just like half the garbage you read in a magazine or a newspaper or on the television or internet today, that is actually false or twisted? you want me to believe in a story thats thousands of years old when bill clinton lied about monicas lips being on his...just years ago?

ill never know, and i dont trust stories or the media, so im gonna burn forever? if your god is that cruel...

I won't try and convince you about the Bible truth, but you don't have to worry about burning forever.  Do you have any idea what happens when you die or does it even matter to you?

[blackdiamond]

As clarification for my post above, the fire talked about in Revelation 20:10 (original Greek), according to experts of the Greek language, is better described as an "All Consuming" fire of which the results will last forever.

Anybody know Greek? Here is the text if anyone knows how to translate.

ΚΑΙ Ο ΔΙΑΒΟΛΟΣ Ο ΠΛΑΝΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΥΣ ΕΒΛΗΘΗ ΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΛΙΜΝΗΝ ΤΟΥ ΠΥΡΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΙΟΥ ΟΠΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΤΟ ΘΗΡΙΟΝ ΚΑΙ Ο ΨΕΥΔΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΒΑΣΑΝΙΣΘΗΣΟΝΤΑΙ ΗΜΕΡΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΝΥΚΤΟΣ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΑΙΩΝΑΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΙΩΝΩΝ
www.greekbible.com

Also, there seems to be a "contradiction" between Revelation 20:10 and the preceding verse.

"They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and teh beloved city.  And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."  Revelation 20:9

Devoured from www.dictionary.com
1. To eat up greedily. See Synonyms at eat.
2. To destroy, consume, or waste: Flames devoured the structure in minutes.
3. To take in eagerly: devour a novel.
4. To prey upon voraciously: was devoured by jealousy

I don't see any definition that would remotely imply everlasting torment (burning forever).

I can't find the verse, but the Bible talks about the smoke from Sodom and Gomorah going up forever (almost identical wording), but was Sodom completely destroyed or is it still smoking somewhere?

I am beginning to see why the doctrine of once-save-always-saved (if truly saved) is so important if I might burn forever in a lake of fire.  My only motivation to serve God would be absolute fear, it would be much easier if I couldn't lose my salvation.

I hope everyone is taking the opportunity provided by this thread/discussion to grow in their own relationship with God and not being offended by what is posted.  I am enjoying being questioned about my beliefs because it sparks and interst in me to learn more about God which is essential to me because I believe that I have to choose to accept Christ every day in a personal relationship to be saved.  Salvation does not go away, but I can't simply make a one time choice and then live my life however I want.

I was thinking tonight while taking my wife dinner at work that most people consider children blameless until they reach a age of accountability/understanding.  To me this means that if a child dies they are saved, so in the doctrine of once-save-always-saved everbody should be saved, right?  Or can they lose their salvation?

I'm being completely honest when I say that I can't comprehend serving a God out of love that takes my power of choice away (can't chose to not be saved) and will torture me forever in hell.

[blackdiamond]

Just for intelligent conversation and future reference...there is no "original" Bible written in Hebrew and/or Greek floating around somewhere or locked up in a museum.  The "Bible" as we know it was compiled by men long after all the authors of the various books were dead and buried.  The "Bible" is a creation of man, complied of numerous authors who all attest to the same thing...God.

As far as whipping out a section of Revelation and quoting it as an end of the world doom and gloom prophecy of chronological time, you guys need to read your "Bible" more, God is never about chronological time (chronos) but His time (kairos).

Sin and hell are simply defined as eternal separation from God and the lake of fire, sulfur stuff are just metaphors to mean it won't be pleasant.

Most churches and Christians are a waste of time IMO...condeming too many folks for the speck in their eye while hitting them over the head with the log in their own...Matthew 7 I believe.

I have a high regard for Christ, it is most of his followers I can't tolerate.

I'm sure I am included on your "hit" list, but I agree with alot of what you said. 

I don't make it a habit in everyday living to attack non-believers, but this thread is a great place to share ideas and grow.

You are correct that there isn't a Greek/Hebrew full addition Bible available, but there are some ancient manuscripts still around.  Some of the problems with the text are similar to some modern languages not having a direct translation for things.

[dirtyskivies]

I won't try and convince you about the Bible truth, but you don't have to worry about burning forever.  Do you have any idea what happens when you die or does it even matter to you?

when i die it will be like a fell asleep, permanently?  why are you so much better than a dolphin or a dog or a flea? you get to go to heaven, but they dont?  what about all the people who were rais3ed in a different culture and never heard of jesus, will they go to hell because of there ignorance?

by the way, im not argueing with you or being disrespectful, i hope i dont give anyone that impression. im sincerely asking these questions:D

[blackdiamond]

when i die it will be like a fell asleep, permanently?  why are you so much better than a dolphin or a dog or a flea? you get to go to heaven, but they dont?  what about all the people who were rais3ed in a different culture and never heard of jesus, will they go to hell because of there ignorance?

by the way, im not argueing with you or being disrespectful, i hope i dont give anyone that impression. im sincerely asking these questions:D

Actually, based upon my understanding of the Bible people do essentially fall asleep when they die, we are the same as other animals.  The Bible describes death as a sleep numerous times and the few examples of people that were raised from the dead seemingly never mentioned anything about an "afterlife," which I'm sure wouldn't be the case if they experienced anything while they were dead.  There are two deaths mentioned in the Bible, the 1st is the one that everyone, with the exception of the righteous who are alive at the second coming, dies and the 2nd is at the final judgement.  I believe that we are judged based upon our knowledge and what we do with it.  Every society has a "known" set of principals that people know to be right and wrong, I can only assume that if that is all a person knew then that is all that they are responsible for living by.  The more I know, the more responsibility that I have.  The catch is that I also believe that I am responsible for things that I had the opportunity to learn and didn't, but I'm not sure how to apply it exactly, but I can't simply not study the Bible and avoid learning anything new about God, a relationship with Him involves growth.

[mr4x42u]

ill never know, and i dont trust stories or the media, so im gonna burn forever? if your god is that cruel...

yes,,there so called god is that cruel...blind faith...and if you don't believe it your doomed...the good news is there must be lots of rock in hell...I'll see you there and we can wheel together just don't forget the beer...    

religion is hoopla...It just kills some people to believe that there is no true way of knowing how life was created on earth..Some super power created man,,thats about the most absurd thing I've ever herd..but believe what you will..I just wish they would keep that crap off the t.v..

[blackdiamond]

Here is what the Bible says:

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalms 9:17

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

THE WICKED DO NOT HAVE LIFE

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

John 10:27-28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 John 5:11 "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT FOR LAWBREAKERS

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." 2 Thess 1:9

Note: Punishment is everlasting destruction.

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED WILL BE COMPLETE

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Eze 18:4

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Ps 37:20

THE FIRE IS CALLED EVERLASTING FIRE; ITS EFFECTS ARE ETERNAL

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."  Matt 25:41

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the lad of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.  And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."  Jude 7

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would like ungodly..." 2 Peter 2:1-11

Revelation 20:9-11 "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.  And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophets are.  And they will be tormented day and night forever."

The Bible makes it very clear that God gives the righteous eternal life and the wicked are destroyed, consumed, dead, devoured and caput.  Sodom and Gomorrah (suffered eternal fire - Jude 7) was an example to us of the end destruction, is it still burning today? The effects of the fire are eternal, sin will not happen again.

[mr4x42u]

and what makes the bible different from a book that states you can loose 20pounds and eat what you want with out diet and exercise???nothing...there is nothing that back up a single word of anything in the bible,,,nothing...

And many other religions state many different things that contradict what your religion holds as truth..

[BLACKDOG]

Just for intelligent conversation and future reference...there is no "original" Bible written in Hebrew and/or Greek floating around somewhere or locked up in a museum.  The "Bible" as we know it was compiled by men long after all the authors of the various books were dead and buried.  The "Bible" is a creation of man, complied of numerous authors who all attest to the same thing...God.

As far as whipping out a section of Revelation and quoting it as an end of the world doom and gloom prophecy of chronological time, you guys need to read your "Bible" more, God is never about chronological time (chronos) but His time (kairos).

Sin and hell are simply defined as eternal separation from God and the lake of fire, sulfur stuff are just metaphors to mean it won't be pleasant.

Most churches and Christians are a waste of time IMO...condeming too many folks for the speck in their eye while hitting them over the head with the log in their own...Matthew 7 I believe.

I have a high regard for Christ, it is most of his followers I can't tolerate.

I too, am aware of the fact there isn't an "original" bible floating around.  And yes, what you say about time, and metaphors is com[pletely true, however, the quoting of revelations was appropriate, as bd asked where I got some of my info from.  I dont profess to know hardly anything about this subject, as I have said in other threads.  I'm simply stating my opinions, as requested. I too avoid condmemning people, as I know I can easily be condemned.  Butwe are not perfect. 

I am beginning to see why the doctrine of once-save-always-saved (if truly saved) is so important if I might burn forever in a lake of fire.  My only motivation to serve God would be absolute fear, it would be much easier if I couldn't lose my salvation.

but if you are going to cease to exist, what is the motivation to accept Christ in the first place?

I hope everyone is taking the opportunity provided by this thread/discussion to grow in their own relationship with God and not being offended by what is posted.  I am enjoying being questioned about my beliefs because it sparks and interst in me to learn more about God which is essential to me because I believe that I have to choose to accept Christ every day in a personal relationship to be saved.  Salvation does not go away, but I can't simply make a one time choice and then live my life however I want.

I beleive that when saved, you have a life changing experience.  You may still have the urge to do things that are wrong, but you will know they are wrong. If you feel no wrongd oing hase happened, but it goes against God's word, then it may be necessary to question your salvation.

I was thinking tonight while taking my wife dinner at work that most people consider children blameless until they reach a age of accountability/understanding.  To me this means that if a child dies they are saved, so in the doctrine of once-save-always-saved everbody should be saved, right?  Or can they lose their salvation?

I'm being completely honest when I say that I can't comprehend serving a God out of love that takes my power of choice away (can't chose to not be saved) and will torture me forever in hell.

I think two parts of it go hand in hand. bd, I know I'm dumbing this down to bare bones, but bear with me   We've gotten down to two "sides"

side "A"
Cannot lose salvation
Damned are tormented for eternity

side "B"
can lose, or choose to give up salvation
Damned are consumed, and no longer exist after time period.

sound ok?

its interesting how they work, the "side" that can lose their salvation has a time period on their torment, so it may not be so bad   whereas the side that cannot lose their salvation face the idea of no ending period of torment for the damned.  personally, I beleive Christ gave us a gift, and once given, he will not take it back.  We cannot earn our salvation correct?  but if we can lose are salvation that means we had to earn it, or have to earn it back again. doesnt make sense to me.  However, and I guess this is customizing my beleifs per se, but i do beleive you cannot lose you salvation, but you can give it up by choice.  However, if you are truly willing togive up your salvation, were you saved in the first place? because if you were, what could possibly make you want to give up your salvation?

Lookinjg forward to seeing wehre else this goes, and once again, no offense intended toward anyone, I enjoy hearing the arguments and responses. 

[blackdiamond]

(1) I am beginning to see why the doctrine of once-save-always-saved (if truly saved) is so important if I might burn forever in a lake of fire.  My only motivation to serve God would be absolute fear, it would be much easier if I couldn't lose my salvation.

but if you are going to cease to exist, what is the motivation to accept Christ in the first place?

Our motivation should be the same reason that we fall in love with someone on earth, our love is so strong that we can't imagine being separated from them.  God wants us to love, not fear Him.

(2) I hope everyone is taking the opportunity provided by this thread/discussion to grow in their own relationship with God and not being offended by what is posted.  I am enjoying being questioned about my beliefs because it sparks and interst in me to learn more about God which is essential to me because I believe that I have to choose to accept Christ every day in a personal relationship to be saved.  Salvation does not go away, but I can't simply make a one time choice and then live my life however I want.

I beleive that when saved, you have a life changing experience.  You may still have the urge to do things that are wrong, but you will know they are wrong. If you feel no wrongd oing hase happened, but it goes against God's word, then it may be necessary to question your salvation.

Have you ever been around a person that gets angry with God and chooses to have nothing to do with Him after a tramatic experinece, possibly the death of a child?

(3) I was thinking tonight while taking my wife dinner at work that most people consider children blameless until they reach a age of accountability/understanding.  To me this means that if a child dies they are saved, so in the doctrine of once-save-always-saved everbody should be saved, right?  Or can they lose their salvation?

I'm being completely honest when I say that I can't comprehend serving a God out of love that takes my power of choice away (can't chose to not be saved) and will torture me forever in hell.

I think two parts of it go hand in hand. bd, I know I'm dumbing this down to bare bones, but bear with me   We've gotten down to two "sides"

side "A"
Cannot lose salvation
Damned are tormented for eternity

side "B"
can lose, or choose to give up salvation
Damned are consumed, and no longer exist after time period.

sound ok?

its interesting how they work, the "side" that can lose their salvation has a time period on their torment, so it may not be so bad   whereas the side that cannot lose their salvation face the idea of no ending period of torment for the damned.  personally, I beleive Christ gave us a gift, and once given, he will not take it back.  We cannot earn our salvation correct?  but if we can lose are salvation that means we had to earn it, or have to earn it back again.  doesnt make sense to me.  However, and I guess this is customizing my beleifs per se, but i do beleive you cannot lose you salvation, but you can give it up by choice.  However, if you are truly willing togive up your salvation, were you saved in the first place? because if you were, what could possibly make you want to give up your salvation?

Could this be compared to a husband and wife being in love for 30 years and then for some reason one of them stops loving the other and leaves.  Is it not possible that they had true love when they were together?  The Bible compares our relationship with Christ to a marriage multiple times, a good marriage doesn't involve fear, only love and commitment.

[blackdiamond]

I was thinking last night that the Bible says that Christ took all of our sin upon Himself and suffered our punishment for us.  To keep it simple, He died so that we wouldn't have to.  The wages of sin is death, but Christ died for us so that we can have eternal life.  If I choose not the accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, then I will have to suffer the wages of sin which is death (or burning in hell forever), but if I accept Christ then He already suffered my punishment when He took all sin upon Himself.  The logical question is what happened to Christ when He died?  Is He, or a part of Him, still burning in hell for eternity?  For Him to take my place he had to suffer the same punishment as me.

Why is it that if we are saved and live forever in heaven it is called eternal life, but if we go to hell and live forever burning in hell it is called death and not eternal life? 

Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

[chim]

I looked into once saved always saved, and eternal hell... more proper to say Lake of Fire. The key word here that is used in both situations is "Eternal" and it doesnt matter if you look it up in the greek or the hebrew. Eternal is forever. Eternal life with God is not conditioned on our continuing works and repentance. The Lord suffered and died to cover ALL sins, past and present and future. I have heard many people say, well what if i accpet the Lord and be "Saved" doesnt that mean I can go do whatever I want and get away with it?  Not no..  but HEck No! Only God knows the heart and when someone is truly saved then the Lord comes into there body and their life and makes them new. The Holy Spirit indwelles them and changes them. THen the new believer changes and turns from his old ways and wont want to sin and wont want to do things to grieve the Holy Spirit. But of course we will mess up and of course we will fail.. the Lord knows this..  he is not going to take away our salvation because of it. If he did then his Word cant be relied upon. I know personally I fail all the time.. I ask the Lord to forgive me, not because Im worried about my salvation, but its me acknowledging that I did wrong, and that I want to turn away from it. The Lord has already forgivin me of what I have done and am going to do...  As far as the East is from the West thats how far my sins have been forgivin.

Now to those who say how can God be so cruel as to punish me for not believeing.. That is a just God..  if you have that much conscience to even think that then you are informed enough to weigh the options and decide to do something about it.. you have been warned.. at the last judgement you cant claim ignorant and say well i didnt know. That why this stuff is serious business and not something to mock or mess around with. God gives you plenty of opportunities to accept his message. His Bible has held up to thte test.. it has been proven! Dont read the magazines or peoples opinions.. read his Word! Ask God sincerely if he is real.. ask him that if he is real to make it clear to you...  if you sincerely ask God he will answer. I have not heard one instance where he has let anyone down.

Punishment is eternal, torment is eternal..  it may sound cruel.. but if you think it is then do something about it.. repent, accept Chrsit.. warn others! This is what you can do.. save people from eternal punishment. We should have a heart to want to see people be saved.. not just sit on the sidelines and watch... but be active.. do we want our friends and family punished.. no! But God is just.. we are his creation.. we are here for him. he can do whatever he wants with us.. who are we to dictate his plan.. just because we dont like part of it or dont believe part of it, doesnt make it not real!

I appriciate all the input that has been posted so far. God bless all of you.

[blackdiamond]

The Bible says the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.  Logically this means that if God doesn't grant us eternal life we must cease to exist unless we believe that we can exist separate from Him.  Revelation 20:9 says that we will be devoured (essentially caput), yet 20:10 seems to imply everlasting torment (we have to be alive to be tormented).

Why is mainstream christianity so excited about taking one verse in Revelation (which along with Daniel are the most symbolic books in the Bible) literally when there are so many verses in the Bible that say that we will die, be detroyed like Sodom, etc...

Is death defined as still being alive? 

[chim]

Its not taking one verse..  That just happens to be very obvious... and its not so much verse 10... 

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 

Thats pretty obvious to me! Because who are written in the lambs book of life? The believers in Christ... those who have been saved...  That means everyone else who is not a believer..  tought to say.. are cast into the lake of fire.. which lasts for eternity.

Romans 3:23 - says that all have sinned....

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

No where does it say Caput....  It doesnt even hint to Caput.. 

Death is the body.. not the spirit.

[blackdiamond]

No where does it say Caput....  It doesnt even hint to Caput.. 

Death is the body.. not the spirit.

I like the word caput when it was mentioned earlier in thread so I have chosen to use it to entertain myself.

Now you have opened the next can-of-worms with what makes up a human soul.

In Genesis God made man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and Man became a living soul.  I think most of us would agree that Adam didn't exist prior to creation (or he didn't need to be created), so he was a combination of dirt and the breath of life.  Adam was not a living soul prior to God giving him the breath of life so it seems reasonable that when he died he "returned to dust" as God told him that he would and God takes his breath of life (His life sustaining force) back.  I don't see how we are any different than Adam.

I realize that you don't define death this way, but the Bible clearly says that we will return to dust, not back to some "floaty" spirit existence that doesn't fall under the category of eternal life, somehow we exist forever (not "living" mind you) without God sustaining us. How logical is that?

[chim]

So if God takes back his "Life sustaining force" which is safe to say his "Soul", then he can do whatever he wants with it..  The good thing is that he tells us it goes to either one of two places! Thats pretty clear..  it goes right along with what you just said.

Since orthodox Christianity has always taught Heaven or Hell and the continuation of the soul, then the burden of proof is in your lap to prove that the unbelieving soul goes to eternal sleep, or caput.. or whatever. Its the same thing in Mormonism.. gospel principles have been taught for hundred upon hundred of years and someone comes along in the last 200 years and changes stuff and gives new meanings to scripture it make one wonder..  its like what Paul says in Galations 1: 6-9 If anyone, even an Angel from Heaven comes and teaches any other gospel other than what you have been taught let him be accursed!

This is all very clear and logical..  your confusing it by assuming that God didnt really mean that people would suffer eternally... God is not the God of confusion