How many religions...(Discussion Moved to Christ Thread)

[BLACKDOG]

If science is true,,and a person that is truly gay at birth,,born that way follows the bible,,,how does following the bible NOT make a person gay?Thats like saying if I Follow my owners manuel for my toyota it will never break down..There is not truth to that at all..

Science has been proven wrong, and there are not any solid consensus' that I am aware of on why people are Gay, and others arent.  If you have more info on this, please email it, pm it, or post it, as I am curious.  I do not beleive people are born gay.  I beleive that is a subconcious/concious choice, encouraged by the devil to cause stumbling blocks.  The devil is a crafty guy, and nothing is below him   the more people saved, the more he loses.  He knows he's gonna lose in the end, but he wants to bring as many people down with him as he possibly can, and he will do anything to do that.   

My beliefs are more a long these line (real simple) thanks Blackdog.  I changed it some. I added Murder instead of Kill and made a couple of other changes.

Cowboy's Ten Commandments.

(1) Just one God.

(2) Honor yer Ma & Pa.

(3) No telling tales

(4) Git yourself to Sunday meeting.

(5) Put nothin' before God.

(6) No foolin' around with another fellow's gal.

(7) No Murderin'

(8 ) Watch yer mouth.

(9) Don't take what ain't yers.

(10) Don't be hankerin' for yer buddy's stuff

I like it gonzo, didnt catch that at first keep it simple IMO

[mr4x42u]

Remember,,the bible was not written by god,,but by man,,and man makes mistakes,,,and the devil can influence anyone,,,so how do you know the whloe homosexual evil thing was not influencd by the devil..

And if the devil did influence a gay person,,why could that person still love god..And it seems in past lessons where the devil influencd a person to do sinful things it usally does not come to a lifetime of sin such as homosexuality.On the normal the bevil makes people sin,,such as commit murder,,or take gods name in vain..I just think its silly to be so blind by religion and not to look out for other awnsers or think that a person could be born that way..So if you do thing a person is not born gay,,what do you say when a baby is born with disorders,,such and down syndrome,,or other diease?Is that also the devil?/If babys are gods creations,,and god is perfect,,then babys should be born perfect,,or is that the devil too??

[crawlerdan]

also good questions,and alot of which i dont know how to answer,but i can tell you that religion has not blinded me personaly, i consider myself very open minded, so i take all things into consideration, and learn as much as i can about everything and make a theory based on my knowlage as a whole. my beleifs where not learned at church, i beleive what i do based on all things ive learned as an acumulative.i learned the basics in a church and have since modified it to take out the imperfections that i see, and obviously you see. im not against you bud, i totaly support you questioning beleifs and reality, im all for it.who knows, i could be wrong and every one else right. but my faithis all i have to go by, and to it i will remain true, based on what i have learned, not based on what i was told to do. keep up the speculation, it makes us all look deep inside.

[germ]

Just wondering what your guys opinion is on those who practice a different religion..say a guy prays to budda,,or allah,,,or any other religion,,id being a christian is really the right religion and the gate way to heven then what happenes to thos who believe in the other religion??do they get to go to heaven??  

I'm sure that there will be many people from different religous beliefs that will go to heaven. It has more to do with your commitment to God than the actual religion.

Also how do you judge a person such as a homosexual who happens to believe in god,,lives his live to every word in the bible,,,does god still sentence that person to damnation because he was a homo??

The bible is pretty specific about a union between man and woman. As far I as know, it does not mention homosexuality specifically, but I would think it is frowned upon by God.

There has been reasearch that homos have different brain wave functions then say a normal person..if the person who is gay can't help but to love the same sex

The research you speak of here is tentative at best. There is also research that shows that an alcoholic's brain works differently, from even a drug addicts, which are both different than someone who doesn't have these problems. Even smokers have different brain activity. This does not prove that they are wired this way and cannot help it.

I have a couple of freinds who for several years were gay/lesbian, and realized that they were going against God's word, and are now in commited relationships with the opposite sex. Doesn't mean they don't still find the same sex attractive, but they have made a choice to follow God's rules, and not succumb to their desires. Remember, humans by nature are sinful. We will follow the path of the most pleasure and least resistance unless we make the active choice to follow Gods rules.

Just seems like its wrong to judge a person that way..Yet got and churches have that right??

It is not our place as humans to judge others. This is Gods right. Granted, there are churches and individuals who will pass their own judgement on people, but they are out of line. They have no more ability to pass judgment than your dog. Unfortuantly, they feel they are in the right to do so, because of their percieved religious superiority. It's wrong.

Erik  

[crawlerdan]

well put erik

[BLACKDOG]

Remember,,the bible was not written by god,,but by man,,and man makes mistakes,,,and the devil can influence anyone,,,so how do you know the whloe homosexual evil thing was not influencd by the devil..
The Bible was wirtten by men yes, but it was divinely inspired.  Now it is easy to say :bull crap: on this, but it is true.  The Bible was written over a period of like 2K years i think? and there isnt a single mistake, it doesnt contradict itself, and there werent a lot of copies laying around, so that the later authors could make sure that they werent being cotradictory.  The Bible indicates many historic events that took place according to science, and is completely accurate on the historical part as well

And if the devil did influence a gay person,,why could that person still love god..And it seems in past lessons where the devil influencd a person to do sinful things it usally does not come to a lifetime of sin such as homosexuality.On the normal the bevil makes people sin,,such as commit murder,,or take gods name in vain.
Normally the devil does whatever he can to make people stumble, be it murder, homosexuality, taking the Lords name in vain, there are many things he can encourage people to do.  There is no "norm" that the devil follows
.I just think its silly to be so blind by religion and not to look out for other awnsers or think that a person could be born that way..So if you do thing a person is not born gay,,what do you say when a baby is born with disorders,,such and down syndrome,,or other diease?Is that also the devil?/If babys are gods creations,,and god is perfect,,then babys should be born perfect,,or is that the devil too??

I dont think it is fair for you to call me blinded by eligion, and not willing to look at other answers I asked for you to post up evidence in my last postin to you about the science that you were referring to.  I really doubt that it would change my beliefs, but I am more than willign to read it, and research it.  I have done some research on it in the past, and come to the conclusio nthat I am at right now.  Obviously I cannot explain everything, but a baby born with down syndrome has genetic anomalies, whereas the research I have found is tht gy people have no genetic anomalies.  God id perfect, and he could have made us all perfect, but then we would all be indentical, essentially paper dolls

[germ]

Blackdog

According to my beleifs, once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation.  If a person were to accept Christ, and then be gay, or turn into a mass murderer, people on earth may question a person salvation, but that is for God to decide.  If that person truly was saved, than he/she will still go to heaven, although they may have commited atrocities (the mass murderers) or disobeyed the Bible

I'd have to say I disagree with you on this point. I think a person can loose salvation even if they were saved at one time. If they choose to turn away from God, I believe thier salvation is questionable. Again, you're right in that it's God's decision. I'm just concerned that someone will follow this principal, believe they are saved, then go out and break all the rules believing they have salvation, when in fact they are disobeying God's laws. Part of forgivness, is to not repeat the same offense again. Just my 

Mr4x42u

If science is true,,and a person that is truly gay at birth,,born that way follows the bible,,,how does following the bible NOT make a person gay?Thats like saying if I Follow my owners manuel for my toyota it will never break down..There is not truth to that at all..

Again, I question the validity of the science you speak of. Following the Bible teaches you the rules by which God wants us to live by. People have to make an active choice to follow God and his Laws, or again, by nature we will slip into doing what is wrong.

Remember,,the bible was not written by god,,but by man,,and man makes mistakes,,,and the devil can influence anyone,,,so how do you know the whloe homosexual evil thing was not influencd by the devil..

You make a good point here, but also remember the God can influence people as well, and those who wrote the books of the Bible were inspired by God.

And if the devil did influence a gay person,,why could that person still love god..

Just because the devil influences someone, does not mean their whole lives are spent doing the devils work. I am temped by the devil on a daily basis, as I'm fairly sure the other people who claim belief in God are. I just make sure that I try and recognize this tempation and turn away from it. Am I always right...No way! I make as many, if not more mistakes than anyone else. Just because I have a strong belief in God, does not mean that I'm not tempted and influenced by Satan. Actually, sometimes I think I'm tempted more because of my belief in God.

what do you say when a baby is born with disorders,,such and down syndrome,,or other diease?Is that also the devil?/If babys are gods creations,,and god is perfect,,then babys should be born perfect,,or is that the devil too??

God does not manipulate or control each and every occurance in the world. I believe that having a child is a miracle granted by God, but I also know there is a huge amount of biology involved. (again, I don't think belief in God and evolution are mutually exclusive). They (whoever "they" are) estimate that only 10-15% of conceptions actually go on to develop a viable fetus. Of those, there are a large percent who will not make it to delivery. Of those, there is also a percent who are not capable of sustaining life do to problems that occur because of the biology of life.

Erik

[mr4x42u]

I was not trying to be unfair,,I was just saying  its my experiance with those into religion and many are blind to it..Honestly to say there is a god,,whom of wich other then a book has created all the earth,,and there is no solid evidence of this is pretty far fetched..thats all..  All I'm getting at is to say,,sure there could or could not be a god is fair,,,for me to say there is not,,is unfair as is you to say there is a god is also unfair,,You go by what you read and I'm sure mostly taught by your parents that there is a god..yet,,realistcly you have no proof other then somthing had to have created every thing on earth,,so there must be a god is just as unfair....

I have no reasearch to back up that gays are born gay,,It was a program on tv that showed the possibility that gays have a different brain pattern..if you look at a human brain,,the coils that span over the brain seem to be more on a gay person then a what we would call a normal person..thats all..I really don't care to go into it,,its why they call it reasearch..And as all reasearch goes,,there has not been reasearch that said,,YES there is a god,,so for religion  to tell a person
there will be dammed for being gay is also wrong..Its a catch 22 i guess..

[blackdiamond]

The topic on this thread has migrated into difficult territory.  I'm impressed that everyone is still being civil as this is a very touchy topic.  Props to all!      

The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is sin, I can get the texts later (maybe tonight) if people want to see them.  Sodom (Root Word for something else) and Gomorrah (Spelling?) was destroyed because of the wickedness that the Bible portrays as sexual sin.  If you remember the story, the mob wanted to rape the visitors and instead Lot offered them his daughter, but they refused.

I don't know if people are born gay (if this is the case it is a direct result of sin and not caused by God) or not (my uncle is gay so I have thought about this a lot over the years), but God expects that we avoid sin.  If we choose to commit sin we are actively choosing to follow Satan and we will not be saved.  This is the same for all sins, including murder, homosexuality, etc...  All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but if we are actively seeking to follow His Word (commands) then we are covered by His blood and can be saved.  No matter what the sin, if we are willingly making the choice to do evil we are rejecting Christ and his blood.

God gave us the power to choose and this means that we have to power to choose to accept Christ and His blood (this requires us to follow His guidelines to the best of our ability) or we can choose to not accept Him and choose not to be saved.  If you believe in "once saved always saved" you in essence believe that we can make a decision that takes away our power of choice.  What happens is I decide that I don't want to be saved anymore?  Would God force me to be in heaven?

I have talked to many people about this subject.  My conclusion is this: if there was a person that was born feeling that they had the need to murder, we would expect that they control themselves and resist the temptation so why should it be any different with homosexuality?  For me the "grey" area is transgender people that often have their sex chosen as children before their hormones kicked in.  I saw a TV show in this and I don't know what to do with it.

My question is this: Is it possible to have a true relationship with God if we are deliberately choosing to go against His will, laws, commands and Word.  Everyone makes mistakes and that is when His blood can cover us, but by willfully choose to go against Him we are making the choice to give up salvation.

Make any sense?

[mr4x42u]

You make a good point here, but also remember the God can influence people as well, and those who wrote the books of the Bible were inspired by God.

according to religion,,,the devil can influance as well,,,so its very possible that some of the bible was written by those influencd by the devil correct,,,and if god has the power then to over power the devin in those who have writtn the bible,,then god should have the power to influance all who walk the earth,,as he did back then..

[blackdiamond]

according to religion,,,the devil can influance as well,,,so its very possible that some of the bible was written by those influencd by the devil correct,,,and if god has the power then to over power the devin in those who have writtn the bible,,then god should have the power to influance all who walk the earth,,as he did back then..

There isn't any scientific basis for proving that Satan didn't influence the Bible, people who believe in the Bible must have faith that His Word is True.  Proving the validity of the Bible in total is impossible, but some aspects of it can be checked against world history and verified.  You are correct, if a person doesn't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it has no meaning for them.  I, for one, believe that it does.

It is similar to having faith that the owners manual for your car or truck wasn't influenced by the mechanic that will benefit from the repair work if you don't provide proper maintenance.

[mr4x42u]

I understand what you say blackdiamond,,however I can't see how a gay person can say i (they can;t help that there gay)
when they feel its not a path they have choosen,,its just a way they feel,,so if this gay person feels they love god,,and want to go to heaven,,are they to go against there heart,,and not love in in life,,are they to deny themselfs happyness with a partner because they want to go to heaven,,,are they to not love because they want to go to heaven??To me a god that has unconditional love would not deny a person access to heaven because of there feeling that most say thay can't help to love the same sex..Yea,,i think being a guy guy action is gross,,(sorry,,chick on chick action is hot!! ) but in my mind a god would not to that to a good natured person simply because they choose the same sex as a life partner..i just don't buy into it..

[mr4x42u]

Let me ask this,,,,what about life on other planets??Possible or not?

If so how does god fit into this?

I think yes,,there is,,or could be or was life on other plantes at one time,,,With the vast amount of space out there its hard to believe that there could not be micro orginisms on another planets somewhere..

[mr4x42u]

And just as a note of how I really feel about god,,,,IF there really is a god,,and we do have free will,,then weather you sin or not you will be forgiven..If there is a god,,and he really does have unconditional love for us,,then it makes no mater what sex we are,,gay or not,,religious or not,,childmolester,,killer,,theif whatever,,we will all go to heaven..If there is a god then he understands some people are f'd up by life,,parents,,preists that do harm to people and he understands that free will can be over taken by evil,,its with this understanding that all will go to heaven..I really think we are ment to live our life to its fullest,,fun,,good and to make the most out of it that we can..I really don't think it will happen,,but if there is a god,,then thats what will happen,,it won't matter that you ent to church every sunday,,and said your prayers and lived your life by the 10 commandment to the T..It all reallu won't matter,,,thats the point of free will and uncnditional love..Its exactly that,,unconditional love and nothing else matters...But i still don'tthink there is a god,,al that was what if's..

[blackdiamond]

mr4x42u,

You're asking some great but difficult questions.  I do not believe that God requires that we not love anyone, but He does require that we not act on some feelings that we have.  God doesn't condemn two men having brotherly love towards each other (is anything strong than family bonds?), the problem is when sexuality becomes part of the relationship.

As for life on other planets, I believe that it does exist.  Everything in the universe was created by God.  I do believe that they are watching what goes on on this planet, but I do not believe that they are doing fly-bys in UFOs to get a closer look.  This could be another 20 pages of discussion and I honestly don't know enough of the facts to defend my position in an intelligent way.  For me this isn't a salvation issue so I have not yet done the research.

[crawlerdan]

im impressed with the overall maturity that is being displayed on this topic, its hard for alot of people to discuss this withouot becomeing defensive. iff the entire plantet could converse as we have been, i think that we'd be in a lot better position globally. to all involved

[BLACKDOG]

Blackdog
I'd have to say I disagree with you on this point. I think a person can loose salvation even if they were saved at one time. If they choose to turn away from God, I believe thier salvation is questionable. Again, you're right in that it's God's decision. I'm just concerned that someone will follow this principal, believe they are saved, then go out and break all the rules believing they have salvation, when in fact they are disobeying God's laws. Part of forgivness, is to not repeat the same offense again. Just my 

germ, I guess I should clarify a little.  If a person were to get saved, for some reason fall away from church and God, and die, I am sure they would retain their salvation.  I believe that a person who beleives they have salvation so they can do whatever they want needs to question their own faith, because they are obviously not following God.  I bleeive in once saved always saved, bu tif someone does what ever they want because they are saved, I wouldnt be sure if they were saved in the first place. Does that help clarify?

[germ]

Let me ask this,,,,what about life on other planets??Possible or not?

I think it would be pretty arogant of us to think we are the only intelligent life in the universe. So in short, yes, I think it is very possible, and actually probable that there is other life in the universe.

I think God created it as well. Some say that the earth is the test of good and evil, and they are waiting to see the outcome. I on the other hand have no idea what is out there. Maybe someday I'll find out.

And just as a note of how I really feel about god,,,,IF there really is a god,,and we do have free will,,then weather you sin or not you will be forgiven..If there is a god,,and he really does have unconditional love for us,,then it makes no mater what sex we are,,gay or not,,religious or not,,childmolester,,killer,,theif whatever,,we will all go to heaven..If there is a god then he understands some people are f'd up by life,,parents,,preists that do harm to people and he understands that free will can be over taken by evil,,its with this understanding that all will go to heaven..I really think we are ment to live our life to its fullest,,fun,,good and to make the most out of it that we can..

In a sense, I think your right. A person can do all these things and still go to Heaven. There is one point I think that your missing however, and that point is that you must, at some point in your life, accept Jesus as your saviour, and ask for forgiveness. God will "wash away" all your sins of the past, and grant you eternal salvation if you ask. Part of that however is that you must turn away from your life of sin, and begin to follow God's inspiration. It's really that simple (imho). Does God require us to be perfect? No way! If that were the case, none of us would ever make it to Heaven (I sure wouldn't). All he asks is that we try our best to follow his guidance, and ask for forgiveness when we fall short.

[germ]

Quote from: germ on Today at 11:41:12 AM
Blackdog
I'd have to say I disagree with you on this point. I think a person can loose salvation even if they were saved at one time. If they choose to turn away from God, I believe thier salvation is questionable. Again, you're right in that it's God's decision. I'm just concerned that someone will follow this principal, believe they are saved, then go out and break all the rules believing they have salvation, when in fact they are disobeying God's laws. Part of forgivness, is to not repeat the same offense again. Just my   

germ, I guess I should clarify a little.  If a person were to get saved, for some reason fall away from church and God, and die, I am sure they would retain their salvation.  I believe that a person who beleives they have salvation so they can do whatever they want needs to question their own faith, because they are obviously not following God.  I bleeive in once saved always saved, bu tif someone does what ever they want because they are saved, I wouldnt be sure if they were saved in the first place. Does that help clarify?

I certainly don't mean to nit-pick, and as you well know, I'm not judging. Just sharing my viewpoint.

The example I've thought of to clarify my position is this...

You can gain employment by agreeing to show up and do the job that someone wants done. For that, you will recieve a paycheck. If you choose to not show up, or do the tasks that are given to you, you will end up un-employed, which means no more paycheck. Just because you have a job does not mean you will have it forever, expecially if you don't do what is required to maintain that job.

Likewise, you can gain salvation (employemt/paycheck in my example) by agreeing with God that you will follow his word (doing the job in my example), and for that you will recieve salvation. If you choose to not follow his word, then he has every right to not give you that salvation (employment/paycheck). Does that make sense?

I do believe and agree with you that if you have a change of heart, and return to God and ask his forgiveness that he will grant it without question, and as long as you stay right with God your salvation is assured. I don't believe that God is hard-hearted and would say: "Nope, you screwed up, and now your lost forever". Doesn't sound like the God I know.

Hope that clarify's my thoughts some. Sorry if I came accross as being short before.

Erik

[mr4x42u]

. There is one point I think that your missing however, and that point is that you must, at some point in your life, accept Jesus as your saviour, and ask for forgiveness. God will "wash away" all your sins of the past, and grant you eternal salvation if you ask. Part of that however is that you must turn away from your life of sin, and begin to follow God's inspiration. It's really that simple (imho). Does God require us to be perfect? No way! If that were the case, none of us would ever make it to Heaven (I sure wouldn't). All he asks is that we try our best to follow his guidance, and ask for forgiveness when we fall short.

see,,thats the part i will or won't accept untill  this god that you all say is so real can accept that not all can follow on blind faith..I know i can't..It takes a bit more for me to get excited about religionthe just word,,faith,,or a book that could have been written by any wack job with a good sence of humor..I think IF this god is all knowing then he can understand this and accept it..why?Because he will know that I lived my life by doing what I felt deep down what was and is right by the person I have grown into...It really is too bad that so many have died due to the harsh reality of religion..To me its also sad to know there are people locked up deemed as crazy because they have voices in there head,,yet if its the voice of god,,its ok..its funny how in this world on one hand one could be crazy,,yet if its about god,,its understandable..

[Rocksurfer]

Just wondering what your guys opinion is on those who practice a different religion..say a guy prays to budda,,or allah,,,or any other religion,,id being a christian is really the right religion and the gate way to heven then what happenes to thos who believe in the other religion??do they get to go to heaven?? 


Also how do you judge a person such as a homosexual who happens to believe in god,,lives his live to every word in the bible,,,does god still sentence that person to damnation because he was a homo??If god is so loving why send a person to damnation because of there sexuality??There has been reasearch that homos have different brain wave functions then say a normal person..if the person who is gay can't help but to love the same sex is it right,,even by gods standards to send that [person to damnation because he or she can't help to be loved by the same sex...Kind of falls out of line with the do unto others don't it??Just seems like its wrong to judge a person that way..Yet got and churches have that right??

I go by this theory, Regardless  of the god even the bible says you are to worship one god and as long as you are guided by those lines and stay true to your god no matter what you call him you'll be welcome in his home. As far as I am concerned your body is your temple and you worship from there not in some building.

[germ]

see,,thats the part i will or won't accept untill  this god that you all say is so real can accept that not all can follow on blind faith..I know i can't..It takes a bit more for me to get excited about religionthe just word,,faith,,or a book that could have been written by any wack job with a good sence of humor..I think IF this god is all knowing then he can understand this and accept it..why?Because he will know that I lived my life by doing what I felt deep down what was and is right by the person I have grown into...

Again sir, you bring up some good and valid points.

I do think that God will look at the overall quality of your life when judgment day arrives, and I think you will recieve "credit" for all the good things you do, and the general goodness of your character. I also think however that the Bible spells out fairly clearly what is needed for eternal salvation. Without whipping a dead horse, it lies in accepting Jesus as your savior and asking forgivness for your sins. I do believe that this is a key component to salvation.

As for the Bible, it has been written by several people over a period of time. There is not one person who wrote it. While there may be some inconsistencies in specific texts (as you pointed out in a previous post), the overall consistency between multiple authors, and the principals it speaks to, is what makes me believe that there is a Divine guidance to the writings. There is also significant historic and archeological evidence to support it's accuracy.

It really is too bad that so many have died due to the harsh reality of religion..

Your absolutly right. There are probably more people who have died in the name of religion than for any other single cause. It is truly unfortunate. The problem is that there are and have been people who have felt that they had to convert others, even if it means killing them. I don't believe this is what God had in mind when he said to spread the good word.

To me its also sad to know there are people locked up deemed as crazy because they have voices in there head,,yet if its the voice of god,,its ok..its funny how in this world on one hand one could be crazy,,yet if its about god,,its understandable..

Actually, this is an over-simplification and basically incorrect. As I work in medicine, and have admitted several people who have voices in their heads, I can tell you that just because they have auditory hallucinations about God (or from God or anything else for that matter) does not change their diagnosis. Many believe they are getting special messages from God (or the TV, radio, billboards etc.) that no one else can recieve. These messages usually revolve around being instructed to do a specific task (i.e kill themselves or someone else).

There are several key components to making the diagnosis of Schizophrenia that must be present. There also must be delusions (fixed, false belief even when presented with convicing evidence to the contrary), bizarre behavior (unusual movements, self mutilation etc), inability to care for themselves (eating, dressing, bathing etc) and many others. It is clearly spelled out in the DSM IV (Diagnositic and Statistical Manual 4th edition - published by the American Acadamy of Psychiatrists), and one must meet ALL the criteria, not just a few. There is also a key component in that they have to meet the standard of "being a danger to themselves or others" in order to be admitted against their will (5150) in Ca. People can have a wide range of unusual behavior and beliefs and not meet the criteria for psychiatric disorder.

I can elaborate more if you wish, but I think that gets the point accross.

Please keep bringing up your questions/comments, as I'm enjoying this discussion.

Erik

[synwars]

What is going on here??? We go from defending our faith and discussing various issues and using quotations from the Bible to arguing with some unreasonable person as to whether or not God accepts homosexuality. WHATEVER the case, USE THE BIBLE. The Bible is "inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight..." (2 Tim 3:16) Each writer was inspired by God, as in completely enveloped by his HOLY SPIRIT while writting each of the books of the Bible, so that each of God's commands and principles could be recorded accurately WITHOUT the influence of the Devil. If you have the Holy Spirit working with in you, you are being protected from the influence of Satan. Therefore, that is why the Bible is the only book that is "alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit... and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb 4:12) Even Jesus declared, "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)

Taking in knowledge of God and Jesus Christ is the only way to gain everlasting life. (John 17:3) Otherwise you can have all the faith in the world, but if you don't act according to that knowledge, you'll still be dead. (James 2:24-26) So what knowledge? The ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ is a start, but that's not all. There is much much more.

For instance, if God accepts homosexuality, please explain what Paul was talking about at 1 Cor 6:9,10 when he said, "What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR MEN KEPT FOR UNNATURAL PURPOSES, NOR MEN WHO LIE WITH MEN, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom."

And if God is okay with it, why did he include this command in the MLC?? " "'And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing. "'And you must not give your emission to any beast to become unclean by it, and a woman should not stand before a beast to have connection with it. It is a violation of what is natural. "'Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, because by all these things the nations whom I am sending out from before YOU have made themselves unclean." (Lev 18:22-24)

And what about Jude 7??? "So too Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

STOP deviating from the scriptures. God is love, but he is not stupid. He has perfect justice and he WILL use it at his appropriate time. Who are we to say who he can and cannot accept? He did create us after all. People CLAIM to love God, but are they really showing their love to him by willfully disregarding his commands and principles found in his word?

Oh and okay, let's listen to what is "in our hearts" instead of God, what do you "feel"?

"For from inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness, deceit, loose conduct, an envious eye, blasphemy, haughtiness, unreasonableness. All these wicked things issue forth from within and defile a man." (Mark 7:21-23)

[crawlerdan]

right on!

[blackdiamond]

I also say RIGHT ON with the exception that I don't think that questioning God or the validity of the Bible makes a person unreasonable.  Everyone has to develop a comfort level, or belief, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.  I believe, but I still look for scientific proof that it is true.  Right now I am trying to get a book that I saw online (don't remember the specific information) that is 72 pages of scientific/historical proof of the Bible.  I don't know exactly what is in it or if I will believe or agree with it, but I am very interested to see what it has to say.  Blind faith is great, but God didn't make us intellegent being to believe without seeking knowledge and proof where possible.

[blackdiamond]

I think that salvation is like a gift box sitting on the kitchen table.  It is our choice to take it with us each day or leave it at home.  We have to choose every day to accept Christ's blood.  The Bible talks about the path to righteous being narrow, how could that be if all I had to do was accept His salvation and then never worry about it again?

[Rocksurfer]

The whole religion issue is a belief that an afterlife even exists. Why do you call it faith. You have faith that what you are reading really exists in the fist place.There are so many different religions out who's to say which one is the "one" that you should follow. I think any religion that has ever condoned killing someone for any reason is not a true religion. Defending yourself is one thing but to send out your lets say Knights in shinning armor or your jihad army to coerce, conquer and convert is wrong and not what any god would want or tolerate.  Don't give me this BS that it's in gods plan to force anyone to do anything, don't tell me what you think is right from reading the bible, I have read it and couldn't continue because it seems that every other page contradicts what the other page says. On top of that the way I read some stuff it can be interrupted different too. Now don't get me wrong I do believe, I have faith, but I have no faith in organized money grubbing churches that dictate to you what is to be interrupted from their bible. I may not be the most versed in the bible but I do know what a contradiction is, and the bible is littered with them. I gave up years ago trying to make head or tails of it but do follow the parts that are the important....... the 10 commandments. I was born Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school  dropped out of that scene and I won't bash you for still following that course.  I felt that god would not thrust you upon the earth and then leave you to your own choices and paths without help and prayer has never got me anywhere. So then I found a religion that said they still did have contact with god through a prophet, joined up with them and found to be as hypocritical as any other. I finally have found guidance within myself and have lived my life in this manner. I guide my life not some pontiff that dictates what he/she thinks I should or should not do. I have one question, if the highest member of your church demanded that you stop wheelin' because you are destroying gods land would you stop?

I'm not trying to start anything but these are my feelings about "organized" religions only and have nothing to do with your faith or beliefs, just that I cannot be lead like a lamb to slaughter, blindly following what one person decides what I should and should not do. Sorry, I have one more question for you and this would be something that a certain religion already has deemed as murder in a basic since: do you use a condom, birth control of any kind, abortion? If you do you're a killer and will suffer for it. I feel I will be judged not on what church I attended but on me, what I did in my life and the decisions I made. I may mess up but if everyone was condemned on messing up here and there nobody would make it to heaven or whatever it is truely called. Don't try and draw me into a fight over this because it won't work, you'll just get more of what I feel and nothing more. I won't quote scripture and I won't fight over who gets to go and who doesn't, it's not my or your decision as to who gets there and who doesn't. If you're gay it's your choice and if god deems it unworthy then you'll have to deal with it. If it turns out that there is nothing when you die but death then so be it. There will be only one way to find out and we all will eventually get there and find out. You go to church and pray and pay, I'll be sitting on a hill somewhere pondering life and death, your happy.... so am I.  

[blackdiamond]

Rocksurfer,

You said that you agree/follow the principles of the 10 commandments, since you were raised Catholic, which version do you go with?

I would agree that many things in the Bible seem like contradictions, but usually with study it is possible to understand what the true meaning is.  I wish that you would post some of the contradictions that you are talking about so that I could check them out for myself.  I enjoy trying to make sense of these types of things.

As for all organized religion being bad, I strongly disagree with you.  It would be easy for me to say that the SDA church has not ever condoned harming people for not believing what the church teaches, or for any other reason; however, because the church member are sinful humans I'm sure we have just as many hipocritical people as every other church.

The purpose of an organized church is to provide a place to worship God with a church family that provides spiritual support just like a biological family provides support.  Any church that professes to have all knowledge and does not accept believers that are at different relationship and knowledge levels can be very dangerous.

Christians are not to judge anyone and accept all as Christ would.  If you are ever treated poorly by a Christian, they are not acting in accordance with the will of God.



Now back to a previous topic for a minute.

Why is it that many Christians are so quick to toss out the 10 Commandments when they almost all agree with the principle that are in 9 of the 10 (Not everyone follows the 4th Commandment to the letter of the law) when the 4th commandment was actually instituted at Creation for man to follow?  Even without the 10 Commandments, nearly every Christian agrees with the other 9 and seemingly disreguards the commandments based almost entirely on the 4th commandment.

[dirtbag]

9 pages of worthlessness

[blackdiamond]

Did you actually read all, or any, of it?  I should think that any topic that goes for 9 pages must have some significance for a few people.  I will admit that this thread isn't for everyone, but hey...none of them are.