More problems, head gasket mabye??

[BLACKDOG]

Took it to the shop, guy seemed to know what he was talkin about.  He said it looked like water had passed through the gasket on the drivers side.  He is gonna vacuum test it, pressure test it, and resurface it.  His bet was that the head was warped, abnd the gasket was not fitting properly as a result.  Hopefully that is the only thing wrong, and the resurfacing will fix it

[Brandon]

was it Bob, the old guy?

[BLACKDOG]

Yeah it was.  He explained everything he was going to do, was very helpful.  Thanks for sendin me over there, B.

[Brandon]

and the 5 million dollar question..

what's it gonna cost? Did ya give him the valve seals?

[BLACKDOG]

he's gonna do the two tests and the resurfacing for 165 or so.  He said that to redo the valves would cause nmore problems unless they need it, since then the top end would pretty much have the compression of a 0 miles engine, and the bottom end would still be a 187,000 mile engine.  Hopefully it doesnt need it.   He is gonna check the valves for me, make sure that the seals arent going egg shaped

[FATB0Y]

he is right I've done that B-4 and it caused the engine to use oil

[BLACKDOG]

yeah, he said that it would cause more problems than it is worth, and he wouldnt recommend it, unless I was replacing/rebuilding the enitre engine, which I AM NOT!!

[Brandon]

yea but toyota's don't wear much on the bottom end generally. Anyway - when do ya get em back?

[BLACKDOG]

he said call today after 3 and he'll be able to tell me something hopefuly today Then I will prolly take friday off, and put it all back together

[FATB0Y]

cool 

[BLACKDOG]

[BLACKDOG]

Diagnosis is in, $240 is the damage, pressure tested good, two weak chambers were exposed in the vacuum test that they are gonna fix, and the heads will be resurfaced.   hopefullly, it was all of the above that caused the problems, and not the block    

[FATB0Y]

I have descovered from my experence w/heads ya need 2 replace the head bolts jus my 

[Brandon]

weak chambers? Is that burnt valve seals or ? I suppose you could have a cracked cylinder wall, that is the only other thing it could be! (I think). Isn't there some kind of stuff you can put on metal that changes colors at cracks?

My fingers are crossed for ya!

[BLACKDOG]

Really?    Havent heard that one.  THanks fatboy, I'll ask Bob, the head guru, and see what he says too.  Not that I am doubting your advice or anything.  I appreciate all the help

Brandon, I dunno, mabye someone else on here does?     Id like to try it if there is.  I think I am getting the heads tommorow

[FATB0Y]

I had the head done on my 89 put it 2 gether ran great for about a year and it blew another gasket and a called a mechanic friend of mine and he ask me "did ya change the head bolts" I said "NO why?" Because they stretch then when ya torque them down the bolt bottoms out and it appears to be tight. I said "oh " Just my 

[Brandon]

I replaced em when I did mine on my 5.0 but never when I did it on my 4 banger. It's worth checking the price on but..

[BLACKDOG]

prolly a stupid question, but what is my block made out of?  I'm trying to find a compund like what you were talking about brandon, and im finding some that are metal specific 

[Brandon]

mild steel, err steel anyway

[BLACKDOG]

I'm not finding anything specific on a dye to see if there is a crack in the block.  Is there anyone on here that Knows the name of what I am looking for??  I would really appreciate it.

[Willy Mammoth]

weak chambers? Is that burnt valve seals or ? I suppose you could have a cracked cylinder wall, that is the only other thing it could be! (I think). Isn't there some kind of stuff you can put on metal that changes colors at cracks?

My fingers are crossed for ya!

There is a test kit that uses a blue liquid in a pump that takes air off the top of the radiator and if there is carbon monoxide present it turns yellow. All that will tell you is that you have a blown head gasket or a cracked block. That is somthing you already know. Have you put it back together yet? And are you still having problems?

[Willy Mammoth]

I don't know that engine, but maybe there is somthing I can think of that you haven't checked yet. Does this engine have an oil cooler around the oil filter. I have heard of them rupturing and transfering coolant into the oil and oil into the coolant? I'm still thinkling,but dinner is ready so "I'll be back"

[FATB0Y]

I'm not finding anything specific on a dye to see if there is a crack in the block. Is there anyone on here that Knows the name of what I am looking for?? I would really appreciate it.

I know what U R talking about but give me a few and I'll see if I can find out what the name of it is

[FATB0Y]

hey I found this ...

Art's Automotive Machine Shop Services

page under construction

Valve Seat grinding:

We charge 0.25 labor hours to grind each valve seat. The valve seats are steel inserts pressed into the aluminum head. The seat to valve contact angle is cut to 45 degrees. The width and contact position on the valve are usually adjusted with a 60 degree "throat" cutter and a 30 degree "top" cutter. Some cars use different angles; we always follow the manufacturer's orignial specs when grinding the seats. The attention given to getting the seat cut to match the manufacturer's specifications exactly will have a direct effect on how long the rebuild will last. Our machinist Sandor has the necessary experience and the commitment to quality to ensure your rebuilt head will perform similarly to your original head.
 
Valve Grinding:

We charge 0.1 labor hour to grind a valve. Most new valves cost between $15 and $35 each. On a 16 valve head, grinding instead of replacing could save you as much as $475. It still makes sense to grind whenever possible. Many valves found in newer cars are tiny, and don't have much of a margin. We only grind valves when the manufacturer says it's an acceptable procedure and we always thoroughly inspect the valve for wear before machining and maintain the manufacturers minimum margin specification. For those of you looking at the picture and thinking, "Wow, that looks like an old valve grinder!", you're right. But old does not equal bad. This is a very well built Snap On unit and works as well today as it did when it was new. We also have reducing collets and can machine valves with stems as thin as 4mm.
 
Cylinder head resurfacing

We charge 1 labor hour to surface a cylinder head. We use a platen grinder surfacer for cylinder heads. It uses an 80 grit Silicon-Carbide belt to grind the cylinder flat. Since this is a "dry" machine with no circulating coolant / lubricant, we coat the belt with Goodson's Grind Aid. This has improved the surface finish we obtain. This type of surfacing is all most heads need. However, some applications use MLS (Multi-Layered-Steel) gaskets which require a very smooth surface finish. For those heads we follow platen grinding with lapping to obtain a surface as smooth as original. Some heads, like V6 heads with an angled intake manifold sealing surface, need to be milled instead of ground. We do not do in-house milling, so if your head needs milling, we will sublet the surfacing to a machine shop we trust.




Cylinder head Lapping

We charge 0.5 labor hour to lap a cylinder head following surfacing. Engines with MLS gaskets require very low RMS finishes to seal properly. Since 80 grit is the finest belt currently made for platen grinders, we use a granite surface plate (a precision machined slab of granite, ground to .00001" of perfectly flat, orignially intended as a base for measuring). We smear some lapping compoud on the plate and then slide the cylinder head in a figure eight pattern until the surface finish is very smooth. We were orignally concerned that this technique would create a convex surface on the cylinder head. However, we've found no measureable change in the flatness of the cylinder heads we've done so far and no measurable wear is evident on the plate itself. This technique is physically tiring, but produces a beautifull finish.
 
Valve guide replacement:

We charge $20.50 to replace each valve guide + the cost of the part. If the valve guide to valve stem clearance is excessive it causes two problems: one, the valve seat can not be cut concentric and two, the engine will consume more oil than necessary. The condition of the valve guides can not be known until cylinder head is out of the car and the guides are measured. This means when we find worn guide, we need to call for additional authorization to replace the guides. When guides are worn, it's usually the exhaust guides because the exhaust valves run at a much higher temperature.
 
Valve guide reaming:

This is included with the price of valve guide replacement. The new valve guide must be sized to obtain the manufacturer's specified oil clearance. This is done by measuring the valve stem, adding the oil clearance spec., and using a sized reamer to cut the guide to size.
 
Penetrant Dye Crack Checking

We charge $82 for penetrant dye crack checking a cylinder head. This includes hot tanking and cleaning the cylinder head prior to the check. The first step is to clean the cylinder head. Care must be taken to prevent covering cracks by wire brushing. Aluminum is a fairly soft metal and a vigorous brushing can actually cover cracks, making them undetectable with dye. Next a penetrating dye is sprayed on the area to be checked and allowed to soak in for 5 minutes or so. After soaking all of the dye is wiped off using shop towels. Once the head is cleaned, a developer is sprayed on. Cracks will show up as red lines. Just going though the motions of a penetrant dye test does not guarantee you'll find a crack. The key to success is very careful inspection. The dye is just a tool that makes finding cracks a little easier. The real way cracks are found is through the thoroughness and experience of the person doing the test, not the test itself.

I'm still looking for the name.

[FATB0Y]

here ya go Black dog hope this is what your lookin for             http://www.flexbar.com/PDF/10.pdf

[Willy Mammoth]

I just went through the whole thread and I am curious did you roll the old head gasket to see if the steel ring was cracking? This usuly happens when a gasket goes. It splits causing it to leak. The other thing is what gaskets did you buy Toyota I hope this time. I have never had any luch with aftermarket gaskets unless they were Fel Pro.

You are getting water on top of the pistons and water in the oil. What about oil in the water? Did you ever over heat this engine or have a hard freeze that may have caused a problem.  What gets me is the clean pistons, this would only be from burning water so it would have to be some were in the intake runner to those cyls, head gasket, head, or crack / pin hole in the cly. I would put it back together this time and see what happens. If you have anymore trouble don't waist anymore time or money on this engine. 187K is plenty, look at a remanufactured long block or buy a low mile used engine.

This does suck and I hate to see you suffer. Cut your losses after this try.

[BLACKDOG]

Thanks fatboy and Mr. willy   Appreciate all the help.  Hopefully all my problems are fixed and I dont have to worry about it anymore.  If I keep having the problems, I am gonna be looking for a new(er) engine. I've already got a place to go, has totalled trucks that they part out.  There wasnt any oil in the water that I could noticed, but chances are, I looked in the wrong place   engine never overheated, and the only time it was ever in a place cold enough for it to freeze was over new years in Reno, but there wasnt a drastic freeze, it was the normal 20-27 degrees or so.  Iwas there for three nights, but before I left I made sure that I had the right amount off antifreeze and the right kind in the truck.  It never had any problems until 2 weeks ago.

I'm not sure what you mean by rolling the old head gasket??  the guy at the machine shop did show me where water had gotten by the head gasket, he was pretty much of the thought that the head needed resurfacing    But like I said, this is the first time I've done something like this, so I am learning the entire time

[Willy Mammoth]

I'm not sure what you mean by rolling the old head gasket??

If you bend the gasket a little from one end to the other and you see the steal rings around the cyls split then the gasket was defo bad.  Dosen't matter at this point other than to know the gaskets were the problem.

Good luck man

[BLACKDOG]

Alright, got my heads back today.  bob at the machine shop said that there was no reasno to have the heads resurfaced, that they were straight, I was hopig that they would need it, so that could be the obvious problem    Anyway, tommorow the engine gets put back together, and we'll see what happens   Everyone cross your fingers, I am extremely nervous as to what is goign to happen.  Hopefully it all runs fine.  I do have a question though, bob at the shop gave me a torque guide for the heads.  I dunno if the pattern is the same, but the ftlbs are completely different than the ones in the chilton manual.  Which ones do I go by??    the torque manual said to torque them in stages to 33ft lbs, but the shiltons says 40ft lbs.  both say 2 90* turns on top of the torquing, but which measurement do I use?   

[FATB0Y]

I would go by what the mechanic said