Topic: :)bestgen4runner's build page.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

That's what I'm getting at, he will not get the 5" of up travel he was anticipating with the shackles like that.

I am saying i ran a similar set up as him and it was great had about 5 inches of up travel

[Willard]

I guess he will have to test flex it. I don't see him getting that much up travel without negative arching the springs. But that is the difference I have no factual evidence on the springs yet. Time will tell.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

You are going to limit your up travel with an angle like that. The springs will be flat or you will run out of shackle before you get any good up travel. And when you limit it like that you will gain body roll due to the limited up travel. Just what I'm gathering from what I see. Are you HP diff in the front?

HP with ARB inside

[toyodaaddict]

Now I follow You. I can't really say for sure as they came installed on the truck.
I would guess 2 wheel drive?
I need to get a new set of 63s and give them a try.
Can anyone make a recommendation of what year and size truck to get them from. toyodaaddict?
You seem to have the most experience with them. Point Me in a good direction. 3/4 ton 4x4?
What kind of shackle angle do You have with the 63s You have setup?

The 3 +overload springs on my DD (1984) and blue first gen are 1/2 ton, 2wd. I recall one set came from an extended cab truck. I don't know if there is any spring rate difference vs standard cab.   The 4 +overload springs on the  86 4runner came from a 1/2 ton, 4wd.   The 3 +overload chevy's I originally had on the  86 4runner came off a beat, parts truck, 85 4runner, that had been wheeled/abused without bump stops for a long time. That may be why they seemed soft but they still cleared the 35's fine. I haven't used 3/4 ton springs but if they are 4 +overload they are probably GTG. Possibly with a little more lift/spring rate?

Budget usually has a pretty good selection of Chevy's to choose from. You want to look at the 88 through I think 98 trucks.

I will add that for 37's all of my chevy 63 setups would likely require a minor bit of fender trimming or limiting up travel just a little.

My angle finder got broke, so I cant get the shackle angle right now. I'll try to come up with something
 

[mudmaster]

My angle finder got broke, so I cant get the shackle angle right now. I'll try to come up with something

Use a phone app.

[toyodaaddict]

Use a phone app.

I got a hold of a HF angle finder. 5" shackle, Roughly 34* from vertical,  tuck unloaded. This is on my DD. I can't check the other trucks until tomorrow.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

This is good stuff!

Leaf spring tech:

Contrary to popular belief there are right and wrong ways to setup and run leaf springs. A large benefit to links is that people who have found this forum actually take the time and pay attention to how they are setting them up because they think they have to, and they should. The same could and should also be said for leaf springs. Yes, they are old and antiquated technology, but for a weekend warrior trail rig (not hill shooter, big rock hammers-type rigs, or 450+ hp rigs) that see a fair amount of street, carrying varying loads; leaf springs are a VERY viable option. They can be setup to carry loads, go fast or anything in between. Here's the culmination of what I have learned about leaf springs over the last 13 years that I have been wheeling and building my own rigs (there's been several). Many will skip it because links rule, but for those running leafs that have issues with ride, etc. please read and then take another look at your rig and break out the tape measure. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind, just provide solutions for those that have decided to run leaves and want to get the most out of them.

Spring Selection: This is the most critical component of your leaf sprung setup. Your spring selection will determine the amount of potential travel, axle location, f/r pin offset, spring rate, and anti-wrap factors. I have tried several junkyard packs, off the shelf aftermarket packs, hybrid packs and custom packs. There is no substitute for a custom pack. Yes, you will pay for it, but the benefits will much more closely mirror the setup and tuning of a linked suspension where you pick your spring weight based on your actual weigh, locate your axle where you want it, and choose your link lengths. A custom pack will fit your rig and you can notice a difference.
1. Spring length: Spring length is a large factor in determining wheel travel. Same as links, a longer leaf will allow more usable travel; travel before the path of travel causes funny things with pinion angle. Primarily, the end of the leaf attached to the frame mount is what determines this. This end is usually the longer end of the spring. The short end of the spring can affect approach/ departure angles and plays a minimal role in overall travel. A super short spring end can cause some funny wrap characteristics.
2. Spring rate: Just as you would take the time to weigh, calculate or reference your vehicle weight before ordering coilover springs; the same should be done for leafs. For a run of the mill, common trail rig there are good options from vendors that will match popular spring lengths and rates. All Pro, Marlin and TG all offer springs with enable identical lengths and spring rates that work well for pickups and 4runners. The same can be said with rubicon express leafs for jeep models. If you've gone out of your way to shed weight, add weight or desire something different a custom spring should seriously be considered. Deaver and Alcan both build custom springs for those interested.
3. Spring arch: Aside from providing lift, leaf spring arch also affects rebound (similar to pre-load on a coilover) and up travel. The more free arch a spring has, the faster your rebound will be and there will be more potential for up travel. When considering rebound, a great analogy is that of a pinball machine. The more you compress the spring on the plunger, the harder and faster it will hit the pinball. Free arch is the natural state of a leaf spring. in this state the spring has zero potential energy. The more the spring is compressed, the more energy the spring will carry and exert when unloaded, propelling the axle down and away from the vehicle. This is beneficial in go fast scenarios. Most leaf springs and springs with free arch do not like being bent too much beyond flat (negative arch). For most, your up travel will be limited at the point that your spring goes 1-2" negative. The more arch available at ride height, the more potential up travel your suspension will have. Clearance issues will still exist with steering components etc, just as they do with a linked suspension, when trying to maximize up travel with a minimal ride height.
4. Wrap factors: manufacturers use different techniques to combat axle wrap, which is the primary draw back for a leaf spring used under extreme circumstances. Mil-wrap, double mil-wrap and special anti-wrap leaves are all popular means of limiting axle wrap. Mil-wraps also have an added benefit of being easier to trail fix after a main leaf failure. A nice progressive pack (many leaves, with each successive leaf being slightly longer/ shorter) also helps as there is a steady progression in which the leaves support each other as they are loaded.

Setup: Now that you've selected the right spring for your vehicle it's time to set them up under the rig. Improper setup can ruin the ride or function of even the best custom spring. Everything I outlined above, will come to play once it is time to setup your suspension.
1. Axle position: Just as you should when doing a link suspension, build at full bump. To do this with leaves, go ahead and disassemble the pack down to just the main leaf. Position your axle where you want it to rest at full bump.
2. Fixed hanger location: With your axle located at bump, the location of your fixed hanger will be equal to the distance from you center pin to the center of the spring eye ALONG THE ARCH OF THE SPRING. Front or rear axle, forward or rear shackle, it's all the same.
3. Shackle orientation: In the case of a front axle, there are some further considerations as to which end of the spring you want to fix. The most popular method is to fix the front end of the spring. Popular thought is that this allows the axle to move backwards when it encounters bumps, yielding a better ride. For offroad applications this presents a few problems; under droop the axle will move away from transfer case. This requires a long-travel driveline. Slip lengths of 12"+ are not uncommon for the front axle of a leaf sprung rig. Long slip drivelines can be expensive, sloppy, and heavy. Another problem occurs when climbing. Under power, the axle will drive itself out from under the vehicle, unloading the suspension. This is counter-productive to the task of trying to climb as the axle will not pull any weight until the suspension limit has been reached. This can also require even longer drivelines to keep up with increased slip requirements while the axle is under power. A third problem occurs under compression situations. Under compression the axle moves rearward and towards the vehicle/ body. This can make building a low-slung rig even more challenging as it is possible for a tire to recede several inches towards and into the body during compression. Depending on your desired tire size, it may not be practical to move the axle far enough forward before you run out of frame to attach your spring hanger to. Earlier I spoke of popular thought concerning rear shackles on a front axle. I disagree with the blanket statement that a rear shackle rides better than a forward shackle. While wheel recession should not be discounted, a forward shackle suspension pivots from a rearward fixed location; just as nearly all front link suspensions do. These have been proven to be plenty fast, when setup properly. Forward shackle suspensions do not require a long slip driveline because the axle is pivoting from a fixed end near the transfer case (same as a link suspension). During climbing, the front axle will constantly be pulling forward, on the fixed end of the spring. It is also easier to build a low slung vehicle with a forward shackle because under compression, the axle will move away from the body. Yet another consideration in this particular debate deals with geometry. I once stumbled upon a reference that suggested that the shackled spring eye, should be located higher than the fixed eye, relative to the ground. I have not been able to track it down the last f year, but consider OEM applications. Nearly all are setup this way, on both front and rear suspensions (with the exception of Toyota mini truck front axles). It is much more easy and practical to achieve this geometry with a forward shackle setup on a front suspension.
4. Shackle length: all too often shackles are looked at as a means of providing or reducing lift. Even in this thread, the OP mentioned "I'll just run shorter shackles to lower it." A shackle is designed to allow the spring to move freely from it's free arch state to it's flat length state. With this in mind, it should make sense that the shackle length should be equal to this amount of travel. To figure this out, measure the flat length of your springs from eye to eye (along the arch) then measure the straight line distance between your spring eyes, with the springs at free arch. Subtract the free arch number from the flat length number and that will tell you how long of a shackle the springs need to allow the spring to move freely. Too short of a shackle will bind the spring prematurely and "short stroke" it (not allow full travel). Too long of a shackle will try to stretch the spring and will prematurely wear the bushings.
5. Leaf sliders: lately I've been building and trying to build with leaf sliders. The concept seems simple enough and they allow the spring to work independently of a shackle. This provides a nice and consistent spring rate. With a shackle, your spring is moving through yet another arch as it compresses and extends. As your shackle angle changes during this process, so does the amount of leverage that the shackle applies to the spring. This change affects your ultimate spring rate. A leaf slider does not do this as the spring simply moves forward and backwards as it compresses and extends. Sliders also do away with the inherent "lift" of non-tension shackles, common on Toyota mini trucks. I won't get into tension shackles because honestly, I've never had them.
6. Shackle location (flop the angle): You now know how long of a shackle you need, now where to put it? I'll once again refer to popular belief, in which there is an ideal shackle angle. This is a fallacy because the shackle angle at ride will vary based on the amount of free arch that a spring has and the amount of weight that the spring is supporting. There simply is no magic angle and simply trying to follow this idea could leave you with a poor ride or a shackle that inverts. Instead I want to once again refer to the mechanics of what your leaf spring and shackle are doing. The ultimate goal of this combination is to allow the spring to move freely from it's free arch state to it's flat length state. To properly locate the shackle end, we will now focus on the flat length of the spring. I use a simple formula to determine where to place my shackle hanger. I've posted this before several times in various threads. Take the flat length of your spring (eye to eye), subtract your shackle length (eye to eye) and then add 1/2." Why a 1/2?" Well, 1/2" accounts for bushing deflection under load. It has yet to provide me with any problems and if you are decent with maintenance, you should discover a blown-out bushing before it is truly problematic. The value from the equation above represents the distance from your fixed spring hanger that your shackle hanger should be. This combination will allow your spring to move freely as it cycles.
7. Bump stops and limit straps are for springs.... Not shocks: Say what? Popular belief once again is to limit your suspension travel to preent damaging your shocks. All too often people will buy too long of a shock because they are cool and some of those people even setup bump stops and limit straps to protect their shocks. What about the leaf spring? As I said earlier, leaf springs do not like to go too far past flat, nor do they like to be extended too far past their free state. When stretched, the leaves begin to fan out and pack deformation begins. Over compressing a spring will bend it, usually near the eye, where the progressive support ends. I set my bump stops to stop up travel at 2" past flat, I do the opposite for limit straps and set them 2-3" past unloaded (with axle weight) this allows for some downward articulation. A good, cheap bump stop can be found at the pnp in the rear of '94-99 s10 blazers and jimmy's. They are a timbren style stop the will fully compress and have a convenient single mounting hole/ bolt.
8. Shocks: Just as many do with a link suspension, I recommend buying a quality rebuildable and tunable shock of your choice to maximize the performance of your suspension. I do advise buying a shock that is slightly longer than your suspension travel so that you can mount them to have 1" extra travel in each direction, from the limits of your suspension.

I hope for those that suffered through the long read that they found something useful.

[blackdiamond]

So, are you going with a shackle relocation to the front?

[blackdiamond]

So, are you going with a shackle relocation to the front?

In all seriousness, I think back to your experience on Roller Coaster Hill on the Behind the Rocks Trail where I think you ended up having to air up your rear tires a bit to minimize the squat the the rear that was putting your 4Runner at a steep enough angle you couldn’t get the front tires to bite. You leaf spring tech post further explained what was happening with your soft and long front springs allowing the front axle to walk forward and lifting the front end even more.  Suspension travel is useful, but springs that are too soft can lead to poor performance as well. All things in moderation...

[Rockcrawlintoy]

In all seriousness, I think back to your experience on Roller Coaster Hill on the Behind the Rocks Trail where I think you ended up having to air up your rear tires a bit to minimize the squat the the rear that was putting your 4Runner at a steep enough angle you couldn’t get the front tires to bite. You leaf spring tech post further explained what was happening with your soft and long front springs allowing the front axle to walk forward and lifting the front end even more.  Suspension travel is useful, but springs that are too soft can lead to poor performance as well. All things in moderation...

Could always use the winch on the front axle to suck the front down so that doesn’t happen

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

This is old news. Those springs are sitting on the shop floor now.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

Email to Sky
Q&A

I need some info on bump stop placement. Currently I have about 5” between the frame and the flip kit ubolt plate.
The springs sit close to flat at resting position? Is that normal?

Yes these are very flat minimal lift springs, some of the lift comes from the pack thickness as well.

Can I allow these springs to go negative with out fear of damaging the springs?

2-2.5" is the max you should invert a spring, without shortening the life expectancy. In some dimension far away I could probably build a graph on how much more you can go and the actual life span loss, but over a period of 5 years my purple/yellow runner with 3.5" uptravel only suffered a small loss<1" of height.

If not I think I have very little up travel?
I placed the Left front on a 10” block and only see body roll as apposed to up travel?

Splitting front and rear your not going to see much movement at 10". Depending on what springs your running in the rear they might be too soft and not working the front much at that small of displacement.


Just keeping you in the loop, sharing what I find, and trying to do things correctly.
Thanks,
Chris

[blackdiamond]

This is old news. Those springs are sitting on the shop floor now.

I was simply showing that I had read the long leaf spring tech post and was applying it to a real world situation that we both experienced in person.  I learned a few things so thanks.

In your communication with Sky it was brought out that there's a balance needed between front and rear springs as well.  My old 85 truck had almost no suspension travel in the rear springs when I ran the Superlift 4.5" springs.  It was stable and climbed well in Moab, but when the suspension travel in the front was maxed out body roll was the next step and if the rear axle was the one on the off camber spot it was all body roll.  Things were improved when I went to an Alcan setup in the rear (even with a small block) because they actually had some travel in them.  My 4Runner is really pretty close to 50/50 which is much better.

It'll be interesting to see how your 4Runner performs with the Sky front and 63s in the rear vs. what you had before.  This might be a good reason to explore the new rear spring from Sky as it could be a much better match for the front springs.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

"2-2.5" is the max you should invert a spring, without shortening the life expectancy." 
Ahhhh, I was on to something, they do over extend...

[blackdiamond]

liveoak

front shackles not boomerang 3 7/8
frame to ground at door center 23 1/2

I'm sure you understand this, but for clarification since the distinction has come up several times...

Boomerang shackles can provide some additional travel if there's something on the frame that would interfere with a straight shackle, but for the purposes of measurements a straight shackle or boomerang shackle should simply be measured from hole to hole as that's the functional length of the part.

I may get some measurements this weekend, but this week at work has been nuts from being gone for 6 working days and then having half of my crew gone this week.  I've also been too sleepy in the evenings to even look at the 4Runner.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

liveoak
finally got a day off to measure. remember my 4runner is an 85 (an actual bestgen) and I still have stock perches so it's a good reference to stock.
I have some all pro front springs and 35s. rear springs are 97-2004 all pro taco expedition rear springs with 6 3/8 shackles and an add a-leaf
I need longer front springs as my shackle angle is too vertical which is why i'm interested in seeing the sky ruf

front hanger center to rear hanger center 44 1/2
center front perch to bottom of frame 2 1/2
front shackles not boomerang 3 7/8
frame to ground at door center 23 1/2

Thank you LO
We just need black diamond and old red for a complete list.
Come on guys.
And yes Yours is a true unicorn LO anyone who has seen it in person would say so.
Are You fenders cut at all?

[blackdiamond]

"2-2.5" is the max you should invert a spring, without shortening the life expectancy." 
Ahhhh, I was on to something, they do over extend...

I thought the idea behind this springs was to keep it low which would mean minimal up travel would possible/needed, but it appears that he's sitting at a ride height similar to mine but may have way less up travel available in the springs.  I suspect that his shackle mount is most likely located pretty close to where everyone puts them which would indicate that something is up (pardon the pun) with his hanger if his ride height is more than expected.  It's going to be interesting...

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

"2-2.5" is the max you should invert a spring, without shortening the life expectancy." 
Ahhhh, I was on to something, they do over extend...

This is their recommendation for their springs not everyone’s leaf springs.
Call Alcan for us Jesse and post what they say so We can compare.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

I thought the idea behind this springs was to keep it low which would mean minimal up travel would possible/needed, but it appears that he's sitting at a ride height similar to mine but may have way less up travel available in the springs.  I suspect that his shackle mount is most likely located pretty close to where everyone puts them which would indicate that something is up (pardon the pun) with his hanger if his ride height is more than expected.  It's going to be interesting...

I was commenting on his complaint of minimal up travel from yesterday shout box talk. I thought his new ride height was satisfactory?  But maybe if he gets there low profile front mount, pushing spring back, also causing shackles to flatten would lower it too. just like you say...

edit: ...mounting low profile mount flush with frame like sqwadoosh said...

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

Just got off the phone with Alcan. Ill do my best to explain. He said its mainly about the speed in which you flex the spring.  He said if you are jumping your truck or hitting rocks hard or slamming curbs and hyper extended the spring then all bets are off.  He said if you are just out rock crawling and over extended the springs slowly (no more than an 1-2") they should last fine, but he cant warranty a spring if you bash on them.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

I have not cut my fenders, I like the stock look and shape.

Me too, cutting would be a last resort.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

Update from Yesterday
Here's a few pictures I took.
Love how My shock angle is still good. So happy I don't have to cut off and replace My shock hoops.
I ended up with 5 1/4 shock shaft showing at resting position. This comes out to 43%, assuming that the springs come down a small bit after being used for a while this should put Me in a perfect location. Ideal location being 39%.
I am using My rear Bilstein 12" 5125s now in the front. Unsure of what will go in the rear after It gets lowered.
Ruff stuff 5/8 rear short ubolts are ordered and on the way. Looking forward to the rear block removal.
Replaced My left side u-bolts but was unable to replace the right side due to receiving two shorts instead on one long and one short. E at Sky caught it before Me and shipped it out the next day. I should receive it today. 
The bump stops pictured are from a 2nd gen Tacoma rear stock application. They work perfect and I have piles of them sitting around. If anyone needs a set let Me know and I would be happy to hook You up. 
Bump stops are now welded in place, not installing the plate potion until I get to see exactly where they will line up with the frame at full stuff and until the rear is lowered. Might have to lower the front more to match the new rear height. Lastly, I did an experiment to see if the front will up travel before the rear stuffs the tire and E was exactly correct the rear is so soft that the front moves up very little due to the rear springs. I have emailed Him to get more info on the Rear spring kit He mentioned to me before. We will see what He has to say. Might be going a different direction in the rear, or maybe just stiffen up My 63's just a little bit. 

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

My Email to E at Sky,

Ok tell Me more about this rear spring option You mentioned. I am interested. Details? Requirements?
Also can You send Me a few pictures of Your truck with the 3f springs installed. Please.
I checked out what You said about up travel Vs the rear springs compression. You are 100% correct.
Looks Like I will need to stiffen up the rear 63s (3 Leaf) or look into another options.


His Reply,

I just cut everything off of the frame, i was going to try a set of rear springs we had made that are shorter than the chevy 63's that are currently on Justin Reece's 4619 stock class ultra 4 2nd gen toyota.  I want to see how they sit with the 3f's to figure out what its going to take to make them level so we can offer a rear spring.  My 3f's are temporarily in there as far as the front hanger goes because i will be switching to 31.5" spring center with my new 8" wider front axle.  I don't have bumps in there yet because i will possible be using air bumps.

 These rear leaf springs are set up for the factory toyota spring bushing that yields an 18mm bolt, I am using our toyota leaf spring hanger kit to install them.

E

[blackdiamond]

My Email to E at Sky,

Ok tell Me more about this rear spring option You mentioned. I am interested. Details? Requirements?
Also can You send Me a few pictures of Your truck with the 3f springs installed. Please.
I checked out what You said about up travel Vs the rear springs compression. You are 100% correct.
Looks Like I will need to stiffen up the rear 63s (3 Leaf) or look into another options.


His Reply,

I just cut everything off of the frame, i was going to try a set of rear springs we had made that are shorter than the chevy 63's that are currently on Justin Reece's 4619 stock class ultra 4 2nd gen toyota.  I want to see how they sit with the 3f's to figure out what its going to take to make them level so we can offer a rear spring.  My 3f's are temporarily in there as far as the front hanger goes because i will be switching to 31.5" spring center with my new 8" wider front axle.  I don't have bumps in there yet because i will possible be using air bumps.

 These rear leaf springs are set up for the factory toyota spring bushing that yields an 18mm bolt, I am using our toyota leaf spring hanger kit to install them.

E

Does Sky have a standard rear spring that would match the lift height of the 3F front springs?

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

Does Sky have a standard rear spring that would match the lift height of the 3F front springs?

Currently they do Not. In the works.
They recommend the Chevy 63s at this time with their installation kit.
I think I missed My chance to get in on the experiment with the matching set from Justin Reece's 4619 stock class ultra 4 Truck.

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

The replacement ubolt showed up from Sky today as planned. Carson and I slapped in both new right side front ubolts.
Front is now complete with the exception of moving the steering box and final placement of bump stop plates.

[Rockcrawlintoy]

When is the shakedown run

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

When is the shakedown run

June 30th at Reiter foothills, Unless something changes. Still plenty of things to do and parts to be ordered and I still have the  4.7s to install after the suspension is completed.

[OVRAROK]

June 30th at Reiter foothills, Unless something changes. Still plenty of things to do and parts to be ordered and I still have the  4.7s to install after the suspension is completed.

Please tell me the 4.7s are Marlin crawlers

[:)bestgen4runner [OP]]

Please tell me the 4.7s are Marlin crawlers

Yes Sir, I gave My Girl SqWaDoosh the option to get TG or Marlin as it's part of a Bro deal and I wanted it to be up to Him.
He Said "I am getting You marlin, Period"
He is a salty b*std but also a very good friend with sidekick potential. 
Thank You Andrew.